Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[Ginko]

We've been talking and I don't have a lot to add. Was gonna tell Orc and Keely to get a room but I'm attached to one of them

[Metalcyanide]

VOTE: UNvote: orcinus_theoriginal aside from missing a post which answered my question his post since then don't seem especially scummy. But I'm having trouble with this 3 team thing so he could still be scum but just hunting the other scum. Who knows at this point.

I would like to see more from people before really coming up with anything definite.

[West9]

The backpedalling thing:

I am actually a little uptight about that. Acryon, whats with that? Trying to get an early wagon going?

Can you explain why an early wagon is a bad thing? Cuz I don't really seem to recall an instance of a game that you've been in where there's been a quickwagon on D1 that's resulted in anything bad happening?

-Cheetory6

New site, I wanted to see what people thought of the idea of D1 quickwagons. Obviously there's no aversion to them here (though I'm not sure I'd call this "quick". It is in post-count, but not really time-wise). It was a combination of me being a little safe, a little snarky, and testing the waters.

The post that Ginko quotes here (as well as post 9) are clearly not attempts to "see what people thought" or "testing the waters." It's him straight up saying "trying to stack early votes and make early wagons are bad." I mentioned before that Ari not liking quickwagons is consistent with his meta, so this whole "hey, don't vote for me because of that, I was just getting information" thing is backpedalling.

The logic thing:

Your initial logic being you're town, thus I'm scum?
As I said, we could both be scum in this setup.

If Aristophanes is legitimately trying to disprove the stupid logic behind my initial vote of "West and Ari are never on the same team, and West is town, therefore Ari is scum" then this is the sketchiest way to do this. Instead of saying "West, you're being stupid, we could be on the same team" he's saying "yeah, I know we're not on the same team, but that doesn't mean that you're not scum." Aside from the point of him seeming to know that we're not on the same team, it feels very much like he is trying to emphasize that, if he dies and flips scum, people should not them assume that I'm town, which is something I could totally see scumAri wanting to do.

*raspberry*
VOTE: West

No particular reason, no. It's not intentional, just haven't taken the time to really parse through the game until now.

I was expecting you to come at me and call me ridiculous for not remembering that your D1s are typically slow. The passive response here seemed a little underwhelming in a way that I wasn't really expecting. Really, I just don't like that you were more keen to give me an excuse than you were to challenge me on something somewhat bullshitty. Is there some kind of reason why I read your response as being more passive than I was expecting?

I don't know what to tell you, man. People have called me underwhelming before. It's kind of one of the reasons that my D1s are seen as "slow," because I get characterized by my mid-to-end game. My response to you then was my actual response to your post. Having a real hard time caring about this point.

Why didn't you vote for me here, Ginko? Why wait until Lyserg? And who's actually your top scumspect?

P-EDIT: Really don't know what Metal's waiting for at this point.

[Honey bee]

Vote count 1.02

Ginko(3):

Gliffie, acryon, orcinus_theoriginal

West9(2):

Lyserg-Zeroz, Ginko

Aristophanes(2):

West9, VysePresident

orcinus_theoriginal (1):

Aristophanes

VystePresident(1):

prawneater


Not voting: farstefan, Lalendra, Metalcyanide

With 12 alive It takes 7 to lynch. Day ends in: (expired on 2015-01-22 22:14:00)

[orcinus_theoriginal]

aside from missing a post which answered my question his post since then don't seem especially scummy.

which post did i miss?

[Metalcyanide]

aside from missing a post which answered my question his post since then don't seem especially scummy.

which post did i miss?

You didn't miss a post, I did and if I saw it I wouldn't of backed Ari on his questioning of your random votes

[orcinus_theoriginal]

um, ok. which post did you miss?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I'm not really sure where I'm baiting Ari..?

yes you are.

it feels like you are setting ari up for a mislynch or at least baiting him into a bad situation because i was obviously underplaying my own strength

Can I come back to you on this?

Incidentally, let's all talk about this sequence of events.

[Ginko]

Incidentally, let's all talk about this sequence of events.

Lol.
Do you actually care about sorting me? Because it really feels like you're posturing and asking questions to the audience here, rather than caring anything about my intentions. I was tired this morning, hungover and looking over four games of mafia. Pitch the scum-motivation in pretending that I didn't know what you were talking about when I literally asked you to point it out to me. Why would I fake that? What would the point be?

