Mini 515 - The Pine Barrens - Game Over!

[mcpaltp]

Rationally, I'd explain why I think it's a lie and answer questions asked of me. It's just a game and it's a common tactic of scum to fake the indignant response and divert attention elsewhere. Lack of scrutiny and distractions are the scum's friend, emotional responses are distracting.

As town, it's in the best interest of the town to protect town and lynch scum. wildly diverting attention to anyone else is self-serving, and not in the best interst of the town. Who wants to do things that are not in the best interest of the town? Scum, some 3rd parties who don't win with town, and persons under bizzare post restrictions. Eliminating the thrid option as highly unlikely,

chances are

you are scum.

There is some possibility (illustrated aboive by SJ and others) that both of you are confused townies, but I evaluate how people respond to allegations and accusations as much as the allegations and accusations themselves. And frankly, I beleive in putting my money where my mouth is and voting for whomever I think is the scummiest at the time that I post.

Hence my vote on you.

[Spider Jerusalem]

How would you handle being lied about on Day 1 and blatantly?

I would post a logical and reasoned explanation, if that involves saying he lied, I'd say it. However, I would not let him rattle me and get me to explode because I would assume that was exactly the kind of response scum was hoping for since it tends to only build the bandwagon.

I would like to ask though what is the lie you are saying was told here.
So far you have admitted that it is possible you sent him a PM (post 64). So saying he got a PM from you is not yet known to be a lie.
You have yet to deny that you may have then withdrawn that PM, so saying that it was withdrawn before he could read it is not yet known to be a lie.
Boggzie has only claimed that he believes, believes being the operative word, from the timing and the withdrawal that the contents were a scum buddy conversation. In order for this to be a lie (most simply defined as an intentional untruth) he would have to know that statement to be false, or have stated it as a fact without knowing it as a fact. However, he did not state it as a fact, and unless he either did not received a PM from you (but you have admitted he may have), or read that PM and knows it's contents were innocent (but we have no proof of that nor have you refuted that it was withdrawn), then he has in no way lied in his claim.
To sum up a statement of opinion that may be incorrect is not a lie.

So my questions are:
Why do you repeatedly call him a liar as opposed to saying he is mistaken?
Is there anything you wish to state to refute his claim that we have not heard yet?

[mcpaltp]

*snip* Listen, everybody: you should never,

ever

vote for someone unless you think that they are scum. It's like pointing a gun at someone. This is what scum do.

I disagree with this. A lot. There ARE valid reasons to be voting someone you think might be town (gambits, pressure to force posts, to provoke a reaction), and even reasons to lynch town sometimes (plain sight lurkers, purposeful anti town behavior from a proven town player). However, I will agree that what Boo said was scummy. Voting for someone to clear your name is most definately NOT a valid reason to vote for someone you might think it town. An

FoS

is in order.

also, forgot an FoS for MC for the "listen guys" and consequent direction of what the town should think.

I'll concede that there are a few corner cases where it is appropriate or even a good idea to vote for someone who you think may have a chance of being town, but those are pretty infrequent. But there isn't any reason to lynch anyone who is town. Plain-sight lurkers should be modkilled, warned or replaced if neccessary, and if someone is town, but acting in a non-town manner(I'm not even sure what this would be), but you somehow know that they are town anyway, you still shouln't waste a lynch where you could kill scum.

When it comes right down to it, lynching scum is the way that the town wins games. I don't see why it's suspicious to say that the object of the town is to not kill members of the town.

[mcpaltp]

So my questions are:
Why do you repeatedly call him a liar as opposed to saying he is mistaken?
Is there anything you wish to state to refute his claim that we have not heard yet?

Holy crap, you are awesome. 2nding this!

[Spider Jerusalem]

Yeah, seriously. Listen, everybody: you should never, ever vote for someone unless you think that they are scum. It's like pointing a gun at someone. This is what scum do.

I disagree with this. A lot. There ARE valid reasons to be voting someone you think might be town (gambits, pressure to force posts, to provoke a reaction), and even reasons to lynch town sometimes (plain sight lurkers, purposeful anti town behavior from a proven town player).

Elias I think you misunderstand his meaning here.

I think when he said "unless you think they are scum" he meant something more like unless you have some reasonable doubt they are town. I could be wrong but that was my reading of it. However the real issue I think is this statement:

You're right, Boggzie. I did receive one well before this game. And I should have said I received no PMs from ryan regarding this game.

