Mini 532: Yaw's Split Open Mafia: (Game over)

[bird1111]

Vote Count:
Drunken Piper (2): Thanatos, SensFan
Holy (1): kabenon007
QuickBen (1): Jex
Jex (1): Drunken Piper
Zhao (1): QuickBen
SensFan (1): Zhao

Not Voting (5): Holy, Off the Mark, Korlash, Korran, Phate

With 12 alive it is 7 to lynch.

[Korlash]

huh... It seems my clever plan has worked perfectly... *Rolls eyes*

[Phate]

Scumgroup is Holy-Korlash-Phate-SensFan, OBVOBV.

[Phate]

Ok, on a more serious note: I think that at least one unpowered role should claim right now.

Then, if we lynch someone with a role, on N1 the role-reopener can reopen it and the role-switcher can switch the roles of the dead person and the unpowered.

And if we continue that way, eventually everyone will have a relevant role. It'll be literally a town full of powerroles. My money's on the town with that setup.

[Korlash]

Ha ha ha ha ha...

The role switcher should totally give me a new power... >.> <.<

[Phate]

The role switcher should give a power formerly belonging to a dead person to someone without a power. Any power is better than none.

So if you're unpowered, Korlash, tell us now.

But only ONE unpowered need claim D1. Any more and the scum have a better shot at hitting a power-role.

Also, I think we should agree on a list of the most valuable roles, from least to greatest, so as to work toward the most potent distribution of roles. I'd set them like so:

Role-Switcher (the one who's able to set this all up)
Role-Reopener (without the reopener, the role-switcher's kind of useless)
Cop
Doc
Roleblocker (incidentally, since we're going to have so many night actions, the blocker shouldn't block anyone unless they're sure the person they're blocking is scum. *bad thought* Gah, I hope the scum don't have the RB, that'd fuck this whole plan to hell.)
Night Communicators


Discuss.

[Phate]

EBWOP: My list was from best to worst, not from least to greatest.

[Korlash]

Um... Well technically I have the power of a super awesome mind.. but other then that.. yeah I'm pretty worthless...

Also I too think the Role Switcher is king here. But the re-opener is kinda dull until people start dying you know. At this very second that player is kinda worthless. Then is we lynch an unpowered tonight they are worthless too. But yeah, later on they become useful.

Wouldn't it suck if we lynched the reopener today? XD

[Korlash]

"Then is we lynch an unpowered tonight they are worthless too. "

Change it too:
"Then if we lynch an unpowered, tonight they are worthless too."

Grammar sucks...

[SensFan]

(I'll just say that I know you would vig on night 0 and leave it at that. It may have worked for you this time around, but its still a bad play statistically speaking.)

Vigs should shoot every night

Just got back from a Sens game, so I'm going to bed. I'll post tomorrow, I just wanted to get this out.

[Korlash]

... No a vig should not shoot night 0... in fact I am against a vig kill night 1 most times...

[Thanatos]

What if the scum claim unpowered? we'd be giving them all of our power roles!

[Phate]

@Korlash, SensFan, etc - Who cares? There's no vig here, and I don't give a fuck about theory that doesn't apply here.

@Than - yep. Completely right. But the scum are still at a big disadvantage: at least one of them

needs

to be unpowered, or their night action is useless, cuz they have to send in a nightkill. Whereas we'll have full use of all of our roles.

[Korlash]

Vote: Phate

No offense man but if they have a cop role then it's obvious who they make kill. If they have the switcher and two other roles then that one obviously does the kill. if they have the role reopener tonight that one kills. I may agree that theorys that have no impact on the game are dumb, but I hate even more when someone gets all uppity towards me for no reason and then comes out with a stupid theory of his own.

The mafia does not NEED an unpowered...

[Thanatos]

@Korlash, SensFan, etc - Who cares? There's no vig here, and I don't give a fuck about theory that doesn't apply here.

@Than - yep. Completely right. But the scum are still at a big disadvantage: at least one of them

needs

to be unpowered, or their night action is useless, cuz they have to send in a nightkill. Whereas we'll have full use of all of our roles.