I'm trying really hard not to make noise and get too caught up in what might just be OMGUS-feelings, but shit like this feels stupidly opportunistic on your end and I'm frustrated that I know I'm not in good enough of a mood to sort it in an unbiased way.

The post that Ginko quotes here (as well as post 9) are clearly not attempts to "see what people thought" or "testing the waters." It's him straight up saying "trying to stack early votes and make early wagons are bad." I mentioned before that Ari not liking quickwagons is consistent with his meta, so this whole "hey, don't vote for me because of that, I was just getting information" thing is backpedalling.

For some reason the hyperbole irked me here at first, but I'm not as sure anymore. I don't agree that it's 'heavy heavy backpedaling' and I also think that it's somewhat plausible that Aristo was trying to do a reaction test, but I feel kind of null on this one point now on you now that you've elaborated on it.

If Aristophanes is legitimately trying to disprove the stupid logic behind my initial vote

Did you actually think that it was particularly likely that he was?

Why didn't you vote for me here, Ginko? Why wait until Lyserg? And who's actually your top scumspect?

I only voted for you when Lyserg did because I was hoping to get responses from you without you having any kind of direct pressure on you. Once Lyserg started voting for you, there was no point in waiting as your responses would be influenced by that.
My reads are starting to get a little jumbled, but around #70 I started kind of suspecting you and was trying to be subtle about it.

-Cheetory6

[West9]

If Aristophanes is legitimately trying to disprove the stupid logic behind my initial vote

Did you actually think that it was particularly likely that he was?

Kinda. Sure feels like it. It's why I asked him about it.

I asked who your main scumspect was because you said you were gonna asked Orcinus about that person and you didn't ask him about me.

[West9]

Apparently I dunno how this site works yet. This part was @hydra johnny/cheet, not a quote.

"Also, hydra guys (I forgot the name of your amalgamation), sup with the easy vote on me?What if I were town, making West a scummy bastard!?Also, two versions of scum in this game. In theory we could both be evil. Why side with him against me?"

He did make this post specifically to make sure you received that part of his post. It's clear that he at least thought you should comment on it.

Also, in #53, he said "I was making a point that his logic was flawed"

[Ginko]

@mod

I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to go V/LA, I'm neglecting school super hard by focusing too much on mafia right now. I'll try to get a post or two up every day but I can't maintain this level of focus here at the moment.
Please give me questions still and give me shit if I actually go missing for more than two days.

-Cheetory6

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Because it really feels like you're posturing and asking questions to the audience here

i am asking questions to the audience, yes. hope that clears things up

[Aristophanes]

Rereading all this and will amass thoughts, questions, and answers.
Will return soon with all that.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Pitch the scum-motivation in pretending that I didn't know what you were talking about when I literally asked you to point it out to me. Why would I fake that? What would the point be?

pitch the town motivation into posturing to not understand me

well you can't really do that either

also @all: when i said

I'm not really sure where I'm baiting Ari..?

yes you are.

it feels like you are setting ari up for a mislynch or at least baiting him into a bad situation because i was obviously underplaying my own strength

Can I come back to you on this?

Incidentally, let's all talk about this sequence of events.

i meant let's

all

talk about this sequence of events ie i actually want people to talk to me about this

[Aristophanes]

I won't know if you're scummy until I get a rise out of you.
But the lack of conversation from you is anti-town at best.

ok. why do you think it's anti-town? i guess the assumption here is that because i'm not forcibly trying to fabricate scumreads in RVS i am contributing. and yet it would appear that my votes have given rise to the first serious/non-gut coversation in the game.

so i guess it's your turn to elabroate on that

Sorry I never got back to you on this. I see that you were baiting us. Somebody had to bite, so I went for it. Yes, you got the first "serious" conversation going. That doesn't tell me much. I like your level of contribution now, though I have some stuff I'll get to later in this post that I wanted to mention.

Heavy, heavy backpedalling coming from Ari. I'm cool with my vote still being here. Also, he still hasn't disproved my initial logic.

Your initial logic being you're town, thus I'm scum?
As I said, we could both be scum in this setup.
Also, how can I prove I'm town without a lynch.

I'm still confused. Are these jokes, or legitimate attempts to disprove my logic?

