Blitz 1: C9++ (GAME OVER!)

[Persivul]

@Titus:

1. I liked your old (a few months ago) avatar better

2. Why do you want a massclaim this early? As the set-up is only SEMI-open, is it really going to do a lot of good?

I'm not saying it's suspicious that you're pushing for it at this point...but how would it benefit us?

[Persivul]

Have to lynch for it to count...if you just go by accusations, everyone hits scum D1 once in awhile.

Checking out the Marge claim...

[Persivul]

I feel sad now knowing the set up had more possiblities and getting a vt role

So did we get down to why Marge role revealed after being against it?

Yes but people just can't bother reading my post

OK, read it and it looks like you made a vt claim for no good reason.

[Persivul]

I thought the set up was not something that could be judged as easy as Titus. Seeing the correct set up I have no issue.

How is this setup easy to judge?

[Persivul]

Can someone explain to me why, in a massclaim, scum won't just claim VT, and then they'll have PRs to target?

[Persivul]

Because that would be dishonest of them?

Nice...

[Persivul]

Titus is town for the people voting her, just saying.

Why?

[Persivul]

Flubber = towniest so far

[Persivul]

All the PRs would protect each other

How does that work?

[Persivul]

Any protective PR would target a PR claimer.

If we have investigatives, then some of the protectors won't be protected.

[Persivul]

Though I admit Marge is possibly scum, too. I think four is possible with the setup, but what combo, not positive of yet.

Overall, pretty confident in {BlockyMan, Firebringer, Marge, EspeciallyTheLies}. I'd be extremely surprised to see a scum outside these names.

So in your fourth post, and 129th overall, you think you have the scum nailed down?

I find that really difficult to believe, and have to wonder why you're saying it.

[Persivul]

And I am the king!

Uh...no you're not. Look under my avatar.

[Persivul]

HE CANT BE DEAD!

Right!

That was just so wrong.

Way to spoil it for those who haven't seen it yet...

[Persivul]

Blocky shouldn't be at L-1. Agreeing with the current wagons can be opportunistic. It can also mean that the people on those wagons are making good arguments and persuading people, which is what town is supposed to do. I rather think someone is opportunistic when they make abrupt changes from one wagon to another.

On the positive side, he noted that Ranger is buddying, which is something I thought too after Ranger proposed a town block.

Four people - Kraeg, Ocean, Kop, ETL - have post counts in the single digits. I'll bet there's 1-2 scum there. From the rest I'm suspicious of Marge and Ranger.

I hate Titus' breaking idea, but I butt heads with Titus on breaking almost every time we play together so that's not giving me a read.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Marge

[Persivul]

Asking for a town block is not buddying.

Depends on how and why it's done.

OMG
US

That's ridiculous. I've been against your claim since the beginning.

[Persivul]

So what's the significance of having a single digit post count? You make it look like post counts tell the alignment of a player. I can increase my post count by replying to every posts one by one just like what you did. I can even put my vote on a separate post just like you did. But that doesn't tell anything.

Town wins by generating information. That's the whole principle of the game. If you're not posting, you're not generating.

Yes, just looking at post counts is simplistic, as some posts are better than others and counts can be inflated with fluff. OTOH, post count is a reasonable place to start looking, particularly on D1.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Marge

Part of me says yay Marge wagon and part of me says votes like these are going to make it form like the blocky wagon you're complaining about

If it forms like that I'll reconsider, but as she's only at L-5 by my count, it's not a serious concern yet.

[Persivul]

Dear Diary,

I have learned so much from this strange game of mafia. The players think lurking isn't scummy.
Is it me or is that crazy?

You're generalizing without cause, but yeah, Kraeg's response is suspicious.

Besides the lack of reading and comprehension I'm predicting a scum win for the very first blitz mafia game.
It's sad that I get a better conversation from my Homie then I get from the players who are in this game.
Well diary, I guess I should maybe start drinking like my husband and play dumb from here on in.

Quit playing the martyr. You only have 2 votes.

Claiming outside of an agreed-upon massclaim is bad for town. In my first game here I claimed VT unprompted and took massive amounts of shit for it. A few players with big reputations can get away with it, but in general it's frowned upon.

By claiming VT, either:

- you've narrowed down the pool of potential PRs for scum to aim at, or
- you're lying

Either way it doesn't come across good.

[Persivul]

Why is when ranger doing it scummy?

It struck me as suspicious because it happened so fast:
156 - Says flubber and titus are towny
157 - Adds vedith
159 - Adds ythan

That sequence of posts struck me as odd. Not so odd to call it out right away, but when someone else noticed it too, it was worth supporting.

[Persivul]

Quit playing the martyr. You only have 2 votes.

Claiming outside of an agreed-upon massclaim is bad for town. In my first game here I claimed VT unprompted and took massive amounts of shit for it. A few players with big reputations can get away with it, but in general it's frowned upon.

By claiming VT, either:

- you've narrowed down the pool of potential PRs for scum to aim at, or
- you're lying

Either way it doesn't come across good.

Where you town or scum the game you are referring to?

Town. IIRC I replaced in during D1.

If town, then again why is this scummy to you?

For reasons stated above. Note that I did it once, but I don't do it any more, as the reasoning was explained to me and it makes sense.

BTW, I have images turned off, so don't put anything important to me in them.

[Persivul]

Hi handsome

Hello!

[Persivul]

It'll cool to see a farside post in my game but I get the feeling it doesn't belong here!

Just look at me...how could she stay away?

[Persivul]

Does anybody not find it strange that Blocky has been at L-1 for a while now, and nobody has posted intent or even hammered him.

Yep.

Does this spell an indication that scum are on his wagon?

Probably. It also indicates that the town on the wagon aren't really convinced. Just seems like inertia's keeping them there now.

[Persivul]

um.. this is a fast-paced game on a slow-paced forum, on the first actual day of posting, over Halloween weekend.... This is the laziest bullshit I've ever read.

I assumed everyone who signed up for a fast-paced game understood that it was going to be fast-paced and was prepared for it. A calendar day in this format is equivalent to 3.5 days in the standard format. Would you have a problem with calling someone out for only having a couple posts in 3.5 days?

I also don't like the appeal to fear and poo-pooing of the wagon on Blocky without any real reasoning. It's like, "everyone on the wagon is scummy for being on the wagon, not because the person they are voting is towny or anything, but just because they are voting someone." It's pretty bad.

Your opinion is yours, but no, I don't like seeing someone at L-1 this early on flimsy reasoning. But convince me...why should I vote Block?

[Persivul]

Persivul so it's not ok that a person took 24 hours over Halloween weekend to get involved but it is ok to use the same argument that the wagon grew "too quickly"? ok.

Of course.

A few posts at the equivalent of 3.5 days is suspicious. As Marge said, what kind of game is this that people are defending lack of participation?

OTOH, yes, I'd be against L-1 at 3.5 days, particularly on the flimsy evidence on Block, which was mostly that he agreed with the prevailing wagons.

[Persivul]

Because if he does flip scum you look scummy for this post?

And? Self preservation isn't my goal, and I don't see anywhere near sufficient evidence that he's scum.

[Persivul]

Anyway. Here is the wagon posts on Blocky.

#8 Marge votes. Reason - Stealing vote.
#29 Titus votes. Reason - Flash Wagon blitz.
#30 Vedith votes. Reason - Lets go lets go.
#40 Marge unvotes. Mistakenly votes for him?
#60 Firebringer votes. Reason - ??
#65 Firebringer Unvotes. Reason - Sleeping
#79 Marge revotes. Reason - Thought setup was different.
#82 Ythan votes. Reason - Kill This.
#119 Ranger votes. Reason - Agrees
#184 Firebringer revotes - For town credit
#237 Marge Unvotes. Reason - Not sure.

But I'm scummy for saying this is a bad wagon.

[Persivul]

I don't particularly care for the Blocky wagon as I have a hard on for Persivul at the moment.

Kinky.

Join me?

As long as you keep the whips and chains in the cupboard.

VOTE: Persivul

Interesting that you posted a summary showing I'm right that Block's wagon is weak, yet are now voting me.

