Revealing WHY you think someone is scum

[gorckat]

How someone defends agaisnt a 'baseless' claim might also reveal info...I can imagine getting defensive, attacking the accuser or remaining calm being useful info.

[Kelly Chen]

More than once I've seen the response "If you're saying you investigated me, you must be insane" or "I must be a miller."

[Adel]

How someone defends against a 'baseless' claim might also reveal info...I can imagine getting defensive, attacking the accuser or remaining calm being useful info.

My gut reaction is that those responses are more likely to be due to the player's personal psychology than role alignment- more signal than noise. I can see how drawing defenders can be the result, which is good info, but wouldn't giving evidence that is short of overwhelming draw defenders more readily?

Are there games on record where a normal townie successfully spoofs a power-role to draw the NK, not through fake-claim, but through subtle means such as having a strong opinion on a vote without good evidence? What other tactics might assist in that?

I think I'm learning more as a result of this thread than I did from the wiki. If anyone else wants to drop some advanced theory on me via PM, I do welcome it! Please PM away; I promise not to "publish" any tactics shared in private.

[ryan]

Good idea? Bad idea? Depends on the situation? Discuss.

Bad idea. Even when good reasons are given you are STILL looked upon as scummy

[spectrumvoid]

Eh; I used to think vote-hopping was scummy, until I saw Baby Jesus demonstrate that intellegent hardcore votehopping with can be a great way to find scum.

Link please? I've been experimenting with vote-first, ask later. Unfortunately, everyone meta-games me and says I'm scum

[AutumnEvenings]

Eh. I can see it producing results in a few situations but...

First, you aren't leaving any record behind if you get lynched/nightkilled/whatever and come up town. People will read over your posts and go "huh, they suspected X but didn't say why, so...can't follow that" or whatever.

Second, it's pretty easy to just ignore that. Unless its endgame, a single vote isn't much of a threat, so...who cares really?

Third, you won't persuade anyone to vote with you. Figuring out who the scum are is only--if that--half the battle. You actually have to get them lynched (or vigged or whatever) in order to win. Just voting or saying "X is obviously evil" won't do much to win others over. Along with that, it probably won't do much in terms of their scum-buddy's reactions (if they're even scum) either.

And lastly, I personally find it obnoxious and lazy-looking. :p

[beanbagboy]

Votes MUST have a reason. You might withhold that reason until later (e.g., being a cop, or waiting for their reaction) but you should have and state it.

I always incriminate people for not voting with a reason.

[Jack]

I vote without reason as town all the time.

[Mastermind of Sin]

How someone defends against a 'baseless' claim might also reveal info...I can imagine getting defensive, attacking the accuser or remaining calm being useful info.

My gut reaction is that those responses are more likely to be due to the player's personal psychology than role alignment- more signal than noise. I can see how drawing defenders can be the result, which is good info, but wouldn't giving evidence that is short of overwhelming draw defenders more readily?

Are there games on record where a normal townie successfully spoofs a power-role to draw the NK, not through fake-claim, but through subtle means such as having a strong opinion on a vote without good evidence? What other tactics might assist in that?

I think I'm learning more as a result of this thread than I did from the wiki. If anyone else wants to drop some advanced theory on me via PM, I do welcome it! Please PM away; I promise not to "publish" any tactics shared in private.

You are my new best friend. I need to play games with you from now on . I'm sick of being called over-defensive scum just because my personal psychology says to defend myself against every little accusation that I feel might get out of hand, since past experience has shown that even the weakest, stupidest arguments can sometimes gain town support for no apparent reason.

[JDodge]

You are my new best friend. I need to play games with you from now on . I'm sick of being called over-defensive scum just because my personal psychology says to defend myself against every little accusation that I feel might get out of hand, since past experience has shown that even the weakest, stupidest arguments can sometimes gain town support for no apparent reason.

QFT

[Yosarian2]

Are there games on record where a normal townie successfully spoofs a power-role to draw the NK, not through fake-claim, but through subtle means such as having a strong opinion on a vote without good evidence? What other tactics might assist in that?

