Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[TwoFace]

oh cool

[TwoFace]

so, I'll try and not do a lot of posting before then.

fixed

[Sotty7]

What do you think about his back and forth with Maria when she has her vote on him asking her why she didn't "engage him"?

I'm not sure what are asking. Can you rephrase this?

In other news, I was hoping to get your take on Rask since we see eye to eye on GreyICE/BBT. I think he's the most likely partner. Can you also explain your townread on MariaR?

I'm also curious whether you think I'm missing something so commenting on my reads as a whole would be nice, especially the null reads. I think the third partner to GreyICE and Rask is in there. I just can't figure out who yet.

Reads

Town: Victor, IAI, Sotty7, TwoFace, goodmorning, Jaack, Cloud
Null: Hoopla, MariaR, Michel's slot
Scum: GreyICE, Rask

I can't link right now but posts 658 and 662 are him asking Maria why she wouldn't engage him. It feels like a push that doesn't match his behavior. Rask I have as town right now,he just started to drift into the background. Is this part of the reason you are scum reading him?

Maria is town because of her interactions with jaack and general tone feels town. There are a few reads we disagree on. I'd swap rask and two face and move jaack into the scum pile. I'd also switch Maria and cloud and hoopla is more town than null.

Why is two face town? I can take another look at rask when I get home tonight to see if anything sticks out.

[TwoFace]

I second void explaining why I'm town to him. I feel like void hasn't interacted with me much if at all. If we have it's been forgettable

[Sotty7]

Hi friends. How goes? I saw the player list and replaced in without reading anything else.

Welcome old friend, but your slot is on the ropes. There's no shame in phoning it in if you're scum and hanging out in the dead thread. I'll be there after N1 to come and reminisce about days gone by.

This has been a good hustle by Grey so far. He's really doing his slot proud, but I'm still not sold on Victor scum, sooooo I'm just gonna chill on the Jack wagon for a while...

We can see from minute 1 that she's been discouraging me from posting or giving my thoughts on the game, because she's pretty convinced she has this one tied up.

She unvoted and gave you time which you used to vote victor. I wouldn't call that discouraging.

[BlackVoid]

@Sotty7, since you seem so sure GreyICE is scum, you are not concerned about any of the players trying to derail his wagon? As for my reads, I'll break this down by player.

Jaack: He was hypocritical but I don't think hypocrisy is scummy. What do you think about the points I made in 817?

Rask: See 883. He started this conspiracy theory about you and BBT being partners, then voted you over BBT. When the BBT/GreyICE wagon picked up, his response is to do anything he can to derail it. Undecided on whether he's doing it for towncred or saving his partner because he has the influence to do it. 209, 437, and 467 look like a BBT-partner.

MariaR: Really dislike the constant refrain of "if GreyICE is town, doesn't it bother anyone that there isn't a counterwagon." It seems like a twisted argument because she's

using

that to

create

a counterwagon. We could flip the question and ask why there's so much resistance to the GreyICE wagon that we've got first you, then Jaack, then Victor as counterwagons. Looks like a pathos-driven argument that's coming from someone who wants to push an agenda.

TwoFace: The way he's pushing his reads, first Victor, now you. TwoFace being so sure that you are scum that he's close to the point of giving up looks sincere to me and his worldview of a Sotty7-based scumteam and frustration with the counterwagons makes sense.

[BlackVoid]

So, I have townreads on Victor, IAI, TwoFace, goodmorning, Cloud, and Jaack. Possibly Sotty7. My scumpool is among Hoopla, MariaR, MichelSableheart, GreyICE, and Rask. GreyICE is the only one who seems viable and if it's a choice between Victor and him, I want to flip GreyICE.

VOTE: GreyICE

Back here. That's L-1.

