Mini 1766: SCP Foundation Mafia (GAME OVER)

[RadiantCowbells]

pagetop

[Klingoncelt]

464 is awful and chainsawy.

I agree.

I'm not liking Ari's coasting, it's not like them. Cow, yeah, I've seen him prodge his way through a game, but not Ari.

[Klingoncelt]

Here's a reads list, discuss:

TOWN
Extrapolated Eagle
Shos

LEAN TOWN
A Real Scourge
Elsa and Anna(Frozen Angel & Radiant Cowbells)
Holly and Sugar(Itlepip & kirroha)

NULL
Alchemist21
Raskolnikov
SnarkySnowman

LEAN SCUM
AristoCow(Aristophanes & TheCow hydra)
Beeboy

SCUM
Iraonavp
Kelbris

[Alchemist21]

Ok, I've gone through Ira's ISO.

@Ira; How much of their thoughts and opinions do you think Town should express?

[iraonavp]

Ok, I've gone through Ira's ISO.

@Ira; How much of their thoughts and opinions do you think Town should express?

I don't feel like I should answer this question.

You wouldn't know it, but I don't even have a single vote on me right now. That must be the flaw in Elsa and Anna's play!

Elsa and Anna, would you please link me to the referenced instance in which you did something similar?

[A Real Scourge]

i see, that's fine then. thanks for the detailed explanation.

so in the end it didn't give overwhelming evidence one way or the other. it's hard to for me to judge the because i've never played with you and only have word of mouth, but what you've done here seems like a reasonable course of action. can you reply to 452 as well?

181 is bad
I don't like how you were trying to be neutral with them even as you had E/A voted
346 is bad (somewhat moreso because it follows 345)
your view on beeboy is weird
Your attitude is friendly and even comes off as naive(?) which feels wrong for someone wagoned and under pressure

After a lot of reflection I think I'm weirded out because of how everytime you ask someone something or even scumread them it's like you give them an out, like a really big chance to change your mind.

But it was way too easy to wagon you which feels wrong and I don't like the people who hopped on. I'd feel better about something like kelbris because even if hes town I won't have any remorse.

man, not sure how i feel about people thinking of me as lynchbait.. but it's probably my own fault.
alright.
all of these are legitimate, honestly.
the reason i had the sisters voted was because i was trying to say that what they wanted to do (get lynched, and then get beeboy speedlynched), was anti-town, and so town shouldn't do it. i was trying to tell them that if they were town, they needed to rethink things. i also really don't like personal fights in games.

my attitude has been mentioned by other people before. i don't know if i'm naive (but if i was, i wouldn't know, why i?), but i am friendly. i like to have fun, and i don't like it when things get personal. i'm not sure how you expect someone to respond when they're under pressure, as you say, but.. like.. do you expect me to get angry and stop being friendly? that's not how i do. plus, a wagon in a game isn't gonna make me upset. i get upset from personal attacks and such.

the fact that you're saying this is making me rethink things. i want to be taken seriously, and if that means taking a more serious tone in my posts, i'll try it out.
the bolded line is what really gets me though. i think you're town, and this is a large part of why. because you might be right. i mean, i'm still new to this, i'm trying to work things out, but i like that you're giving me genuine advice here. i try to hunt through townhunting, but i guess if i too easily give out townpoints, it kind of defeats the purpose, huh?
the aim of my voting is to get a reaction out of the people i'm voting. i always vote people i could see being scum. if it looks like i gave them an 'out', it means they did something that i think scum wouldn't do in their position. i think i've given reasons for all of my unvotes or changes, and it'd be helpful if you told me which ones weren't deserved. not everyone i've unvoted is free of suspicion from me, either. in the cae of shos, for example, i'm just less confident. and in the case of iraon.. well, see the below.

UNVOTE: A Real Scourge

Glad we could reach an understanding. I also conveniently have found another person to vote now, at the same time as I am no longer reading you as scum-aligned.

VOTE: Elsa and Anna

The real issue with the ARS wagon is that I tried to make counterwagons on people I thought were town but were objectively and none of them took.
Feels like a town wagon solely because of that, or the people I voted while trying to hit town (Alch) were scumpartners.
Either way, not too happy about the ARS wagon at this time. Not too happy about Raskol's 'sounds like a nice person' logic either but don't necessarily think it's alignment indicative.

