Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[TwoFace]

I mean I even gave you the summarized definition in my post above.

[Sotty7]

In a nutshell

You voted me for agreeing with the points victor made against me. Problem was victor made no points against me. So you thought you were sheeping/buddying victor and basically lying because when questioned about it was unable to provide these points you agreed with.

You voted me for not voting my scum reads, but I had just said I didn't have any scum reads.

Voting me for not voting is ploy to appear productive and look town but it's really not productive and doesn't make you look town.

you make a couple other posts that are easily made by scum meant to earn town points aka LAMIST

You're also trying to lynch bbt/grey who's obviously town and your reason for suspecting that slot from what I remember was weak.

You say I haven't given reads which is bullshit cause I've given the names of 4 people I think are scum. (More lying)

"Look at me I'm so town" is such a bullshit reason to suspect me. But I'm not going down this road again with you, I feel like I am yelling into the abyss

[Sotty7]

I mean I even gave you the summarized definition in my post above.

I couldn't get the context, plus I'm old. I'm only just getting used to "NAI"

[Sotty7]

Twoface, would you lynch Victor?

[TwoFace]

I have to relocate my mom tomorrow so will be fairly inactive. Doesn't seem to matter though cause town is content on mislynching.

[Hoopla]

That's a whole lot of words and yet none of them helpful

A bit like your time-wasting vote on Sotty.

[Hoopla]

I have to relocate my mom tomorrow so will be fairly inactive. Doesn't seem to matter though cause town is content on mislynching.

You should pick between Grey or Victor.

[TwoFace]

Twoface, would you lynch Victor?

I mean I think he's scum but you/him actually don't make sense since you were buddying him. I'd rather lynch you but to prevent a NL. Sure

[TwoFace]

That's a whole lot of words and yet none of them helpful

A bit like your time-wasting vote on Sotty.

Unfortunately voting scum is never a waste of time. You know that. You're buddies

[MariaR]

JOIN THE VICTOR WAGON WE HAVE COOKIES AND HARLEY QUINN

[TwoFace]

Look at me I'm so town" is such a bullshit reason to suspect me. But I'm not going down this road again with you, I feel like I am yelling into the abyss

So I'm right but for the wrong reasons? Gotcha

[Sotty7]

[TwoFace]

You should pick between Grey or Victor.

Don't want me to lynch your buddy? Gotcha

[TwoFace]

I'll get this sorted out eventually.

Have fun mislynching. Don't say I didn't at least try to stop
It.

[Hoopla]

You should pick between Grey or Victor.

Don't want me to lynch your buddy? Gotcha

Unless your role is a Septuple-Voter triggered by Time Wasting Sass and Delusions of Grandeur then that ain't happening...

[GreyICE]

Sorry friends, I'll save you time and claim. VT.

If you want to hammer do the decency of letting me do a last read through. If I get QHed, I maintain that it's Victor and IAI. I don't like how Victor wanted to specifically stop me from talking to Sableheart's replacement - obviously I can't talk to him about Sableheart's behavior, but you'd think he'd at least be interested in trying to scumread him, given that he is adamant that slots should produce content:

What's your proposal to deal with a slot that won't produce anything Victor? Lynch them? Hope they're town? Nah. IAI should be vigged tonight if we have one. Won't waste a lynch on him if have a vig shot.

Wait, let the slot produce some sort of content first.
If IAI is vigged N1 and flips town, what information do we get going forward? Compare that to if he lives to Day 2 when even if he doesn't produce content, people will have to take a stance on lynching him or not (which will provide some info after he dies).

Then again, he's probably just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

I'm going to be away for the rest of the evening, will get a chance to look at this tomorrow. Again, if I die, Victor and IAI.