[MariaR]

^ needs death

[MariaR]

Like Black is taking my logic and trying to turn it against me when it's very sound proof and a valid question to ask on why no counterwagon is coming up
I don't think scum would want to give up a partner so easily

[BlackVoid]

I don't agree that no counterwagon has come up. GreyICE/BBT have been major suspects for much of the game but there have always been alternatives. It's always been hard to get a wagon on him and keep it there. First Sotty7 cropped up as a counterwagon to BBT. When it seemed like it wouldn't go through, the Jaack flashwagon idea was thrown around and received quite a bit of support until I made a town-case on him. Now there's a rallying cry to lynch anyone other than GreyICE, and Victor looked like the newest target. The thing is, it's been ridiculously hard to push this wagon because of how much resistance there is to it. You, TwoFace, Jaack, Rask, GM, and to some extent Hoopla have all tried to derail in a number of ways on a number of other people. You weren't even townreading GreyICE when you made the argument so I'm confused why you are so against it.

[TwoFace]

Bbt was the counter to sotty. There has been no serious counter to bbt.

Bbt town

Sotty scum

It's really that simple.

[BlackVoid]

Hey, every wagon that crops up in response to our preferred wagon is a scum-driven counterwagon, right? To be fair, we all think like that.

But MariaR wasn't even townreading BBT/GreyICE or pushing another wagon. She's opposing the wagon for the heck of it.

[MariaR]

Hey, every wagon that crops up in response to our preferred wagon is a scum-driven counterwagon, right? To be fair, we all think like that.

But MariaR wasn't even townreading BBT/GreyICE or pushing another wagon. She's opposing the wagon for the heck of it.

You're dying.

[MariaR]

If I see a lynch that I find better I'm going to push it and the fact there is no counter wagon (ignoring two face for the moment) is a huge sign and the fact you're ignoring it and playing it off is because you can't give a valid answer it's just "well you're trying to turn it against me!"

[BlackVoid]

You're dying.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll be sure to post final thoughts before you use your factional nightkill on me

[MariaR]

You're dying.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll be sure to post final thoughts before you use your factional nightkill on me

Would you like the gunshot in the gut or the face?

[Sotty7]

@Sotty7, since you seem so sure GreyICE is scum, you are not concerned about any of the players trying to derail his wagon? As for my reads, I'll break this down by player.

You mean the same players who keep complaining about a lack of counter wagon but aren't really doing anything to generate said counter wagon? At least they have something going with the Victor wagon now I suppose even if I disagree. I just really hate the world view of "this is too easy" without really rallying anyone to any kind of flag.

Jaack: He was hypocritical but I don't think hypocrisy is scummy. What do you think about the points I made in 817?

For one you overstated the inevitability of a Jaack lynch, we can see that with hindsight. Several people were willing to move over but it never really surfaced. If we're going to talk about counter wagons, that one had the potential to explode and yet it didn't. The meta thing could be a good point, I just find his poking on Maria about why she didn't engage him to be a little disparate and it doesn't match with his "world view". I have asked him a couple of times why he hasn't engaged me and he keeps shrugging it off as if it's nothing about nothing, why is he so keen to get an answer from Maria? Doesn't add up to me.

Rask's buddying of Grey in the last page or so is really the only thing lately that has given me pause about that slot. It seemed less like an attempt to sort than an attempt to position himself to go either way. "I don't know if I should trust you" gave me the creeps. Pick a side and commit. Not enough for a scum read though.

MariaR: Really dislike the constant refrain of "if GreyICE is town, doesn't it bother anyone that there isn't a counterwagon." It seems like a twisted argument because she's using that to create a counterwagon. We could flip the question and ask why there's so much resistance to the GreyICE wagon that we've got first you, then Jaack, then Victor as counterwagons. Looks like a pathos-driven argument that's coming from someone who wants to push an agenda.

I'll give you this point. The counter wagon point holds no weight with me considering they have a band of players that could have done something about that by now. Why are you town reading Cloud?

TwoFace: The way he's pushing his reads, first Victor, now you. TwoFace being so sure that you are scum that he's close to the point of giving up looks sincere to me and his worldview of a Sotty7-based scumteam and frustration with the counterwagons makes sense.

Did you look at twoface's reason for his initial vote on me? He is voting me for my use of the word stuff. He repeated this reasoning in a recent post and it's just awful. Since then he has just sat on my wagon and thrown out more crap about the counter wagon (something you are scum reading Maria for) and done very little to attempt to read me. I've asked him for reads that aren't me and he still hasn't delivered. Scum can very easy fake anger here while wasting a vote and not moving it. There is an active counter starting now with Victor. Where is Twoface's vote? Still on me.