I have good feelings about this.

VOTE: Aristophanes

I don't think that you have gathered any reliable information from this endeavour. You are making so many assumptions here it's just ridiculous. ARS could be being bussed already. Alchemist could be scum-aligned. The scum-aligned players might not be voting on your opportune counterwagon because they don't want to follow someone whose opinions appear to change at (on?) a whim. They may have felt unable to convincingly change wagons in the short day or whatever your pristine counterwagon opportunity gave them. Or, you could be scum-aligned! Trying to predict the actions of an alignment with so many interfering variables is comparable to astrology.

I have a hard time seeing you believe what you're saying here. It really looks to me like this is more serving the agenda of making E&A look town-aligned rather than finding the scum-aligned players. In a sort of "wow what a great try at finding scum, elsa and anna" way.

Also the way you deem it necessary to even announce this. You seem perfectly happy stating your opinion on other players without reasoning, "ars is a mislynch" would suffice.

I'll think about Aristophanes, I'm not sure how I feel about that vote.

iraon, i don't really feel we reached an understanding.. like i said, i unvoted you because i think a lot of what you say is weird and like.. purposely suspicious? the line about how you've 'conveniently found another person to vote, at the same time you've stopped scumreading me' sounds like something a different person would say to sarcastically describe your play. i can hear this hypothetical person in my head saying 'yeah, iraon isn't scummy at all! he just does conveniently scummy things'.

that and.. why is it weird that Elsa and Anna announced this? they gave their views and gave their reasoning.. nothing wrong with that. and they, like..

just

explained why they made votes like the Alchemist one without reasoning.

Last time I tried that counterwagon formation thing with reasons it ruined the game for Plotinus and Ether blacklisted me so I'm not going down that alleyway again.

Guess there's a happy medium to be found there. I'm not good at this.

regardless of how you feel about the sisters method for trying to catch scum in opportunistic voting, it looks like an honest try to me.

dfgdg

[A Real Scourge]

Ok, I've gone through Ira's ISO.

@Ira; How much of their thoughts and opinions do you think Town should express?

I don't feel like I should answer this question.

You wouldn't know it, but I don't even have a single vote on me right now. That must be the flaw in Elsa and Anna's play!

Elsa and Anna, would you please link me to the referenced instance in which you did something similar?

and then you make posts like this, where... okay, honestly, i don't understand what you're saying in the middle line. can you explain this?

why shouldn't you answer a question about game theory? the amount of info that a Town player should give about their opinions is entirely theory... your opinion on this shouldn't be something you need to keep hidden.

[A Real Scourge]

Here's a reads list, discuss:

TOWN
Extrapolated Eagle
Shos

LEAN TOWN
A Real Scourge
Elsa and Anna(Frozen Angel & Radiant Cowbells)
Holly and Sugar(Itlepip & kirroha)

NULL
Alchemist21
Raskolnikov
SnarkySnowman

LEAN SCUM
AristoCow(Aristophanes & TheCow hydra)
Beeboy

SCUM
Iraonavp
Kelbris

klingon, you seem to make a lot of reads based on meta, which is fine (and obviously not all of them are like that, considering you haven't played with everyone here)
i don't really have a problem with it, it's just not how i play. so it's hard for me to see some of your reasoning since i don't know the players (Aristocow, for example)

but, i agree with your list for the most part, and in the parts where i don't, i can see why you'd put a player there considering how you've presented your views so far. why is Holly and Sugar so high, though?

[iraonavp]

I think some of what I've said could be interpreted as being intentionally suspicious, but that wasn't my intention. When I point out things like what you mentioned, it shows that I'm already aware of what I'm doing and stops people like Klingoncelt from attacking me for really textbook things. When I'm town-aligned, I don't like having to pander to some circlejerky idea of how a town-aligned player should act.

Ok, I've gone through Ira's ISO.

@Ira; How much of their thoughts and opinions do you think Town should express?

I don't feel like I should answer this question.

You wouldn't know it, but I don't even have a single vote on me right now. That must be the flaw in Elsa and Anna's play!

Elsa and Anna, would you please link me to the referenced instance in which you did something similar?

and then you make posts like this, where... okay, honestly, i don't understand what you're saying in the middle line. can you explain this?

