Open 19 - Nightless (Over?) before 430

[Guardian]

Hey guys.
I do have limited access but I've read the whole thread and am ready to contribute!

I thought I was replacing john, which made me kind of sad, because my inital notes before reading my role were that the most likely scumlist was:

Vitr, IH, nar(now Skruffs), and john(now yb). Luckily, I am replacing BM not john, so my analysis shall not go to waste.

I don't have time to pbpa but I will say that Vitr and IH are linked for me, and Vitr scum would imply IH scum but not necesarily vice versa. Vitr seemed to help steer the Occult lynch over john lynch too.

IH followed Vitr, it seems, and also has really bad logic that Oh, we have 4 misses, its OK. Yeah we do have 4 misses, but with each miss it becomes more and more likely for scum to be able to steer the wagon. We need to get a few lynches right, not get them wrong and go, oh well.

Nar was absolutely crazy (I was reading the thread before the crash) and I don't like the idea that we shouldn't hold that against Skruffs. You should vote off the role, not the player; doing otherwise is ludacrous. Blagho's one post was as scummy as hell to me, but BattleMage's play seemed on the up and up. However, if their play seemed scummy, hold that against me! That comes with being a replacement. I also had some issues with Skruff's bpba.

John, finally, is where the plan hinges. If John is scum, then VitR is in my eyes likely scum, and if Vitr is scum then IH is likely to be. They pointed out/realized that the scum shifted the wagon, and are now imo bussing their companion. John's play was also scummy in and of itself in certain aspects.

Today I am happy with a Skruffs, Vitr, or yogurt bandit lynch. YB is my preference as YB being scum leads to Vitr scum which helps the case for nar and ih scum, but I am willing to go with Vitr today if the rest of you agree.

Since townie like people can't get nightkilled in this setup, I see no harm in listing the people I trust too. Romanus, Aimee, and Elias barely blipped my radar. Ditto with Occult, but I got here too late for that to help. Reread his posts though, it is enlightining.

I am unsure what to think of Tony, mustafa, and missmoo, though I am suspicious of all of them.

YB makes the most sense to lynch to me for today (again I'm happy I didn't inherit that role) and I am happy to go along with his (again imo) scum buddies in voting him.

vote YogurtBandit

Last thing, don't assume any lurking on my part is scummy, I may not have stable internet access until June 4th when I return from Spain; I replaced as a favor to Simenon .

[Guardian]

Suprisingly I had time for a reskim. I realize I am wrong about Vitr steering the John lynch, I guess IH and Vitr got mashed together in my mind. He was happy with lynching either of them, and he did hammer though.

That being said, Vitr and IH seem to agree with me that john is the next play, his pregame question was absolutely scummy, and his reactions to the happenings in the game seemed scummy.

I am now somewhat less suspicous of Vitr and moreso of IH. Finding IH to be scum would make me more convinced of Vitr, as they still seem linked to me in my reread.

Skruffs has been playing independently, but his comment that I mentioned earlier about scum leading the lynch can definitely be seen as leading to fellow scum.

I remain happy with lynching John for today, I only hope others agree with my analysis for tomorrow as I personally am pretty convinced by it.

In the skim, Romanus seems persistent in attacking me, kinda odd because I found little scummyness with BM's play. Also:

I'm thinking Occult is town more and more these days.

then a vote of Occult a few posts of his later seems a tad bit off.

Romanus is no longer as likely town in my eyes, but other than the two things I pointed out I find him a pretty likely town candidate.

I didn't note anything distincly scummy in Elias or Aimee's play, but they have not been very active contributing. Nor have mustafa or Missmoo's predecesors for that matter. Get on this, people. We have what, 3 days til lynch?

Simenon

I mentioned this to you in PM, but I think a 10 day day deadline on this game is ridiculous, and I ask that you please extend it.

IH, I disagree that tony is a good lynch. I am not nearly suspicious of him as I am of other players. I think the town made a mistake in not lynching John yesterday, and that he is a good play for today. I don't see your tony argument, and I think that while Tony isn't articulating his argument against you well there is one there. I think you are just trying to quiet a dissenter. I don't have a strong feeling about Ton'y allignment, though, so maybe this is just more distancing.

One thing that makes me doubt this is that in reading BM's analysis, he disagrees. One advantage of replacing is you get some confirmed-town analysis that no one else does... and BM would oppose me greatly about John. I still feel good about most of my scum analysis though, just the IH Vitr link maybe get IH first instead of Vitr. If IH is town that does hurt a Vitr case. Skruffs seems pretty leading and scummy to me, again remember that he replaced nar...

IH and Skruffs also have comitted craplogic, IH with the no worries attitude and Skruffs saying nar replacing out shows he is town. Yes it shows he cares about the game, but I take that to mean he cared about his scum partners. Skruff's cavalier attitude and thought that he will replace nar and live and that this is a good thing strikes me the wrong way.

I will be perfectly clear right now: I believe John is a good play for today even though I think his scum partners are getting some distancing out of it, but I will switch my vote if either Vitr Skruffs or IH come under more pressure, especially if the deadline stands. The fact that both Skruffs and Vitr are on the john wagon actually does make me wonder about it a bit.

[Guardian]

<snip>
I realize I am wrong about Vitr steering the John lynch
<snip>
I am now somewhat less suspicous of Vitr and moreso of IH.
<snip>

It doesn't; I remembered you as steering the town away from John and to Occult when in fact this was not the case, it was more of IH's doing.

I'm happy you are content with your vote, I am content with your vote too, it's just that I still suspect that you are scum.

[Guardian]

Hmm... I gtg in 2 minutes but I have you guys linked near the beginning of the game.

Skruffs and your badlogic is there, but I don't have time to go quote it.

Again, his is right after he replaced where he said nar asking for a replacement was pro town.
Yours was after the lynch where you were like, oh I shan't cry... In fact I think Skruffs may have pointed out your bad logic?

<3 Guardian

[Guardian]

IH's badlogic:

I was late to the game and again I apologize. While catching up I made note of John's post, but this is only my second game and I learned not to be vote happy. Also, if we lynch him now what information do we have to go on for tomorrow?

There are more players than in a newbie game. With Twelve alive it's 7 to lynch.

Also this a mountainous nightless game.

Scum need 4 mislynches to win, right? So we have a guaranteed 4 days. Yet, with every person we lynch, the town gains "an extra life" since scum kills can't exactly balance it out.

Look at it this way.

with 12 alive, 4 are scum.

We lynch correctly, we're at 8 townies 3 scum left.

That's a guaranteed 5 days. We have some room to mislynch. We shouldn't get careless, but we shouldn't mind putting some pressure on people, because if scum speedlynch, then we have enough room to lynch them right back.

This is extremely misleading. With four scum alive atm, only two townies need to slip up and hop on an all scum wagon for a mislynch to occur. If we mislynch, the same thing happens tomorrow. We need to be careful about

every

lynch, because with over 33% of the population, scum can influfence lynches easily!! Then later, IH goes on to say how we shouldn't stress that we lynched a townie, where by his own reasoning we only have three lives yet. Very scummy imo, and trying to get townies to be alltogether too lose with their votes.

With this in mind,

unvote

as it seems like not such a good idea to start a wagon on John/YB with two people I think are scum on the wagon, even though my initial thought was that John was scum.

Also, with BattleMage and Occult not suspecting John, and imo two scum voting for him, that gives me a little pause for thought as to whether I am right about the scum bussing him or whether is actually a townie. I am more comfortable with IH as being scum after thinking about it for the greater part of a day so:

vote IH

I also think IH isn't on target at all with Tony being definite scum, but I may let other players analyze that for themselves...




Skruff's badlogic:

Well, and I don't want to bring metagaming into this, but it's there... NAR told me when he asked me to replace for him that he wanted to be replaced because he thought it was the best thing he could do for town. Which is actually kind of thoughtful, because I know some players who have no trouble getting themselves lynched, because they don't care about the game. So you can say that NAR is at least caring about the game, regardless of which alignment he is. He is town, of course. Err, was. I'm town.

This does absolutely nothing to convince me that NAR is town. His behavior was overtly scummy, and him replacing out may show that he cares about the game, but does

nothing

to show his allignment. NAR could just have easily, and imo more likely, have replaced out because he knew his behavior was overtly scummy and he didn't want to screw over his scumbuddies.

Skruffs trying to use NAR's replacing out as evidence that NAR was in fact town is complete bs, and is a lame attempt at covering for NAR's scummy play. Skruffs, I know you, and you can do better than that.

