Mini 515 - The Pine Barrens - Game Over!

[Rishi]

Third Vote Count - Day 1

ryan - 5 (Elias_the_thief, TheHermit, Boggzie, mcpaltp, opie)
Boggzie - 2 (ryan, hasdgfas)

Not voting: ThAdmiral, Zakarum, Bookitty, neko2086, Spider Jerusalem

12 alive. 7 votes to lynch.

[Bookitty]

ryan has PMed me regarding replacing into Open 41 on October 8. I didn't feel I could do so at the time, due to having replaced into several games.

ryan might be scum. I am not vouching for his innocence. But I will attest to the fact that he sent me a PM regarding replacing into that game, and I know he is actively seeking replacements.

So while I can readily believe that you received such a PM, Boggzie (I see no reason for you to lie about this) I don't believe that it means what you think it means. In any case, I've received no PMs from ryan since the one I just mentioned, which was well before the start of this game.

[ryan]

This is 100% crap. Do you know want to know why I voted Boggzie, because he is LYING and should have been mod killed for posting a message. I did NOT ever say that Boggzie asked to be replaced, I PMed a bunch of people that were online at the time as I was looking for a replacement quickly in the game. The message I sent was to replace into a game (I can't find it in my sent box at the time but I will keep looking) Listen I'm not going to bog down the town here on Day 1 but I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that I am not scum, Boggzie is lying and should be lynched for causing a complete and udder pile of flaming crap so far.

[Boggzie]

This is 100% crap. Do you know want to know why I voted Boggzie, because he is LYING and should have been mod killed for posting a message. I did NOT ever say that Boggzie asked to be replaced, I PMed a bunch of people that were online at the time as I was looking for a replacement quickly in the game. The message I sent was to replace into a game (I can't find it in my sent box at the time but I will keep looking) Listen I'm not going to bog down the town here on Day 1 but I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that I am not scum, Boggzie is lying and should be lynched for causing a complete and udder pile of flaming crap so far.

You appear awful upset for me being a total liar. Besides, you admit to PMing me, hence I'm not a liar. So, you're either so upset and angry that you're losing track of your train of thought, or you're telling lies to cover yourself. Either way - you're looking worse.

I even insinuated that you probably meant to PM Bookitty from the list, and sure enough she hopped right to your defense; making sure to include enough faux-doubt to distance.

I'm not going to get tunnell vision this early on anyone but you, because I know you're lying. You're falling all over yourself in doing so. The others will come to light, like they do in every game. You just made a bonehead mistake and now you're having to deal with it.

[hasdgfas]

Also, invariably, instead of deleting the PM why didn't he just PM again and say; "oh already found someone" like every other mod does, had I even asked to replace anywhere anyway?

yeah, this happened to me. I got a notification of a pm from someone who I asked to replace into a game of theirs and didn't have the pm when I checked or a "oh, already found someone" PM. It happens. not everyone thinks "oh, I PM'd a bunch of people to replace, I'll let them know that they don't need to." If it was me and they hadn't opened their PM, I would just delete it. I still think your "I got a PM from someone, they are scum" is full of crap. my vote stays.

[Bookitty]

Okay, Boggzie, since I know for a fact that I received no PMs from ryan, and since I don't regard anything I've posted as a defence of ryan, and since I think that such metagaming things are utter crap anyway...

Keeping in mind that a one-for-one exchange, scum for town, is utterly disastrous for scum (I'm sure you know this), if ryan doesn't come up scum, I'm going to be certain that you are. I'm sure that I won't be alone in this. And no amount of "Oh, I guess I just screwed up, then!" on your part is going to change my mind.

So, with that said... the only way I see to clear my own name is if ryan is lynched, and comes up town. And I hate that, because I don't want to lynch town, but that's the position this has created.

I am going to ask, though. Are you aware, Boggzie, that if this is just a gambit on your part, you're likely to be lynched tomorrow if you're wrong?