That said, I'm about to do something I never expected to do, which is place a vote on someone hoping that they are town. I see no way to clear my name otherwise.

unvote; vote ryan

In particular the "place a vote on someone hoping they are town part"
This really rang bells for me at first as well.

Upon a second reading I got this though:
Thanks to some of the accusations from Boggzie, Bookitty was implicated as a possible scum buddy with ryan. She comes out with possible other explanations for what Boggzie saw as a scum tell. Due to ryan's continued emotional posts though she seems to have a change of heart. Her problem is that there is still the onus of suspicion on her and if ryan does turn up scum she is very possibly next. So in that situation an innocent person would be torn between wanting ryan not to be scum to clear themselves and their belief that he is scum.

This could be an effort to distance herself though. However since she was caught in a damned if she did damned if she didn't position (either she defends him and is guilty that way if he is scum, or she votes and if he turns up scum it's distancing) I don't feel much of a conclusion can be drawn at this time.

[Boggzie]

I'm unsure on 'Kitty. Her initial unwillingness to vote ryan, worried me. However, her eventual turn lessened it, but now it seems like it may be an overt "distance" ploy. She's not a huge worry to me right now.

hasdgfas

- I'd like to know your thoughts now. Keep your vote on me, whatever, but I'd like to know why you'd so quickly believe ryan's OMGUS reply & vote. I mean, I have the most to lose, really it's the only way anyone's believing me. So that weighed against a

blatant

OMGUS vote, and subsequent angry posts; where do you stand? How do you feel about ryan?

Unvote

Honestly, I think it's possible that ryan is telling the truth and was simply trying to look for replacements. Not certain, but definitely a possibility. Honestly, if I was town and I received a PM from a scum in the game who mistakenly thought I was his scumbuddy, I would ask to be replaced. But that's just me. So I'm not really engendered to Boggzie right now. At this point, it's a huge case of your word versus his, and I don't think we're going to get anywhere debating about it right now.

Here's the thing, though; if Boggzie DID receive a PM, then he knows what it contains. If he's trying to play up this "I received a PM from him he must be scum" angle while he KNOWS that's not what the PM was about, that makes him a liar.

FOS: Boggzie

TheHermit

- Again, I've the most to lose. Why would a scum make a claim like this

knowing

they'd be knocked off the next day? What sense would it make? It's not my word vs his, it's the game overall. All logical strategy would have to be tossed out the window. Why? To what gain? I'd love to hear you rationalize it out. Also, because I had this nugget of info and didn't ask for a replacement it somehow makes it less believable?

Overall, as I said before, I've only the one piece of evidence that I've shown. Everyone else, while some I must suspect more than others, are relatively equal to me right at this point.

[Elias_the_thief]

Yeah, seriously. Listen, everybody: you should never, ever vote for someone unless you think that they are scum. It's like pointing a gun at someone. This is what scum do.

I disagree with this. A lot. There ARE valid reasons to be voting someone you think might be town (gambits, pressure to force posts, to provoke a reaction), and even reasons to lynch town sometimes (plain sight lurkers, purposeful anti town behavior from a proven town player).

Elias I think you misunderstand his meaning here.

I think when he said "unless you think they are scum" he meant something more like unless you have some reasonable doubt they are town. I could be wrong but that was my reading of it. However the real issue I think is this statement:

I'm just taking the statements as I see it. I still see fault with what you said, seeing as it restricts voting for people you have a neutral read on, a vital part of play. But the reason I am suspicious of him is that he was trying to lead the town into believing it, and a townie in my opinion would put it out there as his opinion, not tell the town what to do. But anyhow, mc is by no means by top suspect. He just as one scummy post. I do not suspect Ryan much either. Ryan has a decent excuse for sending a pm in the first place, and it is completely unverifiable whether or not it was for replacement. Also, last time I saw him get this defensive, he was town (and quoted his pm, but we won't get into that). This isnt to say I think he's town; This is just to say that I dont think he's scum for either of the major tells on him so far. My one question to ryan: did you find a replacement for the game (no, im not interested in filling the position if you havent)?

My two top suspects are as follows:

Boggzie:

I don't know what scumtells you're believe in, but I don't understand how you can think someone is scum based on an unopened pm. Pushing this case based on that is fairly ridiculous. I also dont like this post:

The others will come to light, like they do in every game.

I dunno. It just sounds...off. Like he's trying to inflate a weak case by claiming to be a steller scumhunter. I always find people who claim to be great at finding scum to be suspicious, unless they have completed games to back it up (do you?).