Yeah, but so what? I'm not good at probabilities and math, but one of them almost certinally is unpowered, and probably 2 are unpowered or has a role that may not be as useful as what he has access to. It's extremely easy to claim townie, not to mention the fact that that they can just keep killing off our power roles before they get so much as one night...It's probably a much better plan to have the role re-opener work in secret....of course, this entire plan depends on the Role re-opener being town anyways...

I don't know. There are alot of variables. We're also not including the SK, who seems to have been forgotten...this plan brings alot of what the town is capable of out into the open, and for no clear benefits.

I mean, the only thing the role re-opener risks by working in secret is getting rid of one power role for another? Is that really worth giving all this information to the scum?

[Phate]

Korlash - true, I hadn't thought of that. Still doesn't make the theory stupid, only slightly less strong than I had thought. As for being "uppity," I'll be uppity with whoever I like. And speaking of which, with a name like "Korlash," why aren't you signed up for the MS MTG tourney? And what's your native language?

Thanatos - The most valuable thing the town has in its favour is the powerroles. Powerroles are better for town than they are for scum. Personally, I'd rather have everyone be a powerrole than have everyone's roles be uncertain. I think a game in which all players are powerroles is good for town, especially because most of the powerroles don't benefit scum, but they do benefit town. I mean, look at the alternative: our powerroles are just lost forever? I mean barring the rolemanipulators, our most powerful roles are cop and doc. Neither do the scum ANY good. I'd rather risk sticking a scum with a role that's useless to him (while having a greater than 50% chance of hitting a townie, in which case the role will be extremely valuable) than leave it on a dead player.

In short, if we switch, we have
>50% good for town
<50% neutral for town

And if we don't, we have
100% neutral for town


Also, I'm definitely not suggesting that the role reopener or switcher claim. ABSOLUTELY NOT. The only people that need claim for this plan to work are exactly one unpowered townie per day (except on days following nights when no powerroles were lynched, shot, or SK'd.

Speaking of which, this whole deal is even sweeter when you consider the SK. The SK is incapable of using any role, period (unless he doesn't want to kill, but I don't find that particularly likely). So any power tacked onto him is completely useless, and therefore neutral for town.

[Korlash]

... There is a MS MTG Tourney? First time I ever heard of that... and my native language is slang, followed by broken English, mixed with some Japanese at times, and ending in a lovely French accent with a small hint of Native dialect...

And yet again I find Phate speaking nonsense...

The SK is incapable of using any role, period (unless he doesn't want to kill, but I don't find that particularly likely).

I will kindly point you towards...

SK may do both.

Moving on...

This plan of yours really does not begin until tomorrow... So... Yeah... What does your plan include for today if I may ask?

[Phate]

... There is a MS MTG Tourney? First time I ever heard of that...

Check the MishMash forum.

and my native language is slang, followed by broken English, mixed with some Japanese at times, and ending in a lovely French accent with a small hint of Native dialect...

Interesting.

And yet again I find Phate speaking nonsense...

The SK is incapable of using any role, period (unless he doesn't want to kill, but I don't find that particularly likely).

I will kindly point you towards...

SK may do both.

Moving on...

Oh. There is that.

Yeah, that portion kind of wipes out, I guess.

This plan of yours really does not begin until tomorrow... So... Yeah... What does your plan include for today if I may ask?

It will consist entirely of

Day 1
A.) One vanilla claiming (check)
B.) When the end of the day approaches, I'll remind the role reopener to target the dead person if the dead person had a power.
C.) When the end of the day approaches, I'll remind the role switcher to target the vanilla and the dead person if the dead person had a power.

Night 1
Role manipulators do their thing.

Day 2
We open exactly the same as before only with more information from D1 discussion, a mafia kill, a SK kill, and the lynchee's power from D1 grafted onto a vanilla (if the lynchee had a power).

Then, we look at the powers of those killed overnight, and discuss what the best powers are, and agree which we should reopen and switch. If the vanilla from D1 (Korlash, in this instance) is now powered, another vanilla claims.

Night 2
Role manipulators do their thing.

And we repeat until someone kills the roleswitcher or the rolereopener.