[ryan]

Boggzie: Ya know what bro, the only reason I'm upset is because you have 100% lied on Day 1 and instantly put the town in a terrible and awkward position. Your PM (and you know it) was about replacing into my game. I have done nothing early on to show any sort of scum tails and if taking one persons word over another is how you people are going to vote (instead of finding evidence) I will gladly be lynched because the town does NOT deserve to win this game. For the last time, I am 100% town, period.

[TheHermit]

Unvote

Honestly, I think it's possible that ryan is telling the truth and was simply trying to look for replacements. Not certain, but definitely a possibility. Honestly, if I was town and I received a PM from a scum in the game who mistakenly thought I was his scumbuddy, I would ask to be replaced. But that's just me. So I'm not really engendered to Boggzie right now. At this point, it's a huge case of your word versus his, and I don't think we're going to get anywhere debating about it right now.

Here's the thing, though; if Boggzie DID receive a PM, then he knows what it contains. If he's trying to play up this "I received a PM from him he must be scum" angle while he KNOWS that's not what the PM was about, that makes him a liar.

FOS: Boggzie

[Boggzie]

since I know for a fact that I received no PMs from ryan

What?

ryan has PMed me regarding replacing into Open 41 on October 8. I didn't feel I could do so at the time, due to having replaced into several games.

Didn't you just say you

didn't

receive a PM from ryan?

Are you aware, Boggzie, that if this is just a gambit on your part, you're likely to be lynched tomorrow if you're wrong?

Even better - making a play like this is suicide if I'm lying. It serves no further purpose to make an accusation like this this early in a game this large. It's total stupidity if I'm just lying to knock off one player. Why would anyone with even the slightest amount of exp. in this game do that? Oh wait - they wouldn't!

I've already stated that I know this is suicide if he's town.

Boggzie: Ya know what bro, the only reason I'm upset is because you have 100% lied on Day 1 and instantly put the town in a terrible and awkward position.

Teriible and awkward? You put the

scum

in a terrible and awkward position. If by some stroke of luck you make it to Day 2, tonight you're gonna have a bunch of 'splainin' tah do, Lucy.

Your PM (and you know it) was about replacing into my game. I have done nothing early on to show any sort of scum tails and if taking one persons word over another is how you people are going to vote (instead of finding evidence) I will gladly be lynched because the town does NOT deserve to win this game. For the last time, I am 100% town, period.

Um - wouldn't the smart thing to do, since at the point you PMd me would have been to let the PM stand as you

knew

you were in a game with me?

I haven't lied about anything, as you keep saying. I received a PM from you during the mafia-only communication time during this game. Which you confirm. If you're town,

which you're not

, I'll be lynched tomorrow - that goes without saying. However, I'm confident enough that you made a mistake to lay it on the line and prove now, very early, that I'm town.

[Boggzie]

Here's the thing, though; if Boggzie DID receive a PM, then he knows what it contains.

I don't know what it contains, he deleted it when he realized he PM'd the wrong person.

[Bookitty]

You're right, Boggzie. I did receive one well before this game. And I should have said I received no PMs from ryan regarding this game.

That said, I'm about to do something I never expected to do, which is place a vote on someone hoping that they are town. I see no way to clear my name otherwise.

unvote; vote ryan

[Elias_the_thief]

um, yeah. this bandwagon is moving WAY too fast for my liking.
As far as I see it, there is no proof of whether the PM was for replacement purposes or for the purpose of PMing a buddy. Personally, I'm inclined to think its the former, seeing as
1) He IS searching for a replacement in a game, and
2) Sending a pm to his buddy now would be daytalking, and I'm assuming we have no cheaters here. Obviously, I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

That being said,

unvote

.
Also, Boo, PLEASE don't do that. He may be scum, he may not, but the fact that he sent a pm to someone that MAY have been intended for you is certainly not enough for me to think you're scum, and if the rest of the town thinks otherwise, then the quality of play in this town is kind of questionable. (aka, you should NOT get lynched based on that alone).

More later.

[Spider Jerusalem]

Hmmm... lots to think on.

I'll examine the potential outcomes on this as they were previously presented by neko2086.