Bookitty:

You're right, Boggzie. I did receive one well before this game. And I should have said I received no PMs from ryan regarding this game.

That said, I'm about to do something I never expected to do, which is place a vote on someone hoping that they are town. I see no way to clear my name otherwise.

unvote; vote ryan

That's just plain scummy. I as a player have nothing against lynching townies for the gain of the town, though I dont want to get into that debate right now. However, lynching another townie to clear your own name is in no way a good reason to lynch someone that you don't think is scum. First, you're assuming that you are more valuable to the town. Second, you're assuming that by doing this youre actually clearing your name, and I feel that youre doing quite the opposite. So yeah. Scummy post. Also, if Bookitty is scum, theres lots of motivation to lynch a townie and clear herself. Not to mention her inconsistency on whether or not she got a pm from ryan.

For now,

vote: Bookitty

[TheHermit]

I as a player have nothing against lynching townies for the gain of the town, though I dont want to get into that debate right now. However, lynching another townie to clear your own name is in no way a good reason to lynch someone that you don't think is scum. First, you're assuming that you are more valuable to the town. Second, you're assuming that by doing this youre actually clearing your name, and I feel that youre doing quite the opposite. So yeah. Scummy post. Also, if Bookitty is scum, theres lots of motivation to lynch a townie and clear herself. Not to mention her inconsistency on whether or not she got a pm from ryan.

I agree with all of this. Assuming we lynch ryan and he comes up town, how does this prove that you are town? Answer: it does not. It does not clear your name.

Vote: Bookitty

Although it's pretty certain that if you come up scum, ryan's next on the chopping block.

[Bookitty]

Okay, first off, I do not know that ryan is town at all. But I know for certain that Boggzie's theory about how ryan was pm-ing ME because we are scumbuddies is not correct.

I was considering voting ryan because of his weird overreaction to my joke early on, and then all this exploded. I don't KNOW that he's scum, but I don't know that about anyone. I had thought he might be, but I also believed his explanation about the pm, because it made sense to me. Then ryan's weird insistence that Boggzie was lying was really suspicious to me, because it seemed pretty clear to me that the worst that Boggzie can be guilty of is being wrong (assuming there WAS a pm, which ryan hasn't denied).

But if ryan is scum, then Boggzie's allegations regarding me seem true, and I know they aren't, so... I have no means to clear myself, because Boggzie's accusations stick unless ryan is lynched and ryan is town, and ... I don't want town to be lynched. But I do want to refute these allegations, and I have no way to do so. It's so oddly ooc/metagame that I have no means of defense. The only solution is for SOMEONE to be lynched, and even then I see no means of determining who is lying about this, because the catalyst is something that can't be proved within this thread (or perhaps ever).

But it's true, there's nothing I can do to clear myself in this case short of dying or being investigated. I'm implicated by Boggzie's comments about ryan, and I'm implicated regardless of which one is truthful or correct, and regardless of which one I find more convincing. So it was a fairly clever gambit by Boggzie, really. Two people with one accusation, with no proof on his part required. I have to applaud that, on a game level, if it is a gambit and there was no pm.

To clarify, though. I did get a pm from ryan, on the date I said, regarding replacing into his game, which I did not do because I'm currently involved in several games. I did NOT get a pm from ryan regarding this game at any time. The only pm I have received regarding this game was from Rishi, and I think it was only the one.

And, if you lynch me, and I come up town (as I will), have you gained any further information for the town? Will that clear Ryan? Will it clear Boggzie? Will it incriminate either of them?

I stand by my statements. I don't think Boggzie is lying, I think he's mistaken. I don't think ryan is lying, I think he's overreacting and I don't like him saying Boggzie is lying because, much like his reaction to my joke early on, he's overreacting in a huge way. And I have not received a pm from either of them, or any of you save Rishi, regarding THIS game.

That said, this game is weird enough and involves enough metagame stuff that I suspect you're right, I'm not all that valuable to town in this one. I don't have a clue how to proceed, or how to gauge anyone's reaction to this kind of weirdness. If ryan and/or Boggzie are town, then they're likely going to be more able to figure this situation out than I am, because I'm completely thrown by this.

So with that, I'm going to

unvote

and wait to see what develops. If I get lynched, well, I don't have any good insights about this game anyway. I'll pipe up if I have any thoughts, but at the moment, I'm stumped.

