Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[MariaR]

Let it also be known I do not believe this mason bs but for now I can't do anything to victor.

[Sotty7]

Convinced one of my critical town reads is way wrong, don't think it is BV. Thinking Rask and/or potentially GM. Not interested a Hoopla vote, I feel like too many people are saying they don't like her with no one actually putting their vote were their mouth is. Makes me think scum is behind that whole underground bubbling. Perhpas IAI, but I ended up agreeing with most of what he said when he got active yesterday.

Vote: Rask

The counterwagon that was derailed by his unvote. The tiptoeing around Grey at the end of the day. The going back and forth on Victor. The disappearing when he became the default town read.

[Sotty7]

With TwoFace now being confirmed as town, I think it's worth bringing up sotty-scum again. Yeah, the wagon stalled yesterday, but looking back at that, it's odd that there were two townies (myself and TwoFace) hanging out on that wagon for a good portion of the day, but the wagon failed to gain much traction past that. Neither TwoFace or I were ever really universally townread, so, if sotty were town, it would be a strong opportunity for scum to push that wagon and then let the blame fall on TwoFace, or, more likely, me.

VOTE: Sotty7

At the same time, I could definitely go for an IAI wagon as well.

PEdit: Well what do you know, someone else would like a sotty wagon.

The fact you think that no one fancies a wagon on me is ridiculous. Nearly everyone in the game has positioned themselves to vote for me at some point today. I fully expect to be one of the major centers of attention, especially now with that kill.

What are your reasons for wanting a IAI wagon?

[Sotty7]

Let it also be known I do not believe this mason bs but for now I can't do anything to victor.

This can stop right now. We're not lynching Victor today, no matter how anyone feels about the mason claim. I don't have the patience for anyone floating the "scum fake claim masons all the time" theroy. It's bullshit.

[MariaR]

Let it also be known I do not believe this mason bs but for now I can't do anything to victor.

This can stop right now. We're not lynching Victor today, no matter how anyone feels about the mason claim. I don't have the patience for anyone floating the "scum fake claim masons all the time" theroy. It's bullshit.

Who said anything about lynching him.

[BlackVoid]

Okay. Here's my problem. You had three major scumreads on D1:

#1 GreyICE/BBT who you voted on page five. As it turns out, a viable wagon developed on that slot, you kept your vote there and pushed until he got lynched. I never got the impression that you were actually trying to read him or wonder if you may be wrong. If you were so sure, it's doubly concerning that you never once suspect anyone that was trying to derail the wagon (Rask and MariaR come to mind).

#2 TwoFace who was obvtown but suspected you so you reacted by suspecting him back.

#3 Jaack - same deal although he wasn't as obvtown.

Your suspicions are based simply around whoever pushes you. Two of them flipped town and my bets are on Jaack being town as well. Your reads have fluctuated a small amount but for the most part have been fairly static. So far, I haven't found any of your reads to be compelling or insightful.

[MariaR]

Quote where I said I sr BBT or Twoface

[BlackVoid]

The above post was at Sotty7.

[MariaR]

Ohhh okie.

[Jaack]

The fact you think that no one fancies a wagon on me is ridiculous. Nearly everyone in the game has positioned themselves to vote for me at some point today. I fully expect to be one of the major centers of attention, especially now with that kill.

What are your reasons for wanting a IAI wagon?

I'm not talking about the difficulty of starting a wagon on you now, but yesterday. While a lot of people may have suspected you, only TwoFace and I actually stuck with a vote on you for very long.

As for IAI, his D1 entrance was awful, with suspicions on two townies (GI and myself) who also just happened to have been the favorite wagons at the time. Oh and remember how everyone was starting to doubt their Hoopla townreads at the end of D1? Look at IAI's first scumread of the day (1133).