[GreyICE]

Have you considered looking at this from another perspective, like that my D1 play may in fact be quite cool and good... and we just have different values? I like to move around my vote a lot, build wagons and then promote compromise early in the game because too often players won't relinquish ego and create stalemates that last until the eleventh hour and then suddenly any vote can be justified in a scramble. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the best/most alignment indicative stuff that happens on D1 happens post-claim, and you'll suddenly see the names in everyone's super solid

"ALRIGHT GUYS, THE SCUMTEAM IS X, Y AND EITHER Z OR J"

type posts change dramatically, and then again even more once we get flips.

You're under the delusion that you can solve the game D1 every game, whereas I value cohesion, compromise and securing an informative lynch that isn't just last minute scrambling. I think this is my best way to help the town instead of fooling myself I am nailing half the scumteam from spurious analysis. You are hyperbolic with the declaration of your reads whereas I value transparency about the strength of one's reads -- mine aren't strong at the moment, so I'm not going to pretend they are.

D1's are probably the main reason why I don't play much mafia any more, because reaching a compromise and organising a lynch on D1 is like pulling teeth, and it's laughable how many D1's follow this script. Arguing over inane shit all Day that gets thrown out the window after claims and flips isn't my modus operandi, and I'm confident the reason why you so frequently read me as scum when I'm town is largely due to playstyle differences. We haven't played together for years and I think I've become more radical in my beliefs (especially my D1 beliefs), and I also think your scummeta of me might be stale. I actually haven't been scum in two years and have no idea how I'd play it, so it beats me how you know my scumgame so well.

I don't know if this is a can of worms I want to open, and don't want to get into a big argument about this. This is just how I play, and hopefully you found something useful from this post either for this game or in the future. If you're town, I'd rather you spent your time doing a final reads post. Maybe try and pander to me and give me a top 2 or 3 in terms of sureness. I'll be more likely to follow your reads if you're honest about their strength and don't try and tell me the team is definitely X and five other players are defs town.

No sorry, this is fucking bullshit. You admit quite freely that your day 1 play is absolute crap, and you have yet to have anything resembling a compelling scumread day 1.

As for reading you as scum, it's the same way I did in the PYP game. You play with a cold logic. It is hard for me to read as town, but when the logical thoughts behind your posts don't add up then you're scum. It's as simple as that. At the moment, I think you read me as town, are aware that your reads are actually garbage, and are selling yourself that the cohesion is worth sacrificing a townie you might be wrong about. Am I scumreading that? Well you're knowingly voting someone you have a town read on. Sorry if it leaves me conflicted.

I'm sad to say I think you believe this. Whether or not that's a town tell... eh, we both know your post is alignment neutral. Suffice to say I believe that the chaos of day 1 is the heart of mafia - divining people's alignment based on their reactions. The power roles and stuff come in later and muddy things up, and I do love the clarity of a good flip (oh how I love it), but the heart is actually reading people.

If you're content to lynch me over Victor, I want you to come back after the game and think about the flips and which was right. Because he's scum and I'm town. So your way of play gets a townie lynch, mine? I'm organizing a wagon on scum. Which one plays to your win condition? At the moment I think mine does.

[Jaack]

With that said, it looks like BBT is play for today. Hopefully we can L-1 a wagon and get a claim to assess before getting too close to the deadline.

I agree with this. My biggest pet peeve in mafia is the amount of D1's that wait until the last 48 hours to compromise, leaving little time to analyse a claim, and often reducing the town to chaotic scrambling if that wagon dissipates.

Totally agree with this.

Alright, as much as I want to tear 588 apart, GM can wait.

[This is Jaack editing out the vote on BBT because I get anal about quoting votes and normally just cut them out but it's kind of important to the context of the blind quote]

I was reviewing various iso's and I ran across this victor post I don't like. While I understand not wanting to allow the day to dwindle down to deadline, this looks like an excuse not to deal with GM's post 588. It's not as if victor has gone all in on trying to lynch BBT/GI... he's been fine with touching on a wide variety of subjects.

