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There's a massive difference between challenger ADCs and ADCs everywhere else.

1. Their mechanics are better. They CS better, teamfight better, and overall are far more likely to be able to find the sweet spot where they can impact games.
2. Challenger supports are very good at enabling ADCs and giving them the opportunities they need to get and stay ahead or come back when they fall behind.
3. The rest of the team is far more likely to want to give the ADC farm throughout the game since they all understand very well that the ADC is going to have the most impact in games by getting gold as fast as possible (as well as being a prime target for the enemy team).
4. The rest of the team is far more likely to trust you to deal the damage you need to do if supports, so they're going to try to peel for you.
5. The rest of the team is far more likely to be willing to escort ADCs to all the towers on the map when they're snowballing so everyone else gets snowballed as well.

Sure? I don't see that as contradicting my point, which is that ADC is a high skill position so long as you view skill as your ability to make the most positive impact on your team's chances for success AS COMPARED to the replacement level player you're compared to.

You can say that "oh, people at high levels help their ADC more" and I agree. But if challenger games feature this, they do so on BOTH sides of the game. Which still leaves you in a position where the best players will rise.

When is Zyra getting a nerf?

Seriously seems way too strong.

http://matchhistory.oce.leagueoflegends ... 229/862635

Was an interesting game, but seriously Zyra support is such a pain in the ass to be against, and somehow i did most damage in the game.

But hey autofill.

In post 2201, zoraster wrote:Sure? I don't see that as contradicting my point, which is that ADC is a high skill position so long as you view skill as your ability to make the most positive impact on your team's chances for success AS COMPARED to the replacement level player you're compared to.

You can say that "oh, people at high levels help their ADC more" and I agree. But if challenger games feature this, they do so on BOTH sides of the game. Which still leaves you in a position where the best players will rise.

Well none of us is disagreeing that ADC is the high value target. The adc that gets to live through a teamfight, whether won or lost, is by waveclear and threat to objectives still important. Be the "worse" adc, win the teamfight, but die yourself and your team is getting nowhere. ADC's do in the end matter more to winning or losing the game, that's why they are carries, decisions they make are necessarily going to have a bigger impact.

At our level though, it seems like people are too bent on getting themselves killed by showing how skilled they are. That seems like its defeating the point to me. You are the position where you are the key to winning games and you start making coinflips: what? I don't think you'll see any of the challengers do that. I feel as adc you have fewer choices to make, though indeed they may be more impactful, and have little opportunity for mechanical outplays because if it came that far the opponent is already in a decent position.

But ultimately I guess it comes down to how you frame skill. And at our level, there's still quite a bit of depth to find, because it's amazing how much nuance you find in playstyles if you just spam one champion for a month or so.

I frame skill as the ability to consistently win. Essentially skill at time X is equivalent to what your MMR would be if you played like you are at Time X for a large number of games.

Obviously there are some wrinkles such as duo queuing and such (is the ability to win more with someone you have a synergy with equivalent to being more skillful?) but this is the basic premise.

All other types of skills that go into winning more: mechanical ability, knowledge of matchups, map awareness, teamplay, vision control, etc. are part of that "skillfulness"

It wasn't meant to contradict you, zoraster. It was more explaining why there are so many ADCs in the highest tiers.

ADC teamfighting at high levels is difficult af

In other news, Twitch is the best ban in every single MMR according to best bans.

In post 2208, zoraster wrote:In other news, Twitch is the best ban in every single MMR according to best bans.

Yes, but Nidalee is the best ban in every game where anyone wants to have fun.

The beauty of ten bans: you can ban them both and get rid of Zed so that your ADC doesn't ragequit two minutes in.

Unless your banning nidalee from your team there is no point.

39.5% win rate on Nidalee, and it only goes to 40.41% in plat and above.