Guardian, if John is the 'hinge', then why are you targetting everyone else?
If lynching John - now Yogurt Bandit - would result in VitR and possibly IH being scum, why would you instead go after VitR?

My PBPA (not bpba) was pretty much stream of conciousness. I said right in there that my opinions were going to flavor it - but overall I think it was fairly objective and it brought up all of the issues I saw in it.

Fos : Guardian

Welcoem to the game.

I already said that I misremembered the situation. I don't have much time in Spain to sit at a computer and read, but I have lots of time to think while hiking. I thoght and still think IH and Vitr are linked. In doing so, I remembered both IH and Vitr defending John. This was simply not the case. In fact, it was more of IH pushing for Occult's lynch over John, and Vitr actually trying to lynch John. I still see them as linked, but John turning up scum directly would only make a better case for IH, not for Vitr directly. Because of IH's defending John, his connection to Vitr, and his badlogic, I am beginning to think that he is a better lynch than John today. I am happy to see any of the 4 of you hang though, because you are still the most scummy imo. I am more happy though to see IH or John hang, though, because those are the players that have connections with others. I don't take much stock in your FOS btw, because before replacing in I thought I had the game figured out and I still think I do, and that involves you being scum.




My reasons for thinking the scum are bussing John/YB:

Pretty sure people are trying to deflect attention from scum onto a scum-defender.

YEah, pretty sure scum protected John. That was ignored in the haste to get the townie lynched.

Exactly- which is why Occult got lynched. He defended John - and if John was actually scum, his buddies couold partially clear him while looking pro-town by piling up on someone who was defending him (a townie). The person shows up townie, the actual scum is cleared - move on to someone else.

Orrr... something like this.

Mmk, this guy is opportunistic scum.

Occult today, Tony tomorrow.

Ignore actual scum, lynch scum-defender, move to next scummy townie.

Analyze those three posts, and tell me you don't see Skruffs as directing his scum buddies to wagon John. Which he and Vitr are doing, and IH is stoicly refusing to do...

So yeah, IH John Skruffs Vitr... the scum four. There you go.

[Guardian]

If we are not careful with our votes, scum will be able to steer the lynches and win. Did they win nightless one?

Stressing makes you be more careful with votes in the future.... Not stressing makes it seem OK for there to be another mislynch.... and then you can be all, "oh, well don't stress, let's just try again"....


Yes I could, but I'm not sure doing so would help the town, it would only help you ammend your behavior. Town players can see the errors for themselves.

Also, I lack the time required (as of this moment) to do what you request, even if I wanted to. There are flaws, and you and Vitr are definitely linked though, from near the beginning of the game onward.

[Guardian]

Welcome Hautboy.

IH, your basis for attacking Tony is that he had bad reasons for defending Occult, and that if Occult was scum then surely Tony would be too... Well great, but Occult was town. I am assuming that Tony's reasoning was faulty because he is newer, not because he is scum...

Defending town players IS NOT a scum tell. It isn't a "town tell", I am still unsure about Tony, but it is DEFINITELY NOT a scum tell. Pursuing Tony because of this is just more bad logic. I understand looking at him with suspicion yesterday, but today? Come on.

You then try and tie me with Tony and FOS me. The way your play is going, I would not be suprised that if we did lynch Tony, and he turned up town, you would still attack me for defending him "for bad reasons".

Also, I note your unwillingness to vote for John. If he turns up scum (which I think he will, but I'm not as sure on him as I am on you) all the arrows will point to IH scum.

I am not sure that spelling everything out like this is the best pro town strategy, but with a deadline... I definitely want to see an IH lynch, a John lynch would be acceptable though.

[Guardian]

I am in a pay for internet place right now so, some short points.

1) Skruffs, if (when, imo) John turns up scum, will you support an IH lynch?

2) Romanus is looking more and more scummy indeed. His post about the IH thing is interesting because he remembers IH targeting John when he in fact is targeting Tony. I misremembered earlier so I wasn't sure to bring this up as being scummy, but that has been rather a central theme so it is a bit suspicious to me. IH and Romanus linkage? Also, his unvote of me, while appreciated, came without reasoning. Why Romanus?

3) IH... I feel that you are just making stuff up here. Tony defending Occult because he thought Occult was a townie being lynched. His reasoning was subpar, but your reasoning about how defending townies is scummy strikes me the wrong way indeed.

Guys, deadline is in what, a day? So um, lynch IH please. Or at least don't lynch someone besides IH or John

One more day of hiking! Later!

[Guardian]

Every game I have been in here so far gets super active when I am in it .

Mod

, a deadline with this kind of activity is ridiculous and only hurts town. Please remove the deadline, as discussion has picked up enormously. And send the cheque for improving activity in your game to the address I provided.

Hmm, loads of stuff to respond to...

Romanus, I just cast a wide net and point out anything I see. You didn't hint as to why those scenarios about me were plausible or which you thought was more likely...

Also:

I don't like this Yogurt Bandit wagon at all. The only argument I have really seen, and repeatedly is that John should have been lynched yesterday, or yesterday we knew he should be lynched today, so, let's lynch him.

The problem with following a script as IH's post was described as, is that it is really easy for scum to just go along with the plan. I am not so much condemning IH for having the plan, as I am pointing the finger at people who are simply parroting IH to get an easy Yogurt lynch.

IH IS NOT pushing for the YB lynch. He is pushing for a Tony lynch. It is extremely careless for you to have missed that altogether, especially after I pointed it out to you.

I also really disagree that Aimee is the lynch for today. IH is the lynch for today, because he is scum. There was actually some reasoning behind his case on Tony, though. I will ponder this over the next day...

I find YB's play suprisingly both noobish and townlike. Here's why. He bandwagons IH with little reasoning because he thinks it's better for town for IH to be lynched rather than him, and he then goes after Aimee when he thinks she is scumy, forgetting why he originally voted IH. He even votes her for bandwagoning when his last vote was a bandwagon, lol.
He then forgot that this was a nightless game. Like John before him, I find it hard to believe that anyone receiving the scum PM would not realize that there was no NK. Someone who got the vanilla PM, on the other hand, might make such an oversight and forget that this is a nightless game, because for vanillas there is little difference in how the game will play out for nightless/nightful. I have no intention of ignoring John's posts, however. I could, possibly, be wrong about John/YB. I don't think so though, I think IH or John is the play for today. Also, with such silly reasoning, YB may not be someone the town wants around, town or scum.

Skruffs, stop actively lurking, it makes the case against you even easier. Also, do you not find IH an appealing candidate? He pushed for the Occult lynch, and is now pushing for Tony who in your own words was a scummy townie instead of pushing for John who you believe to be scum.

Elias, I await that post, I realized that I only didn't find you scummy because you have been lurking all game.

If deadline is not removed, I implore you all to lynch IH or John and not some other ridiculous last minute wagon (like Aimee's imo, her post was in the context of a deadline and wasn't really scummy at all), preferably IH.

That's all I can think of for now, adios.

[Guardian]

er, Ive hardly been lurking all game.

True, sorry. You have been lurking since I joined, but that's been only a few days. You had some substantive midgame posts, again apologies. I reread your posts and still have no great reason to think you are scum, and I now remember that your didn't blip my scumdar because I agreed with your logic.

My thoughts on you:

i think any intelligent scum would make it a point not to ask that, but ask about some other power role

This is an open setup... power roles? Scum who forgot there were no power roles? Only scummy thing I saw by you.

Midgame you attack NAR a lot, sentiments I agree with.
Then Skruffs replaced and you analyzed him as being probable scum... which I again agree with.

That's pretty much a summary of what I get from you... an attack on NAR/Skruffs... I agree with it though, he is on my list of scum four.

Skruffs, please answer my question about if you agree that IH is a good lynch, especially if John is lynched and turns up scum. You can't have missed it; this is the third time I am mentioning it.

[Guardian]

GUardian - I'm curious why you think NAR was scum... presumably it's based on the same reasons Elias thinks so - but Elias actually saw what NAR said and is upset because of that. You haven't seen any of the aggravational stuff that NAR directly said - just other people's opinons nad recollections on it. So for you to agree that I am scum because of an argument that you haven't even - and can't - read, that's wrong.

I was reading this game even when I wasn't in it because nightless interested me and Simenon told me he was modding a game. I got to see NAR's craziness. Even had I not, hearing other's reactions to it pretty much describes what happened.

ANd to answer your question, I rather think that IH will probbaly turn up scum if Yogurt man does. A fe other people - namely the minus 2 and minus 1 votes on occult - would also b ehigh on my list.

Well, I agree with Vitr, Missmoo not so much.