[Zakarum]

I as a player have nothing against lynching townies for the gain of the town, though I dont want to get into that debate right now. However, lynching another townie to clear your own name is in no way a good reason to lynch someone that you don't think is scum. First, you're assuming that you are more valuable to the town. Second, you're assuming that by doing this youre actually clearing your name, and I feel that youre doing quite the opposite. So yeah. Scummy post. Also, if Bookitty is scum, theres lots of motivation to lynch a townie and clear herself. Not to mention her inconsistency on whether or not she got a pm from ryan.

I agree with all of this. Assuming we lynch ryan and he comes up town, how does this prove that you are town? Answer: it does not. It does not clear your name.

Vote: Bookitty

Although it's pretty certain that if you come up scum, ryan's next on the chopping block.

QFT Very nice read Elias good call.

Vote: Bookitty

[Rishi]

Fourth Vote Count - Day 1

ryan - 3 (Boggzie, mcpaltp, opie)
Bookitty - 3 (Elias_the_thief, TheHermit, Zakarum)
Boggzie - 2 (ryan, hasdgfas)

Not voting: ThAdmiral, neko2086, Spider Jerusalem, Bookitty

12 alive. 7 votes to lynch.

[neko2086]

So Bookitty, we shouldn't vote for you because we wouldn't learn anything about Boggzie and ryan? You unvote, yet you seem to be arguing that one of them should be lynched to shed some light on our situation here.

I'm just as confused as you now.

[Bookitty]

I don't know who's lying. I don't know what you learn from lynching any of us. I thought at first that if ryan was lynched, and he turned up town, that we'd know Boggzie was guilty, and we would be trading town for scum. I don't think that now, upon reflection, because I believe Boggzie is honest, but wrong. Boggzie believes ryan is scum, but I don't agree with his reasoning. I'd thought ryan was possibly scum for other reasons, but I don't think THIS case makes sense against him.

So they were honest questions, not rhetorical ones. I don't see what we learn by lynching any of the three. That said, one of them might be scum. I have no insight into which of the two is scum. If I've behaved scummily by stating my situation as honestly as I can, well, I have the excuse that the situation is not one I have encountered before nor is it one that I have any idea how to respond to. Apparently honesty was a bad idea.

I can't clear myself. Regardless of what happens, I am implicated because Boggzie says I am, because he got a notification of a pm, unread, and he thinks it must have been for me. How am I supposed to defend against that? I have no clue. It's a no-win situation for me, because I can never disprove the accusations against me. I thought if ryan were town, that it would prove the charges against me false, but apparently that doesn't matter anymore either. And I'm confused enough at this point that I can't understand why that's true. It still seems to me that if ryan is town, and proven to be so, then Boggzie's accusation of me can't stick, because ryan's pm is proven to be what he said it was. But apparently I would still be guilty even if that were true. Hmmm.

So if we're going to lynch town (and it's very possible ryan and Boggzie are both town too) it may as well be me, because I cannot defend against suspicions that do not arise from the game in progress. I don't like metagame stuff (I've voiced this before), I don't handle it well, and I don't have a clue what to do about something like this. I'm not angry, I just have no idea how to proceed.

[ryan]

So my questions are:
Why do you repeatedly call him a liar as opposed to saying he is mistaken?
Is there anything you wish to state to refute his claim that we have not heard yet?

1) Because instead of saying that I might have sent him a PM to join my game he immediately said that I was scum trying to PM him and I messed up and sent it to my wrong scum buddy, that is a bold faced lie. I do not discount that I may have sent him a PM to join my game, and yes I realize he wasn't on the reaplacement list, but what I did (as I stated earlier) was PM people that were online at the time when I needed a replacement. I cannot find the message in my sent box and I sent out quite a few replacement inquiries that day so I do not know for 100% certain that I sent him a message to join my game BUT I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt I did NOT send him a PM as my scum partner as I am not scum

2) Without quoting my role I can tell you that he has lied about the contents of said PM. Basically the way I look at it is IF I sent him a PM (which I didn't) and I was scum and he wasn't and it was past the speaking deadline than he should have reported it to the mod and one of us should have been modkilled for PMing AFTER the deadline was imposed, that would be breaking rules early on and easily fixed (by one of us being modkilled)

[hasdgfas]

hasdgfas

- I'd like to know your thoughts now. Keep your vote on me, whatever, but I'd like to know why you'd so quickly believe ryan's OMGUS reply & vote. I mean, I have the most to lose, really it's the only way anyone's believing me. So that weighed against a

blatant

OMGUS vote, and subsequent angry posts; where do you stand? How do you feel about ryan?

