Thank you, mod, for putting up with us for that long. Also thank you for giving me an awesome mason partner. Comments, no, not really, but I'm sure Chaz is kicking himself for not night killing. The powerrole confusion certainly was confusing as intended.
I would never have figured out the setup, and I got the traitor logistics completely wrong. Having Mirth as a mason partner helped a LOT because we were able to compare notes and figure things out.
I regret pushing for Battle Mage's lynch, but at the time, he was pushing for lynching either Mirth and me, or Elmo, and I was sure that Elmo wasn't scum. I still don't understand why Battle Mage was ignoring UA/Porochaz so completely. I kept waiting for him to make some sort of case there, but unfortunately he kept pushing for other lynches.
I was convinced Elmo was town after he voted for CES; my reasoning was for all the wrong reasons, as it turns out, but Elmo's pro-town play after that ensured that I wasn't going to vote for him. For my own part, I think Elmo probably deserves the credit for town winning. If not for him, I think it likely that Mirth or I would have been lynched, killing both of us, and then scum would have had a pretty easy walk to a win at endgame.
Thanks to Mirth for being such a great partner, always challenging my assumptions and making me look at things differently. And thanks, PJ, for a really fun game. Good luck in law school!
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
Im disappointed not to have won but in fairness I didnt know you were siblings so I couldnt do much thinking that I couldnt explain the roleblock... it had to happen the way it did I think which is unfortunate but good game guys... well done
Mostly retired. Unless you ask or it's something interesting.
Agh, bummer....and I tried really hard to win as scum too...
but, hey, I won as Town.
Good to see I was on the right path in trying to get one of you two masons killed though. Here's what I was trying to base the "Bulk and Skull are good guys" bit on
Hrhrm. The wiki pages says that "Once recruited, the Traitor becomes a normal Mafia Goon", which made silly me think that if CES had been recruited, he would be revealed as "CES, Mafia Goon". The devil is in the details, but (as usual) the avalanche effect is interesting. I therefore disregarded and immediately forgot about traitor variants. I therefore interpreted a guilty on CES as meaning that vial was non-sane. I therefore threw out the vials entirely; in retrospect, probably the strongest night-game tool the town had. Ugh.
I screwed up with respect to Unright's non-vanilla claim. I have no idea what he was doing; personally, when I got my role PM, I really
did
go and research putty patrollers. That seems an obvious way out, to me, if he were scum. The alternative would be he really did think, for reasons unknown, that it was a, uh, power-heavy (?) game. I have no idea. Maybe we'll never know, heh.
I do think that it's not at all obvious how much faith to put in the sanity of the vials. With the apparently normal masons, no details about the other (apparently normal) dead inventor, I really did tend towards him being an inadvertent-townie role, heh. The problem for me was simply that, depending on intended balance, the role could be entirely non-sane, but we'd never know. Any innocent could be naive, any guilty could be paranoid, and we'd never know until we lynched someone. That's quite a high price to pay for some kind of information. Maybe if he'd investigated someone already dead, that might help. I believed the mafia might have a roleblocker, too, so it wasn't clear the No Result was a property of the vial, although I thought it unlikely that he was roleblocked at any point. A note to the effect of "at least two of these are sane" or something would have really changed the role for me; perhaps I'm just too conservative? The thing with normal cops is that you can still infer things with the set of results.. they way Jenter read it, and the way I read it until I examined it carefully just now, is that I thought each vial had a different sanity. I actually quite like the role now I understand what it does, but it seemed too untrustworthy to use at the time.
I do think that as soon as me, Bookitty and Mirth were confidant that each other were town, it was close to a forced win. The only time I have ever felt totally, utterly snowed as scum is in a scumchat game where slightly more than half the players strongly asserted on general gut/meta that they were all pro-town within the first 3-4 minutes. Ironically, they were wrong about my partner who went on to win in the endgame, but I was completely at a loss as to what to do at that point and pretty much epic failed immediately. I don't think Porochaz/UA played badly at all, I just can't see any way for him to win at that point. I do think any attempts (in this case) to discredit the masons were liable to do more harm than good, but that's due to their play imo. ,
I did wonder what happened on night 3. I still do not understand how CES knew there would be no counter-claim for that night. That would kind of immediately hosed them somewhat.