Maybe, just maybe, you are town. I would like to see IH lynched first, then John/YB, but if John is indeed lynched first and turns up scum as we suspect, then we may be in agreement... And I would find it hard to believe that you would bus John and then IH, nailing two of your buddies in a row... Maybe though [/stream of consciousness]

[Guardian]

Guardian/ Skruffs: You guys seem confident that YB is scum, and if he comes up scum, then IH will be. But it seems that Guardian is pressing for the IH lynch more. My question: If IH is lynched, and comes up town, will you still pursue a YB lynch? or will this clear him in your mind?

I wouldn't pursue it without rethinking. It wouldn't clear him in my mind, but I would really reconside my initial read of the game.

This is exactly why I want an IH lynch over the YB lynch, because I am more sure that IH is scum than I am that YB is scum. If YB is lynched and shows up as scum, then great, but if YB is lynched and shows up town, then I will be in a dificult position because I see IH and YB as linked, but I am more confident of IH being scum. I could envision IH scum and YB town... It is harder for me to envision YB scum and IH town. I am not sure that I articulated this well, but this is why I want to see IH swing first.

I would hammer YB right before deadline, because I do support his lynch, to an extent, and I will put my actions where my words are.

MOD

my cheque has not yet arrived, and you have not yet lifted the deadline D:.

[Guardian]

YB,

that

post was almost scummy enough for me to be happy with lynching you today. Pro town players are always trying to hunt scum, and even when they die their confirmed town analysis helps the town. If you are indeed town, please post your analysis of the players in the game so that we can learn something even in your death.

I strongly disagree with IH in that Occult's suspicions of who was scummy and who wasn't ARE useful to the town. Maybe this is just IH trying to throw sand in our eyes though.

Someone brought up that the reason we are lynching YB is his mistake and John's pregame question. I find him scummy for completely different reasons, and I think that this reason alone is a horrible reason to lynch someone. Everyone voting for him, please explain

why

you are voting for him; I find that pre-game question as a town tell not a scum tell for reasons I outlined earlier, and I will be suspicious of anyone who is on the YB lynch just because of that question, especially if YB turns up town... YB being lynched for that reason alone is quite disturbing.

Aimee, I undestood that all along, I still get a town read on you, and I am suspicious of the people who tried to start an Aimee wagon/read into that post as being scummy.

[Guardian]

Everyone voting for YB, please explain

why

you are voting for him; I find that pre-game question as a town tell not a scum tell for reasons I outlined earlier, and I will be suspicious of anyone who is on the YB lynch just because of that question, especially if YB turns up town... YB being lynched for that reason alone is quite disturbing.

I mean this for everyone on his wagon. Please explain why you are voting for him, or refer (link preferable) to where you explained this earlier.

Momentum against Aimee is growing... it would be very easy for scum to jump on if she is town, which I still think she is after a reread of her posts... Doubt is building for me though, Romanus makes some good points .

A few questions I would like answered if you don't mind: Aimee, if the deadline and voting and all that wasn't an issue, and you could just vig kill one player, who would it be? That is to say, who is your top scum suspect? Is it John? If not, then why are you not making any cases against this player?

[Guardian]

Damn cyber cafes. I had to type this post twice, the first time the machine froze...

I think that three scum are thowing their new comrade under the bus - but I have no problem with this. If not, then we have mystery scum #4 and Skruffs IH and Vitr still seem scummy to me, though I would be wrong about Skruff's leading his buddies. I am like 80% sure YB is scum though... IH still would have been a better lynch for today, I'm like 90% sure on him.

Aimee, IH, Romanus, Skruffs, and Vitr have provided adequate reasons for their votes, and I doubt mustafa will before deadline.

I do have a problem with Aimee hammering before YB gets a chance to post though. YB, you are going to be lynched, but if you are town post your final analysis of who you find to be scum; confirmed town analysis can only help us.

[Guardian]

a) Because I don't find him scummy - you three plus YB I found scummy ever since I replaced in. Like I said, I think I have a read on this game.
b) Because he lurked his way through another game I played with him, and don't expect his behavior to change. If it does, then great. I just don't find his behavior here scummy.

[Guardian]

Gah. I just don't expect him to come, so I don't want Aimee to have to wait for him if YB comes and mustafa has yet to come. I would obviously prefer if we got his reasons before YB is lynched - I would like his reasoning at any time he can provide it, though.

I doubt YB is going to post suspicions or that mustafa is going to come. I am very tempted to just lynch now so we can move on to day 3.

[Guardian]

Yay, 1/4 correct so far!

Vitr voting IH right off the bat... that is interesting... Maybe I read you wrong...

Anyways, I'm still almost sure that IH is the play for today, if people really want me to I can make a longass post outlining why I think this when I get back to the states.

Vote: IH

2 more days in Spain .

[Guardian]

Wow. I am going to re-read again when I get time, but I am not at all thinking that Aimee is scum at this point. I see the case against her and where it might come from, but I think it is misguided...

Aimee, you agree about IH, but no vote?

Hmm lol... I will do that re-read asap. Meh, I think it is a good thing to be careful with votes though if you are unsure... But if you feel strongly that someone is scum, go for it.

I will also look for what Vitr mentioned about mustafa; I am less convinced of his alignment being pro-town, but have little evidence for that lingering suspicion.

[Guardian]

OK, I did that reread. It mostly confirmed what I've been thinking all along, but with a few changes. Fresh in my mind, this is what I got from it:

Vitr looks kinda scummy still. He has now changed his stance on Mustafa, which is interesting. Mustafa did support the Occult lynch though...
Musafa could be scum. I have no strong read on him...
There is definitely a case on Aimee... but she is nowhere near most suspicious. I definitely don't think she is the play for today.
BM and Romanus really went at it for stupid reasons, but I still think Romanus is more likely town than scum.
Elias is the most townlike of everyone. He built a good case against Skruffs and was open to other's opinions, and was actively suspicious.
IH still looks scummy as hell. I didn't like his case against Tony, as Tony just seems like a new player trying to play this game well.
Skruffs continues to look pretty scummy.
Occult saw a Vitr Skruffs scum pair. BM liked Skruffs analysis though.
One thing that is kinda new: There is a possibility HB is scum. Miss moo supported the Occult wagon with little reasoning, and got a townie lynched. She then targeted mustafa for not so great reasons.

Insomnia ...

[Guardian]

The thing about

mustafa

Aimee is that my gut is telling me

he

she is town, but some of his actions concerning John are pretty advantageous to scum.

I did a re-read of Aimee's posts independently... And yeah, what Vitr said about mustafa, I feel about Aimee. And I trust my gut here - and logic also tells me that Aimee is not the best play for today. Romanus, the way you feel about the IH case is exactly how I feel about the Aimee case. D:

I will try to make a longer post via IH, answering some of his questions and outlining the case against him... as apparently I have some convincing to do.

Truer words were never spoken that finding scum is useless if you cannot convince the town that you have, indeed, found scum. IH, you are putting up a valliant fight...

On a last note, I was saddened but not altogether too suprised that Vitr is now backing down from an IH lynch; I thought it was too good to be true. Vitr, you must realize that I take your post outlining my post with a grain of salt; it's great that you mostly agree with me and that you think I am town... but you disagree on

2

now maybe 3 of the people I think are scum... I will try and respond in more detail later, possibly before the IH post.

[Guardian]

I just got back from Spain (8.5 hour flight) and I don't feel quite up to making either of the posts I promised just yet...

All I wish to say at this moment is that I think it is a bad idea to let the Aimee suspicions gain too much momentum too quickly, as Aimee will not be able to address any cases against her for a week. If we are going to have a conversation about Aimee, someone needs to be representing her side. I would volunteer but for two reasons: I want to make the two posts I promised, and I don't want to appear even more defending of Aimee than I already am should she somehow turn up scum.

[Guardian]

I will make the case against IH in a few days, or less, maybe. I am really active in my other games right now, I have loads of real life stuff to attend to after getting back from Spain, and I don't have the effort/time to put into the IH case at the moment.

One thing I can do right now is an impromptu top to bottom scumlist, top being scum.

John
<gap>
IH
<big gap>
Skruffs
<gap>
Vitr
mustafa
HautBoy
Tony
Aimee
<gap>
Romanus
Elias
<huge gap>
Occult


Maybe this will help people understand my defense of Aimee... I just think that she is one of the

worst

possible lynches with IH being the (obvious?) best.

Guys, let's all try and pick up the activity and not get deadline screwed. I fear that if we get deadlined, Aimee is going to get pushed to a lynch...
Shoot, I might just start defending Aimee if I have time to get the IH case out and do that at the same time...

