Open 49 - Vengeful Mafia - Game Over, before 510

[UltimaAvalon]

Listen to JDodge. He is smart.

UnFoS: Hjallti

Vote: Hjallti

[JDodge]

Unvote, vote Hjallti

[Qman]

My first ever vote count as a mod Vote Count!

Hjallti - 2: (Ultima Avalon, Jdodge)
UltimaAvalon - 2: (somestrangeflea, VampanezeHunter)

Not voting: Hjallti

Three to string someone up!

[Hjallti]

Dzjee, I still don't understand the GF-claim at all but after reading the next part of that game 15, I saw some explanation there that I couldn't follow entirely if I wanted to believe everyone (here UltimaAvalon) plays logically, but that made somehow sense.
This game has a bit different setting, making town a bit stronger and the goon weaker, from which it follows that this gambit is even more likely to be played by every party. The scum has to try something to break the game open, the town has more power to defeat scum, and can risk a bad mislynch.

I still believe however that this claim is very bad town play and certainly anti-town.

On the other hand I don't think we are helped by a quicklynch now. I would like some more explanations from everyone any way. So far I am the only one writing more than 3 (english) sentences in one post. I really though there would be a hesistance to vote from everyone but I seem to be the only one hesistant. I will think this weird game over and might even vote later today.

[Hjallti]

UltimaAvalon,

I don't understand that my simple remark that from WIFOM reason the GF could make GF-claim is proof that I know who the GF is. Could you elaborate?
I metagamed because I found your claim so weird that I wanted to know if it was done before. I took the other game called 'vengeful' (clearly to be able to compare) and it was done there as well by a townie. What is wrong with metagaming this way? Note: I don't used metagaming like some players do to compare play styles or moves of players.

JDodge,

Could you explain your vote?

[somestrangeflea]

I still believe however that this claim is very bad town play and certainly anti-town.

Quoted for epic truth.

[JDodge]

I still believe however that this claim is very bad town play and certainly anti-town.

Quoted for epic truth.

The people who attack the GF claim the most are the scum because (assuming UA is a townie) they know that the person claiming GF is lying.

I'm way more comfortable with a Flea lynch than a Hjallti lynch to be entirely honest, but I think they're both scum.

[somestrangeflea]

I still believe however that this claim is very bad town play and certainly anti-town.

Quoted for epic truth.

The people who attack the GF claim the most are the scum because (assuming UA is a townie) they know that the person claiming GF is lying.

I'm way more comfortable with a Flea lynch than a Hjallti lynch to be entirely honest, but I think they're both scum.

A GF claim is terrible townie play, because it draws the attention to them, which will likely result in their mislynch.

[VampanezeHunter]

Whoa!

Unvote:UA, Vote:Jdodge

Changing that vote ever so quick was very scummy! I doubt some people noticed that!

[JDodge]

I still believe however that this claim is very bad town play and certainly anti-town.

Quoted for epic truth.

The people who attack the GF claim the most are the scum because (assuming UA is a townie) they know that the person claiming GF is lying.

I'm way more comfortable with a Flea lynch than a Hjallti lynch to be entirely honest, but I think they're both scum.

A GF claim is terrible townie play, because it draws the attention to them, which will likely result in their mislynch.

You're an idiot and have no concept of how Vengeful should be played. I know from experience - 3 games of Vengeful, all in which there has been a GF claim, one on-site - that it is the most pro-town thing possible. How many games of vengeful have you played in which there was a GF claim?

[somestrangeflea]

You're an idiot and have no concept of how Vengeful should be played.

I can see that both thought and logic went into this post.

I know from experience - 3 games of Vengeful, all in which there has been a GF claim, one on-site - that it is the most pro-town thing possible.

Onsite, there was a Godfather claim by a Townie. The first person to show disbelief (ie. not voting them) of the claim was the Goon.

In this game, the first person to show disbelief of the claim was Hjallti, so I can see your case on him. I don't really support it, but I can see your point.

But, that doesn't show the the claim

was

a pro-town thing to do...

I have to apologise though, since I assumed that claiming GF was an attempt to get lynched, so that they controlled the vig, which

is

anti-town play. I may have been mistaken...

[UltimaAvalon]

I hate metagaming. Period. Saying things like "this is how it happened last Venge" or "This is what this person normally does when..." is crap. If you can't create a case against a person by what they're doing in this game alone, then there is no case. If you think I claim GF because someone did it some other game, and he was town, you're sorely mistaken. Now hurry up and hammer me, so I can shoot you. Or is that the reason you haven't done it yet?

[JDodge]

If you think I claim GF because someone did it some other game, and he was town, you're sorely mistaken.

Freudian slip?

[somestrangeflea]

I just noticed...

FoS:UltimaAvalon

either goon, or by Wifom GF anyway. (I am even tending now to the latter, as the former is to obvious.)

So, you think he's a Mafia member, yet don't vote for him? Why?

[JDodge]

I want everyone to give me their top 2 suspects, I has a plan

For me it's Flea and Hjallti

[Hjallti]

yet don't vote for him

(=UltimaAvalon)

? Why?