What we're basically doing is making sure that everytime they kill a town powerrole, we resurrect it. Someone, Than, I think, mentioned that we're giving them too much info, I disagree. Because the people we're giving powers will have been vanilla before, so we don't lose anything. They'll either have to waste kills killing the same role again, or strike out randomly trying to get one of the role manipulators.

Basically what the probabilities comes down to is this:

it's very unlikely to hurt us

(the only thing I can think of off the top of my head is if we resurrect the roleblocker... hm. I actually think it might be to our benefit not to ressurect that role for that reason),

but it's very likely

(barring some weird townie-scum-SK endgame, every time we do it we have a greater than fifty percent chance of changing a vanilla townie to a powerrole townie)

to help us.

[Korlash]

I have bad news... the claimed "vanilla" will obviously be Nked... *Duh*

(If the dead person had a power that is)

So your plan kind of... well... Pointless...

But it is good in theory... If the opener and switcher could have figured that out without telling everyone and their mothers the plan could work...

in a sense it does direct the Mafia Nk... But it won't bring us any "new" powers/roles throughout the game...

Interesting.

Most things about me are... wait until my autobiography comes out... Interesting won't even be one of the words used to describe it!

[SensFan]

Korlash, if the scum shoot the vanilla, they are NOT shooting any of the role people. In a few days, I truly think Phate's idea will break the game open if both role-people are alive.

[Korlash]

Um... In a few days there will be no unpowered left... And so... No... Do none of you ever think anything through?

And yeah, according to Phate's plan, the "vanilla" that the mafia NK WILL be powered. That player will have whatever power was just reopened. *duh*

[Phate]

Korlash - yes, they may very well shoot the former vanillas. But if they do, what have we lost? Absolutely nothing! The scum are fighting an uphill battle, and if they choose to fight that battle by spending their lynches on our (former) vanillas, then so much the better for the existing powerroles!

When there're no unpowered left, if there's a good role on a dead person, we move on to grafting it onto the night communicators. Ideally by then the town would be Switcher-Opener-Cop-Doc-RB. When we hit 3 people, for example, if it's Switcher-Opener-Doc, then the Doc should claim so we can turn him into a cop.

Of course, it will never get that far because eventually one of the role manipulators will die, but look at it this way: we have the equivalent of a doctor that works on roles. So if they do shoot the former vanilla, that means we're forcing them to hit the vanillas. How much easier do you think this game would be if scum were forced to kill all the vanillas first?

[Thanatos]

You've still yet to give me a reason for why we can't just assume that a protown role re-opener couldn't just be assumed to open up a power role and move it onto a townie, with only the risk of giving up one power role for another, and WITHOUT HAVING THE RECIPIENT BE NKed.

Why do we need to have all of our protown actions out in the open. Isn't that why we don't roleclaim?

FOS

for a plan that I think mostly helps the scum.

[Phate]

FoS: everyone who doesn't agree with me.

But seriously: because role reopeners are incapable of doing that on their own. It must be in tandem with a role-switcher, who moves the role onto a vanilla townie. And it's necessary for the vanilla townie to claim so the roleswitcher doesn't accidentally move it onto someone with a better power. Imagine if the role-switcher accidentally switched a dead power with the reopener, for example.

I'm not suggesting anyone claim.
I'm not suggesting that all of our protown actions be in the open.

If the recipient is NK'd, that's

GREAT!

It means the scum aren't targeting the role manipulators or any of the other power roles. If the scum kill the recipient every night, that means they're killing all of our vanillas first. Scum killing all the vanillas first = GOOD FOR TOWN.

How does this plan help scum?

Once you've answered that, how does it help scum more than it helps town?


Ok, for the last page, barring one tiny post from SensFan who quietly agreed with me and didn't say why, this has been entirely me against Korlash and Thanatos, who apparently don't read my posts, because they bring up objections that I've just responded to in my last posts.

Does anyone else have an opinion?

[Thanatos]

Hmm...You may be right. I still dislike this plan though. As I said before, it leaves too many variables for screwups, and if a little thing goes wrong, it helps the scum alot. I'll withdraw my FOS, because, though I still think your plan is wrong, I believe that you think it's right. Still, be prepared to take responsibility if this goes wrong, which I think it will.