Mini 444 - Reverse Mafia Vanilla (Stopped)

[Yosarian2]

Why not, YB? I would expect anyone, either pro-town or scum, to rather have themselves revived then someone else, so I'd expect anyone to "self-hammer". Anyway, it dosn't really matter if it looks like a pro-town thing to do from the town's point of view, because with no vig or anything, once a person's been revived there's absolutly nothing the town can do to change that.

[yellowbounder]

Actually, that leads to an interesting point.

What if the town is 100% sure a live person is scum, this leads to some interesting WIFOM issues. Think about it, if they vote for someone, it's either them voting for their scumbuddy, or trying to vote for a protown to make the town not revive them.

Possibly we could make a policy of the live players using karma as well, so if a townie is killed, then at least we knew sort of what that protown player's views were.

Self hammering is a bit rude in some respects however. Almost as rude as hammering yourself in ordinary mafia, except more rewarding for yourself.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

VRK's post does not sit well with me. He has said very little and shows up to through some good karma at yellowbounder. I don't like him being against self voting. If anything I can not think of any scenario, town/scum, that would not want to vote for themselve.

*shrug* I don't see the point in self-voting. What good is it going to do us, collectively, if we each vote for ourselves? The fact that you can't think of a scenario where no one would not want to vote for themselves is a good example of why we shouldn't do it.

It doesn't benefit us, the Town, in any way, shape, or form for people to self vote. There's no information we can get out of a self-vote. The scum will do it because that's a fast track to winning the game. The town will do it because they have to get revived in order to win the game.

There's nothing differentiating the

motives

of a town player from a scum player with a self-vote

- therefore, it's not helping us towards our ultimate goal, which is rezzing as many townies as possible and as few scum as possible.

Maybe we should start talking about who we don't want to vote for and why we don't want to vote for that person.

This I like. This will help us out, especially if we get the Why nailed down. Someone who just says "I don't want to vote for person X" and leaves it at that is not helping us out. The reasons are going to be important in this game, much more so than a normal game.

[logicticus]

I dont think self hammering is a protown thing to do, unless there has been some discussion once the -1 vote has been placed down.

I agree that talking about who is best not to bring back would be the most beneficial right now. Unfortunatley, we all may have to live with rezzing someone (espcially the first time) that we dont hate to see up there rather than someone we love to see up there simply because getting a majority of people to love seeing someone rezzed will be difficult.

[Yosarian2]

Self hammering is a bit rude in some respects however. Almost as rude as hammering yourself in ordinary mafia, except more rewarding for yourself.

Well, a pro-town person might not hammer oneself right away if he's not ready to end the day yet, but I don't think it's at all "rude". In fact, NOT hammering yourself in this game is almost the same as voting for yourself in a normal mafia game; there's no real benifit to it, except as a WIFOMish attempt on someone's part to try and look more "selfless".

[yellowbounder]

The WIFOM potential in this game is immense, as, and this is a ludicrus situation, a scum could claim scum when he is alive, and we can't do anything about it.

And do we listen to his votes (which could be for a scumbuddy), or do we vote someone else (his vote could be for a protown person who he doesn't want revived).

Obviously this is a

very

hypothetical situation, but the elements of do you trust a scummy player's voting or not may come up, especially due to the permamency of reviving.

[logicticus]

The WIFOM potential in this game is immense, as, and this is a ludicrus situation, a scum could claim scum when he is alive, and we can't do anything about it.

And do we listen to his votes (which could be for a scumbuddy), or do we vote someone else (his vote could be for a protown person who he doesn't want revived).

Obviously this is a

very

hypothetical situation, but the elements of do you trust a scummy player's voting or not may come up, especially due to the permamency of reviving.

While I agree that this could be a potential problem, Im of the opinion to cross that bridge when we get to it.

[yellowbounder]

I have a suggestion, and it could be completely wrong, but what if in these stages, we let the guy with the most karma pick someone the town should revive. Sort of like kingmaker, except you make kings with good karma, and less execution, and more living.

So, if Yosarian2 had good karma from a majority of the town (thus good karma ing someone more than once is bad) then he could suggest a guy to vote in. Not himself obviously.

Because if you give karma for pro town vibes and logic, then let the pro town/logical players pick who to bring up. And think about it, although it's a bit odd, they are more safe when they're not technically alive, because then they can still speak. Once you're alive, you are at risk from any possible mafia on the living team with you, and thus dead=no talking, which is worse than just being in Limbo.

Thoughts?

[LoudmouthLee]

I will be away from around 11pm EST Friday, June 1st until Monday, June 4th at around 7am EST for my

bachelor party

.

No comments about Belly Dancers, either.

[yellowbounder]

I will be away from five minutes from now, for about four hours.

Sorry, I'd thought I'd join the trend.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

I don't think that I've got anything to bring up now to stir up discussion a bit. I keep my vote on myself, as I know I am a townie.

[Yosarian2]

Is OvertheUnder still in the game? He hasn't posted yet.

[Yosarian2]

bad karma: Machiavellian Mafia

I know he was away for a while, but even before that, he didn't really post much content, and more importantly, the one post of his that DID have content looks scum-like to me.