[Persivul]

Persivul. You say what you said about my post towards Blocks wagon, blocks wagon was formed on probably the littlest thing and it ran up. You soft defending it, could be a case you know he is town, and you know he's going to flip that, you get town credit because you were the one who defended it, if Block is hammered.

White knighting is a thing for scum. OTOH, not lynching on flimsy evidence is a thing for town, or at least for good town who want to win.

[Persivul]

^ Just noting that I asked Persivul this twice and he dodged both times.

I noted back in the post in which I criticized his wagon that he picked up on a buddying vibe on Ranger that I also picked up on. That and the weakness of the evidence against him make me think that it's a bad wagon.

Also, I asked you why I should vote for block, and you dodged, since we're keeping score.

[Persivul]

Pers really doesn't look like he's trying to get someone else lynched.

Pers who should we lynch instead of Block.

Marge. She flip-flopped on the value of massclaiming and then claimed VT without a massclaim being agreed on. I do have a vote on her you know.

[Persivul]

I do have a vote on her you know.

I know, I checked your iso and saw very little else about her.

Interestingly, I checked Block's ISO and he claimed VT too. This downgrades my read on him.

[Persivul]

Iiiiimagine that.

Yeah, I figured it was a damned if I do, damned if I don't thing to mention it, but so be it.

You previously complained that I wasn't trying hard to get someone else lynched. OTOH, if I started trying hard to get some else lynched, you could likewise say "Iiiiimagine that."

[Persivul]

I'm not asking nor arguing for anyone to vote block? So I don't really know what point you're trying to get at here.

I'm getting at the fact that you dodged a question - twice now.

Do you or do not think Blocky is town? I don't really give a fuck what you think of the wagon.

Why don't you give a fuck about the quality of an L-1 wagon?

[Persivul]

Flipity flop.

You got a vote on marge but you haven't really interacted with her or pressed hard on that matter. If you want to lynch marge, you are going to have to press it harder.

I can place a vote and say the same as you. I have a vote in said person, doesn't mean zilch if your not going to press it further than that.

Most people aren't pressing hard for a lynch, which isn't surprising as we're less than halfway through D1. Do you find all such people scummy?

[Persivul]

As to the charge that I'm fence-sitting regarding Titus' plan, note that I explained that it's due to past experience. I believe that our last game together was the Dating Game. At the end, we argued about setup, I thought she was scum for it, and she turned out to be town (I was too).

Blocky shouldn't be at L-1. Agreeing with the current wagons can be opportunistic. It can also mean that the people on those wagons are making good arguments and persuading people, which is what town is supposed to do. I rather think someone is opportunistic when they make abrupt changes from one wagon to another.

On the positive side, he noted that Ranger is buddying, which is something I thought too after Ranger proposed a town block.

Four people - Kraeg, Ocean, Kop, ETL - have post counts in the single digits. I'll bet there's 1-2 scum there. From the rest I'm suspicious of Marge and Ranger.

I hate Titus' breaking idea, but I butt heads with Titus on breaking almost every time we play together so that's not giving me a read.

[Persivul]

Well, I mean I figured that Titus had a clear understanding of it, but even if she doesn't right now, the mass claim idea isn't something that surprises me coming from her. I've pretty much come to expect crazy nonsense out of her at all times. She may or may not have logical reasoning behind what she says, but I am not even going to argue her on it because that just never ends in good times.

But when that comes from you, that's not wishy-washy or fence-sitty...

[Persivul]

I was kinda hoping Titus would chime in on that when I asked someone to go over theory with me.

P edit what the hell are you even arguing? why should you vote blocky? I don't know because I'm not asking you to. ??? your question makes no sense and only serves to make noise so it looks like you are doing something when you aren't. and I don't care about

what you think of the wagon

. there's a distinct difference between that and the quality of a wagon.

Fair enough. What do you think of the quality of the wagon?

[Persivul]

I'm fence-sitting regarding Titus' plan

Nope.

X

Wrong. Fence-sitting on your read of Titus.

OK, I could have worded it better, but the argument remains. Are you picking on the wording because my explanation makes sense and you don't like to be wrong?

[Persivul]

What the hell are you talking about? I haven't changed my story. I didn't like the post where you went out of your way to give a null read on Titus.

You don't like people giving their reads in a game of mafia...got it.

[Persivul]

Your main arguments against me are that I gave reads (actually implied reads) on Titus and Block. No, it's not a misrepresentation at all. People can and do give reads any time they want. You don't have to be asked by someone before you give a read. You're starting to sound ridiculous now.

[Persivul]

@Titus:

1. I liked your old (a few months ago) avatar better

2. Why do you want a massclaim this early? As the set-up is only SEMI-open, is it really going to do a lot of good?

I'm not saying it's suspicious that you're pushing for it at this point

...but how would it benefit us?

Why?

Just to appease Titus' feelings towards you? To soften your opinion? Explain the purpose of the bolded statement.

Explained here: 229
Reiterated here: 355

To explain further, this is a complicated setup and I genuinely wanted an answer, if there is one. But, if Titus takes the question as an accusation (and coming from me she very well could), I'm less likely to get a reasoned answer, and more likely to get a defense without an answer.

[Persivul]

I'm going back to work. I made my case. Either people agree with me and vote or they don't. I'm done.

So, you came in, tunneled your first suspect hard, and closed your mind to other possibilities.

[Persivul]

Totally willing to theory chime.

I just wanted someone to go over the setup with me as I've never played it and the wiki entry is overwhelming.

Spoiler: Massive Theory

Well this will help me explain why massclaim is good so win win.

At the start of the game, the mod rolls 7 percentage dies. These correspond to the various PRs in the game and VTs.

1-50 = T (Townie)
51-65 = C (Cop)
66-75 = D (Doctor)
76-85 = V (Vigilante)
86-95 = M (Mason)
96-100 = B (Blocker)

The number of Ts directly influences how many scum are in the game. There is only one group scum and 50/50 odds of a serial killer.

Each role necessitates how many letters are in the setup. For instance, masons require at least 2 Ms. A full cop requires two Cs. We can eliminate any setup with one or thee Ms as the mod did not confirm an innocent child at the start of the day.

By structuring a mass claim day 1, we can either confirm all the PRs as town or force scum into some hard kill situations, particularly if we don't know about an SK. Neither do scum.

First PR or VT.
If we get a too many letters scenario (eight PRs), we know there must be scum in the PRs pool).
Then we go to number of letters. Full cops would claim dual letters, same with a one shot doctor (as a one shot doctor cannot exist without a full doctor).
Then, we claim the actual letters. Anyone dual letter claiming without a letter underneath is autoscum.

We also know the setup within a handful of possibilities, dependent on actual claims.

What stops scum from just claiming VT and then picking off the PRs?

[Persivul]

@Persivul, Their night kills would be dictated most of the game. Please don't ask me to repeat myself again. This is the second time that's been asked by you.

Dictated at PRs. How in the world does that help town more than scum?

[Persivul]

I still disagree with you over dating game. We went your way and in the end got lucky.

[Persivul]

I was kinda hoping Titus would chime in on that when I asked someone to go over theory with me.

P edit what the hell are you even arguing? why should you vote blocky? I don't know because I'm not asking you to. ??? your question makes no sense and only serves to make noise so it looks like you are doing something when you aren't. and I don't care about

what you think of the wagon

. there's a distinct difference between that and the quality of a wagon.

Fair enough. What do you think of the quality of the wagon?

Well? It's an important question.

If you think it's a good wagon, what's your support?

If you think it's a bad wagon, why are you scum reading me for saying the same?

There's nothing wrong or unusual for town to voice that they think an L-1 wagon is bad, particularly when less than 25% into phase.

[Persivul]

I was kinda hoping Titus would chime in on that when I asked someone to go over theory with me.

P edit what the hell are you even arguing? why should you vote blocky? I don't know because I'm not asking you to. ??? your question makes no sense and only serves to make noise so it looks like you are doing something when you aren't. and I don't care about

what you think of the wagon

. there's a distinct difference between that and the quality of a wagon.

Fair enough. What do you think of the quality of the wagon?