One thing about me getting experienced players lynched. By my count, when I joined I had as possible targets:
IH, Skruffs, Vitr, Aimee, Romanus, Elias = 6 experienced
John, mustafa, HautBoy, Tony = 4 non-experienced.

It does not seem relevant to me, with those numbers, that I happened to suspect 3 experienced and 1 inexperienced players... And I target an experienced first, with the plan to target John second, and I said admittedly that IH and Vitr are interrelated. And I was going after Skruffs in good part because of Nar's actions. And I am only marginally sure about Vitr...

I think a more suspicious thing to note about my cases is that they

all

have logic behind them. This should really cause us to disregard them. ... IH's argument about who I am targeting is one of many misleading things he has said, and it does build towards my case of him as scum.

In seriousness, MeMe's user title says it all for us at this point: we must Post or Perish!

[Guardian]

I'm pretty sure he meant Red Herring... I don't think I misrepresented you. You are distracting from actual good arguments. Bringing up Red Herrings like that one is part of why I think you are mafia.

[Guardian]

IH - I don't quite follow. Bad logic cases are Red Herrings, good logic cases are not. If I committed a logical fallacy please let me know...

Skruffs... I am MurphmanB on AIM... We may not have played in a forum game, but we played in/I watched you play in like what, at least 10 UPICKS?

If I seem off, let me know where. Again, I am thinking you scum at the moment... but logic is never a bad thing. I highly take offense to that my scum list is useless... it is giving an as clear as possible representation of who I think is scum. And btw, if we know IH is scum... why have you still not voted on him? And I

feel

really sure that IH is scum, but you may have made a slip in typing so fast... "we already

know

IH is scum". Please do do your research, I think you will find that there is not much there...

Skruffs, I didn't know you were attracted to me in that way... I am just an hour's drive away, give me a call big boy.

[Guardian]

Hmm. Ok, I am willing to let this point slide, somewhat. The reason in question that I am suspicious of you for is not because your play reminded me of Skruffs scum (that apparently never existed) - it is because your play did not remind me of Skruffs-town. But you claim forum play is that significantly different from scumchat play... and if that is so, then maybe I am getting a null tell there.

I am happy you agree with me that slinging votes around is irresponsible unless you feel confident about them. I feel really sure that IH is the play. I was kind of dreaming that I wouldn't have to put all the effort into building the IH case, which is going to be a pain in the neck, but I will also work on one.

A central part of my mafia theory is that all town players should try and provide a paper trail as much as possible to give other town players the opportunity to get a read on them. The more town post, the more town they look. The more scum post, the more likely that they are to slip up. So, I will also definitely try and outline my reasons for voting IH, to show the town that they are there and that I am not just bussing a partner or something like that. I will get back from errands later today... Hopefully some content then.

[Guardian]

Oh, I was just using the common knowledge definition of being distracting. I didn't know that Red Herring meant intentionally distracting.

IH, I will try to build the case on you; what is really going on is that I am getting busy after coming back from vacation and don't have the time to build a case that would do justice to what I think lies in the evidence of your posts and votes. I may do an abbreviated case where I just point out a few of your actions I find as scummiest and see how you respond.

[Guardian]

Elias, I would like to hear your thoughts on myself, Romanus, and Vitr.

IH case may be forthcoming unless something comes up today.

[Guardian]

It means that I am really busy and this is the game I am most apatehtic about of the games I am in (sorry guys, will work on that).

I did like half of the 20+ pages of quotes on Vitr + IH + Skruffs linkeage last night, I will try and do the rest today and post it. After that, I will get the IH case done because so many people are, rightfully I guess, demanding it.

Elias, thanks a lot for doing as I requested, I will explain why I did after you do Vitr.

[Guardian]

Yeah, friends called me so tonight doesn't look good. Maybe tomorrow. FYI.

[Guardian]

OK Elias, I asked you to do it for the following reason:

I thought we had a group of four likely town like players who all trusted each other's townness, minus me trusting Vitr. If I were willing to let slide for a moment that I don't trust Vitr, and I was right about my impression of having four town like players who thought the other three were town like, then we would have an interesting alternate strategy/side strategy for winning.

As long as the four players kept seeming townlike, and we still trusted each other, we could just keep lynching people not in our group, and would eventually get all the scum. Even if we got all the scum except one (Vitr? ), there would be four of us left with two chances to get that scum lynched.

I thought the perceptions were/the perceptions actually are:

Elias thinks:

Guardian: is likely town/is likely town if I

can

get around to

proving I had reasons for the connections and suspicions I stated.
Romanus: is likely town/may be scum
Vitr: is likely town/neutral

Vitr thinks:

Guardian: is likely town/is likely town
Romanus: is likely town/is likely town
Elias: is likely town/is likely town

Guardian thinks:

Romanus: is likely town
Vitr: is likely scum, but for the purposes of this maybe willing to say that he is likely town
Elias: is very likely town

Romanus thinks:

Guardian: is likely town/neutral but others think he is town
Vitr: is likely town/is likely town
Elias: is likely town/???

So, Elias, if your suspicions were what I was hoping them to be, we'd have had this nice little club of four that could probably help win the game. But we don't, so oh well. I like how you are still suspicious of everyone, and even though it ruins my plan it makes you look more townlike in my eyes...

I will do my utmost to get the IH-Vitr-Skruffs linkage out tonight, with the IH is scummy reasoning following thereafter.

[Guardian]

Why? No one can seem to agree on who is scum (except a lot of people want to lynch Aimee, which I think is a bad play), and I was thinking about how we could win the game despite that. It seemed to me that with one scum down, finding out four very likely townies would be just as helpful as finding three very likely scum (which again, I think I've done...).

[Guardian]

If I were scum and the three of you are town, how is that bad....? You would have two tries to lynch me, and if you guys thought I was scum and lynched me, it would still result in a town win.

I will do the case on IH asap, as I said above. That may take a few days; I plan to have it done by when he gets back though.

Why do you think I am out of my skull about Vitr, other than your analysis of page two?

[Guardian]

The IH - Vitr - Skruffs linkage

Ok, I realized the only way I could get this done is to do one thing at a time. Otherwise I will just get frustrated and apathetic and not do it. This post is dedicated to the IH-Vitr-Skruffs link. The post specifically focused on IH being scummy will come later.

Vote:Vitamin

He is most definitely scum this time

He

is

your partner

and

you felt the need to random vote him?

unvote, vote:John

Good call on that one Vit.

This is obvious, and has been brought up before.

Yes, it's very suspicious. We don't even have a real page and everyone is already jumping on john.

Vote blahgo
Fos IH and VitaminR

Seems like an attempt to start a bandwagon to me.
Vit for starts it
IH agrees to keep it moving
blahgo doesn't even give an explanation, thats why he gets the vote. We need more to go on before we lynch in a nightless

I'd imagine you should go read my former post.

Bandwagons are not intrinsically bad, but you need to watch who jumps on for no reason at all.

Like Blahgo.

FoS:Blahgo

Speedlynches are just as scummy, because they indicate rushing the town through a lynch, and that you want the game to be over as soon as possible.

Speedlynches are almost always bad.

Here he defends himself (and thus Vitr) of the pairing and asks that he should go read earlier posts. He then diverts attention to blagho.

Unvote: John,
Vote: mustafa15

Occult, bandwagons are just a way to make people come out of the woodwork. I don't see how you can FOS me for starting one. It was pretty valuable as I see it.

I also don't like how you're almost assuming John to be town.

Uses the same reasons IH used, but then distances from IH

and

John by moving on to mustafa.

I think I'm going to

unvote, vote:Occult

at the moment.

Not for Blahgo at the moment, but just for mischaracterizing that as a lynching wagon.

<snip>

I'm going to vote Occult. He seems incredibly content to push an easy now a ranger wagon, but when it came to the John wagon early on (which had a substantial amount of content for an early wagon) he was very cautious and quick to point out the danger of quicklynching.

I feel you're applying a double standard and I don't like how you're already primed to attack now a ranger's replacement.

I think John and Occult are scum and I would really like to see one of them dead today.

Unvote: John,
Vote: Occult

Different logic, same result. Notice how Vitr also defends Skruffs here.

That's a double standard.

Bad Pregame post does not equal a lynch.

It never came anywhere near a lynch. No one on the wagon called for a lynch. You were the only one who saw it as a likely outcome.

And here he uses the exact same logic IH used.

154 Vitr again connects with Skruffs.

Also, can we lynch Occult?

Doesn't do much for me...

Vote Count
Battle Mage- mustafa15, Romanus
Elias_the_theif- John
Occult-

IH, VitaminR, Skruffs

Skruffs- Elias_the_thief
Romanus- Battle Mage

With twelve alive, it’s seven to lynch.