To be honest, I don't trust either of you. I don't think you're scumbuddies because, while this would be a brilliant ploy, the reactions seem too genuine. The reason I believed ryan was because as I said before:

yeah, this happened to me. I got a notification of a pm from someone who I asked to replace into a game of theirs and didn't have the pm when I checked or a "oh, already found someone" PM.

Deleting a PM without telling someone what it was if they hadn't opened it makes sense to me. I was confused when the above happened to me, so I PM'd the PMer and he said that the PM was to find a replacement, but he already found one. I think the same thing happened to you and the timing was a coincidence. You're making too much out of a PM that could have been for many reasons. My vote is on you for making too much out of a little thing, but just so you know, it could easily be on ryan for the same thing. You just seem a little more...eager to get someone lynched quickly.

@ryan: If you keep responding with these emotional posts rather than logical arguments to refute his statements, there is a possibility I will change my vote. I think there is a good possibility that one of you is scum, and at this point I think it's Boggzie, but IGMEOY.

The only solution is for SOMEONE to be lynched

he's not in this game

but anyway. Bookitty gives me good vibes. All these accusations about things that have nothing to do with the game seem unfounded and wrong. There does need to be a lynch today, but Boggzie bringing bookitty into this because her name is similar to his is ridiculous and is, IMO, the only reason she is under suspicion right now. That is another reason why my vote is on Boggzie. bringing someone else into this based on something that might be a reason as to why she might have received a PM. that is an unnecessary accusation and it seems like you're just throwing suspicion on people to try to get them lynched because there is a possibility that you got mis-sent a scumbuddy PM that possibly was intended for Bookitty because her name is somewhat similar to yours. very scummy, just throwing around suspicion based on something as weak as that.

[opie]

Okay, let me provide a quick recap of a few things (mainly for my ownself)

Post 64:
Boggzie claims that during the confirmation stage, he received a notification of a PM from ryan. When he went to read the PM, it was unsent. Boggzie then says he believes that ryan is scum and mistakenly PM’d the wrong name. Vote for ryan.

Post 65:
Ryan states there is a possibility that he PMed Boggzie to be a replacement in Open 41. Vote for Boggzie

Post 66:
Boggzie posts a copy of email notification of a PM from ryan. He also they casts the net to include Bookitty stating that he beliefs she is who ryan intended the PM for.

Post 67:
Boggzie adds that the PM notification came and hour after his role PM.

Post 74:
Boggzie (in response to hasdgfas) claims that he never asked to be a replacement for any game. He also reiterates that the PM was deleted/unsent before he had a chance to read it.

Post 77:
In her first post since Post 66, Bookitty admits receiving a replacement PM from ryan on 10/8 for Open 41. She then states ryan has not PMed her since.

Post 78:
Ryan says that he PMed a bunch of people that were online at the time looking for a quick replacement. He then says:

The message I sent you was to replace into a game (I can’t find it in my sent box at the time but I will keep looking)

Post 82:
From ryan:

Your PM (and you know it) was about replacing into my game.

Post 86:
Bookitty provides the sixth vote for ryan to “clear [her] name”

Post 109:
Bookitty states that she is thrown by the whole situation and unvotes wondering what we learn by lynching any of the three.

Post 114:
ryan in response to two questions posed by Spider Jerusalem writes:

2) Without quoting my role I can tell you that he has lied about the contents of said PM. Basically the way I look at it is IF I sent him a PM (which I didn't) and I was scum and he wasn't and it was past the speaking deadline than he should have reported it to the mod and one of us should have been modkilled for PMing AFTER the deadline was imposed, that would be breaking rules early on and easily fixed (by one of us being modkilled)

[neko2086]

I just had this thought. Boggzie says that he mus be innocent because of the risky move he's made. Well, sure, you're taking a risk if your town, but I wouldn't put it past mafia to make such a risky move, and here's why: mafia has backup. If all the mafia got in on the plot in the beginning, Boggzie would actually have less people to convince, making this move not nearly as risky as he's trying to make it out to be.

Currently, opie and mc are the only others voting for ryan, and I wouldn't say I automatically suspect them of being scum because the other scum wouldn't want to appear to be bandwaggoning too much, but they would still want to keep the suspicion on ryan and off of boggzie for the time being.