Well? It's an important question.

If you think it's a good wagon, what's your support?

If you think it's a bad wagon, why are you scum reading me for saying the same?

There's nothing wrong or unusual for town to voice that they think an L-1 wagon is bad, particularly when less than 25% into phase.

@ETL, If I helped Percival into his grave, would you help me lynch Blocky? The same people objecting to both our desired lynch targets are also objecting to the massclaim so...

I need more information about him. At the moment he just seems like a VI/noob. I don't really see anything super incriminating in his ISO.

[Persivul]

Come on, ETL, you scum read me for saying Blocky's wagon was bad, so you must think it's good.

Here, I'll make it easy for you:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Blocky

[Persivul]

That's really really bad... why would you vote for a wagon you think is bad? I don't understand.

Because it's hilarious to watch you now say it's bad.

So, are you scum white knighting? Or do you agree that it makes sense for town to point out when they think an L-1 wagon is bad?

[Persivul]

Ranger, if Blocky is town, what does that make you think of Pers?

Won't change my opinion. My reads form independently from one another. (Bad stuff happens otherwise.) Interactions augmenting my observations are just a bonus. I think BlockyMan is scum.
I think Persivul's vote was bad, maybe scum-bad.
I still don't have a townread on you.

BlockyMan flipping town or flipping scum doesn't change my stance on either you or Persivul. Persivul's alignment wouldn't change my stance on you or BlockyMan. And yours doesn't change my opinion on them, either.

My BlockyMan scumread is stronger than any Persivul suspicion, though, and there's a strong wagon already present, so he is the player that I am pursuing.

For the record, I voted Blocky for two reasons:

1. Show ETL's hypocrisy and the hollowness of his argument against me. I was confident he wouldn't vote Blocky.

2. If Blocky does get lynched, at this point I think we'll get decent information from the flip, and I'll likely be vindicated, except of course for wifom charges.

[Persivul]

Your argument seems overly nitpicky. If you hate Persivul's (the people on the wagon are scummy) why not have him talk more? Sure I think Persivul is being an idiot ATM but not a scummy one.

His turn on you is good as well.

His "turn"? You've got to be kidding me Titus...

*sigh*

I feel like you aren't really reading the posts and just want to push your thing on Blocky. It's really stretching and I get that if you're town you want to push it through to see if you are right, but I don't see it and I explained why.

Persivul's posts are increasingly bad, and I'm quite disappointed with people's inability to even digest the argument.

I'm gonna give this game 24 hours but I'm starting to regret continuing with this playerlist against my better judgement.

Banging you head against a wall does seem to have more appeal then this game.
I was slightly scum reading persivul mostly because his whole scum read is based on something he did as town.
That logic makes about as much sense as:

Spoiler:

Vote: persivul

It was kinda apparent from before, but FWIW...if you want to keep your alts to yourself, you need a different image source, as "farside22" is part of the image's address.

[Persivul]

This post is much more interesting now that we know you're farside:

I feel sad now knowing the set up had more possiblities and getting a vt role

From Marge, a newbie to the site, it's reasonable that you clicked the wrong link and misunderstood the setup. From farside, who's been here forever and frequently mods games herself, it's bullshit. You pulled the "feel sad" bit to sneak in a VT claim without being too obvious about it. Tactical reasons to do so:

If you're scum, you get the claim in early, probably because you were afraid of being picked late in a popcorn massclaim and your options might have been limited.

If you're town and you're telling the truth, you're just playing for self preservation. You make it less likely that scum will NK you, and therefore more likely that they'll hit a PR, which is anti-town.

If you're town and you're lying (i.e. a pR trying to protect yourself), counting the Marge BS about setup, that's your second lie already. A LAL PL isn't a bad play for D1.

So, are you scum, anti-town, or a liar?

[Persivul]

I'm not saying it's suspicious that you're pushing for it at this point...but how would it benefit us?

Why are you going out of your way to tell Titus that you don't suspect her instead of directly asking the question?

Why are you asking questions that I've already answered?
380

[Persivul]

Scum whiteknighting detected. Persivul didn't "hold his own" in his argument with EspeciallyTheLies. He floundered around and was unable to come up with solid explanations for his stance on the Blocky wagon. Only problem is, I'm not sure if he's scum or just a bad player horrible at articulating his thoughts.

The Blocky wagon formed with very little reason given. This is like charging that an atheist floundered when challenged to prove that god DOESN'T exist. The BOP isn't on the atheist, who may simply feel that the evidence is underwhelming. SImilarly, the BOP is on the L-1 wagoners, and they didn't give much evidence at all. I addressed the point about him pointing fingers at two people with wagons forming. Is there another specific charge against him that you have in mind?

[Persivul]

So Persivul just jumped on the Blocky wagon, which he thinks is a bad wagon. Seems like a way to save himself from the wagon forming on him. But right now, I think he's null.

So Persivul just jumped on the Blocky wagon, which he thinks is a bad wagon. Seems like a way to save himself from the wagon forming on him. But right now, I think he's null.

You don't think thats scummy?
Thats interesting.

As noted, the vote's purpose was to show ETL's hypocrisy. His main point against me is that I said the Blocky wagon was bad. When he rejected Titus' arguments for a Blocky vote, he showed that he agreed with me. THis vote was the icing on the cake. Further, as Blocky has been a main focus of the discussion, his flip would likely provide valuable information.

It also shows that the people not on the wagon think it's weak, as no one declared intent.

That said, the vote has served its purpose.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Marge

[Persivul]

Marge opposes massclaim in:
17 31 34 36

Marge claims she was looking at wrong setup, even though she's really farside and knows damn well how the site works:
40

Marge sneaks in a VT claim under the guise of feeling sad:
44

Marge continues to oppose the massclaim even now that she supposedly has the right setup, and makes a fake newbie comment about the scum relying on the SK:
45 47

Flubber votes Marge for opposing the massclaim while claiming VT herself. Marge argues that she opposed the massclaim due to looking at the wrong setup. That again seems unlikely for farside. But even if true, as noted above, she continued to oppose it even after her supposed error was corrected:
79

She claims that she has no issue now that she's on the correct setup, even though she expressed continued issues in 45 and 47, after she was supposedly corrected:
112

Vedith asks why she claimed and she dodges:
113

Other points:

In 79, she's responding to Flubber, but then makes a completely unexplained vote on Blocky. (Yet I'm scummy for questioning the Blocky wagon.)

On a personal note, she made a Walking Dead spoiler without using spoiler tags. That alone deserves a vote.

[Persivul]

First link: "Scum will lie or get info."

That opposes mass claim.

[Persivul]

Let's take a closer look at the Blocky wagon.

Vote: blocky

for stealing my vote.

Obviously an RVS vote from Marge.

We're not a hydra Vedith.

P.S. Blocky lurking has been noted.

Ok. blocky is confscum though not fire although fire can be his buddy

VOTE: Blocky

Let's flash wagon Blocky in a blitz. Lol.

Titus votes him for lurking...a charge she made

24 minutes

into the game.

UNVOTE: FB
VOTE: Blocky

LEts go lets go!

Vedith sheeps Titus.

VOTE: Blockyman

Firebringer gives no explanation. That was his first post of the game.

I feel sad now knowing the set up had more possiblities and getting a vt role

Actually

VOTE: marge

opposes massclaim

claims role

I thought the set up was different.

Is it a thing not to read the game for you?

Vote: blocky

Marge had changed her vote. She makes a response to flubber, then votes for Blocky with no explanation.

VOTE: BlockyMan

Kill this.

Ythan, in his second post of the game, votes Blocky without explanation.

blocky is confscum

Agreed.

VOTE: BlockyMan.

Ranger, in his first post, votes blocky based on Titus. As we saw, Titus's reasoning was that Blocky had been lurking for all of 24 minutes.

Blocky says the only other two players with votes at the time are scum. I'd love to know why he thought so.

Ythan makes this complaint well after his vote.

Free towncredit for the person to bring BlockyMan to L-1.

Ranger pushes for an L-1.

VOTE: Blocky
For that town cred yo.