I did think that a no-kill didn't make much sense. It's somewhat viable if they believe that sort-of-confirming UA will buy them the equivalent of more than one mislynch.. under certain circumstances, he might sail through to the endgame, hm. I pretty much filed it under "unexplained, look it up postgame" and tried to look for chains of reasoning that weren't based around it.
The thing for me was simply that I thought the masons were individually townish, and their behaviour in terms of claiming was obviously pro-town. To that extent, the flavour didn't matter to me personally at all - indeed, one of the things that made me suspicious of UA was his focus on the flavour as opposed to the day game. Oddly enough, I also took their flavour as a slight towntell - I assumed that if they had the gall to fakeclaim mason, then they'd have a less dubious flavour-claim in store with all the hundreds (?) of characters in MMPR.
Martyr is a good alternative to the doc. Two inventors was good. I am happy not playing into out-guessing-the-mod on this later note. Not a lot to say, the meta about what role combinations can reasonably be expected needs to be shaken up. It was. Hurruh!
I agree with the dislike of strong cops, but I'm not sure what the alternative should be. I've never liked sanity as a way of weakening cops, really.. I like it, but if you've got all the vials as the same sanity, it's basically a %chance non-sane cop, and if you don't, it's impossible to trust it. I'd wonder if a tracker or a gunsmith or something wouldn't have been better, although I think this role was intriguing.
Sibling-Masons is EXCELLENT. I'd considered a mechanism like Old Maid Mafia that you were in (right?) whereby the mafia get some kind of bonus if they guess who's paired. This is an excellent alternative, imo. I think they were possibly the strongest town role, on a par with the cop (played competently, obviously), but obviously we got quite lucky with how they claimed.
I think the traitor was done right. Certainly the most important thing is to let the goons know - I've been irritated when playing a traitor before and trying to subtly crumb my existence when the mafia had ignored a hint in the GF's role PM! Beyond that.. I just think the gameplay fits better to have a recruitable traitor. I think CES had much better chances through most of the game than the goons, and indeed I think his lynch was a definite turning point. It's very difficult to do anything when the traitor's in a good position and the goons aren't; with this variation, good scumhunting and then good scum play are rewarded. Um, yeah.
I don't know why the masons forced a massclaim when they did. That seems like it had the potential to be problematic, because masons are premium nightkill targets. I don't know if they tried to look reasonably scummy and avoid the NK (CES certainly thought so!) or if people just generally got their wires crossed in this game, but, uh, they won it for us. Yay. Go Bookitty / Mirth!
I really like it, I don't have any complaints. Lynching Battle Mage and two goons is a pretty decent result. I had fun. Thanks for modding.
Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford
If it's okay with Mirth and if there's any interest I can post the mason communications. But they are very long, so I'll edit out extraneous stuff (mostly me thanking Mirth for being smart) and only post the relevant parts, which are long enough in themselves.
It's probably too long to post unless someone wants to read them though.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
As a player who has a great fondness for both Masons and night-conversation, I would like to see anything you find suitable for posting here. It's really one of the few places where you can really
watch
ideas being bounced around, and bouncing ideas with somebody with your interests in mind [or at least you think has your interests in mind, although that's not relevant for this game] just makes my day.
You can post the night convos if you want, Kitty. I have no problem with it. I would offer to post some too, but i cleaned out my way too overfilled PM box after this game ended. Sorry.
From: Mirth
To: Bookitty
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:08 am
Subject: Mini 509
Hello.
Thank Darwin night has finally arrived. Your predecessor and I did not talk at all since he was not around.
If we survive tonight (though if the scum are smart, they'd kill you as the most obvious townie, assuming they don't kill a lurker first out of frustration), looks like I'm going to be the main contender for a lynch tomorrow. I don't particularly want to expose you as my Sibling if it comes to that. (And would really prefer to avoid claiming mason all together, so lets hope that can be helped, because we're pretty much dead if it comes to claiming. Might be dead otherwise too.)