[Sotty7]

The GM ISO is better than I remembered. The only thing I really dislike is the ease she seems to be willing to join either the BBT wagon or my wagon but never actually ever does either. Her posts have a lot of content the early game posts about Twoface and Rask feel logical and as scum she could have opted to fan the flames with little blow back. I've spoken enough about the back and forth with her and Victor. The posts going and back with BV are decent as well. She can stay town

Still agree with a lot of IAI's posts yesterday as far as reads go. His start today feels a little shaky and stand offish. Waiting for myself and Hoopla to post reads before getting stuck in is really the only thing that gives me pause.

[Sotty7]

Okay. Here's my problem. You had three major scumreads on D1:

#1 GreyICE/BBT who you voted on page five. As it turns out, a viable wagon developed on that slot, you kept your vote there and pushed until he got lynched. I never got the impression that you were actually trying to read him or wonder if you may be wrong. If you were so sure, it's doubly concerning that you never once suspect anyone that was trying to derail the wagon (Rask and MariaR come to mind).

#2 TwoFace who was obvtown but suspected you so you reacted by suspecting him back.

#3 Jaack - same deal although he wasn't as obvtown.

Your suspicions are based simply around whoever pushes you. Two of them flipped town and my bets are on Jaack being town as well. Your reads have fluctuated a small amount but for the most part have been fairly static. So far, I haven't found any of your reads to be compelling or insightful.

Nearly everyone has either expressed an interest in voting me, outright voted me or pushed me in this game. This is stretch on your part.

I didn't keep my vote on BBT. I moved it and pushed Twoface when it looked like BBT wasn't coming back, something I also got heat for. Twoface as "obvtown" is a big stretch, but clearly I was wrong there so I'm not going to argue. I disagree with having static reads. I am trying to reevaluate the game right now like anyone would do considering what happened yesterday.

[Sotty7]

The fact you think that no one fancies a wagon on me is ridiculous. Nearly everyone in the game has positioned themselves to vote for me at some point today. I fully expect to be one of the major centers of attention, especially now with that kill.

What are your reasons for wanting a IAI wagon?

I'm not talking about the difficulty of starting a wagon on you now, but yesterday. While a lot of people may have suspected you, only TwoFace and I actually stuck with a vote on you for very long.

As for IAI, his D1 entrance was awful, with suspicions on two townies (GI and myself) who also just happened to have been the favorite wagons at the time. Oh and remember how everyone was starting to doubt their Hoopla townreads at the end of D1? Look at IAI's first scumread of the day (1133).

Your IAI points are solid.

What do you think of just how long it took to actually lynch Grey yesterday?

[Sotty7]

I could also see scum in Cloud and/or Creature

[BlackVoid]

@Sotty7, I'm not saying you didn't attract widespread suspicion. But TwoFace and Jaack were the ones who were pushing you the hardest, and also the ones who were simply not considering any other option or second-guessing themselves. Those are the kinds of players I

love

to push as scum. Because the others, they might change their reads, and be manipulable.

You did take a brief detour onto TwoFace before coming back to BBT, that's true. That doesn't take away from my point that most of your D1 play was you pushing BBT/GreyICE. GreyICE was towntelling hard at the end of the day. How didn't you notice that? There were times where I almost wanted to unvote.

I don't understand why you are giving MariaR a pass, at all. Is she a townread and why?

[Sotty7]

Go back and check who pushed on who first when it comes to me v Twoface. Also forcing your scum meta on me doesn't work since I'm not you.

You did take a brief detour onto TwoFace before coming back to BBT, that's true. That doesn't take away from my point that most of your D1 play was you pushing BBT/GreyICE. GreyICE was towntelling hard at the end of the day. How didn't you notice that? There were times where I almost wanted to unvote.

But you didn't did you? There comes a point in the game were a lynch has to be forced through. I was happy enough with my scum read of Grey to stay committed. When he first came in I was willing to give him time, Hoopla's unvote provided him that. Grey then proceeded to put a vote on Victor despite what looked to me, like an attempt to warm the town up to a Jaack wagon. It didn't add up, so I was happy to follow through, even more so when all the talk of a counter wagon produced Victor votes. I will take my share of the responsibility for the Grey lynch, I won't deny that I was key in getting him lynched, but don't sit there and tell me he townslipped and how I didn't see it when you where the L-1 vote.