Firebringer votes merely "For that town cred yo."

It was at this point in the voting that I said Blocky shouldn't be at L-1.

There's nothing wrong with town pointing out how weak this L-1 wagon was. In fact, more people should have been doing so.

[Persivul]

is no one going to comment on the fact that pers hasn't unvoted blocky despite it all being a "reaction test"?

508

[Persivul]

I'll be really sad if Marge really is a farside alt

Yesterday I hit Quote on a Marge post that contained an image, and the image link was to a photobucket account under the name of farside22. So, yeah, Marge is a farside alt. Plus of course there's the two posts by farside in the thread, one for me - and Marge now has a vote on me.

[Persivul]

* one with a vote for me

[Persivul]

Why do people use Hyrdras? I never have quite grasped the whole of it, or it's whole purpose.

Hydras - two or ore people in a single account - are used to spread the workload or to bounce ideas with someone I suppose. I've never seen the point either, and I hate them. If a game has more than one I generally won't join.

Alts - two or more accounts for one person - are used to avoid meta reads. Again, I don't see the point. Too easy to slip up (we've had two slips in this game already), and then the alt isn't worth much. Plus it would IMO be too much work to try to change your writing style.

[Persivul]

Also my title is awesome, so using an alt would be a waste.

[Persivul]

@Kop

This is an interesting progression:

263 - You respond to the post in which I said Blocky's wagon was bad, commented on Ranger's proposed town block, and commented on lurkers.

You completely ignored the part about Blocky

, only commenting on town blocks and lurkers. So, you didn't think my position on the Blocky wagon was an issue.

307 - You list the votes on Blocky and note that they lack substance. So, you seem to agree with me.

313 - You vote me without explanation, at ETL's request.

316 - You make a weak wifom argument which you could have made back in 263 if you thought it had merit.

Other than sheeping ETL, you've mostly talked about the breaking issue or just made small talk. There's very little original scum hunting coming from you.

[Persivul]

Forgot to use post tags:

@Kop

This is an interesting progression:

263 - You respond to the post in which I said Blocky's wagon was bad, commented on Ranger's proposed town block, and commented on lurkers.

You completely ignored the part about Blocky

, only commenting on town blocks and lurkers. So, you didn't think my position on the Blocky wagon was an issue.

307 - You list the votes on Blocky and note that they lack substance. So, you seem to agree with me.

313 - You vote me without explanation, at ETL's request.

316 - You make a weak wifom argument which you could have made back in 263 if you thought it had merit.

Other than sheeping ETL, you've mostly talked about the breaking issue or just made small talk. There's very little original scum hunting coming from you.

[Persivul]

Pers why did you wait so long to unvote?

I didn't see any danger of a hammer. He had been at L-1 before and no one declared intent. It's apparent that the people not already on it aren't interested in it. Hell, you made a defense of him to Titus. But for some reason it's scummy that I did so.

[Persivul]

I saw a crappy L-1 wagon and pointed it out.

Why is it nonsense for town to do that?

[Persivul]

As I've stated previously, you can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on the wagon to show why he's scummy. I've shown clearly that they hadn't come remotely close to doing that. Therefore, the wagon was bad. I didn't need to prove that Blocky was town in order to reasonably oppose that wagon.

[Persivul]

ProHawk replaces BlockyMan.

I hope you're town, and a good defender. This has gotten ridiculous.

[Persivul]

As I've stated previously, you can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on the wagon to show why he's scummy. I've shown clearly that they hadn't come remotely close to doing that. Therefore, the wagon was bad. I didn't need to prove that Blocky was town in order to reasonably oppose that wagon.

I didn't ask you to prove he was town.

I asked if you thought he was town.

I don't know - there's not enough to go on.

Point is that I don't need to town read him in order to judge that the wagon is bad. There just wasn't enough evidence presented to warrant L-1. Lynches that are not discussed adequately are not in town's favor.

[Persivul]

Is it an actual miscommunication going on here that is preventing you from understanding what I'm saying or are you twisting words on purpose? I'm trying to understand why you seem completely unable to respond directly.

p-edit: hi prohawk.

Personally I think your head is so far into your tunnel that you'll never be able to see out of it, and that's why you don't understand me. Note that I haven't voted you or pushed you, as I think this is TvT and you're just stuck in your ego and can't let it go. Within our argument, I'm more concerned about Kop shifting gears without reason.

[Persivul]

p-edit: I strongly think Persivul is scum. His argument against your wagon was the fact that it had a lot of votes on it. Check his ISO, you will see it right there. I said that was bad, along with several of his other posts that I didn't like, and then Titus asked me to help push your slot. I asked her for the case because I didn't feel strongly about him. She gave me a bunch of IIoA and crappy PBPA which I dismantled into it's relevant points (one, maybe two items), which Persivul has now appropriated in an attempt to say

"You're doing the same thing as me so why am I scummy for it?"

I encourage you to read both of our ISOs and come to your own conclusion.

Yep.

[Persivul]

I haven't seen enough from Ocean to have any strong feelings but would not object to a wagon there.

p-edit: How is that even an answer to my question.... I asked you a question and it took over 24 hours and 100 posts for you to answer me straight.

Because, as noted, the question is a red herring.

I don't need to personally have a read on Blocky to see that the evidence presented against him is insufficient to warrant L-1.

How is it that you don't understand this concept?

[Persivul]

p-edit: I read every post.

Except the one where I changed my vote from Blocky to Margeside...

[Persivul]

So, you think I'm town, but you like poking at me because....?

...you're a tunnely douchebag who's letting scum coast.

A town read means I don't vote you. It doesn't mean I'm sharing warm showers with you. I'd only do that with Margeside, and I think she's scummy.

[Persivul]

I share showers with all my town reads.
We have fun in there, we make sure we reach all the tough places.

You need your town buddies, trust your town buddies!

Sorry...once you go scum, it's the only way to come.

[Persivul]

Just added it to my playlist...

[Persivul]

Just for a serious moment.
Kop scum
Persivul is scum which makes me sad. He is much more wise then the crap he is pulling out.

Yeah, I know you don't like it when I'm pulling out.

Now...why did you claim VT?

[Persivul]

You want to explain why you agree with him since you claimed, or will you backtrack and say you weren't claiming at all now?

There are differences between your claim and Titus's.

Titus was advocating a massclaim, so it makes sense that she would claim to get it started. I still don't like her claim, but it's at least consistent with her position.

OTOH, you were arguing against the massclaim, but claimed anyway, which is obviously suspicious. You have tried to argue that you were only against the massclaim because you were looking at the wrong setup, but I showed previously that you were still against it after being corrected on the setup.

Also, you tried to sneak in your claim in a newbie

aw shucks I wish I had gotten a fun power role

manner, which adds to the suspicion, especially now as we know who you are.

[Persivul]

You left obvious crumb. There.

Ummm Titus....I don't crumb.

lolol

Oh, well that makes me feel better.

Donut = cop. Lol.

And if you think he's crumbing cop...why are you pointing it out?

First note that not everyone crumbs. I don't. He might just like donuts.

Second, if he was crumbing, he was doing so for a reason - likely hoping that a doc is looking closely for crumbs, while maybe the scum aren't. It's generally not good for town to just go and expose someone's crumbs without reason.

[Persivul]

I mean you just jumped off the probably conf-town Kraeg to sheep Titus.

Neither of those is something I can help but say something cruel about.

Kraeg has 11 posts in which he basically:

Protested the massclaim proposal, then

Switched to Marge for claiming VT.

I agree with him on both counts, but neither was original or controversial. It seems premature to proclaim him "probably conf-town."

On what basis do you view him so positively?

[Persivul]

It's certainly a good enough townslip for the day.

I don't think it's a townslip as any scumfuck would know they had a PT most likely.

OK, I recall the townslip point now. I also don't see it at all as a town slip.

[Persivul]

Marge: Flubbernugget, Persivul, Ythan, Kraeg (4)
ProHawk: Vedith, Ranger (2)

I really don't like how ProHawk has done nothing to remove the suspicion on his slot and yet the wagon on him has dissolved.