The implication is that the scum-aligned players are hesitant to change votes and test the waters first.

why shouldn't you answer a question about game theory? the amount of info that a Town player should give about their opinions is entirely theory... your opinion on this shouldn't be something you need to keep hidden.

Seemed like a pointless theory question to me.

[Klingoncelt]

Here's a reads list, discuss:

TOWN
Extrapolated Eagle
Shos

LEAN TOWN
A Real Scourge
Elsa and Anna(Frozen Angel & Radiant Cowbells)
Holly and Sugar(Itlepip & kirroha)

NULL
Alchemist21
Raskolnikov
SnarkySnowman

LEAN SCUM
AristoCow(Aristophanes & TheCow hydra)
Beeboy

SCUM
Iraonavp
Kelbris

klingon, you seem to make a lot of reads based on meta, which is fine (and obviously not all of them are like that, considering you haven't played with everyone here)
i don't really have a problem with it, it's just not how i play. so it's hard for me to see some of your reasoning since i don't know the players (Aristocow, for example)

but, i agree with your list for the most part, and in the parts where i don't, i can see why you'd put a player there considering how you've presented your views so far. why is Holly and Sugar so high, though?

I just finished a hugely epic game with Itlepip, I got to know him (and the other players) pretty well. (Over 400 pages in a 6-Day game, not counting the Mod PT, Dead Thread, Neighborhood PT, Scum PT, and 12 Adventure PTs: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=64887 )

[Alchemist21]

Ok, I've gone through Ira's ISO.

@Ira; How much of their thoughts and opinions do you think Town should express?

I don't feel like I should answer this question.

You wouldn't know it, but I don't even have a single vote on me right now. That must be the flaw in Elsa and Anna's play!

Elsa and Anna, would you please link me to the referenced instance in which you did something similar?

You should answer it; it will help me try to understand you better.

[iraonavp]

I think that town-aligned players should try to express as many of their opinions as possible. I'm not going to read players as scum-aligned just because they don't post much, though. It's just something that makes people easier to read.

I'm not sure what you're having difficulty understanding, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was some deep internal inconsistency with how I play.

[Alchemist21]

Well there is an inconsistency here. Up until your recent post about E&A your posts seem to only give us your conclusions and not how you arrived at them (the explanations that are there are either vague or just agreeing with somebody). If you believe that Townies should express their opinions because it makes them eaiser to read then I think your posts would be more fleshed out than they are so that others could read you as Town.

VOTE: iraonavp

I was actually expecting an answer similar to "only what's necessary to avoid giving scum more info than they already have" as I know a few players think that way, and was going to look back at any of your previous Town games to see if they were consistent to your play here. I still might do that, but the contrast between your play and your philosophy on Town play makes me think you're scum who hasn't wanted to say much. The E&A post being the exception to your posting so far makes me think you're scum who thought they had an excellent opportunity to scumread a Townie.

[iraonavp]

Caught in my own elaborate web of lies, alas.

[iraonavp]

Well there is an inconsistency here. Up until your recent post about E&A your posts seem to only give us your conclusions and not how you arrived at them (the explanations that are there are either vague or just agreeing with somebody). If you believe that Townies should express their opinions because it makes them eaiser to read then I think your posts would be more fleshed out than they are so that others could read you as Town.

No, this doesn't logically follow. I don't claim to be playing optimally.

I was actually expecting an answer similar to "only what's necessary to avoid giving scum more info than they already have" as I know a few players think that way, and was going to look back at any of your previous Town games to see if they were consistent to your play here. I still might do that, but the contrast between your play and your philosophy on Town play makes me think you're scum who hasn't wanted to say much. The E&A post being the exception to your posting so far makes me think you're scum who thought they had an excellent opportunity to scumread a Townie.

Sometimes I just don't feel like saying stuff, or I just don't have much to say. If you look at the game I played as scum-aligned, I put in a lot more effort than I am putting in here.