Maria's a weak town read, based on her tone and interactions with Jaack. You're welcome to convince me that I am wrong.

What do you think about my Rask vote? I noticed you didn't say anything about it yet.

[BlackVoid]

Alright, let's talk about MariaR. Give me more than "tone and interactions with Jaack." You said the same thing in 902 ("interactions with Jaack and general tone"). What does that really mean? You are going to have to dumb this down for me a bit because it's apparently going over my head.

I think she's scum because of how she reacted to the GreyICE wagon. She never stated a townread on GreyICE. She never stated a strong scumread elsewhere. Just kept going "why isn't anyone bothered by the lack of counterwagon?" Then a Victor wagon comes up and she joins it. It looked like she knew GreyICE was town and was looking to cast doubt on the wagoners by creating artificial "resistance" to the wagon so that the ones of the wagon will push it harder. I touched on this earlier and you agreed with me in 916. Did anything change since then? I think she wanted to set up two town counterwagons so that she has a target for D2 as well.

I don't disagree with anything you said about Rask actually. I want to see where that goes. There were a couple of small things I thought looked town like him telling MariaR that Jaack is town if he dies but nothing that rules him out as scum for me.

[Jaack]

Your IAI points are solid.

What do you think of just how long it took to actually lynch Grey yesterday?

My inclination is that the wagon was stalled because there simply wasn't enough town support for it to end the day, but the town off the wagon was too fractured to come up a viable alternative. I mean, the best we could do was victor, and I'll admit I was never all that gung ho about a victor wagon, just that he was a far better choice than GreyIce.

Of course, I'm not all that thrilled with this conclusion. Why do you think it took so long?

----
Since he seems to be a popular point of discusion, I'll chime in on Rask.

The two primary concerns people seem to have with rask are that he disappeared when he was getting universally townread and that he was waffling around at the end of the day. The first reason I totally get, but the second reason seems a bit off to me. If we believe victor's claim then there's no reason for scumrask to waffle between them to the extent that he did - the day would end in a mislynch either way. And in general, his waffling at the end of the day feels more town to me than not, but the above reason is the only concrete one I really have.

[Sotty7]

Okay we can come back to Rask later.

Alright, let's talk about MariaR. Give me more than "tone and interactions with Jaack." You said the same thing in 902 ("interactions with Jaack and general tone"). What does that really mean? You are going to have to dumb this down for me a bit because it's apparently going over my head.

There are a ton of different play styles on mafiascum and a lot of them are very different to mine and what I would consider "optimal" play. Doesn't mean their way of play is any better or worse than mine, just means I need to try and read based of how they play, not how I would want or expect them to play.

With that in mind, Maria comes across as a very fluid type of player. I haven't played with her before and I am not very good at reading this style of play which is why it took me so long to commit to a read of her. Maybe it helped that she was pushing and voting for one of my scum reads at the time Jaack. I felt like Jaack's panic to the vote was disproportionate to the pressure coming from Maria. It felt like she voted him in an attempt to see if a wagon would start there and kick something going that wasn't Grey. It didn't kick off, I would say mostly because Grey didn't move his vote. Maybe I was reading too much into this since Maria never really claimed this was her plan, but that's how it looks to me looking in.

The tone thing is mostly a gut reaction. She feels relaxed and at ease which makes me think town more than scum. There is a lot of fluff in the ISO but there are also reads. She comments about the BBT wagon, on me, on Rask. The Sable vote was pretty bad, but the Jaack vote looks good to me and the Victor push makes sense if she was town reading Grey which is what it looked like at the end of the day.

Maria -

What's your read on Cloud? You two know each other pretty well by all accounts, does he lurk as scum?

[Sotty7]

Of course, I'm not all that thrilled with this conclusion. Why do you think it took so long?

I think we have some lurker scum. I just noticed that Creature didn't unvote Michel's initial BBT vote. Not sure what to make of that.