I really don't get what you want from me. I've addressed the vote multiple times. It wasn't even a serious vote. I suppose I could have said "well, we could also just both be town, ya dummy!" like you expected, but what fun would that be when other possibilities exist to be explored! I'd rather get people thinking outside the box than have us forget about the odd setup of this game-type. As for the backpedaling, I really wasn't, but okay. If you say so.

VOTE: Orcinus_TheOriginal

Called this shiet so hard, Johnny owes me a fakedollar.

Am I really that predictable Cheet? Geez.

I won't know if you're scummy until I get a rise out of you.
But the lack of conversation from you is anti-town at best.

Now that orcinus has started talking, what're your thoughts on him?

Well, I like that he's talking, but not really the way he's talking. As you said, he seems like he's talking to an audience. I'd take it one step further. Ocrinus reminds me of Dr. Phil!
Commanding the conversation, pushing a sort of "I'm right, so talk away, but I know I'm right anyway" mentality in his wordings, and having somewhat leading questions, as if he's just shepherding us all to agree with him. I'm not voting because of that, because it's not necessarily scummy, but it really is making me watch his posts.

metalcyanide seems simultaneously self-concerned and not legitimately curious

So, what does this do for you? I would assume this is a somewhat scum mentality, so why not pursue it?

intercepting that question. i was an easy vote.

It was also a necessary vote. It brought you out of the random voting and facilitated conversation. Is it bad that I made an "easy" vote?

VOTE: UNvote: orcinus_theoriginal aside from missing a post which answered my question his post since then don't seem especially scummy. But I'm having trouble with this 3 team thing so he could still be scum but just hunting the other scum. Who knows at this point.

I would like to see more from people before really coming up with anything definite.

Two things here, Metal.
i) What more do you need from people before commenting? There has been plenty of conversation going on. Why not address it?
ii) You're saying Ocrinus doesn't seem scummy while saying he could just be a different version of scum. Are you "Third-Party" hunting (or whatever you want to call it this game)? If someone seems scummy, then they seem scummy. If not, then not. This kind of logic you have here is Wine and makes it very easy for you to backtrack your thoughts later.


Other notes: I just remembered that I have a thing on my internet that automatically translates "figuratively" to "figuratively". So if I sound like a dummy, it may be because I'm misreading a post. Sorry about that!

I was gonna say something @West and now I forget. I'm sure it'll come to me.

As for this sequence of events you're questioning, Ocrinus, I really didn't see Ginko "setting me up" for anything. He's done it before, yes, but this doesn't seem the same. This may also be one of his reactionary things, as that statement ("Can I come back to you on this") is an odd response IMO unless this is the case.

Umm...Other than that, people should check back in and stuff.

Sorry about the wall! :S

[orcinus_theoriginal]

so you thought i was reaction testing? i don't believe that.

metalcyanide is a easy lynch and i'd rather sort cheet

i had a page of back and forth with cheet. i had one post where i addressed a question to everyone else in town. tell me more about talking to an audience

i think easy votes are lazy and i don't believe that you thought i was reaction testing

VOTE: ari

[orcinus_theoriginal]

It was also a necessary vote. It brought you out of the random voting and facilitated conversation. Is it bad that I made an "easy" vote?

Yes, you got the first "serious" conversation going. That doesn't tell me much.

cogdis

though I have some stuff I'll get to later in this post that I wanted to mention

this never happened

I'm not voting because of that, because it's not necessarily scummy, but it really is making me watch his posts

at least i hope you're not referring to the above

you are still voting me. why?


DANCE WITH ME
I WANT TO BE YOUR PARTNER CAN'T YOU SEE

[orcinus_theoriginal]

He's done it before

done what?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

As for this sequence of events you're questioning, Ocrinus, I really didn't see Ginko "setting me up" for anything.

you're not this dense. you're just scum and you're not trying to figure things out.

here let me guide you.

I'm not really sure where I'm baiting Ari..?

yes you are.

it feels like you are setting ari up for a mislynch or at least baiting him into a bad situation because i was obviously underplaying my own strength

Can I come back to you on this?

Incidentally, let's all talk about this sequence of events.

In the first quote (which chronologically came later), cheetory claims that he doesn't know why i'm accusing him of baiting ari.

However, earlier, he said the second quote, in which cheetory replies to my accusation of cheetory claiming him baiting ari with a "i'll come back later". ergo this implies that cheetory

knows exactly what i am saying

when i say he is baiting ari

so cheetory is lying

let's talk about people who lie

they tend to be scum, don't they?