I'm not overly enamored with the cases I've read regarding victor, but he's more likely to be scum than GI, and it doesn't look like sotty and IAI are going to be options at this point.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

[TwoFace]

You should pick between Grey or Victor.

Don't want me to lynch your buddy? Gotcha

Unless your role is a Septuple-Voter triggered by Time Wasting Sass and Delusions of Grandeur then that ain't happening...

So you're confirming you're partners but I don't have the support. Sadly you're right but thanks for confirming I was right.

[Jaack]

Oh, that's L-2 on Victor.

[Hoopla]

No sorry, this is fucking bullshit. You admit quite freely that your day 1 play is absolute crap, and you have yet to have anything resembling a compelling scumread day 1.

As for reading you as scum, it's the same way I did in the PYP game. You play with a cold logic. It is hard for me to read as town, but when the logical thoughts behind your posts don't add up then you're scum. It's as simple as that. At the moment, I think you read me as town, are aware that your reads are actually garbage, and are selling yourself that the cohesion is worth sacrificing a townie you might be wrong about. Am I scumreading that? Well you're knowingly voting someone you have a town read on. Sorry if it leaves me conflicted.

I mean, you're welcome to dine out on the success of catching me as scum five years ago, but lets be honest, you don't have a particularly good strike rate when it comes to reading me. That's standard operating procedure for people like you; focus on (and talk up constantly) the times you were right, ignore the times it went wrong (maybe throw in some blame-the-victimy

"well you shouldn't have acted so scummy"

post-game rhetoric) and you come to the conclusion you're shitting reads of gold. You literally can't fathom your reads are in reality similarly as weak as mine. And you literally can't fathom that someone can play in a protown way other than your own.

I'm sad to say I think you believe this. Whether or not that's a town tell... eh, we both know your post is alignment neutral.

I feel like you rarely consider my posts from a town perspective. You're always trying to work me out through the lens of scum motivation. The problem with this is you'll always find something because we're so different. How do you think I play as town? Actually, why did you call me town when you first joined the game, when I had done even less at that stage? That doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, I agree with you that my post here is alignment neutral -- I'm not going to pretend I couldn't fake that as scum. But I also don't have a town read on you like you claim. I think your thoughts have value IF you're town, but like I said, I don't know how to read you these days and I'm happy to lynch you in lieu of other good options. These sorts of situations are exactly why I like to push people into compromising earlier than usual. So we have time to adjust now that things are actually happening.

[Hoopla]

So you're confirming you're partners but I don't have the support. Sadly you're right but thanks for confirming I was right.

Oh rats, trapped again. I really need to work on this being scum thing.

[MariaR]

I really need to work on this reading wall posts thing.

[Hoopla]

I really need to work on this reading wall posts thing.

What do you think about Grey's claim?

[BlackVoid]

I'm not entirely optimistic about a GreyICE scumflip although I'm still going to vote him over Victor or IAI. I think we should discuss where we all are at, and who we'd be willing to lynch. Even if we decide not to shuffle the wagons, it'll be good info to look back on for later days.

Hoopla's latest posts give me townvibes despite her insistence that they are null. In fact, I don't like any of the options GreyICE is pushing as they're all more towny than him which makes me feel like I'm backed into a corner. IAI and Victor seem pretty set on GreyICE too so I don't know if I'll get their support elsewhere.

I'm feeling ambivalent about Sotty7. The TwoFace and Jaack reads feel reactionary and don't resonate with me at all. I suppose it could be town locked in a tunnel but the way she was trying to get out of the tunnel looked town. By the way TwoFace, I don't think Hoopla is partnered with Sotty7. She switched from Sotty7 to BBT and then talked about how she was fascinated at how these competing wagons will develop. She's basically setting herself up to look bad from VCA in later days. @Sotty7, I explained Cloud read in 325. Since then, his playing up his scumgame looked town too.

I'd happily lynch MariaR, my top choice. Could go for Rask or Michel's slot too.