On the Issue of Villiage Idiots (VI's)

[NabakovNabakov]

There is definitely one fact that everybody on this site must face and deal with:

Some people are absolutely awful at playing Mafia.



In just about every game I've played in my short time on this site, there have been players who post badly, vote stupidly, reason poorly, and usually get their dumb asses lynched (or close to lynched) on D1. I would post examples, but most of them are ongoing. However, I know there are experienced players who have seen this before and could round up some old games to stand as examples (or just head on over the Worst-Town Play Thread).

I know that this is the type of play that newbie games are supposed to prevent and contain, but newbies don't

have

to just play newbie games (nor do I think they should) and Village Idiots (VI's) manage to slip into regular games all the time.

The main question this thread addresses isn't how to prevent VI's from joining games (because I don't think there is an acceptable way to do that), it's how to respond when they do. The following questions all arise when considering the issue of VI's:

-Is it in the best interests of the town to lynch a VI because he/she seems scummy as most VI's do?

-Is "Don't lynch him, he's just a newbie" a valid defense?

-How should scum players deal with the situation? (because this is an all-purpose theory thread) Is it better to bus the VI, defend him, or just sit back and watch?

-How much of analyzing a VI lynch comes down to WIFOM?

-Are there any effective strategies to get VI's to improve their behavior? Is there any way to deal with the situation so that they don't become bitter regarding Mafia?


I have my own answers to some of these questions, but I'm more interested in what the rest of the community has to say. It is my hope that we can assemble a variety of theories regarding VI's and how to deal with them, and that a comprehensive Wiki entry can be written on the subject. We will continue to deal with idiotic players, but if we begin seeing them as part of the game mechanics, and we face them with a strong base of knowledge, things should work out much better in the end.

[Primate]

-Is it in the best interests of the town to lynch a VI because he/she seems scummy as most VI's do?

-Is "Don't lynch him, he's just a newbie" a valid defense?

-How should scum players deal with the situation? (because this is an all-purpose theory thread) Is it better to bus the VI, defend him, or just sit back and watch?

-How much of analyzing a VI lynch comes down to WIFOM?

-Are there any effective strategies to get VI's to improve their behavior? Is there any way to deal with the situation so that they don't become bitter regarding Mafia

Depends whether he is genuinely scum or not, yes, depends on the situation, as little as you can manage.

Ask them what they find scummy, then work consistency out from there. If they find the wrong things scummy, they can easily still be consistent to their own mind, if you get me. That's what you should check for.

[NabakovNabakov]

Depends whether he is genuinely scum or not, yes, depends on the situation

But thats where the real problem lies (and I probably should have mentioned this in the OP) VI's are so incomprehensible that you never can tell if they're really bad scum or just really bad town.

Are there any good scumtells when looking at a really bad player?

[pickemgenius]

I'll quote my sig, and it basically is true


Edit:

Sucking at Mafia does not make you a townie.

[ShadowLurker]

/slightly off topic

The fact that almost all of the crappy new players have skipped newbie games and all of the good ones haven't is actually a great plus in my opinion. The newbie games are now extremely extremely high quality and enjoyable even if not everyone is experienced.

[NabakovNabakov]

It might also be that Newbie Games are a more friendly environment for bad play. Somebody being an idiot in a Newbie will get help/support from an IC. Someone being an idiot in a Mini will just get abused in a vicious cycle.

[Primate]

Depends whether he is genuinely scum or not, yes, depends on the situation

But thats where the real problem lies (and I probably should have mentioned this in the OP) VI's are so incomprehensible that you never can tell if they're really bad scum or just really bad town.

Are there any good scumtells when looking at a really bad player?

No player is really unreadable, no matter how much they look it.

Most players that are new/dumb have unique views of what constitutes being scummy though, and the bizarre train of thought leads on from this or is extra. Just try to figure out why they're thinking what they're thinking, and don't just judge them on what they actually say.

Another piece of advice is to not put much faith in your first opinion of them. Because you can't apply traditional models to them, you may have to spend a fair bit more time than normal questioning them just to get any idea at all.

[Adel]

Because you can't apply traditional models to them, you may have to spend a fair bit more time than normal questioning them just to get any idea at all.