[VysePresident]

Prod dodging, because I've been getting Life'd to death, and it's five A.M. now.

I'll try to post in the morning, and failing that, evening for sure. Sorry guys. >_<

[acryon]

Acryon seems like he's gotten kinda defensive. He also hasn't really done much contributing as of yet. Acryon, other than thinking my tone to be funny, what are your thoughts on the players here? Ginko and Lyserg have said stuff, why not look into them a bit?

This is quite weird to me. For one, I didn’t think I was being defensive at all, but given someone else also mentioned that, I guess I’ll accept that it looked like I was.
Why did you ask me to look specifically into Ginko and Lyserg? Other people said things, and people like Orc said quite a bit, but for some reason you mentioned those two specifically.
And then you say:

Ginko and Lyserg are alright in my books thus far.

Why do you want me to specifically look at the two people you think are fine? This isn’t normal town behavior in my experience. If you were to ask me to look into someone, normally it would make sense for it to be someone you suspected.
VOTE: Aristophanes

VOTE: UNvote: orcinus_theoriginal aside from missing a post which answered my question his post since then don't seem especially scummy. But I'm having trouble with this 3 team thing so he could still be scum but just hunting the other scum. Who knows at this point.

I would like to see more from people before really coming up with anything definite.

This post says approximately nothing. You had one vote out there for some amount of pressure presumably, and then remove it saying that he could still be scum, “who knows”, and that’s all?

I also didn't realized I was following orc's vote again until I got to this page, but whatever. Ari seems like scum.

[Aristophanes]

I'll have to parse all this when I get home from work.
Too much to try addressing on my phone.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

Trying to figure out how to feel about West sticking so strongly to his backpedalling point... the fact that no matter the alignment people could still be honestly scum-hunting makes this even more annoying.

@Orcinus: I don't really feel as strongly as you do about the Ginko baiting Ari point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, when you said he was baiting him that was about your questions on #77, right? (so the point would be that by not doing those things Ginko was just letting Ari get into a bad position(?)), on the other hand, @Ginko, you should:

Can I come back to you on this?

Do ^that already (unless you already did and I'm dumb for not realising), because I don't want to sit here speculating about what you meant with it or put words in your mouth about it.

intercepting that question. i was an easy vote.

Oh hey, that's the kind of unexpected moves I was talking about, although it's a small thing. I'm pretty sure you already knew but just didn't care, but when a question is asked to someone in specific I want that specific someone to answer it first... but then again:

q.q
Let's just say that Johnny and I have another bet going and I can let you know when it pans out.

<.< Why are you being silly? I expect that bet and whatever you are trying to do here are good reasons to refuse the question...

I only voted for you when Lyserg did because I was hoping to get responses from you without you having any kind of direct pressure on you. Once Lyserg started voting for you, there was no point in waiting as your responses would be influenced by that.

... Whoops.
*Ginko goes V/LA* Bummer :c

@Aristo: I feel like you are exaggerating the "sheepherding" point, but w/e, just answer Orc's stuff, I suppose.

@Orcinus: Give me your thoughts on West, please.

@West: Can you give me your thoughts on Orcinus, and maybe answer these questions: Who's your second scumsuspect (alternatively: Is there anyone you'd be OK with lynching if not your current vote?), do you have any townread?
@Acryon: Same questions^. The fact that you felt the need to say you hadn't realised you were "following Orc's vote" rather than just... well, not say it, also makes me interested in your read or experience with him (if any).
Metal should totes do something.

[acryon]

@Acryon: Same questions^. The fact that you felt the need to say you hadn't realised you were "following Orc's vote" rather than just... well, not say it, also makes me interested in your read or experience with him (if any).

I said it because the first time I followed him I said I was sheeping him, and was joking. Wanted it to be clear that I was not.

Re: Orc
I'm feeling like he is town. Mostly gut combined with his play and apparent direction here matching up with what I've seen from him in other recent games.

West seems town. I'm null on Ginko. If I

had

to big a second scumspect, it would be metal, because 101 feels very off, although there's not much in general to analyze from him. I'm torn on you. I can't tell whether the nitpicking/detail questioning (not meaning this in a negative way) is trying to reconcile your own thoughts or place undeserved suspicion on players. I'm leaning toward the former, but I can't say for sure.