Boggzie is innocent and ryan is scum: This is very possible, however I am loath to be swayed by a purely metagame incident that I can not even verify. ryan's conduct so far has struck me as emotional and animated. He's rarely if ever responded in a calm and logical manner, but been more prone to outbursts and accusations. However, this almost seems to be so over the top that it would have been a very poor idea were he scum. That begs the question that I am currently considering when making up my mind about ryan: Is this just some very poor play choices by a scum, or is this a townie who fell down a hill and can't stop the momentum.

Boggzie is scum and ryan is innocent - If this is the case it is a series of amazing coincidencies. First is that is the existence of the PM itself. Either by pure chance Boggzie got a PM at just the correct time to try and use it against ryan, or hey took a chance and made it up whole cloth but ryan has told is that there is every possibility that he did send it. what a stroke of luck that would be. Secondly, at the exact same time that the previous event occurred ryan just happened to be already under some amount of suspicion here for other behavior, giving the opportunity for the PM bombshell to have extra effect. This just seems overall unlikely to me, if ryan had denied flatly the existence of the PM I would give this option a lot more weight. In the light that ryan has said he may have sent a PM but can neither confirm nor deny it, and has not made any denial in regards to potentially having retracted said PM. The luck necessary to stumble into this situation just seems to be to great for me to believe it happened, unless it was planned, which I will comment on later.

Boggzie and ryan are both innocent: This would require that specific events occurred. Boggzie recieved a PM from ryan regarding a replacement in a game, and it was withdrawn before he could read it. Boggzie then made an assumption about that PM that proved to be incorrect. This would seem more likely to me if ryan didn't take the wishy-washy position of it being

possible

that he sent Boggzie a PM. (emphasis mine) It could just be a poor memory, but it also is the kinda position designed to leave a wiggle room if more specific evidence comes out. So I am disinclined to support this theory.

Boggzie and ryan are both scum: This is possible but would be a horrible play for the scum at this point I think. As was mentioned previously a 1:1 scum for town trade is awful for them. With a closed setup we don't even know if we have a doctor so this could be handing us the absolute best result we could hope for out of a day. Their only hope is that we would confirm the scum who outed the other as innocent, which I don't think will happen. Given that this seems like such a bad move for the scum I can't get behind this theory either.

In conclusion I lean towards believing situation #1 (Boggzie is town, ryan is scum). However, I'm not convinced. We also just don't have enough overall info for me to be happy with day one coming to a close just yet, so I'm holding my vote but

FoS: ryan

from me as well.

[ryan]

You're right, Boggzie. I did receive one well before this game. And I should have said I received no PMs from ryan regarding this game.

That said, I'm about to do something I never expected to do,

which is place a vote on someone hoping that they are town

. I see no way to clear my name otherwise.

unvote; vote ryan

That is one of the scummiest lines I've read on this site. You are willing to sacrifice a townie in order to clear yourself?

[mcpaltp]

You're right, Boggzie. I did receive one well before this game. And I should have said I received no PMs from ryan regarding this game.

That said, I'm about to do something I never expected to do,

which is place a vote on someone hoping that they are town

. I see no way to clear my name otherwise.

unvote; vote ryan

That is one of the scummiest lines I've read on this site. You are willing to sacrifice a townie in order to clear yourself?

Yeah, seriously. Listen, everybody: you should never,

ever

vote for someone unless you think that they are scum. It's like pointing a gun at someone. This is what scum do. If I didn't think that ryan was scum, I'd be voting for you in a heartbeat.

I wish I had two votes.

Oh, and ryan may be right, but I still think he's scum.

[ryan]

You're right, Boggzie. I did receive one well before this game. And I should have said I received no PMs from ryan regarding this game.

That said, I'm about to do something I never expected to do,

which is place a vote on someone hoping that they are town

. I see no way to clear my name otherwise.

unvote; vote ryan

That is one of the scummiest lines I've read on this site. You are willing to sacrifice a townie in order to clear yourself?

Yeah, seriously. Listen, everybody: you should never,

ever

vote for someone unless you think that they are scum. It's like pointing a gun at someone. This is what scum do. If I didn't think that ryan was scum, I'd be voting for you in a heartbeat.

I wish I had two votes.

Oh, and ryan may be right, but I still think he's scum

.

What evidence do you have to support your claim?