What link? Come on. John then FOS's Occult in the next post; no wonder they felt the need to lynch John day two.

And that's where the double standard comes in. You accused me of defending john while attacking NAR. Saying my double standard was scummy.

Nah, I accused you of a different point of view on whether or not it is bad that a wagon develops quickly.

As for IH jumping on the John thing: yeah, that was suspicious, but I don't see how IH following my vote equals a connection between us. You could argue for a connection between the first and second voter of any wagon based on that.

And: yeah, Chevelle rocks.

Explicitly tries to distance from obvious connection.

<snip>
NAR was just too scummy for me to not jump on, he switched his vote like 6 times in 8 posts. Probably looking back, he was being NAR-ish, and

I think Skruffs is protown at the moment.

IH-Skruffs.

I would suggest having everyone post their resons for voting or not voting me before you actually lynch me. That way you know everyone's stance after you get the results from the lynch. I believe this will be much more beneficial for the town.

I agree. I believe my reason is clear.

I'm voting you for a double standard concerning the speed with which the John and now a ranger's wagons built up.

Reasons for voting Occult
<snip>
2)His 'closesness with John'
<snip>
3)

I'm not assuming John is town, but I do see his reasoning for his question.

I saw it as a quick bandwagon as it looked like th lynch was going to come in under 4 pgs.

And until blahgo addresses why he didn't give any reasoning my vote stands

When that was clearly not turning into a lynch, but more of a less than random wagon to get things started.
<snip>

Vitr and IH (in point 3) have the exact same reasoning. Also note how IH uses closeness with John as a scumtell...

For the next few pages Vitr + IH use similar reasoning for Occult lynch, whereas Skruffs + IH push for the John lynch (bus imo).

Imma gonna be lurky-slackin' the next ten days or so.. but i iwll post at least every other day.
(BTW I ROLEBLOCKED VITR LAST NIGHT WHICH IS WHY THERE WAS NO DEATHS KTHX)

Jokes are scummy.

Jokes like that one are scummy.

Skruffs was obviously Joking.

And you needed to defend him after two others had, because?...

Skruffs then starts to hardcore push for the John lynch, and hops on after Vitr does. I think they're setting up a succesfful bus.

In 434 I come in and point out the linkage, so after this I assume they might be more careful. They all end up on the John wagon though, voters 1-2-4. I pointed out earlier the posts that Skruffs was making that I believer were directing the scum team to bus. Click here to see my logic on that.

Yeah from 434 on they kind of stop, mostly, but one interseting thing is that Skruffs and Vitr said that if John came up scum they would indeed be interesed in an IH lynch the next day... and now the next day has come, and both are setting themselves up to back out from that, depending on how the wind blows. Vitr to lynching Aimee, Skruffs to I don't know where. Also, IH in post 551 is somewhat telling...

I amsooooooooooo sick >.< so myreasoning may not be sound atm
But I would like to go back and see who did the most to push the wagon from john onto occult day one. Esp anyone who claimed vitr/me's arguments as the reasoning for it.

it actually shifted from John, to Occult defending John, to NAR, to me pushing for Occult. So I am probably the one to blame for that.

In sum, I think there is very good reason to believe they are linked, and to believe that they are scum, especially IH and Skruffs. Like I said, case on IH specifically comes next.

[Guardian]

Well, I am happy I got a universally

positive

negative response for all that work . A few things to respond to...

Romanus, basically, you predicted this, and are now blaming me for putting the 1-2 hours of effort in that it took to make that post....

IH --

I sort of see a link between you and Vitr

, but I think

it stems from you two taking a similar stance from the beginning of the game

. From there it just kind of feels like it, but I think it is just because you were connected in the beginning.

Trying to make a case out of it, by not making any case for it is ridiculous and a tad scummy. But if he says he doesn't have time, I have to take that at face value.

Quite honestly I need to do a reread and figure this game out. No one seems to be standing out. Every case seems really forced. Of course, that just may be the nature of this sort of game.

IH... I don't have the effort or motivation to address your post fully at this time. I still feel that you are scum, and are fighting this like anything... Your "

true

logic" was used to lynch a townie day one, it can't have been that true...

Tony, I made this link first because Elias requested me to, in his numerical things I needed to do list. He did exactly what I asked with his opinions on the three players I mentioned, so I figured it was only fair ... The case on IH will take another 1-2 hours, 595 took about 20 minutes.

Elias, I figured you wouldn't like the idea, I said as much; you find all the players in it suspicious. Notice how Elias didn't disregard the idea itself out of hand, and was willing to at least consider it. Elias = town.

Vitr, you seem like you are laughing good-humoredly at a noob's bad case . Gah! If you are town... then you are being kind here, if you are scum, that's a great way to dismiss my case without really addressing it.

Mustafa, your post makes sense... I thought the alliance idea could work but... lol in another game I'm playing a new player got in trouble for suggesting lots of theory ideas, I guess if it isn't in practice already there is a reason for it... I really thought IH and Vitr looked connected through what I pointed out... If that just isn't "

true

logic", then sorry...

@anyone: If that is not the sort of thing I am supposed to be looking for in scum hunting, what is?
@anyone: Considering the warm reception that this was received by, should I put in the time to do the IH case that probably has similar flaws...? I think I will, just to let you know that I am thinking, but if for some reason it is bad, then sorry . Gah.

I am willing to consider that besides John, my read on this game is off. I had such a strong feeling that I was getting it right though....

I still hold the opinion that Aimee is town, but I would like for her to address the points against her; maybe you guys are not scum and are right again...

[Guardian]

#1 -- Logic has nothing to do with True or False, so stop using it that way.

#2 -- Something is either logical or not, not "true logic" or "false logic" or whatever

IH introduced these concepts/terms, so why the hell are you attacking me for them?

#3 -- The logic is not wrong if it is indeed logic. The problem comes in with the assumptions you have to make before you apply the logic.

Therefore, a case can be completely logical and still be wrong.

So are you saying my argument is completely logical, but that my assumptions are bad? And then still attacking me for it?

#4 -- We really aren't dealing with logic here as much as we are dealing with arguments. Arguments can be all sorts of things like contrived, weak, strong, scummy, townie, etc, etc.

OK...

Guardian, appealing to my emotions about how crappy your arguments are just because it took you hours upon hours to manufacture them is scummy.

Is it my fault that you are scum taking hours to manufacture arguments against townies that are immediately dismissed by the town at large? No.

Romanus, I'm not appealing to your emotions, I'm pointing out how you first said that IH and Vitr appeared link for the exact reasons I pointed out by quoting them, and are now calling me scummy for it. You are sailing up my scumlist for attacking me for pointing out the evidence for the case that you earlier agreed to was there, and for helping to divert attention from IH.

I am no longer leaning to the side of you being a misguided townie, but rather to the side that you are scum.

UNVOTE
Vote: Guardian

Aimee can now wait. You have become top priority.

And this has changed from the top of the page to now because what, I pointed out your contradiction? Setting up the Aimee can now wait and attacking me is typical scum saying one person is scummy but going after the other. The whole town didn't like my logic, and now you are putting pressure on me full throttle, that reeks of opportunism.

[Guardian]

First of all, the "rules of logic" were not directed at you, they were directed at everyone. If I was talking to just you, I would have prefaced it with your name, like I did later in the post.

B-a-c-k-t-r-a-c-k. The whole 4 points were directed at me, and you said my name after them.

Secondly, I stated that I could see how someone would link IH and VitR in the beginning of the game, but my real point was that there is no real connection. What I was saying is that I felt the connection as well, but upon my reread for that particular connection, that was all I found. You, Guardian, were pushing that connection into a case of both of them being scum, which is just ridiculous.

I am not saying the connection means they are scum. I am saying it means they are connected. I also think they are all scum, will eventually do a case on IH, etc. I think them all acting scummy, and being connected, make them scum.

I have stated again and again that I did not completely let you off the hook, but that I was moving away from you to find scum the town was more interested in.

OK, that is true.

The reason I dropped the case on BM/Guardian is because of his posts, which BM had failed to do, and was no small part of my suspicion. Also, I believe I spell out why I left Guardian. The other point was that it wasn't helping the town. I haven't completely left Guardian as a suspect, but it is clear that the town does not find him highly suspect. I will have to do the work to build a case against him. In the meantime I think I have found more fruitful ground, that is, actual scummy behavior. From my last post, you can see that my suspicions of IH have gone way up. I am not letting Aimee of the hook until she returns, and this is why my vote stays on Aimee, but I am really good with an IH lynch right now.