OTOH, the wagon on Margeside is growing, and you've had her in your scum pool from the beginning. Looks like an opportunity...

[Persivul]

@Margeside:

I think I'll have more fun in the dead thread seeing persivul try to make up a new scum read, since he hasn't really said anything about any other scum reads.

In 527 I started a case on Kop and nothing's happened to reduce my suspicion there. But:

- I'm more suspicious of you
- There's just a little more than a day left in phase, you have a wagon, and Kop doesn't

This is the time to see if your wagon is viable, not the time to try to start a new one from scratch.

[Persivul]

If I was able to dismantle my wagon by doing nothing, it goes to show how strong of a case it was built on no?

^^ This

[Persivul]

Hi Vonflare

[Persivul]

I put a note that is an sk exsist Titus being the sk would not surprise me.

Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me either. SK crumbs as vig, promises direct help, later claims vig (pointing to the crumbs) and asks for doctor protection. Probably selected BP over investigation immune, so pointing out the cop crumb to get scum to help with the dirty work. Neat plan. Sounds like something Titus would do.

But I suppose that theory's too over the top to be true...

[Persivul]

You two can definitely be not group scum. The interpretation is wrong, but I did everything said

Like choose BP over investigation immunity? Is that a slip?

and you don't know I am town. So you'd be dumb not to consider it.

The vig crumbs were apparent. Those could benefit either a vig or an SK making a vig fakeclaim, so I didn't mention those at the time.

Outing the possible cop crumb doesn't benefit a vig. It could benefit a SK. Have scum do your dirty work for you. If you're concerned there's a doc, you also target cop, as doc only stops one kill.

In hindsight, your push for a massclaim without being able to convey the town benefits makes perfect sense. If there's a real vig, your plan won't work, so you need to know.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Titus

[Persivul]

I meant the vig crumbs and the highlighting I thought FB was crumbing so he'd tone it down.

That sentence doesn't make much sense. Are you saying you explicitly pointed out FB's crumbing so that he'd tone it down? Cause that makes absolutely no sense.

I'd never take BP though if I was SK. Check Titus n1 is de facto rule one in 99.9% of games. I'm suspicious if a cop doesn't check me N1. I considered the "BP" thing as speculation. SKs select the BP/Investigation immune pregame. I couldn't take BP planning on crumbs. Doubly so considering I suck with crumbs.

You could take BP if you thought you could find a cop with a massclaim, which you pushed for hard.

You're either vig or SK. Blatantly pointing out a cop crumb was anti-town. So you're stupid or you're SK, and we all know you're not stupid. That just leaves SK.

[Persivul]

Said 1 v 1 would be resolved with bullets.

No, it would be resolved with rope.

Further, it's not really a 1v1 situation, because the setup allows for more than one vig. You know that. There's also a 48% chance that there's no vig at all. So, CCs (or lack thereof) don't mean much in this setup.

[Persivul]

Said 1 v 1 would be resolved with bullets.

No, it would be resolved with rope.

Further, it's not really a 1v1 situation, because the setup allows for more than one vig. You know that. There's also a 48% chance that there's no vig at all. So, CCs (or lack thereof) don't mean much in this setup.

No. I'm confirmed town if there's a full vig and no other 1-shot vig as a one shot vig is required to have a full vig.

A 1 shot vig happening twice requires a full vig as well.

So if someone CCs me, we just shoot each other.

Hence, any other one shot vig should claim.

There's plenty other scenarios like this. Hence why claiming is good. Of course, I just laid that out so

Scratch that last part...

I'm not conftown if a vig claims. Derp. Got my lines backwards.

Correct. CCs prove nothing regarding vigs/SKs in this setup.

Resolving Vig CCs with bullets would tell us a lot if we had massclaimed and thus prevent the very scenario you describe.

Again, CCs prove nothing regarding vigs/SKs in this setup.

[Persivul]

I totally want a high five if you are the sk.

You will totally get it. I believe your comment got me thinking in that direction, and it just clearly unfolded as phase progressed.

[Persivul]

Let's consider also that vigs can be a net detriment to town. So:

If you think Titus is scum, you should vote her.
If you think Titus is SK, you should vote her.
If you think Titus is vig and don't trust her with the gun, you should vote her.

The only reason NOT to vote Titus is if you believe she's SK, AND trust her judgment on who to shoot each night.

[Persivul]

In the mean time your whole case is based on something you did as town and called it scummy.

1. What in the world are you talking about?

2. Consider saving it for D2 and joining the Titus wagon.

[Persivul]

So why did you point out the cop crumb?

[Persivul]

Because it was obvious.

I missed it at first.

At first I wanted to make sure

we

didn't target the same person.

Did you just admit that you were helping scum find a target?

When FB said he wasn't crumbing, there was zero harm in stating it.

He only needed to say it because you had already stated that he made an obvious crumb. The damage had already been done. People crumb PRs. Scum want to kill PRs, so they would have looked back and found it.

[Persivul]

It could be a crumb, or it could be the fact that he loves dougnuts, and as no relevance to the game?

Sure could, but that's not the point. The point is that Titus THOUGHT it was a crumb, and stated openly that she had seen him crumb. In her mind, she was helping scum find a target.

[Persivul]

We would be me and FB. Shooting FB's cop target makes it worthless.

Scum would have seen it anyway. Any American poster would have come to that conclusion.

Outing FB and getting him killed makes his investigation worthless, and gives you no more information regarding who he's going to investigate anyway.

If you were vig and saw that crumb, you would have kept it to yourself and watched FB to see who he was questioning, and try to determine from that what players he might investigate.

[Persivul]

It could be a crumb, or it could be the fact that he loves dougnuts, and as no relevance to the game?

Sure could, but that's not the point. The point is that Titus THOUGHT it was a crumb, and stated openly that she had seen him crumb. In her mind, she was helping scum find a target.

Or gasp, I was trying to have FB be more subtle.

So you tried to get him to crumb more subtly by

blatantly telling everyone he had made an obvious crumb

. That's idiotic, and you're not an idiot.

[Persivul]

I can't read FB's future actions for shit. Being explicit helps both.

Outing him as a PR

helps him die.

[Persivul]

In what world would scum point out a crumb to the town?
I would think they would keep that to themselves for NK.

lol, Persivul trying to frame Titus as scum so hard its not even funny.

RTFT. I don't think Titus is scum, I think she's SK, and as such she benefits if scum take out a PR.

[Persivul]

I would be voting Persivul if I wasn't voting Ocean right now.
The case on Titus is just bad.

She would be much better scum than this if she was scum.

So what, you think if you misrepresent my case on her enough times people will start to believe it?

[Persivul]

Where is everyone from? How old are you?

You first.

[Persivul]

Pennsylvania, 51.

[Persivul]

Where is everyone from? How old are you?

You first.

Grand Rapids, MI via New York City. I'm 30.

Your point?

Just havin fun, getting some perspective on other players, getting to know yall.

Bullshit. They don't say yall in Grand Rapids or NYC. What are you hiding????

FOS: ETL

[Persivul]

@Vonflare, Both. Pers and Marge were casing me as SK based on my vig crumbs being too obvious.

To expand:

Marge made a comment awhile back that she wouldn't be surprised if Titus were SK. This got me thinking and watching.

I rarely notice crumbs, but I saw Titus crumbing vig. Crumbing vig and then fakeclaiming it would be a neat play for a SK, and Titus loves neat plays.

She began the game by pushing hard for a massclaim. A massclaim would be good for a SK, as it gives PR targets. It doesn't do much for a vig, as scum would likely just claim VT.

Then she pointed out that FB had made a possible cop crumb. This serves no town purpose, but would be good for a SK, as it puts scum onto the cop.

Look at my ISO next to his and Flubbers. His derails wagons without calling the poster town (Blocky/ProHawk). He has zero interactions with Marge. He flails when caught and tries to paint himself as a victim. His reads are largely OMGUS but for a shit read on Ranger. He doesn't want to have townreads.

Yes, please do look at my ISO and compare it to her summary.

[Persivul]

Because we had this same fight in Street Racers about Amateur. I was right and convinced town wouldn't be that wrong that overconfidently and ignore me.