This may be a crap idea, but I think it's entirely possible.

[mcpaltp]

Frankly, the lot of 'em seem at least a little scummy to me. I'm voting for Ryan because his responses seem the most emotional and ever-reactiony to me. Like I said before, it wasn't the accusation that mattered to me, but how ryan responded to the accusation.

I feel like I keep repeating myself or something.

[ryan]

Guys I cannot find said PM in my box, apparently I did send one (as he quoted it) but I have no confirmation I sent him one to replace into my game. You can go look as I was looking for replacements (and found) since this game started. All I can say is he is lying if he says I'm scum and sent him a scum laced PM, it's simply not true

[opie]

I think the undisputed facts are that ryan sent Boggzie a PM during the confirmation stage (at least, ryan has no yet outright denied it). I think the job for us as a town is to determine what is the significance of it.

Three people have been roped into this whole mess: Boggzie, ryan and Bookitty.

I feel confident in ruling out Bookitty as scum (for now). The only reason she got roped into this was because of Boggzie's comments in Post 66, which I feel were wild speculation on his part, without any evidence other that the similarity in their names. This is not entirely implausible, but it is tenuous. I know she has drawn some votes for voting for ryan hoping that he be turn up townie, but I suspect it was a move to distance herself and that she got caught up in the overreactive nature of this discussion thus far. Further, her vote was the sixth vote for lynch. While scum will vote for other scum to divert attention. I think its a dangerous tactic for scum to provide the L-1 vote for a fellow scummy.

Currently, my vote is for ryan and will remain so for reasons I will explain. Even before all of this ryan raised my suspicion over Bookitty's comments in Post 37 about hasdgfas "directing" my play. In Post 40 ryan throws a seriously suspicious eye towards Bookitty for comments that were clearly tongue-in-cheek. ryan may have misinterepreted but he seemed to me pretty quick to finger a target to lynch and was the first one to cast any real suspicion. This alone is not enough to warrant a lynch vote, but enough for me to keep my eye on.

Based on the undisputed facts, I think Boggzie's assumption/interpretation is a reasonable one. ryan's extremely reactive replies and his jumping up and down claiming LIAR LIAR has done little to dissuade me. If anything it has had the opposite effect. But I was really struck just now by ryan's second part of Post 114. It left me with a lot of questions:

-Why would he need to quote his role to tell us that Boggzie lied about the contents of the the PM?
-How did Boggzie lie about the contents of the PM? He said that it was "unsent" before he had a chance to read it. He only stated what he thought and "unsent" PM during the confirmation stage implied: that you were scum who mistakenly sent a PM to a non-scum.
-I also don't understand "IF I sent him a PM (which I didn't)" are you

now

denying sending a PM?
-Also "and it was past the speaking deadline", this is the first time I've heard this. Boggzie said he received the notice during the confirmation stage, an hour after his role PM. Where is this coming from?

This reply from ryan in very confusing to me. He seems to be muddying the water by bringing up new issues and diverting attention back to Boggzie. This seems to be scummy behavior.

Therefore my vote for ryan stands.

[mcpaltp]

Guys I cannot find said PM in my box, apparently I did send one (as he quoted it) but I have no confirmation I sent him one to replace into my game. You can go look as I was looking for replacements (and found) since this game started. All I can say is he is lying if he says I'm scum and sent him a scum laced PM, it's simply not true

That wasn't what he said at all. His suspicions (in his posts at least) were that you sent him a message then deleted it before he could read it. As it came during the first night right at the beginning of the game, he thought that you may have mistaken him for a scumbuddy.

Reviewing over his posts, I see no indication that he claimed that he was able to read the PM, just that the timing was fishy.

[mcpaltp]

(forgot to add this bit)

Frankly, I'm just seeing a lot of misdirections and misrepresentations from Ryan. Lying and trying to direct suspicion on the attacker seems scummy to me.

My vote stands, and it would take an awful lot for me to change it.

[ryan]

So mcpaltp, when I come up town what are you going to do than? Make silly excuses to why you voted me I'm sure

[mcpaltp]

Seriously, are you a jester or something? I wish I could vote for you more than once. If you flip town, I'll have egg on my face, but as of now I am super confident in my position. I am 99.9% convinced you are scum at this point.

[ryan]

The people who are voting me have zero evidence (you included) you are taking one person's word over another and calling it gospel and that is NOT how you play mafia. You take evidence and build a case, until you do that I will continue to call you out on this.