In post 2194, mykonian wrote:

In post 2192, KaleiÐoscøpe wrote:I've come to the conclusion that as support, it doesn't fucking matter what you play in gold. I have a 100% winrate on warwick support because people are stupid

I can extend this. I'm currently on a smurf with hybrid pen/regen/cdr rune support shaco and unless I'm playing with a vayne main who tend to tilt the moment champ select ends, laning phase ranges from fine to winning, mid/late game opposing supports seem to be lost at what to do. My main there is gold 5, one trick pony shaco support with silly runes smurf is silver 1 and climbing.

To a point it doesn't matter what you play, what your runes and masteries are, basics carry you quite far.

Made gold with this. Who wants a shaco support guide?

Me?

In post 2210, JasonWazza wrote:Unless your banning nidalee from your team there is no point.

39.5% win rate on Nidalee, and it only goes to 40.41% in plat and above.

Yup. Which doesn't make her any less aggravating, regardless of ELO. Champ is absolute cancer.

I did say "have fun" for a reason.

My goal with ranked is to win, so I'm not banning a 40% win rate champion.

And frankly I don't see why Nidalee is considered unfun to play against.

I like playing against nidalee cause I stomp her.
I'd much rather ban junglers like vi or zac.

Personally i just miss Nidalee being half decent, but whenever she is actually half decent, she is banned way too much.

RayFrost and I are having fun in Blinds, if any want to join~~~

Highlights of Game 1 - full-tank support Draven, mirror Akalis in mid who flamed eachother the whole game, mirror Caitlyns (ours went PD->BT->RH, no IE), and a Hecarim jungler (theirs) who ignored all epic monster spawns...? We won.

Highlights of Game 2 - Ray going bot on Yasuo with me on Vel'Koz support, BUT he forgot to change his Maokai masteries out AND we still whooped a Tristana/Galio botlane, where about 5 minutes we also had a 2-man gank from our Riven mid (???) and Shaco jungler, who I believe was drunk and never grouped with the team for a teamfight once. Their Udyr was carrying HARD (tiger stance) and was just destroying us until a couple teamfights where we ran back and forth across the map basically taking inhibs and Baron back-and-forth. We eventually lost.

Highlights of Game 3 - Ray is apparently having problems with his masteries! After switching/saving them with "plenty of time", he ends up having to play AD Zyra mid. He goes 9/1/6, with as much CS as the Renekton top (he was AD too). Everyone bows down, including the enemy team, who surrender at 22:xx after we ace them in a teamfight mid, where they'd been hanging around FOREVER trying to get our outer mid tower.

Warlord's bloodlust trinity force phantom dancer zyra is the future

In post 2214, zoraster wrote:My goal with ranked is to win, so I'm not banning a 40% win rate champion.

And frankly I don't see why Nidalee is considered unfun to play against.

Spammable, costless mobility and self-healing, mostly. She aggravates the hell out of me in any game she's in, whether I win or lose, because there's always going to be that one impossible escape, so I prefer to ban her across the board, ranked or otherwise. The tilt just isn't worth it.

Admittedly, this is just a pet peeve, and I don't expect others to share it. I also don't mind using a ban on her in ranked because I'm sitting in low Platinum, and if I can't carry out of there as whatever champion whatever champion, then I don't think I deserved to climb in the first place.

I might feel differently about it if I were a solo laner, but as a jungle main, I don't really care too much about counterpicks. If one of my laners has a specific matchup they want to avoid, I'll ban it for them; if they don't, I just policy-ban Nidalee to save myself the tilt. Beyond that, I'm happy to let people play whatever. It's Plat. Doesn't matter what champion the enemy picked. I just have to wait for the inevitable screw-up.

Remind me to post Soraka pics when I get a chance.

That champion is just broken.

If you surrendered every single game at 20 minutes, you've spent 42 and a half days playing league of legends. At least.

That's... really not that long considering how long I've been playing.

In post 2207, Dwlee99 wrote:ADC teamfighting at high levels is difficult af

adc teamfighting at low levels is fairly hard. at silver people have figured out how to focus the adc but not to protect them. You basically have to do nothing but kite until someone ccs their divers ehich is usually 4 or 5 seconds.