Anyway, Jenter is obviously scum. While I still don't see what Jmar did as an innate scumtell (and I will gladly admit to stupidity, but I still don't see it), I am 99% sure Jenter is scum. (PWS was the first to start attacking Jmar. Also Jenter disappeared for a long while from this game and has posted nothing of substance. Metagaming says he has been active on an almost daily basis in other games and on the mafia discussion forum.)
Have no clue what to think of anybody else though. I'm thinking CES is probably town. TSQ could be the cop (why else the blind insistence?). Thoughts?
From: Bookitty
To: Mirth
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:11 am
Subject: Re: Mini 509
I think if you get into trouble (or I do, always possible) that we should claim masons, but not unless that happens. My own feeling is that Jenter is probably scum, but I STILL think Originality is scum too.
I thought Flameaxe was town, but I can't say that I have a decent meta on him as scum. He acts like this as town, though, for sure.
Hopefully the game will pick up more now. And don't hesitate to claim if you need to.
From: Mirth
To: Bookitty
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:56 am
Subject: Re: Mini 509
I think originality is probably scum too, but I'm going to stubbornly go after Jenter because I'm more sure there. And nobody else seems to want to lynch Originality anyway. Albert/Unright/Avalon/whatever still worries me with the halfclaim. Shame TSQ asked to be replaced if he is the cop.
How many scum do you figure there are? I'm guessing a SK is unlikely, but would say that there are 2 or 3 scum left. I'm pretty sure the nightkill will be either one of the inactives or you. (Possibly also Avalon, but I doubt it).
From: Bookitty
To: Mirth
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:20 pm
Subject: Re: Mini 509
My bet is that there are two scum left. I'm pretty sure people are going to go after you tomorrow; I'm likely going to either back you on Jenter or pressure Cogito Ergo Scum based on some weirdnesses. (I don't really have any certainty CES is scum, but I am not sure enough to let him slide right now.)
I thought Albert was town, but we'll see what UA does with the role. If Flameaxe is scum, we're all in trouble, and he was pushing the dybeck lynch pretty strongly.
Elmo is a good player and we should get more content out of him. Plus he's a nice guy... so he often fools me (assuming I'm alive) into thinking he can't be scum. If you've played with him before, then you probably know that firsthand.
My best guess is that it's Jenter/Originality, but I can also see CES in that mix somewhere. And depending on UA's behaviour, it's possible he may be scum as well.
Here's hoping we both see tomorrow!
From: Mirth
To: Bookitty
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:30 am
Subject: ...
originality was town? wtf?
From: Bookitty
To: Mirth
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:59 pm
Subject: Re: ...
Yes, it's weird. I have no clue where to look now. Going to do a reread.
I will let you know if I have any new ideas... please do the same for me.
I'm starting to think Unright (UA) was scum after all. Why's he still alive, if not?
From: Mirth
To: Bookitty
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:01 pm
Subject: Re: ...
I still think Jenter is scum.
From: Bookitty
To: Mirth
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:04 pm
Subject: Re: ...
Gut says Elmo is scum. (replaced Dybeck)
But I don't have enough evidence to push it, so I'm not going to.
Why do you think a half-claimed power role is still alive, if he's not scum? (Serious question. I can't figure a reason.)
From: Mirth
To: Bookitty
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:06 pm
Subject: Re: ...
Honestly, I don't know. I was getting scum vibes from Elmo but I'm not too sure there. I'm also wondering why we're still alive actually
From: Bookitty
To: Mirth
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:09 pm
Subject: Re: ...
One of us may not be, pretty soon.
In honesty? We look like decent targets. Someone is going to push for one of our lynches tomorrow. Could go either way, but that's definitely on the agenda. I need to reread and see who was saying you were second on their list; I'm guessing that's scum setting you up.
From: Mirth
To: Bookitty
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:33 pm
Subject: Re: ...
I meant nightkill wise. Albert/Avalon doesnt like me, if that helps any. Elmo doesn't like you. TSQ has not been replaced, but he didnt like me. I also think he wa the cop...