Opportunistic? No, now I just have a case to build against you. I think you are scum that pushed his position a little too far. You thought you had the lead on the town, you thought you could guide it, but then you actually tried to manufacture an argument that no one else was seeing, and in doing so you showed your true colors.

In addition, trying to push suspicion back onto me, someone you have not seen fit to suspect the whole game is another rather scummy play. The fact is that you know you've been found out and the only thing you can do is lash out and throw the suspicion right back on the person who has been suspicious of you from the first. To try and even claim that my position on you is something new is just ridiculous, yet again.

Furthermore, if I was just going to be opportunistic scum, why not just go after IH? I could get on in the middle of the wagon, a nice safe place. Hell, I have even set out a bit of an argument against her. Why not keep mining that ground for the easier lynch against IH or even Aimee.

I still find you in the middle of my list of suspicious players, but you are nowhere confirmed town anymore. No one else in the town besides me liked the IH case that much (maybe Vitr ?) and you were on the Aimee case that everyone liked. Now, when not one person responds positively to my linkage, you attack me. That is definitely opportunistic. You even admit it is; you attack Aimee first when the town finds her suspicious, and now attack me when the town finds me suspicious.

I think you have been trying to steer this lynch toward IH for quite some time, without any argument really. We have been promised one for ages, then, especially when Aimee becomes a target and even equals IH in the votecount, you come up with ridiculous argument about people who actually agree with each other and therefore must be scum.

IH and Vitr agreeing doesn't make them scum, it makes them connected. IH argument will come if people still want it. You are twisting my words.

My scumdar has been pinging on you for quite some time. I left it alone for a while, which turns out to be a good decision, since now, when you felt comfortable, you come up with two or three of the scummiest posts ever, and I mean ever. You want to form a coalition? I may trust one other person enough to do that, but three others, no freakin way. Only a scum would try to endear himself to the town in such a way.

This is clear hyperbole. Scummiest posts ever? Come on. I am taking a step back after this post, but you are just jumping onto a hot candidate, in my view.

[Guardian]

Aimee, it seems/seemed to me there were about 6 people who wanted to lynch you, and I think/thought you were a poor choice for today. So I defended you. You are back now, defend yourself.

[Guardian]

Aimee, I still think you are a horrible lynch for today. But if I am reading this game wrong, and you get lynched, and you turn up scum, it is bad for town for me to be so connected with you. So, at this point I doubt I will vote for you today, but you are here and can defend yourself; getting you to post more content is good and me being linked to you is bad, so you defending yourself is win-win.

[Guardian]

I'm defending her because the case is weak. I'd much rather be considered linked to Aimee then see her lynched for weak reasons. There are much better lynch candidates out there.

QFT.

I'd rather she not be lynched and I not be linked to her, so hopefully that is possible. There is some possibility that the IH case will come tonight.

[Guardian]

IH is scummy case

Hey, before I go back and re-read, I want to lay out why I think IH is scummy. I'll just list the reasons:

1)Connection with John.
2)Leading a wagon away from John and onto Occult.
3)Trying to lynch people for bad reasons.
4)Anti-town, misleading logic, about how we have lives to give.
5)Responding to people's suspicions with appeasing actions/going with the flow.

I may use quotes less here, to follow my reasoning just read this post while looking at IH's posts separate from the other posts (two tabs, or copy paste into some text editor).

unvote, vote:John

Good call on that one Vit. I thought his statement looked Iffy, but I wasn't exactly sure what it meant, but you're probably right.

Tony, why didn't you put your vote on him if you thought it sounded good?

1. Distances here, then sets up Occult wagon later when pressure builds on John. Possibly the scummiest post of the game, imo.

Those of you who were talking about the John mini wagon of like... what, Two, maybe three votes?

Quit using the slippery slope

I think I'm going to

unvote, vote:Occult

at the moment.

Not for Blahgo at the moment, but just for mischaracterizing that as a lynching wagon.

2, starts leading the wagon. I think this might be the only post I quote for that, as his actions speak for themselves.

4, I've already quoted his logic about how we have 4 lives, and explained how I hated it, and how it is misleading because for every townie we lose it gets that much easier for scum to lead the wagon. This has been discussed a lot back and forth. I believe his logic will not possibly help the town.

2, 3, I think he had bad reasons for lynching Occult, Occult's mischaracterizing the wagon as a lynching wagon seemed innocuous to me, he votes Occult for closeness with John (why vote Occult for closeness with John, unless you

know

John is scum or suspect John

more

than Occult?), and for ignoring Skruff's earlier posts.

3, Later tries to get Tony lynched for defending Occult... a townie... Then says "Anyone who is voting for Tony for defending Occult is a moron btw." even though he is in part voting for Occult for Occult's closeness with John...

2, 3, Then says Tony is the play, for voting John, who IH finds Occult suspicious for closeness with, and wants Tony lynched on day two even when Occult shows up as town.

3, OMGUS's Tony when Tony points out that Occult is being singleminded about lynchign Tony.

he later talks about how John was an easier target than Occult but he found Occult scummier, I don't think that is true.

5, 3, Then FOS's Aimee for her choosing John over IH at deadline, goes along with the suspicion piled onto Aimee.

3, Throws suspicion at me for having experienced players on my scumlist... because I find the experienced players to be scummy...

5, I say his case on Tony is flawed for the obvious reason that Tony defending Occult is not a scum tell, he moves off Tony and on to others.

1, 5, I say that I note his reluctance to vote John, he initially says this is BS with me having no case against him, and then a few posts later votes John.

3, attacks me for... attacking him? for having a bad linkage case?

I am not sure if IH did things that were appeasing to other players, I noted that he did those two things vis a vis me.

Almost every post of IH's that I read I find scummy. I want him lynched, today. This case isn't as thorough as I'd have liked it to be, and I am sorry this case wasn't so quote laden as the previous one, I didn't have the motivation really after that case got so stuck down.

Also, I notice that I didn't point out many John-IH linkings, I thought more were there, even so the ones I did point out help build the case...

If you want to hear more from me on IH, I'm willing to do so maybe, but not if this case is supposedly a horrible case just like my linkage case was... I find it to be a strong case, and I still would like to see IH lynched today.

I still don't see how my linkage case was scummy, maybe bad, but scummy? I thought it was a good case.

[Guardian]

Romanus, my group of four idea wasn't trying to appease anyone, it was me legitimately thinking that there could be another way to win the game. Basically, I elaborately was stating "never lynch people you think are pro town". If all four of us thought the other three were pro town, and were right and kept not lynching each other, we would win the game... I still don't see how it was inherently such a bad idea.

IH's actions were responding to a direct request/going with the flow... which if you'll notice is the exact opposite of what I've done.

[Guardian]

I really find Aimee's not hammering a null tell. John got lynched either way, and her hammering or not hammering did nothing to change that. I find her actions, if anything, pro-town, because they showed a reasonable doubt that John was scum and gave (YB at the time I guess) him a chance to post his final thoughts if he was town.

[Guardian]

Guardian, I thought you were going to stop defending Aimee.

Liar.

I felt it was necessary since she was being questioned for doing what I asked her to do.

[Guardian]

1. Distances here, then sets up Occult wagon later when pressure builds on John. Possibly the scummiest post of the game, imo.

Silly guardian, while I will admit that is a scummy post, you continue to talk like i just pulled a distracting case on occult out of thin air. This was clearly not the case.

No, you pulled an Occult case out of him mis characterizing a bandwagon as a lynch wagon. That's

much

better.

4, I've already quoted his logic about how we have 4 lives, and explained how I hated it, and how it is misleading because for every townie we lose it gets that much easier for scum to lead the wagon. This has been discussed a lot back and forth. I believe his logic will not possibly help the town.

I stand by how it's a true statement. Nightless games are more likely to stall, as we've seen with consecutive deadlines, and play like that is just the way to keep the game going. I have nothing to defend against here, as it is true, town has 4 lives. For every correct lynch, we gain an extra life.

For every townie we lynch, it becomes easier for scum to steer the town. I stand by finding this point scummy.

2, 3, I think he had bad reasons for lynching Occult, Occult's mischaracterizing the wagon as a lynching wagon seemed innocuous to me, he votes Occult for closeness with John (why vote Occult for closeness with John, unless you know John is scum or suspect John more than Occult?), and for ignoring Skruff's earlier posts.

Quote the case against occult and tell me how it was so flawed.

Your case on Occult was largely due to how he mis characterized a John wagon as a lynch wagon - firstly, this connects you with John, secondly, terrible reason to lynch someone.