Consider the case of the almost lurking VI. I'd also like to point out that being awful at Mafia isn't a flaw limited to idiots. Very clever and articulate people can also be quite awful at mafia.

[pickemgenius]

I'd also like to point out that being awful at Mafia isn't a flaw limited to idiots. Very clever and articulate people can also be quite awful at mafia.

Still doesn't make them townies.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'd also like to point out that being awful at Mafia isn't a flaw limited to idiots. Very clever and articulate people can also be quite awful at mafia.

You're talking about me, aren't you?

[Zindaras]

-Is it in the best interests of the town to lynch a VI because he/she seems scummy as most VI's do?

The Village Idiot requires a new metagame to adapt to. Like you have to use different tells to catch the really good players, you have to use different tells to catch the village idiots.

-Is "Don't lynch him, he's just a newbie" a valid defense?

Depends on what he's done. Some things (suggesting No Lynch, OMGUS) are things all newbies do. Some things are things only newb scum do.

-How much of analyzing a VI lynch comes down to WIFOM?

Too much, unfortunately. Just look at all the individual votes, as usual.

-Are there any effective strategies to get VI's to improve their behavior? Is there any way to deal with the situation so that they don't become bitter regarding Mafia?

Try to teach them the game. It's time-intensive and requires a lot of patience, but that's how it goes.

[Thesp]

It might also be that Newbie Games are a more friendly environment for bad play. Somebody being an idiot in a Newbie will get help/support from an IC. Someone being an idiot in a Mini will just get abused in a vicious cycle.

This is very spot-on.

VI's should be coerced into thinking - and votes don't do it. I think that's the long and short of it - they need to be shown, sometimes explicitly, the thought processes that go into finding scum. (Or, at least, if you're taking a different, less expressive approach, why whatever approach you're taking could be ultimately helpful.) It may not sway them, but it will help VI's who are petulant (which can happen) from disagreeing with you simply because you are disagreeing with them.

There is a frequent argument out there that lynching bad townies is helpful for the town. This is a terrible argument, and it needs to stop. It is the path of least resistance, and a terrible excuse. (It's frequently used as, "Well, if he's not scum, at worst we're killing a townie that will harm us, so VI can't be a bad lynch.")

[Fritzler]

I'd also like to point out that being awful at Mafia isn't a flaw limited to idiots. Very clever and articulate people can also be quite awful at mafia.

You're talking about me, aren't you?

my....this is awkward

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, there are ways to tell if someone is a scum or not, even if they're playing badly. Most of the normal scum-tells do still apply; at least, newbie scum tend to do them more then newbie town.

Voting for someone just because you think they're a bad player is a terrible play; no matter how good or bad a player is, your goal is to figure out if they're scum or not. In fact, one of my favorate scum-tells is to look for people who are going for "easy lynches" based on logic like "Let's lynch X because he's a bad player"; it's something scum like to do, so I tend to go after people who do that.

That being said, while I won't vote someone just because they're not playing well, there are times I vote for someone because of anti-town play; if a person is acting in such a way that it directly harms the town, which could be lurking, or hammering people without giving them a chance to claim, or some other anti-town behaviors, then the town needs to make them stop doing that, either by pressuring them with votes or if they won't stop by lynching them, even if you're not sure of their alignment.

[Rosso Carne]

heh i almost feel as if im being called out.

hey everyone, when are you going to understand that:

BEING EASILY READ IS A SIGN THAT YOU SUCK ASS AT MAFIA!!!!!!!!!

Hasn't anyone ever thought that maybe someone who doesnt play like you do is not a bad player?

Take AniX. I consider him one of the most upstanding players on this site. He's awesome, great at catching scum, but because he lurks so much, all the attention is on him. Now he might be, but thats what cops are for {btw, youre a good cop if you inv people you can't read, NOT if you investigate people you think are scum, that makes you a bad cop, but thats for another thread}

Then take fritz. Worst player to play with? hardley. I love playing with the man because he keeps people honest, fuck up and he'll shoot you {still laughing from the first post in bad idea}

Bottom line is that someone who is unreadable is the best player in the world. Lotsa people {including me} consider IS the best player ever, and just reading that description of the VI {minus lurking} thats sometimes him {in the games ive read and played with him in}. There are mighty few games where I play as if I've looked at my role pm, and anyone who knows me ought to be able to pick them out like an eyesore, and everyone should be that way.

