A Song of Ice and Fire UPick - Game Over

[Cerberus v666]

the investigatives that would have done damage claimed day 1

the scum team capitalized on this

Exactly. That's bad play on the towns part, NOT a poorly balanced setup.

I mean, you need to look at this in a vacuum anti. Though I do agree town was lacking in ways to stop the scum kill, since all they had was the seraph knight and a 2 shot rolecop/block that would have caught scum 3/5 of the time, their investigative power and potential innos certainly wasn't negligible.

The TWO innos on scum come from blind luck more than anything else(again, i didn't follow the game well enough, so I don't know if the inno that came from the bus driver(because there was one of those, right?) resulted from town making it obvious who they would investigate), and once there was cause to *suspect* a bus driver, inno's should/could have been considered as potentially suspect. Outside of PoE pool for a bit, but not ironclad. ESPECIALLY since it was a gunsmith+vig, and not a straight cop+miller. Evidence already existed that the mod had taken steps to make the investigative clears not absolute, so...they shouldn't have been considered absolute.

[toolenduso]

The flip side of the seraph is that if moon's protect had resolved on town, we wouldn't have been able to get around it with our bus drive. So it had potential to be fairly damaging for scum as well.

But I do want to note here that most of the time when the scum team gets to see several town PR claims early in the game, it winds up working very much in scum's favor.

[Antihero]

it's an effective guilty on multiple players; if the bd gets Guiltied scum may as well resign because it's probably a double Guilty anyway.

chances of that are vanishingly small

[T S O]

Like tool said above, everything went right for us. Literally every night action we made for the first two nights was optimal. I don't think there were better night actions than the ones that we took. We were able to get a second Inno only because kelbris telegraphed his target to us at the end of the day after being so blatant with his d1 claim.

[Antihero]

oh yeah dont get me wrong im not blaming elyse for town losing. i am looking at the setup like i would as a reviewer

[Cerberus v666]

Anti, I'm leaning more towards the game being balanced than either TSO or yourself, but I still think it was more town-sided than scum sided, if it was unbalanced.

I mean, the Seraph Knight could have even ended up making half of the mason lover pair bulletproof, which goes a long way towards limiting the downside of the masons...or done the same for the IC. BP conftown can be incredibly strong, depending on who is in the slot of course.

[toolenduso]

I have to say, the presence of the traitor I actually wound up enjoying a lot. It gave scum a lot of hesitation but that became fun for me eventually, having to narrow down possibilities. In a way the traitor can be a very big benefit from scum -- aside from giving a false negative to the gunsmith, it also forces scum to genuinely scumhunt. And genuinely scumhunting is one of the most valuable things scum can do for themselves.

Then there was the unexpected paradigm that came during LyLo where town assumed that scum would quickhammer a townie who had one vote on them -- normally that's true, but the presence of a traitor negates it.

[Cheetory6]

Bus driver is a really strong role for scum. Like.
Really strong.

[Antihero]

Bus driver is a really strong role for scum. Like.
Really strong.

[Antihero]

so is jk

[Cheetory6]

And like. Traitor is also really understated. Scum doesn't need roles to offset everything that town can do IMO.

[Antihero]

overall i think scum prs needed more gates bc they had way too mucheaper power to completely screw everything over

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah, I don't make or review games, but...it just feels to me like the worst case scenario of night actions and the best case scenario for either side, result in an equally quick victory for one side or the other.

Bus Drivers, vigs, and cops are all roles which are capable of determining the outcome of a game all by themselves, so it's hard to really judge balance here for me.

[T S O]

JK's literally a block since the vig just claims the missed kill, no-one explains it, the missed kill person. It's similar to, I don't know, d3 of this game. Bus Driver is strong. 2-shot BD is not nearly as strong.

[T S O]

Town definitely needed some sort of nerf this game. Make vig not consecutive, at the very least, or buff scum somehow.

[Spiffeh]

Also trusting gunsmith guilties is dumb anyway

And it will always be dumb

[Spiffeh]

innocents not guilties

[Cheetory6]

[I mean most gunsmith innocents will be accurate. Much in the same way cop innocents will be accurate.]

[Cheetory6]

Like, the gunsmith result was literally the worst possible thing that could have happened for that role. Any other result on anyone [even a guilty on a PR] would have been better.

[toolenduso]

Wow this game was nearly two months long. I feel like I carried so much tension around with me because there was very little time in this game where I felt like we were going to win. Even toward the end there, I was worried that we would lynch TWIE and then go to a second LyLo where everyone would PoE me. Or that we would lynch Shiro and Shiro would end up being the spy.

So in a way just glad it's done. It was fun but ho boy this game. Ho boy.

[toolenduso]

Why did you target tool N3?

Because hes a good player.

Oh and I didn't think it was a good idea to say anything at the time, but thank you for this Albert. You're on of my favorite players on site for sure so it's very nice to hear this.

[Spiffeh]

Ugh tool I thought you guys had caught on I was Traitor

Or I would have made it more obvious

I EVEN WINKED AT YOU THAT ONE TIME

[Spiffeh]

Oh btw randomidget was on fucking point this game

So good job there

[Antihero]

Town definitely needed some sort of nerf this game. Make vig not consecutive, at the very least, or buff scum somehow.

they had nerfs! all of them!

and your scumteam was juiced!

[massive]

FA, maybe you and I should hydra. Maybe that would help us understand each other better.