3, Later tries to get Tony lynched for defending Occult... a townie... Then says "Anyone who is voting for Tony for defending Occult is a moron btw." even though he is in part voting for Occult for Occult's closeness with John...

You've got it wrong buddy. I said on day 1 that anyone voting him for defending occult was a moron. Day 2 is an entirely different story.... you act like first I attacked him, and THEN said anyone attacking him for that reason was stupid.

NO, I am drawing a parallel. You on day one are mostly attacking Occult for his thoughts on the John lynch wagon, and for his defense of John. You then say that no one should lynch Tony day one for his defense of Occult. While you attack Occult on day one for his defense of John. Your argument is hypocritical.

3, OMGUS's Tony when Tony points out that Occult is being singleminded about lynchign Tony.

Where? I'd like a quote

I don't like the reaction between Tony and Occult starting at about 415 onward.

5, 3, Then FOS's Aimee for her choosing John over IH at deadline, goes along with the suspicion piled onto Aimee.

How does this even make sense? I didn't fos her for choosing him over me, I fosed her for trying to make a false dillema. Read the posts.

You FOS'd her because she had a real deadline dilemma, and went along with the crowd in attacking her.

1, 5, I say that I note his reluctance to vote John, he initially says this is BS with me having no case against him, and then a few posts later votes John.

I said that because it took you a DAY AND A HALF to give it.

I say you are relucant to vote John. You respond "No, guardian = BAD!!!". And then a few posts later, vote John, after I said I was suspicious of you for your reluctance to vote him.

Romanus, why do you keep flip flopping on whether my case on IH is good or not? First you say it is much better than the last, then say it needs to be obviously clear and are now with IH; where do you stand and what do you want? There are no obviously clear cases in mafia, but I think the case against IH is a darn good one.

I am honestly getting very frustrated with this game, I lay out cases and suspicions and people either disregard them or try and say I am scummy for trying to build the case... And no matter how much I type against IH, he keeps responding "well no, that is wrong." or "well, more evidence please" or "NO U". Gah!

[Guardian]

It can be very frustrating when a scum tries to direct the town and the town just will not follow.

......
That may be so; I can't imagine that that is more frustrating than being almost certain that I have found scum and have no one agree, and in fact have people call me scum for it.....

[Guardian]

Romanus, why do you keep flip flopping on whether my case on IH is good or not? First you say it is much better than the last, then say it needs to be obviously clear and are now with IH; where do you stand and what do you want? There are no obviously clear cases in mafia, but I think the case against IH is a darn good one.

Romanus I would like to know why you think Vitr and I are the most townie.

Actually,

unvote, vote:Romanus. IGMEOY:Guardian

1.Dodging the question in 662-3

2.Jumping from "This is a good case" to agreeing with me "This is a bad case"

I love how you use the same logic I use to find Romanus suspicious. I really don't know how to read this; that part of your post confuses me, as

IGMEOY

Romanus as well.

The rest of your post, I feel I am just being clumsy in articulation, because the case is a darn good one. I am frustrated because on almost every point, you say something is slightly different from how it was, or change the meaning of what I was trying to say a little bit, or use flashy rhetoric to try and make the case disappear....

[Guardian]

BM and Romanus really went at it for stupid reasons, but I still think Romanus is more likely town than scum.

I think both of these are town.

Elias is the most townlike of everyone. He built a good case against Skruffs and was open to other's opinions, and was actively suspicious.

I agree with this.

Just pointing out Vitr isn't flopping on Romanus, they are just patting each other's back. I am not sure how to read this, both of them are in my second tier of possible scum candidates along with Skruffs, with IH standing alone on the first tier...

Yes, that means my opinion of Romanus is changing. I don't like how he is trying to get me lynched over what I believe to be a good case. I don't like how he seemed to flip flop either (though I am considering his explanation of how he wasn't

really

flip flopping).

Vitr, you said my case(s) deserved addressing; will you address the first one?

Vitr is making a huge swing on Elias, though. Also, I did not quote it, but to be fair he has remained consistent on Aimee.

What I don't like about Romanus ans Vitr is how they are both patting each other on the back and trying to push for votes for players that, in my perception, are under the least suspicion. It's as if they want us to think everyone else is scummy; they are trying to make it so there is no one who is "confirmed"/very likely townie. IH is also associated with Romanus, and Vitr in my book. These associations and their suspicions are making me scrutinize them even more.

Again, I want to note how both Vitr and Skruffs said IH would be a good play and now are backing off and hunting other targets.

Also, Vitr, I don't like how your reason for suspecting Tony is because you can't get a read on him. I favor suspecting people I am getting a scummy vibe from, not a non-vibe...

Skruffs, I see you as semi-active lurking. You said you were gonna go re-read and concentrate on three or four people; do it .

Romanus, I was/am trying to provide the reasons I see IH as being the best target for today. Maybe they are flawed, but those are honestly my reasons for IH being the play. I agree bad cases are scummy, but I think it is a good case and I think IH is a good play for today.

mod

a prod on STD would be appreciated...

[Guardian]

Fos Guardian

Saying someone is town because they have presented a case Against someone that you find usspicious is scummy, or stupid, or both. I'm town, so this gives you a good reason to hide behind elias if i do get lynched. If you weren't BM's replacement, i'd be more suspicious of you.

Sorry for being dense, but what exactly are you talking about here? I am finding Elias town like because... what? I find him town like because he is suspicious of many, and has outlined good reasons for his suspicions - many are reasons that I agree with, though not all.

[Guardian]

Kay, now I'm convinced.

You have not drawn the line between me making a case with some flaws and that meaning that I am scum. Period. I believe I

have

made a good case against IH, one that IH responded to but imo failed to poke serious holes in, and I have good reason to stand behind my vote.

You look scummier by the second for pushing this case on me for (from what I can see at least) no good reason.

[Guardian]

I disagree that this is a scummy idea. And you have Vitr as one of your most confirmed town players - how is his idea of a roadmap of who to lynch any different than my group of four idea?

Following both ideas would result in the same end - a predetermined group of X number of players Y lynches away from now. I do not think that speaking of such ideas is scummy in and of itself, and I think you are using a double standard by pushing heavily for my lynch while not even bringing up that Vitr's idea is scummy and calling him one of the least scummy players. I am tempted to vote you for the hypocrisy, but I still feel stronger about IH.

[Guardian]

I disagree that this is a scummy idea. And you have Vitr as one of your most confirmed town players -

how is his idea of a roadmap of who to lynch any different than my group of four idea?

Following both ideas would result in the same end - a predetermined group of X number of players Y lynches away from now. I do not think that speaking of such ideas is scummy in and of itself, and I think you are using a double standard by pushing heavily for my lynch while not even bringing up that Vitr's idea is scummy and calling him one of the least scummy players. I am tempted to vote you for the hypocrisy, but I still feel stronger about IH.

Please actually answer the question, rather than say that you have already outlined why you think Vitr is town. You have done so, but you have

not

responded to this point.

[Guardian]

Well, that's interesting. I will be at the beach July 1 - July 8 with uncertain access. I'll try to contribute meaningfully before then and leave my vote in a place a feel good about. I would appreciate not being replaced, even if I do end up not having access.

Romanus: I found three other people the most town, and I wanted to see if they felt the same way. Vitr found people scummy, and wants to see if other people feel the same way. With ten people left, 'forming a club' of four people not to lynch is the same thing as lining up six people to lynch. I fail to see the significant difference. I by no means wanted to end discussion, and I said in my proposal that if our feelings changed the idea would obviously break. I was just trying to look at this game from a different perspective, and still think it has merit, as nightless does not punish the town for identifying the least scummy players. What I will say is that my idea was flawed in that it had you in the four. Right now, you are among the four most suspicious in my opinion, not among the four least.


Both ideas are ways of trying to not lynch town and trying to lynch scum. I don't see why you feel it is appropriate to categorize me as extremely scummy for my behavior and Vitr as almost definite town for his.

[Guardian]

Guardian

I am pretty sure is pro-town, and I like the majority of his posts. Let me just get this straight though - the alliance idea sucked. Badly. Mainly because I wouldn't trust anyone with that at this time in the game, and because if one of the scum were on the list, we would be toast.

I am not going to be one of those idiots who, when everyone disagrees with him, automatically assumes everyone else is wrong. That being said, while the alliance idea may have sucked, I still do not understand why,

not concerning the specific players involved

buy why,

in theory

, it is a bad idea. Vitr and Romanus have both said it is way different than outlining four or five people you want lynched, but I don't see how that is true. Both end in the same result, just the way you think about going about them is different.