I basically did something like that in Comittee mafia; I wasn't a townie, I was a vig that had to kill every night, so I wanted the scum to kill me, as I thought my role might be a detrement to the town. I wasn't going to fake claim or actually lie, but I took bits of information I did have and implied that I got them from some tracker-ish ability, which was enough to get me nightkilled, while still giving the town useful information.

[IH]

If you don't post your case, I generally assume you're either trying to bandwagon, or shift your vote without someone noticing.

I will then attack you for it.


I don't find Vote Hopping inherently scummy, but I do find someone votehopping, and saying something like "I agree!" or "This is right!" or something along those lines, in other words a crap reason, scummy.

I often find it rather scummy when people seem eager to present all their reasons at the time they vote. Looks like they're trying to avoid giving anyone an excuse to ask them more about it.

I do this actually.

This is usually my line of thinking.

Mafia is a game of An uninfomed majority vs an informed minority. Scum win when they become the majority, town wins when they become informed. So the goal of mafia is to become the informed majority.

Therefore, any information you choose to withhold (other than power role information) would probably (probably) be detrimental to the town. The only reason it would not be detrimental is if something COULD happen.

Like you expect scum to interact with their partner in a certain way. If you point this out, it's most definitely not going to happen, and you won't see the reaction that you were hoping for.

I vote without reason as town all the time.

You're scummy as hell all the time to me too.

[Thesp]

I generally think that stated reasons (and conversely defenses) are overvalued. Eventually, I think most arguments devolve into "I think you were trying to do

X

while pretending to do

Y

." "No, I wasn't, I was really trying to do

Y

." Also, withholding information is frequently very useful for the town, when done right. (I firmly oppose the idea that having absolutely everything out in the open is the optimal condition for town.) If you disagree, then I'd love to show you how an open and overly-verbal town is awesome for mafia hunting docs, cops and masons. (Actually, I don't want to show you. )

[Adel]

(Actually, I don't want to show you. )

Then would someone else please post some links? Otherwise IH sold me with

Therefore, any information you choose to withhold (other than power role information) would probably (probably) be detrimental to the town. The only reason it would not be detrimental is if something COULD happen.

Like you expect scum to interact with their partner in a certain way. If you point this out, it's most definitely not going to happen, and you won't see the reaction that you were hoping for.

[Thesp]

(Actually, I don't want to show you. )

Then would someone else please post some links? Otherwise IH sold me with

Therefore, any information you choose to withhold (other than power role information) would probably (probably) be detrimental to the town. The only reason it would not be detrimental is if something COULD happen.

Like you expect scum to interact with their partner in a certain way. If you point this out, it's most definitely not going to happen, and you won't see the reaction that you were hoping for.

People frequently give away information about their roles, often unwillingly. This happens the more they post. Also, when people post a lot, it gives the mafia who've slipped up more chances to recover, and a lot of useful stuff gets lost in the noise. There's a fine medium between where people need to post more, and where the day goes on too long. Eventually, it's probably worth posting things you notice which may be helpul to the town, but even still you may be wrong. (Why should I trust a dead townie more than my own wisdom? It's steered me wrong in the past. I don't care terribly much about your justifications if you're dead - I know more than you do, now that I know for sure you're town, as you didn't know for sure that I was town.)

[Adel]

"Also, when people post a lot, it gives the mafia who've slipped up more chances to recover, and a lot of useful stuff gets lost in the noise." Outside of Mafia, whenever you are trying to separate signal from noise the larger the sample size you use the better. It is almost a universal truth. So it seemed only natural to me that more posts = more information = less risk of a mis-lynch. The error rate I think I see in people basing lynches primarily upon single-instance tells is huge: worse than random. With a larger sample those would wash out. But as I read more games, I notice that the "better" players reveal much less information than I would ever expect. Interesting contradictions like that are why I am so fascinated with this game.

Mostly, I need more games under my belt.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I agree with Thesp that revealing ALL information is not good.

I often find it rather scummy when people seem eager to present all their reasons at the time they vote. Looks like they're trying to avoid giving anyone an excuse to ask them more about it.

I do this because I anticipate stupid arguments that people will bring up and question me with and try to shoot them down ahead of time so they don't get asked. Even if I have an answer for a question, having a question asked of you that makes you look scummy can be damaging.