[MariaR]

Okay friends if you're so smart walk me through this
you're getting close to the deadline and you're mafia.
your partner is at L2 or L3 and is close to getting lynched
WHAT DO YOU DO

[TwoFace]

My reason for voting you is way more than the use of the word stuff. Typical scum downplaying all the reasons I outlined in a big post.

[TwoFace]

In a nutshell

You voted me for agreeing with the points victor made against me. Problem was victor made no points against me. So you thought you were sheeping/buddying victor and basically lying because when questioned about it was unable to provide these points you agreed with.

You voted me for not voting my scum reads, but I had just said I didn't have any scum reads.

Voting me for not voting is ploy to appear productive and look town but it's really not productive and doesn't make you look town.

you make a couple other posts that are easily made by scum meant to earn town points aka LAMIST

You're also trying to lynch bbt/grey who's obviously town and your reason for suspecting that slot from what I remember was weak.

You say I haven't given reads which is bullshit cause I've given the names of 4 people I think are scum. (More lying)

[Hoopla]

I feel like when I'm not here nobody is really doing anything to compromise and just paying me lip service when I am here. So, some highlights recently; there have been good votes by BlackVoid to put Grey back at L-1, and by Maria to enable the possibility of the Victor wagon. We're at 2 and a half days still without a claim, so someone should declare intent on Grey or step up and get the Victor wagon going again quickly.

Hoopla... I hate. I've mislynched her, scumread her... she fucking sucks day 1. This is sadly consistent with her level of day 1 play. She hides behind it as scum, but I'm not willing to lynch her day 1 again just because her day 1 play is beyond bad.

Have you considered looking at this from another perspective, like that my D1 play may in fact be quite cool and good... and we just have different values? I like to move around my vote a lot, build wagons and then promote compromise early in the game because too often players won't relinquish ego and create stalemates that last until the eleventh hour and then suddenly any vote can be justified in a scramble. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the best/most alignment indicative stuff that happens on D1 happens post-claim, and you'll suddenly see the names in everyone's super solid

"ALRIGHT GUYS, THE SCUMTEAM IS X, Y AND EITHER Z OR J"

type posts change dramatically, and then again even more once we get flips.

You're under the delusion that you can solve the game D1 every game, whereas I value cohesion, compromise and securing an informative lynch that isn't just last minute scrambling. I think this is my best way to help the town instead of fooling myself I am nailing half the scumteam from spurious analysis. You are hyperbolic with the declaration of your reads whereas I value transparency about the strength of one's reads -- mine aren't strong at the moment, so I'm not going to pretend they are.

D1's are probably the main reason why I don't play much mafia any more, because reaching a compromise and organising a lynch on D1 is like pulling teeth, and it's laughable how many D1's follow this script. Arguing over inane shit all Day that gets thrown out the window after claims and flips isn't my modus operandi, and I'm confident the reason why you so frequently read me as scum when I'm town is largely due to playstyle differences. We haven't played together for years and I think I've become more radical in my beliefs (especially my D1 beliefs), and I also think your scummeta of me might be stale. I actually haven't been scum in two years and have no idea how I'd play it, so it beats me how you know my scumgame so well.

I don't know if this is a can of worms I want to open, and don't want to get into a big argument about this. This is just how I play, and hopefully you found something useful from this post either for this game or in the future. If you're town, I'd rather you spent your time doing a final reads post. Maybe try and pander to me and give me a top 2 or 3 in terms of sureness. I'll be more likely to follow your reads if you're honest about their strength and don't try and tell me the team is definitely X and five other players are defs town.

[TwoFace]

Oh and his original reason for voting bbt is absolutely garbage.

[TwoFace]

That's a whole lot of words and yet none of them helpful

[Sotty7]

Seriously what does LAMIST mean?

[Sotty7]

Oh never mind I googled it again and I found it on the mafiascum abv page.