How many times are you bringing this up?

Yeah, you were right that time, and you caught scum on post 29 once. We get it.

You've probably played hundreds of games. I'm sure you've been right quite a few times. That doesn't mean much here.

Why don't you tell about the time that as VT you fakeclaimed doc and then the real PR CC'd and got killed?

[Persivul]

22 hours left in phase, the biggest wagon is at L-3, and there's only a few of us talking...just sayin'...

[Persivul]

I don't do "neat plays" that gain nothing. I don't claim early unless forced to do so. My play has purpose to coordinate town and leave scum no where to hide.

You recycled all your gripes and included none of my responses which disprove your assertions.

You outed crumbs you felt were obvious but griped about me doing the same thing.

U had town motivation to ensure that FB remained hidden and we didn't target the same person. Obviously, you don't have that concern, so you outed my crumbs why?

Just to case me?

Previously addressed in 820. The play for a true vig is to keep the crumb to himself and watch for clues. A player with your 5-1 ratio of successes would know that. Therefore, you're not a vig.

[Persivul]

@Pers, In my place, who would you shoot (suppose I am vig).

Makes absolutely no difference. I don't have a taste for red herring.

[Persivul]

Oh my...

[Persivul]

ETL name who you would lynch today besides titus

Poking the bear...

[Persivul]

If you do the sex right (and I always do ) you don't need drugs. Sleep and food are still good though.

[Persivul]

Who said the drugs were for sex?

No one. I'm so good that you'd never need drugs again...simply remembering would be a high better than any drug.

[Persivul]

Anyway, about that Titus lynch we're presently accomplishing

Not much to do about it until more people show up. Unless someone on one of the lesser wagons wants to push their choice hard, all the people on those wagons should move to Ocean or Titus.

[Persivul]

Sex makes Ythan uncomfortable. We should talk more about how good it will feel when Titus flips red.

Nope...blue, or whatever color SK is.

[Persivul]

What's the vote count at?

I'd figure it out, but I've done that and then had ungrateful dipshits charge me with active lurking for it...

Mod can we get a vote count please?

[Persivul]

Thanks for the counts...but you're a coupla active lurkers!!!

[Persivul]

I know you're not talking to me, because my title is His Majesty the King.

@Marge...our song just came up on my playlist...

[Persivul]

Meditate on my title, child.

So what's your title mean?

[Persivul]

I don't get it. You don't need to be smart to be king....

[Persivul]

you're a coupla active lurkers!!!

....? I don't think you know what that means?

Also, I love how you brag about your title like it means anything lol... Titles are completely worthless these days.

Hey, the game that got me that was about the funnest game of ever.

[Persivul]

I know that's the joke.

Nice...

[Persivul]

Time to head home...see yinz later...

P-edit: no, it's much easier to remember a title than ten thousand posts.

[Persivul]

This game exploded fast.
Anyone want to give me a break down?

You previously said that you wouldn't be surprised if Titus were a SK. I started watching her and agreed, then made a case. I think she's been crumbing vig with the intention of fakeclaiming it. She says she really is a vig. What finally convinced me was that she outed a potential cop crumb. There's no town motivation to do that.

[Persivul]

Fucking yikes how do you claim vig un cc'd and still get wagoned that fucking hard

I'm assuming no cc because she's not dead yet

1. By potentially outing a cop

2. The setup can have multiple vigs or no vig at all - CCs or lack thereof don't mean much.

[Persivul]

@Ranger: you took three quick votes, so you put on your 20/20 hindsight glasses and criticize the Titus wagon to try to move attention away from yourself. That's pretty transparent. Guess what - D1 lynch is usually town. Titus brought it on herself by shining a spotlight on a potential cop crumb. That made much more sense for an SK than for town. Her explanation - that she didn't want to vig the same person as the cop investigated - made no sense, as outing the cop doesn't give her any more info on who he might investigate.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Marge.
Would also vote Persivul or EspeciallyTheLies from what I've read so far.

And you know this... how?

Because they've flipped or are town.

Sex makes Ythan uncomfortable. We should talk more about how good it will feel when Titus flips red.

This is so...fake.
VOTE: EspeciallyTheLies.
Scumread there is stronger than on Marge now.

Because...yeah. That's not a town player who legitimately thinks they're lynching scum. It's a scum player who is making a random effort to fake surprise after the townflip.

Two votes in three posts...panic much?

[Persivul]

Similarly, my Ythan townread is increasingly taking a hit for his demeaning attitude towards everyone.

How is that alignment indicative?

[Persivul]

VOTE: ocean

That came out of the blue.

VOTE: Ranger

Vote: Ranger

Sure.

VOTE: Ranger

VOTE: ythan

Ythan sucks at this game.

VOTE: Ocean

Six bare votes in the span of 13 posts. Can we get some reasoning for these? If it's a carryover from D1, can you summarize or give a link to a post explaining it?

[Persivul]

VOTE: Marge.
Would also vote Persivul or EspeciallyTheLies from what I've read so far.

And you know this... how?

Because they've flipped or are town.

Sex makes Ythan uncomfortable. We should talk more about how good it will feel when Titus flips red.

This is so...fake.
VOTE: EspeciallyTheLies.
Scumread there is stronger than on Marge now.

Because...yeah. That's not a town player who legitimately thinks they're lynching scum. It's a scum player who is making a random effort to fake surprise after the townflip.

Two votes in three posts...panic much?

Have I said recently it makes me sad to see you as scum?

Yes. You then usually say that you'll present a case on me...then say you don't have time to do so. You do have plenty of time to find pictures and videos to post instead of coherent arguments though. That's part of why you're number 1 in my scum pool (full reads list coming by tomorrow). And it doesn't make me sad in the slightest.

Regarding what you quoted...what's your issue? Ranger took some quick bare votes and panicked. In my experience that's more likely to come from scum than from town. Do you disagree?

[Persivul]

Reads preview:

Town - Flubber, ETL
Lean town - Ythan

Lean scum - Kop
Scum - Margeside

Will sort the rest later.

Maybe people could put up reads instead of bare votes so we actually have something to analyze...

[Persivul]

Vote: Ranger

I checked your ISO and that was literally the first time you've mentioned Ranger - with a bare vote.

[Persivul]

I mean I could point out I started a wagon on Kop for a good reason and that persivul avoids pushing a wagon on the player he says is a scum read.

Yes, you could point that out, as you have a poor memory and don't mind lying. But the fact is that pornhawk started the wagon, and then you joined without giving reason:

I am intrigued at the argument of Titus SK but I don't really want to lynch her oddly enough.

VOTE: kop

Can we lynch this instead?

And the time I thought I was going to get is gone.

vote; Kop

Also would go back to voting persivul

I could also point out persivul took something that was a theory and pushed it but his scum reads are unchanged for no reason stated.

Why would I need to give a reason when my reads DON'T change?

If you're referring to the Titus flip, my case on Titus was in no way based on associatives. Further, I thought she was an independent SK, not scum. There's no reason to expect my scum reads to change on her flip. You're grasping at straws.

You're just digging your hole deeper.

VOTE: Marge

[Persivul]

What a waste of time... playing with a bunch of stubborn, blind egos.

Oh...my...goodness...

[Persivul]

A wagon was building on ocean. If ocean has a scum pr and you don't it's a reasonable thing to go "LYNCH ME LYNCH ME" instead of breaking the wagon down (which you kinda did anyway)

The problem is there's no way to tell without an ocean flip

So that post is more frustration than useful scumhunting

Whiskey tango...

So ETL is a goon and ocean is a scum PR.
ETL is on ocean's wagon.
Ocean's wagon is getting too big.
Instead of just moving to another wagon, ETL offers to sacrifice herself.

That's some reaching...like moon landing was a hoax reaching.

[Persivul]

Whiskey tango...

wtf....

Exactly.. The foxtrot was implied by the ...

[Persivul]

Whiskey tango...

wtf....

Exactly.. The foxtrot was implied by the ...

Actually... "whiskey tango" is specifically used to mean "white trash" and is generally recognized as such. I was wondering why you were insulting Flubber out of fuckin nowhere.