As I said a quicklynch is bad for town. Also I am still startled by that first move. And I am cautious of it. In fact I will consider that move (including the selfvote) as something that is telling nothing, as such. I consider it a strange and bad gambit that seems to have some supporters that might do it from each alignment. I came to this conclusion using the following logic:

If a scumplayer would consider to do this move, it is only because he really believes he could benefit from it.
Therefor he almost must be certain that it could as well be a move of a town player.
So he would think something like 'If I were town I would do the same move'.
Therefor that particular player would do the move in any case, beit as scum or as town.
Therefor the move doesn't say something of the alignment of that player.

Other things UltimaAvalon did however, seem not pro-town to me:

I hate metagaming. Period. Saying things like "this is how it happened last Venge" or "This is what this person normally does when..." is crap.

I agree with your second part. Those things are crap. I used metagaming with another goal which JDodge also pointed out: If I think that your gambit is utterly wrong and I am surprized someone plays that scummy, I can indeed just vote for you. I was surprized but I thought that I might miss some experience, and that this ploy in fact is also possible for a townie to play. From my gut, without metagaming I would have already voted for you, but from my mind I know I have to be cautious since we can loose to fast here and I went to the only resource I have to compensate for my lack in experience: the mafiascum database of games.... and my mind tells me that the claim (only the claim) not that weird after all. I won't take the metagaming to far: in the game I saw the claim was made without a selfvote. A selfvote is also not protown. But then I start comparing and that kind of metagaming is indeed taking it to far.

If you can't create a case against a person by what they're doing in this game alone, then there is no case.

Here you are totally twisting my arguments, and that is a scumtell, of course. I can build a case with only this game. I didn't need to metagame to get you lynched, I could have hammered you already. In fact you are not lynched at this point because (apart from JDodge backing you up (there is a connection....),) I did metagame.

I also find your entire anti-metagame campaign something like saying: I know how to play this game better than you and I would like to keep it that way: please don't do research: I can beat you if you only look here.

Another thing disturbing me with your play is that you not really answer the question I implicitly pose, defend your case, but such attack me with "shouting" things like

'please don't metagame, I hate it'

,

'you use the word wifom, so you seem scum to me'

Those arguments and the fact VampaneseHunter unvoted give me only reasons to

vote:UltimaAvalon

@JDodge: you are number two in my suspicion list. You also don't use logic but shouting and bluffing with experience to justify your moves.

[somestrangeflea]

I suspect everybody, but for wildly different reasons...

UA, for the claim.
Hjallti, for the reasons stated in my above post.
JDodge, gut.
VH, for not saying very much.

So, uhm, top 2?

UA and Hjallti. I really want to throw JDodge in instead of Hjallti, but I don't know why. I'm very susceptible to OMGUS...

It's a disease really...

[Hjallti]

@flea, I find it strange you didn't react to my reaction on your post. Clearly you must have missed it because your last post was send together with mine, Right?

[somestrangeflea]

As I said a quicklynch is bad for town.

A fair point, but I feel that if someone is scum (which your post seemed to make out was how you thought about UA), then the benefits of lynching a very scummy player would outweigh the possible drawbacks of a quicklynch.

Basically, my point is, if you're sure someone's scum, a quicklynch isn't bad, IMO...

@flea, I find it strange you didn't react to my reaction on your post. Clearly you must have missed it because your last post was send together with mine, Right?

Indeed I did. I simulposted, then went to sleep. When I woke up, my post was still the most recent post, so I assumed there were no replies. I then went to my

learning establishment

school...

[VampanezeHunter]

No SSF I have said things possibly not enough but I have said thing and some important like my vote on Jdodge without too much cause!
Ok now I shall post!
Reading through I noticed that someone pointed out that the goon would not want to lynch the GF. Guess who was the first person to stop us? Then again if this is a red Herring then we are done for! So I am thinki9ng that UA is the GF trying to play mind tricks with us! Anyway this could be WIFOM but why would the GF claim if his aim is not to get lynched?

[JDodge]

No SSF I have said things possibly not enough but I have said thing and some important like my vote on Jdodge without too much cause!
Ok now I shall post!
Reading through I noticed that someone pointed out that the goon would not want to lynch the GF. Guess who was the first person to stop us? Then again if this is a red Herring then we are done for! So I am thinki9ng that UA is the GF trying to play mind tricks with us! Anyway this could be WIFOM but why would the GF claim if his aim is not to get lynched?

You. Top two suspicions. Now. Not stating them is not a pro-town action.

[VampanezeHunter]

Whoops I forgot. Here are my top 2 Suspicions!
1)SSF- Mainly gut feeling but also the fact that he hasn't really been presurised before so it kinda makes me think he is slipping under the radar.
2)Hjallti_for the rweasons in my last post!

[JDodge]

Now all I need is UA's suspicions, and I will reveal my super-awesome plan of awesomeness and greatness and win.

[somestrangeflea]

1)SSF- Mainly gut feeling but also the fact that he hasn't really been presurised before so it kinda makes me think he is slipping under the radar.

Uhm, this may be a bit of a stretch, but is that not an extension of "Too Townie"?

I haven't done anything to place me under pressure, therefore I haven't been pressurized, therefore

I'm

suspicious? I don't see how that works...

What you've effectively done is, instead of saying that I'm "Too townie to be town", which is how the "Too Townie" fallacy is normally worded, you've claimed that I'm "Not scummy enough to not be scum"!

[VampanezeHunter]

Um..basically Too town! I think you've not done anyrthing suspicious but that puts you under the radar! So if you are scum then this is quite easy for you!