From: Bookitty
To: Mirth
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:40 pm
Subject: Re: ...
I believe we're still alive, nightkill wise, because we look like easy targets for a lynch.
They'd have no idea we're a mason pair, or they'd have killed us long before.
From: Mirth
To: Bookitty
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:04 pm
Subject: Re: ...
Im going to back you on pushing Avalon (but I'm going to demand a claim from him immeadiately). I think we're gonna be in Lylo, so we will have to claim if either of us gets in trouble we'll ahve to claim.
From: Bookitty
To: Mirth
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:01 pm
Subject: Re: ...
If Avalon is town, why haven't they killed him yet?
I don't think scum would disbelieve a half-claim like that from town and let him live this long, without pushing his lynch; what's their motive?
If I'm alive at daybreak, I'm pushing this case.
If either of us gets in trouble, should we both claim?
I'm on the fence about Elmo. He does sort of pick at me in all the games I'm in with him; I think he wants to see if I get irritated or if I remain preternaturally calm. It's my belief he thinks the second is a scumtell for me.
From: Bookitty
To: Mirth
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:13 pm
Subject: Re: ...
If you like we can claim immediately upon the new day if we're both still alive.
If we both are, then we know they're saving us to try to lynch; there's no other explanation. So we may as well preempt that with a claim and then go from there.
I think we've breadcrumbed sufficiently in our interactions that it should be fairly obvious once we point it out.
What is the disadvantage of claiming right away? (I think we'll be in LYLO too.)
From: Mirth
To: Bookitty
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:20 pm
Subject: Re: ...
Unless we have 3 scum left (in which case we've already lost), we have a 2 in 4 chance of getting scum tomorrow. So I think you're right there. Lets just out ourselves (as masons, not siblings though). If one of us gets targetted, im not sure if we both die immediately or if one of us gets a day delay. If we bth die right away, we'e also lost. So now that I think about it, I see no disadvantage.
From: Bookitty
To: Mirth
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:25 pm
Subject: Re: ...
Sounds like a plan.
Whoever sees the thread open first can claim right away, and claim their mason partner.
I'll work on a case on Avalon; if I can I'll send it to you this way before day starts. If you have time to do a case on Jenter, send it to me; we'll be able to make both our cases that way, regardless of whether we die or not.
From: Mirth
To: Bookitty
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:17 am
Subject: Re: ...
The main case on Jenter is that he only has 7 posts. He's big on anti Jmar (I still think there was no case), then he decides to go with the flow and vote originality. (He also defends Dybeck if thats relevant)
DG, before him: anti jmar, correctly defends originality, (interesting note: is certain ces is scum)
PWS: jumps on jmar for innocuous thing, mentins that we have 3 scum (how would he know?) basically says nothing helpful after voting jmar for "urking in plain sight), suspect jmar, unright, originality.
I'm not as sure of this case as before, because DG was giving me town vibes. The other two not so much. Hmmmm...if we claim we're provoking a massclaim. That might help.
From: Bookitty
To: Mirth
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:27 am
Subject: Re: ...
Unright started with some random voting, then said this about UA:
"So if he gets lynched, I wouldn't consider it a great loss to the town. Even if he was the most powerful townie in the game."
Tried to push the idea of five scum, and then the half claim "I read up on my character at least"; later confirms with this: "What are you talking about? I was researching Putty Patrolers! I swear! ... Aw crap. That's what I get for venturing out of the newbie game areas, huh?"
And then lurks, excusing himself because he's "too spooked out to actually hit the reply button". Some unexceptional posting, then "And for the record, I never backtracked. I made my bed and I'm sleeping in it."
Makes a scumlist, consisting of Originality (town) Blight (thestatusquo, unknown), and dybeck (Elmo, unknown).
This explanation for his survival: "Could be any number of scenarios. A doc protected me, scum figured a doc would protect me so they went after another target for Nking and/or decided it'd be easier to paint me as scum the next day. I'm not a mind-reader, just happy to be alive."
And then disappears.