Creature what was your opinion on Grey v Victor?

[mhsmith0]

Votecount 2.01

Raskolnikov (1)

Sotty7 ,

goodmorning (1)

Raskolnikov ,

BlackVoid (1)

MariaR ,

I Am Innocent (1)

goodmorning ,

Sotty7 (2)

BlackVoid , Jaack ,

Not Voting (5)

Hoopla , Creature , VictorDeAngelo , CloudKicker , I Am Innocent ,

Day two deadline is Friday November 18, 1 PM PST. (expired on 2016-11-18 13:00:00)

With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch!

[/size]

[MariaR]

Alright, let's talk about MariaR. Give me more than "tone and interactions with Jaack." You said the same thing in 902 ("interactions with Jaack and general tone"). What does that really mean? You are going to have to dumb this down for me a bit because it's apparently going over my head.

I think she's scum because of how she reacted to the GreyICE wagon. She never stated a townread on GreyICE. She never stated a strong scumread elsewhere. Just kept going "why isn't anyone bothered by the lack of counterwagon?" Then a Victor wagon comes up and she joins it. It looked like she knew GreyICE was town and was looking to cast doubt on the wagoners by creating artificial "resistance" to the wagon so that the ones of the wagon will push it harder. I touched on this earlier and you agreed with me in 916. Did anything change since then? I think she wanted to set up two town counterwagons so that she has a target for D2 as well.

I don't disagree with anything you said about Rask actually. I want to see where that goes. There were a couple of small things I thought looked town like him telling MariaR that Jaack is town if he dies but nothing that rules him out as scum for me.

See this is BS you're talking my logic that I feel is pretty dam good logic and a good valid reason to talk about and turning it into something that is scummy? I was worried that there was no counter wagon so that's what made me not want to vote Ice and then a victor wagon shows up someone I was scumreading so I jumped on the wagon I don't see how that's a bad idea I wanted to start a wagon because the lack of one had me worried
If I jumped on a wagon I never had a sr on then I'd say that's a valid reason to sus me hell I would to but I did no such thing I want you to show me or talk more on how I knew grey was town
Of course I would've still went for victor if he didn't claim mason and grey died it's not like my sr would've gone away you're acting like it's scummy for me to keep pushing on someone

I feel like you're only play is to sr me because you know I've got you found out and this is a last ditch to go after me
Why are you voting Scotty over me from what I can tell you sr me more then scoty I think you're doing that just because you think scotty is an easier push then me

[MariaR]

Maria -

What's your read on Cloud? You two know each other pretty well by all accounts, does he lurk as scum?

Don't know first time playing with him on a forum game we play chat mafia not forum
his tone seems towny and the way he's acting seems towny from the chat games I play with him that's the majority of my tr

[CloudKicker]

I try to read but this is all over my head And sotty instead of pushing shades on the lurker maybe you should try to convince ppl why you aint scum.

[goodmorning]

I'd like to see Creature, goodmorning, and Cloud participate more today.

how the fuck am i supposed to participate more than i already have been???????

--

maria is totally town btw

not sure if i've said that already but it's true

--

I don't see why scum scotty kills Two face when two face was the main person going after Scotty it's way to obvious

there are multiple people on a scumteam tho

Not interested a Hoopla vote, I feel like too many people are saying they don't like her with no one actually putting their vote were their mouth is.

People only started to vaguescumread Hoopla late D1 when there would have been no point voting her and it is now early D2 with nearly everyone's top scumreads still alive and pushable.

What a terrible excuse to townread someone.

Let it also be known I do not believe this mason bs but for now I can't do anything to victor.

This can stop right now. We're not lynching Victor today, no matter how anyone feels about the mason claim. I don't have the patience for anyone floating the "scum fake claim masons all the time" theroy. It's bullshit.

Are you saying you think Scum don't fakeclaim Mason? Because I have a nice bridge to sell you.

--

so BV could actually maybe be scum???? this requires attention

also creature. whan i'm awake i'll probably get right on this