[Raskolnikov]

man, not sure how i feel about people thinking of me as lynchbait.. but it's probably my own fault.
alright.
all of these are legitimate, honestly.
the reason i had the sisters voted was because i was trying to say that what they wanted to do (get lynched, and then get beeboy speedlynched), was anti-town, and so town shouldn't do it. i was trying to tell them that if they were town, they needed to rethink things. i also really don't like personal fights in games.

my attitude has been mentioned by other people before. i don't know if i'm naive (but if i was, i wouldn't know, why i?), but i am friendly. i like to have fun, and i don't like it when things get personal. i'm not sure how you expect someone to respond when they're under pressure, as you say, but.. like.. do you expect me to get angry and stop being friendly? that's not how i do. plus, a wagon in a game isn't gonna make me upset. i get upset from personal attacks and such.

the fact that you're saying this is making me rethink things. i want to be taken seriously, and if that means taking a more serious tone in my posts, i'll try it out.
the bolded line is what really gets me though. i think you're town, and this is a large part of why. because you might be right. i mean, i'm still new to this, i'm trying to work things out, but i like that you're giving me genuine advice here. i try to hunt through townhunting, but i guess if i too easily give out townpoints, it kind of defeats the purpose, huh?
the aim of my voting is to get a reaction out of the people i'm voting. i always vote people i could see being scum. if it looks like i gave them an 'out', it means they did something that i think scum wouldn't do in their position. i think i've given reasons for all of my unvotes or changes, and it'd be helpful if you told me which ones weren't deserved. not everyone i've unvoted is free of suspicion from me, either. in the cae of shos, for example, i'm just less confident. and in the case of iraon.. well, see the below.

I think I was a bit harsh. I didn't intend to criticize your style, but rather just express why I in particular felt the way I did about you. I'm new myself and I could be wrong or see this differently than others, and furthermore everyone has their own style to some extent and people get used to it if its nai (through experience and meta). As far as the game itself it's a breath of fresh air and so what if it made the read a little harder! (buddying) I really liked talking with you because its so much nicer than the more usual arguing, fighting or sometimes apathy you often get elsewhere. Please don't change! (/buddying)

[Alchemist21]

@Ira, What doesn't logically follow is why you would willfully play suboptimally. I can get the not having much to say part, but you seem to be deliberately holding back your thoughts and that seems contrary to how you think Town should play.

I also specifically said I wanted to review your Town games because scum meta can be manipulated. I guess I can infer that your Town posting is generally lax, but it kind of bothers me and adds to my suspicion that you specifically chose to say this isn't like your scum game rather than say this is similar to your Town games. I'll admit this bit may be due to confbias.

Finally, the issue isn't really about effort as much as showing your thought process.

[iraonavp]

@Ira, What doesn't logically follow is why you would willfully play suboptimally. I can get the not having much to say part, but you seem to be deliberately holding back your thoughts and that seems contrary to how you think Town should play.

I'm not trying to play suboptimally, I'm just not trying very hard to play optimally.

Finally, the issue isn't really about effort as much as showing your thought process.

Showing my thought process involves putting in effort.

[iraonavp]

I don't even know how we got to this point. See, this is why I shouldn't answer bait questions, ARS.

Like I'm being backed into a corner here and Alchemist is accusing me of being scum-aligned because my playstyle is either hypocritical or I'm not trying hard enough and only town-aligned players give reasons for their vote like I just said, right? I swear to god he better not do what I expect him to do next.

You blatantly set me up Alchemist, with all of that "hmm ira looks a bit suspicious might wait to see what everyone else thinks before leading him by the nose into his own noose" bullshit. There was no fair way for me to honestly answer that question without looking terrible. If I had've given the other answer you would've found some other way to twist my words.

I'm not sure if I should vote you because you could actually be town-aligned, and even if you were scum-aligned it would just make me look worse. But I did see something coming from a mile away.

[Alchemist21]

I was not trying to bait you or twist your words. Had I gotten the kind of answer I expected and seen that confirmed by your previous Town games I would have thought you to be more likely Town than not. That may still change depending on what those games look like, but with the way you keep responding I'm doubtful.

[Alchemist21]

Also, the difference between showing your thoughts vs effort is akin to telling me 5+5=10 as opposed to telling me y'=8

[Alchemist21]

* y'=3x+8

[Davsto]

SnarkySnowman and Extrapolated Eagle are being prodded.

They have (expired on 2016-02-29 12:55:00) to post before being replaced.

EDIT: forgot it was a leap year

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I really don't have much more to say, though. Rask needs to die. Like this isn't something we should be ok with. He's aphix and I can see him chuckling at me as I VI my way through this game. :/ I can't put the right words on the table it seems. There is no one else I want to lynch first. He's obvscum. :/

[Raskolnikov]

mfw my scumreads stop posting