Albert comes in, and looks pro-town. Disavows the roleclaim (which I don't think town would do). "He slipped information by making a ridiculous assumption, one that should never be made by anyone in a game of mafia" seems to contradict "I did no such thing." in response to you saying: "Unright already claimed powerrole and you acknowledged it."
Then he semi-claims: "The possibility that you are discarding is that of:
*5) Unright, Patroller captain, Townie, Killed N2
A named character that is a vanilla townie."
And this doesn't look really good in retrospect:
"Once again, I did not claim my character name anywhere. Patroller captain was an example. It could be Roger The Killer or whatever flavor in the power rangers universe. Fact of the matter is, you can be a vanilla role with a named character as flavor, and that's the only way to make sense of Unright's soft-claim. So MAYBE I am vanilla. MAYBE I am a power role. Nobody will know until I actually DIE. And the next person to give me some limited reveal bs gets a bullet in the brains."
I think the stuff with Dybeck could be distancing. ABR's scumlist was this: "So the scum-list goes Dybek, Jmar, Originator and Mirth." One of these was right, and we know two were wrong. Maybe he knows Dybeck is scum as well. Dybeck was the leading wagon, and I think he was going to push you if time permitted.
And this seems weird, given that Originality was one of his top four, in response to my vote on him: "Why ? I thought you just wanted to stop him from lurking."..."I thought you thought DG/PSQ was worse ?"
Then he drops Jmar, more or less, with this:
"If Mirth is really crafty she's going to say someshit like 'if I'm so scummy why aren't you voting me ?' to which I'd answer she's not my prime suspect ATM. I usually only post cases against people I want to see lynched the same day.
My suspects are:
Dybek
Mirth
Originality
and IGMEO Jmar and TSQ. I'll check them out, but I'm not going to be voting them until we get more information from the lynch/night."
Not much else til replacement, by Ultima Avalon, who has done nothing useful at all.
We know Jmar was scum, and we know you and Originality are town. So I'm betting ABR was bussing both his buddies and then tried to save Jmar when the wagon got hot.
Sorry for the rushed case but I have plans for today and I have to get ready now. I'll see you later on!
From: Bookitty
To: Mirth
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:26 pm
Subject: Re: hi
I doubt we'll survive the night, and hey, they caught scum, so chances are we'll win anyway.
From: Mirth
To: Bookitty
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:18 pm
Subject: Re: hi
I agree with you. soooo does this make Avalon the other scum.
From: Bookitty
To: Mirth
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:23 pm
Subject: Re: hi
I think the remaining scum is either Jenter or Battle Mage.
CES said this: "Also, I thought, and still think, that PWS was very townish." and I think his vote on Elmo was an attempt to detract the wagon from Jenter.
Battle Mage said this about Elmo: "Elmo's current posts are stinking. My scumdar just broke from the scumminess he is permeating" but then didn't vote him, continuing to vote Jenter. Why?
I'm not sure between them though.
From: Mirth
To: Bookitty
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:05 am
Subject: Re: hi
Hmmmm if its between Jenter and Battle Mage, I'd vote Jenter...
From: Mirth
To: Bookitty
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:41 pm
Subject: 509
well crap, it appears we have lost.
From: Bookitty
To: Mirth
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:04 pm
Subject: Re: 509
Yes, apparently so. I shouldn't have lost my temper at BM.
But he's very annoying.
From: Mirth
To: Bookitty
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:24 am
Subject: Re: 509
I just thought of something. We might actually still win if Elmo is scum and Chaz isn't lying...or if whichever one of them is scum decides to risk a nokill.
Because if Chaz is town, he has no reason to block either if us, so Elmo's kill wouldn't go through if the block works. Leaving 4. Elmo asked about this, who his choice would be.
Since BM is cleared town, whichever one of them is scum can't be sure which way whichever one of us they think will be left alive will vote, though probably in the direction of Chaz since we've both been kind of clear on that...so scum Chaz could conversely send in a no kill and say he blocked Elmo...sigh...damn WIFOM...
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
As you guys can see, we were wrong quite a bit in our speculation. Especially me. But Kitty was a great mason partner. And somehow magically we survived. And, for the record, I still don't understand how y'all knew Jmar was scum.