I've never heard that. I'll have to include the foxtrot in the future. I've done "whiskey tango..." a lot on here, so either it's not as commonly known as you think...or people think I'm a fucking asshole.

[Persivul]

Firebringer's ISO reads like a heckler at open mike night. He just criticizes other people's pushes but doesn't make any of his own. I forgot that he even advocated no lynch at one point.

[Persivul]

Firebringer's ISO reads like a heckler at open mike night. He just criticizes other people's pushes but doesn't make any of his own. I forgot that he even advocated no lynch at one point.

I wouldn't mind lynching him either, but I prefer getting the ocean flip first.

In thread ocean hasn't pinged me. I need to read her ISO. What are the top points of the case on her?

[Persivul]

ocean blows a fart
flubbernugget wants a whiff
facepalm cat says meow

[Persivul]

In thread ocean hasn't pinged me. I need to read her ISO. What are the top points of the case on her?

Are you trying to outdo Flubber as far as dumb is concerned or do you not know how to read the "pronoun" section of someone's profile tag?

I didn't notice
oceanwind's a feminine
guy name are you gay

[Persivul]

oceanwind has three
two others have two votes each
marge should have some more

[Persivul]

I didn't notice
oceanwind's a feminine
guy name are you gay

Sorry to lead you astray
I'm as straight as Flub is dumb
I don't swing that way

count on your fingers
your first line has too many
it should just have five

[Persivul]

someone please tell me
what the charges are on him
and maybe we will

[Persivul]

time for me to go
my wife has put her ankles
behind her ears...yay

[Persivul]

nobody sees marge
as guilty as I see her
VOTE: firebringer

[Persivul]

Persivul that vote is terrible, should be on ocean.

Why?

I've been asking for the case and all I've gotten so far is that titus said to. I'll read ocean's ISO today but in the meantime it would help if you gave me your reasoning.

[Persivul]

I am a accountant,

Me too. I'm a CPA working in corporate and partnership taxation. What do you do?

[Persivul]

Hey guys are you bored of the game or do you just post less on weekends

That's something that we should probably talk to zor about postgame

I had to pick up my sister at the airport and run her around yesterday. Today I'm going to the Steelers-Raiders game and that will eat up most of the day. But IMO the game's moving reasonably well.

Your 1363 on ocean was underwhelming, and his 1376 was a good response. Who else could you vote today?

[Persivul]

Vote Count #2.4:

Not Voting:

Kop

17 hours left and no vote. Seems like scum that doesn't want VCA used against him in late game.

[Persivul]

Vote Count #2.4:

Not Voting:

Kop

17 hours left and no vote. Seems like scum that doesn't want VCA used against him in late game.

That is an excellent observation on quoting my no vote.

But you said the answer yourself, there is 17 hours left.

What are you reads with 17 hours left?

[Persivul]

Awaiting intent to hammer before a claim, but I'd rather not. In the mean time I really think the Firebringer wagon is a good one, and that he and the other first two currently on my wagon are worth a look tomorrow should I be lynched now and not around then to pursue it.

Agreed. All of my current scum reads (Marge, FB, Kop) are on your wagon, and Marge & FB are first on.

[Persivul]

Twelve hours to go. Ranger, your lone vote on ETL isn't doing any good. Can you move it to another wagon?

[Persivul]

If that's not scum coaching a buddy, I don't know what is.... wow....

Yeah, because town never urges people to consolidate wagons as deadline approaches. You're really reaching.

[Persivul]

There's already a player at L-2 (Ythan). There are 3 other wagons, with a total of 6 players for you to "urge to choose a wagon. Even excluding your preferred wagon, that's still 3 - besides ranger, me and flubber. But you don't bother talking to either me or flubber. Just Ranger.

So.... yeah. That's coaching, as opposed to encouraging people to consolidate.

First note that Ythan is at L-1. There's an error in the VC.

1426 - I pushed the person with no vote at 17 hours

1440 - I pushed the person with a lone vote at 12 hours.

See the progression?

If you and flubber are still on a 2-person wagon in a few hours, yes, I'll push you as well.

[Persivul]

3) Failing to have any real reads, e.g. supposedly scumreading Marge on D1 but not interacting with her at all, whatsoever.

Wow, now you're reaching to the point of outright, demonstrable lies.

110 114 117 230 232 233 235 for starters. Anyone can do a double ISO of us and see more.

[Persivul]

Interesting. So it's more about the opportunity to lynch, and less about actually scumreading someone?

There's more than one scum, and people do or should have more than one scum read. If deadline's approaching, your top scum read doesn't have a viable wagon, but your second or third scum read does have a wagon going, you move your vote. I daresay someone does this in 99% of mafia games. You're so caught up in your tunnel vision conf bias that you're completely misinterpreting really common practices.

[Persivul]

I'm going to assume that everything else in the case is correct then since that was your only response lol...

weak.

The rest has been discussed

ad nauseam

and you're well aware of that.

[Persivul]

Here's ETL's progression from reading Ocean as town and defending him against Titus, to voting him "because Titus said to."

Town
{OceanWind, Ythan, Kraeg, Flubber}

Maybe Town
{ProHawk, Vonflare}

Unknown
{Firebringer, Kop, Marge}

Maybe Scum
{Persivul, Firebringer, Ranger}

Scum
{Titus}

p-edit: Yeah but that's where skill comes into play - being able to tell the difference.

p-edit: Ocean's response to your nonsense was pretty good, Titus. You always go "I caught scum" and it's annoying to people who aren't actually scum. I've been on the receiving end of it and it makes me want to bitchslap you, and I saw the same reaction from Ocean.

p-edit: Kop kop. Sorry kop I've got a honey all my own already

p-edit: STAHP.

@ETL, Can I have a tiered readslist from you?

I already posted it, though it's out of date now and I've changed my mind on most everyone.

Ocean's town though, you are wrong there. Know how I know?

There's a post in his ISO where he's all indignant "WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO SAY WHEN YOU FIND OUT I'M TOWN ARGH" and it came out very genuine imo.

VOTE: ocean

VOTE: ythan

UNVOTE:

voted ocean because Titus said to.

voted ythan for something he said I don't remember now but I'll find it when I'm not mobile.

unvoted after his exchange with firebringer and carry over read from yesterday.

VOTE: ocean

[Persivul]

Do you think I'm scum?

I'm heading in that direction. You went from Ocean as a town read to voting ocean because a dead player - who you wagoned - said to.

I'm pretty sure that if I did the same thing you'd see it as scummy as all hell.

[Persivul]

Chainsaw Defense
^ Since I'm pretty sure you have no idea you're actually doing it so blatantly.

I'm pretty sure you should have actually read the link:

UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell.

[Persivul]

Town
{Prohawk, Kraeg, Kop}

Maybe town
{Flubbernugget, Ythan}

Interesting that your three town reads took one of your Maybe town reads from L-4 to L-1, but you're not reevaluating your reads on them.

[Persivul]

Town

{

OceanWind

, Ythan, Kraeg, Flubber}

Maybe Town
{ProHawk, Vonflare}

Unknown
{Firebringer, Kop, Marge}

Maybe Scum
{Persivul, Firebringer, Ranger}

Scum
{Titus}

p-edit: Yeah but that's where skill comes into play - being able to tell the difference.

p-edit:

Ocean's response to your nonsense was pretty good, Titus. You always go "I caught scum" and it's annoying to people who aren't actually scum. I've been on the receiving end of it and it makes me want to bitchslap you, and I saw the same reaction from Ocean.

p-edit: Kop kop. Sorry kop I've got a honey all my own already

p-edit: STAHP.

Do you think I'm scum?

I'm heading in that direction. You went from Ocean as a town read to voting ocean because a dead player - who you wagoned - said to.

I'm pretty sure that if I did the same thing you'd see it as scummy as all hell.

I never townread Ocean

.....?

Emphasis added.

LOL - you can't keep your lies straight. Your username is apt: I'm tired of your crap - especially the lies.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: ETL

I'm willing to move back to FB if that wagon gains some traction.