[Thesp]

Bottom line is that someone who is unreadable is the best player in the world.

I strongly, strongly disagree. I would think that a player who always looks pro-town (with no indication as to ability) who is consistent at being more likely to catch scum would be a far superior player than the abstract unreadable player you refer to here.

Being unreadable is nice. Being read as pro-town no matter what you are, and succeeding at finding scum consistently is what makes a player

great

.


EDIT: I agree that playing differently doesn't make you bad. However, playing differently doesn't inherently make you "good".

[Rosso Carne]

*shrug*

no one's bad if they win. a shitty looking player can find scum and a scum can get to L-1 every day, but if theyre alive at the end of the day theyre better than you

=P

[Thesp]

*shrug*

no one's bad if they win. a shitty looking player can find scum and a scum can get to L-1 every day, but if theyre alive at the end of the day theyre better than you

=P

This post is almost entirely wrong.

[Yaw]

IS is not a Village Idiot. IS played under a mask that allowed him to get people to react, and then pick off scum when they did. It was quite considered and deliberate. As such, I don't think this discussion is about him and other people with asymmetric playstyles.

The concern here is more about the Stimpy-type of player, who doesn't have the slightest clue what is going on, and is prone to bouts of idiocy (such as counterclaiming a cop on day one when his role is the doctor) that ruin games for the rest of the players. (Which sort of breaks down the question into two parts -- how to correct behaviour when it's "normal" Village Idiocy, and what to do if they go off the edge and really Stimpy it up.)

[NabakovNabakov]

To prevent the thread from going too far off topic (though this could be an interesting topic of discussion for a seperate thread). I will definitely clarify that this is in no way an attack on

different

playstyles, just bad playstyles. Those who prefer action and relative silence to lots of discussion are fine by me as long as they're effective in doing it. VI's can mess up the game by posting too little or a wall of words. Perhaps "Stimpy" is the best example to use here.

[Rosso Carne]

yaw, i realize IS is no idiot, as clearly stated in the "best mafia player of all time" but even his wiki says his playstyle comes off as scummy and unhelpful to a lot of people.

and nan, so that your thread doesnt get too far off topic then, give me some examples of who you think of as idiots, and use me if you like please. Then I'll find my idiotic threads too.

[PurpleKoopa]

Funny, I thought this thread was about me, seeing how Newbie 393 just ended.

If you always look pro-town, then you're really good at mafia.

[NabakovNabakov]

Like I said in the OP, I'm still new, so most of the best examples I've seen are on-going, but my newbie gamewas just declared dead, and there's a pretty good example in there (BeanBrew), but because it's newbie, people are more helpful than opportunistic. The town eventually decides not to lynch him, but I've seen towns go either way.

(I am the

master

of conjungtions)

[Adel]

[url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5472]Newbie 393[/quote] is a perfect example. PurpleKoopa got lynched for being the VI (don't worry about it, you'll get better) and lost the game. In support of Rosso Carne's earlier suggestion that it is better to be unreadable, it also shows what happens when a powerrole acts too pro-town. I was the cop in that game, and I was also the N1 lynch. I didn't claim, drop hints, breadcrumb or do anything to give myself away, the scum NK'd me because I was too-townie. To add insult to injury the one IC in the game who wasn't scum was playing in an unreadable manner, so I drove the bandwagon that lynched him day 1 on the basis of a couple of pretty minor scumtells.

Mistakes made by town:
1. Lynching the VI
2. Powerrole acting too-townie
3. Lynching an unreadable player

Result: rout by scum

[Yosarian2]

Rosso: "Being unreadable" is not really a good goal when you're playing mafia. A person who is consistantly terrible is hard to read, but he also dosn't do much to help the town win when he's town, and gets lynched a lot when scum. Either way it's bad.

Odd playstyles don't make a player inherently bad, but while it's sometimes hard to tell, there's a big difference between someone who has an unusual but effective playstyle and someone who's play is consistantly bad for whatever team he's on.