[quote="Machiavellian-Mafia"][quote="LoudmouthLee"][quote="Machiavellian-Mafia"]Looks to me like we can still play mafia like normal, except instead of voting for the suspicious people to lynch, we avoid voting for them to prevent their revival and vote for more protown people, essentially just like the "reverse" theme of the game.

And I like this good/bad karma idea from our mod.

Good Karma

: KaleiÐoscøpe for having unusual characters in his name.[/quote]

Random Good Karma? That makes no sense.

Bad Karma: MM

[/quote]
I liked the novel good/bad karma idea from our mod, so at the beginning of the game where it's ok to be random and silly, I chose to random good karma Kscope. I think you may be taking this a little too seriously.

I also think Relph has likely made a Freudian Slip with his "4 people with information" post, so I'd say he's likely scum and I wouldn't consider reviving him.

Bad karma: Relph

So far IMO Yos, LML, Logi, and DW have made the best initial protown impressions, but none of them have sufficient protownness to have my vote right now.[/quote]

In this, MM's only content containing post all game, he just kind followed my and others comments about Ralph's "4 scum" comment being off, and then said that he finds several people to look pro-town. The post kind of feels like he's just going with the flow, which is a scumtell especally when he's otherwise lurked. Worse then that, he just flatly states that he thinks Ralph's "4 people withj information" is a freudian slip while ignoring the fact that it's quite unlikely there actually are 4 scum, which makes a "freudian slip" explination seem a bit odd.

On another note, MM said a few days ago that he was back and would re-read "today or tommorow", and then he did not did so. I would like to hear more from him soon.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Can we have a mass prod, mod?

[johhan]

This game, as I suspected, is a bit hard to get started... It's like having 3 day ones in a row, only instead of the relatively easy "I don't trust you, Vote: X", it's the much harder "I trust you, Vote: X"...

[Yosarian2]

This game, as I suspected, is a bit hard to get started... It's like having 3 day ones in a row, only instead of the relatively easy "I don't trust you, Vote: X", it's the much harder "I trust you, Vote: X"...

(shrug) Well "I don't trust you FOS: X" is still useful. Depending on what win condition we end up going for, we're going to have to end up revivng a large part of the town eventually in order to win, which means we need to figure out who we don't trust as well.

[yellowbounder]

Mod, can we have modprods as appropriate?

[DeanWinchester]

I'm around. Dont really have any thing to add.

[yellowbounder]

I think discussion has slowed, because nothing really has happened.

I suppose our only option at this point is random bandwagoning.

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian2

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Sorry folks for the absence. RL is really hitting me hard, and I'm going to try to be here more often. I didn't think RL would affect the games I'm in like it has, but it did.

The main problem I'm seeing is lack of discussion. I don't think a random bandwagon is our best bet, because there's a 25-33% chance of rezzing a scum. Are we really in such a rut that random bandwagon voting is our best bet?

What does everyone feel about Yos as a potential candidate for revival? As of now, I don't get anything from him either way. If I had to say Town or Scum, I'd lean Town, but all he's done so far is gone over the finer points of the game. I can't say a Scum wouldn't do that to get on people's good sides, so in reality it's a non-tell.

Post 112 has some content other than game strategy, where he's talking about MM. I'm not quite sure how I feel about it. It has already been commented on that Yos and LML are looking like they're linked, and this seems to be an indirect defense of LML. Also, the comment that it is unlikely that there are 4 scum is off - you can go through the completed 12 player games in the Queue thread and easily find games with 3, 4, even 5 scum in just the first 2 pages. I agree with the first part of Yos' assessment that it feels as if MMs "going with the flow", but the latter half is worrying me.

I don't want us to resort to random bandwagoning someone to life if we don't have to do so. Does anyone else have anything they want to add?

[yellowbounder]

Hey random banwagoning is accepted in an ordinary mafia game, where there's a (assuming 3 in 12) 66% chance of killing a townfolk.

The problem is, that since there's no risk of death, no one's really going to panic over bandwagons. Hell, we can hardly put someone at R-1, and ask for a claim, (if there were any powerroles, which there aren't in this game).

We don't know how many scums there are either for that matter. It could be anything from 2 to 4, at a pinch, depending on quite a lot of thought.

I may go all maths for a second.

If there's 9 townies, and 3 scum, and we revive someone at random three times, the most likely thing is TTS, at 48.9%. 3*p*p*q for the binomial inclined.

Technically, this isn't a bad first play, but it does have one non-mathamatical weakness.

As had been said before, if we choose people randomly, then there's nothing to talk about.

However,

and that's in bold for a reason, since, short of dicing our way through it, there's no purely random way of nominating, and so people will have a reason for going with one random (or not so random after all) bandwagon, other any other.

And townsfolk will go for the protown vibers, while scum will try and dissuade the town from being rezzed, and hopefully paint themselves as helpful ect. Like ordinary mafia, in many respects.

We need to get some momentum going in the game again.

---
footnote

Don't forget, that although only the people rezzed will be able to vote after this basically pregame stage (it's got a fractional day, for cripe's sake), the town will still have the awesome power of Karma, and it is expected that the townies amoung the living should listen to the karmas.