[Persivul]

Since you're fond of wiki links:

Lynch All Liars

[Persivul]

k. From my very first readslist on D1. Good job.

Note to the town - please review my reads and reasons. There's a reason scum want me gone.

Yes, town, please do. I made it easy - I already showed the (lack of) reasoning from your town read of him to your vote on him in 1464. I searched for ocean in your ISO and included posts where you mention ocean. (You threw a fit and repeated one of the posts a number of times, but I only included that once.) You went from ocean = town to voting ocean without reason, and then as an after thought said you voted him because Titus said to.

[Persivul]

What...? I should reevaluate my townreads when they don't agree with me?

You may as well - it should only take a few minutes. Your town reads are the three least prolific posters among active players. They're not doing much scum hunting at all, yet they're your top town reads.

[Persivul]

No buddy. You asked for my reason because I put down a naked vote on Ocean at the start of the day, so I told you exactly why.

There really isn't a lot to misunderstand here, so...

I'm going to assume that everything else in the case is correct then since that was your only response lol...

weak.

[Persivul]

Somebody hammer please.

You're at L-3. How many times are you going to pull this AtE?

[Persivul]

So do you still think I was coaching ranger to move off you?

[Persivul]

Depends. It definitely looked like it.

Like, you didn't even bother talking to anyone else. Just Ranger.

As noted, Ranger was the only person on a lone wagon. Duh.

[Persivul]

You still haven't answered my question about why you jumped to Persivul's defense when no one was talking to you. If you're town, why would you interfere in the attempts by one player to sort out another?

Yeah, because people never jump into other people's discussions in a mafia game!

Please, do you hear the crap you're spewing? In your own words: "you're literally going "YOU'RE SCUM FOR DOING THIS THING THAT'S A TOWN THING DIIIIIIE" lmfao"

[Persivul]

As noted, Ranger was the only person on a lone wagon. Duh.

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p7377376]
p-edit: Uh.. that's not the point. You said you did it to encourage people to consolidate. If that's the case, why only encourage one person? [/quote]

Because...everyone...else...was...already...on...a...multi-person...wagon. This isn't rocket surgery.

[Persivul]

Suppose there's 4 wagons. One person - lone on their wagon - moves to one of the others. Now there's 3 wagons. What do you call that? Whatever you call it, that's what I was urging, and doing so in a rational fashion. I started with those with no vote at all, then moved to those on a lone wagon. It makes perfect sense, and the fact that you scum read it is a good example of your conf bias regarding me.

[Persivul]

Blitz is awesome. I brought it up in the summer but it was shot down.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6936633

I'm glad they did it. There are active standard games, but then there's an awful lot that play like blitz anyway - 10 days of nothing, then all the activity happens the last 4 days anyway.

The key is going to be for people to sign up for the kind of game that really suits them.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Ocean

So much for the lynch me drama.

[Persivul]

7.5 hours left and only a few people active...just sayin'...

[Persivul]

Or it was just a big fartsicle.

[Persivul]

Oh yeah so fake. Mhm.

Yes, your self vote certainly was.

[Persivul]

Ythan: Marge, Firebringer, ProHawk, Kraeg, Kop (5)

What will you think of these if Ythan is lynched and flips town?

[Persivul]

Town doesn't need to make outright lies to push a wagon.

VOTE: EspeciallyTheLies

[Persivul]

somebody please get this over with.

Vote yourself...wouldn't be the first time...

[Persivul]

if there are 3 scum, today is mylo. so... kop.... there is no after.

If there are 3 scum, it's not mylo. You know that.

[Persivul]

ETL screwed us. I hate to say it but she should get a temp ban or at least a warning for playing against win condition. That self hammer was emotional, not strategic. If she had hung in and fought we might have ended up getting scum.

[Persivul]

Mr. Encouragement.

I didn't think she'd actually

do

it.

Mass claim is probably best.

Why?

Persivul you claim first

And what makes you think you're in charge?

[Persivul]

Because it's typical to claim at this point in the game.

Yes, it seems like it can only help.

Why are you against it?

I'm not against claiming. I'm against you giving orders.

I'm the yang to ocean's yin. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm Mason.

[Persivul]

Checking the setup, we now have:

VCMM

If that's all the PRs, we have a SK. Since there hasn't been a double NK, that's very doubtful, though not impossible.

That means we very likely have one letter left. It can't be a second V or C, as those are upgrades. It can't be a third M, as that would be an IC. So, we should have one PR left, and that should be a doc or RB. Since we're in lylo, they should claim, then we lynch from among the VTs.

[Persivul]

My preferred lynches are Marge or Kop.

I obviously won't lynch Ocean, and I doubt anyone would convince me to vote Flubber.

I'm currently not suspicious of Prohawk or Ranger, but I don't town read them either. And now that I type that, maybe that's a reason to be suspicious of them.

[Persivul]

I've been on you and Kop throughout the game, and nothing's changed. Do you want me to link to posts as a reminder?

You've already claimed VT.

Kop, please claim.

Marge, I've shown you mine, now you show me your...reads.

[Persivul]

Listen sweetie.
You are not this type of player.
Don't act that just repeating something from day 1 mean jack.
Don't act like a mason claim means anything either.
You know and I know there are 3 other days things happened in which you said Jack about Kop or me.
You want to troll someone, troll someone that hasn't played with you before.

You want some fresher evidence? OK. Right now you're dodging my request for a reads list. Also I just checked the VCs and saw a couple interesting items. You were the first person on the last two mislynches. You weren't on the Titus wagon at all, but Titus claimed vig and said she was going to vig ocean, so keeping Titus alive would have been fine with you, as you knew she'd kill a townie. But, you were on the Kop wagon at the time. That could have been distancing, or it could mean that only one of you is scum.

And surely you noticed that ETL had me defending myself and/or ocean for half the game.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Marge

[Persivul]

I think you and ocean are fake claiming scum buckets.

What's the scum motivation for the fakeclaim? I could understand that charge if he claimed when he was about to be lynched, but he was at L-3 when he claimed, and had been successfully defending all game. He wanted to claim to avoid another wasted day arguing with ETL, who was obviously in a tunnel she couldn't get out of.

As for VCA, who was scum pushing that wagon....wait it was you.

As you note, the question is why? I was on ETL because I proved beyond a doubt that she lied to push my wagon. Town shouldn't need to lie to push a wagon, as I stated. So...why were you on it?

[Persivul]

VOTE: Marge

And there is the anti town not waiting for claims to be done scum.

Did you see my analysis? Kop's claim does finish it. Unless we get another PR claim, we have a valid setup.

[Persivul]

I think you and ocean are fake claiming scum buckets.

What's the scum motivation for the fakeclaim? I could understand that charge if he claimed when he was about to be lynched, but he was at L-3 when he claimed, and had been successfully defending all game. He wanted to claim to avoid another wasted day arguing with ETL, who was obviously in a tunnel she couldn't get out of.

As for VCA, who was scum pushing that wagon....wait it was you.

As you note, the question is why? I was on ETL because I proved beyond a doubt that she lied to push my wagon. Town shouldn't need to lie to push a wagon, as I stated. So...why were you on it?

It's probably lynch lose.
One more mislynch and you win right?

So unless you know for fact there is only 2 scum left you let me know.

This is classic scum!farside - quote a question, then make a completely unrelated statement and pretend that it's been answered.

[Persivul]

Also I note pervisal has not said anything about anyone else as scum.
Faking scum reads is hard for scum to do.

Says she who dodges requests for reads.

[Persivul]

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p7386042]
Ocean fake claimed to save himself.
Don't be dumb.
You want to talk scum motivation.
Why did I unvote ocean if I'm scum persivul?
He would have been easy lynch despite the claim.

Keep fake claiming to win if you want.[/quote]
As noted, ocean was at L-3 when he claimed and had been successfully defending for quite some time. He wasn't in danger. You're denying observable facts.

[Persivul]

I respond and made my views more clear then you this game.

You mean like your theory on Kop? You know, the one you said you had but never explained?

Your theory was probably that he was scum with me or ocean, but now that he claimed doc you're scrambling to make up something different.

[Persivul]

Ranger, please claim.