[Bookitty]

That is one of the scummiest lines I've read on this site. You are willing to sacrifice a townie in order to clear yourself?

I don't know that you're a townie. I only know my own status. I'll sacrifice a person of unknown status in order to save a guaranteed townie every time, yes, I will. As should any pro-town person. If you're town, and you are willing to sacrifice yourself for someone of unknown status, then you're an idiot.

What is your damage anyway, ryan? You're like the angriest little man in the world.

[ryan]

My damage? What are you talking about? I'm pissed because a blatant lie has been told and without jumping up and down wearing a "I am town shirt" you people are actually buying that I'm scum and sent a PM to the wrong scum partner. And you're taking one persons word over another and that is the wrong way to play mafia and you know it too. Evidence is how you lynch somebody not one person over another.

[Bookitty]

I was more referring to you being all angry about an obvious joke to start with and continuing being angry throughout the game to the extent that it seems you're taking it really personally.

I agree that the metagame thing sucks, since we both know it's not true, but the only way to prove it's not true is for one of the three of us to die, I guess. So I don't understand the level of anger you're showing. And I'm not sure Boggzie is LYING, either. I think he's wrong. I don't KNOW he's wrong, but I think he is. I think you sent him an unsolicited PM about replacing into your game, much as you had sent me one when I posted that I would do some replacing... and that you realised you'd missent it and withdrew it. That's what I THINK, but I don't know it. And Boggzie may honestly think what he says he thinks. He might be mistaken, and not lying at all.

Taking someone's word over another is what this game is about, really, or rather, deciding whose word is good, and whose word is scummy. Hard evidence is difficult to find. Rarely does someone say, accidentally, "Oops, I'm scum, lynch me!" But if you're going to get angry whenever anyone does something unfair, makes a mistake, tells a lie, hell, tells a joke... you're going to be angry too much of the time, and people are going to ask you...

hey! What's your damage?

Just my opinion. As always, I could be wrong.

[ryan]

Well if you think that I'm scum who would send a PM to the wrong partner you are sadly mistaken.

[mcpaltp]

My damage? What are you talking about? I'm pissed because a blatant lie has been told and without jumping up and down wearing a "I am town shirt" you people are actually buying that I'm scum and sent a PM to the wrong scum partner. And you're taking one persons word over another and that is the wrong way to play mafia and you know it too. Evidence is how you lynch somebody not one person over another.

Why am I voting for you?

I am voting for you because I think Boggzie's argument scans, at least a little bit, and your angry, emotional defenses and lanshing outs seem like scum flailing to get the attention off of himself and onto anyone else.

As for evidence, how the heck could I have any definitive evidence? apart from gamebreaking stuff like role pms, or vote history examinations (not as useful on day 1) the only thing to go off of is post content analysis. You have the scummiest responses (OMGUS, extreme defensiveness), so I think you are

most likey

to be scum.

[mcpaltp]

Well if you think that I'm scum who would send a PM to the wrong partner you are sadly mistaken.

Slip-ups happen.

[ryan]

How would you handle being lied about on Day 1 and blatantly?

[Elias_the_thief]

are willing to sacrifice a townie in order to clear yourself?

Yeah, seriously. Listen, everybody: you should never,

ever

vote for someone unless you think that they are scum. It's like pointing a gun at someone. This is what scum do.
[/quote]
I disagree with this. A lot. There ARE valid reasons to be voting someone you think might be town (gambits, pressure to force posts, to provoke a reaction), and even reasons to lynch town sometimes (plain sight lurkers, purposeful anti town behavior from a proven town player). However, I will agree that what Boo said was scummy. Voting for someone to clear your name is most definately NOT a valid reason to vote for someone you might think it town. An

FoS

is in order.

[Elias_the_thief]

messed up tags...should read:

That is one of the scummiest lines I've read on this site. You are willing to sacrifice a townie in order to clear yourself?

Yeah, seriously. Listen, everybody: you should never,

ever

vote for someone unless you think that they are scum. It's like pointing a gun at someone. This is what scum do.

also, forgot an FoS for MC for the "listen guys" and consequent direction of what the town should think.