[Yosarian2]

you can go through the completed 12 player games in the Queue thread and easily find games with 3, 4, even 5 scum in just the first 2 pages.

Not in the same scum group, you can't. You can find games with 3 scum and a SK, or 2 groups of 2 scum, but I'd be quite surprised to see any game with 4 or 5 scum in one scumgroup. If there is a game with 4 scum in one scumgroup, I'd expect the town to be incredibly over-powered, like 2 sane cops or something like that; wheras the town here is vanillia, and not only that but we actually are in a worse situation then a "normal" vanillia game where we'd at least get information from lynches.

In any case, if you can really find any games with "4 or 5 scum" in one scum group, I'd like to see a link.

In any case, for the people who keep suggesting a link between me and LML; I did say that LML is a strong player, and that if we're just going to nominate on the basis of that he'd be a reasonable choice, but I did not (and still do not) think I have a read on his alignment.

[LoudmouthLee]

Unvote: LML

Vote: Yosarian2

This vote is levied in order to move the game forward.

Mod, this is becoming a rather tedious experience. Please replace all non-active players, lest the game gets stagnant.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

you can go through the completed 12 player games in the Queue thread and easily find games with 3, 4, even 5 scum in just the first 2 pages.

Not in the same scum group, you can't. You can find games with 3 scum and a SK, or 2 groups of 2 scum, but I'd be quite surprised to see any game with 4 or 5 scum in one scumgroup. If there is a game with 4 scum in one scumgroup, I'd expect the town to be incredibly over-powered, like 2 sane cops or something like that; wheras the town here is vanillia, and not only that but we actually are in a worse situation then a "normal" vanillia game where we'd at least get information from lynches.

In any case, if you can really find any games with "4 or 5 scum" in one scum group, I'd like to see a link.

Well, the argument didn't need to differentiate between 1 scum group or 2. Scum are scum for the purpose of this argument, since the comment was directed towards the total number of scum in the game, not how many groups there are.

But, I did find this, about 1/2 way through the completed games on pg 1 of the Queue thread:

Mini 342 - Mlakerville had 4 scum (2 goons, 1 Godfather, and 1 Mafia Thief), all in the same group,

and

a SK....and the town won.

So yes, your comment that it's

unlikely

that there are 4 scum I'll live with, but it's not an unheard of phenomenon.

[logicticus]

Well at this point theres not much to go on, so I have decided to take a deeper look at one topic thats been discussed more than others....the link between yos2 and lml.

Yellow, you have already advocated that someone self voting (or self hammering is scummy) which, logically, I posted. You ignored it completely. Let it be known, I am NOT cool with Yos. Actually, he scares me as one of the best players I have played with. He trusts me even less than I trust him (look back to Normal: Himilayan Mafia) However, when we both seem to LOGICALLY agree on certain actions, it's telling.

This is the first time that LML mentions why he trusts yos (although very warily) at this point. Because they both are logically agreeing on certain actions.

I want to know how Yos and I are linked besides having good logic...

second time LML mentions that good logic is linking them

Could you point me at the specific things you agree with? Because from what I'm reading from him, his statements are mostly basic knowledge of the Reverse setup and how it is played.

After LML states that by logic he means thinking along the same lines, Zindy chimes in with a fantastic question/point.

Well, the part in particular when Yos and I nearly doubleposted was in regards to Relph's post.

The response and for reference the relevent Relph post:

Everybody it's against random voting. But I haven't seen a single argument against it. The closest to that is loudmouth's argument, but I believe that's an argument against not voting for yourself.

I agree with that. If you are town, it's a good thing that you get in your own bandwagon. But the thing is that whatever alignment you are, you are going to vote for yourself and that give us no information.

Also, there's a good point that I think everybody has bypassed. There are several posts stating that this is a no information game. There are 4 people with information in this game, and we have to try to read that information out of them.

So, like someone stated before, I think random voting will same the same purpose that it does in a normal game. It gives us information. I never stated that we should random-revive someone. If you read my first post (25) I clearly said that we should not hurry up to revive someone because we need all the info that we can get.

In my opinion there are quite a few things wrong with this post. Yos2 and LML happen to have the next two posts, the simul-posts that LML referred to in which they point out whats wrong. I think it was clear to a lot of people what was wrong with it, but after the two posts pointing that out they didnt feel the need to chime in agreeing. This is because on this site when you do things like that people will accuse you of just followig in others footsteps or agreeing and trying to lie low.

So the argument put forth by LML:

I am comfortable with myself or yos2 being revived because
We both are thinking with good logic because
We are both thinking along the same lines because
We simulposted criticizing the bad post from Relph

It seems that the entire foundation is being laid on this post which was obviously anti town.

Well, the part in particular when Yos and I nearly doubleposted was in regards to Relph's post./

As said, that's a fairly obvious response, in my ever-so-humble opinion.

I like Zindys thinking again

good karma Zindaras

Then finally, LML puts his vote on Yos2 because the game is slow (true).

So I guess what I have come up with from all of this is that I dont like the foundation that LML is linking himself to Yos2 and I like Zindys thinking.