Also, I will reiterate, if three out of four (two out of three from my perspective, which makes it even more appealing) of the other players in the "alliance" are pro-town, then it will very likely lead to a town win. Only if half of the players in the alliance are scum will the idea automatically result in a scum victory.


I agree with Aimee about Elias. I can see her points on Mustafa STD and Tony, though I have no certain feeling about any of their alignments.

I am most interested in the analysis she will post tomorrow, as the four players she did not talk about are the four I find most suspicious at the moment.

[Guardian]

Aimee, your explanation is not

that

different from other player's, but yours is much more articulate/you explain clearly that not having any confirmed players, not wanting to have townies on the outside, and not trusting anyone is why it is not a good idea.

I think I see now why it is a bad idea. I can also see why people might interpret it as scummy; I was just trying to think of another way for us to win, sorry guys.

I await Aimee's continued analysis and Tony's results upon re-read.

One question for Aimee: You find Mustafa more scummy than all of the last four you are going to analyze? If you could explain why during/after your analysis I would appreciate it...

[Guardian]

I am posting the following in V/LA and in my sig and in all my games: Hey guys, I will be at the beach with

LA: July 1 - July 8

, I may post some more tonight or tomorrow morning, but after that for a week I will have limited access or no access. There may be places to access the internet at the beach, and I will try to get on once or twice, especially in the games with strict deadlines, but the main purpose of vacation is to recreate and be more detached etc., so if I don't get a chance to post that is why. I ask that I please not be replaced anywhere, I will be super active again when I get back, I will just be gone for this time period. Any games with night/pm-choices, I have pre-sent them in where applicable. See you in a week!

[Guardian]

Hey guys - deadline will come and go while I am at the beach.

I want to see lynched:
IH, Skruffs, Romanus?, Vitr?

I

do not

want to see lynched:
Aimee, Elias, me


Hopefully I come back pleased. IH and Skruffs are le scumz!

Romanus, I don't like your play style attitude, I find that detrimental to town, but I (without evidence to the contrary) accept that that is always your attitude. I still find you scummy though.

I am going to keep my vote on IH, as I am surest that he is scum. If I check mscum and there is a possibility to get someone I find scummy instead of him (rather than lynching someone I find pro-town or am unsure about), I may do so. Later!

[Guardian]

Tony - wtf "he will still be able to respond" You ptosed on July 1. I am at the beach enjoying my vacation, and had left before you posted that. I'm at a cybercafe with limited time so no detailed analysis of anything, but yeah I really don't like "oh, but he can defend himself, it's OK."

Skruffs - I stopped pushing the alliance thing a long time ago, and a page or so back Aimee explained clearly to me, for the first time in the thread, why it was a bad plan, and I stopped supporting it at all altogether. If you'd read (and I'd appreciate that) I've been pushing for people to explain why the alliance thing was a bad idea. Aimee finally did.

There are very few reasons to lynch Aimee. The wagon is bs.

IH and Skruffs, OTOH, are very likely scum. Please lynch them.

Later.

[Guardian]

If you find me scummy, that's fine, but you were like "oh, I'll attack him, but he can defend himself so it's ok." If you think I am the best place for your vote, put it there. If not, don't. But don't vote me and then go out of your way to excuse it like you did.

[Guardian]

skruffs:
1)I said at the time I thought y'all were bussing. My read on you is independent of you pushing for John's lynch.

2)I later retracted that. I remembered wrongly while hiking in Spain, and posted based on my incorrect remembrance. IH and Vitr were so linked in my mind (and still are linked, to an extent) that I remembered Vitr doing what IH had done.

There will be no quote, because I was flat out wrong about that.


There are definitely inconsistencies in my thinking, especially near where I replaced in, because my memory was spotty in places and I kept rethinking my views.

Deadline is today by the way, get off Aimee and lynch someone else, please, preferably IH. Aimee's logical thinking, lack of ties with anyone, and healthy suspicion of most players really makes me think she is town.

I am considering switching my vote to Romanus in hopes that he will be lynched instead of her; I am not nearly as sure on him -- or anyone -- as I am on IH being scum. If I do come back and switch my vote to Romanus, preventing this silly Aimee lynch is why.

[Guardian]

I'm

going out on a limb and say

going to keep stating that I think IH is scum.

vote: IH

.

We are not close to lylo, we have many "lives" I believe, as you liked to call them... We will be farther from lylo if we lynch IH.



Skruffs and Romanus seem to be pretty good second choices at the moment, Romanus I can definitely see as scum buddies with IH, he got off me to lynch imo an obvious townie (and he was also at two votes, his vote was the distinctive one), he also wants to lynch me, the only one saying IH is scum.

He has been pushing for me ever since he got an apparently good reason to - when I came up with the alliance idea. It wasn't a great idea. I am not scum. Me coming up with a bad idea does not imply that I am scum. Move on, please...

Still, earlier in the game I got a very town read from him. I think he could just be a misguided townie...

Skruffs... Eh, a lot of my suspicion from him is from just after he replaced in, and for nar's actions (which I regrettably cannot reread). Skruffs - why are you suspicious of mustafa?


Mustafa, I want to hear from you, Aimee was

very

suspicious of you, and I can understand why she was at least a little bit suspicious - who do you find scummy at the moment? Also, I can't help but notice that you were on the three person wagon with Romanus that helped lynch her. Why exactly did you find her scummy again?

Interesting that Vitr was on that wagon as well...


Any questions that people have on my case on IH, or if there is anything of IH's defense that anyone particularly wants me to respond to, let me know.

[Guardian]

Tomorrow is lylo if we mislynch btw.

The day after tomorrow is lylo if we mislynch, btw. If we lynch scum, it's two days longer, I think.

I hate the idea of picking people to lynch predetermined, and lynching them. This is a scum tactic btw, since it does indeed minimize the information we get, and just kinda randomly lynches to the end of the game.

What exactly are you referring to here? Vitr? Me? You? Hell if I know.

Going through a skimmy type reread, I don't see anything outstanding I really want to comment on.

And yet you found plenty to comment on....?

I don't know if I actually trust Aimee's read myself though. The only info I'd trust from her when she's dead is when she's scum, and then she's pretty telling i think.
As town.... eh, no offense, but I usually find her to be off.

Fair enough, if you are town. If you turn up scum, lights to mustafa.

I'm more interested in who jumped on her lynch and campaigned it kind of mindlessly. Like Romanus (Posts like 754).

Good point, I don't remember for sure if he outlined reasons for finding her scummy.

I think..... I wanna do a Romanus PBP. If it comes out like I think it will, then I'll probably be voting him.

I would like to see that very much, actually.

The remaining scum...... Romanus, Guardian..... and I dunno. Mebe STD.

I can see Romanus, STD def needs to post more, me obv not .

This was an extremely lame post after such a long leave of absence, but I'm trying guys X_X

Agreed? Roll over and die, scum .

[Guardian]

Mustafa, I want to hear from you, Aimee was very suspicious of you, and I can understand why she was at least a little bit suspicious - who do you find scummy at the moment? Also, I can't help but notice that you were on the three person wagon with Romanus that helped lynch her. Why exactly did you find her scummy again?

Like Tony, I would like to wait a bit for a response. And I am still waiting.

Skruffs, if you and others prefer/insist I lay out thoughts on him beforehand, I would, albeit somewhat reluctantly, do so.

[Guardian]

I believe Aimee was suspicious of quite a few people in the game, guardiadn. Why are you bringing up her suspicion of mustafa? Her being a townie does not mean she was accurate.
apparentlay there was action in my absence. READ UP tIME!

Aimee, your explanation is not

that

different from other player's, but yours is much more articulate/you explain clearly that not having any confirmed players, not wanting to have townies on the outside, and not trusting anyone is why it is not a good idea.

I think I see now why it is a bad idea. I can also see why people might interpret it as scummy; I was just trying to think of another way for us to win, sorry guys.

I await Aimee's continued analysis and Tony's results upon re-read.

One question for Aimee: You find Mustafa more scummy than all of the last four you are going to analyze? If you could explain why during/after your analysis I would appreciate it...

Sorry, I just saw this. But in my conclusion, I still think that Mustafa is one of the scummiest people.

I am bringing it up because Mustafa happened to be on her three person lynching wagon, and because in her words he was one of the scummiest people in the game.

Her being a townie does not mean her analysis was correct, but it does mean that she definitely was not scum trying to manipulate us -- her analysis

was

trying to find scum. I want mustafa to respond, and then I want to judge if her analysis had any merit. She shared many of the suspicions I have, so I wonder if she might also be onto something here.

[Guardian]

Skuffs: Pssst! Hint: He's scum!

xoxo
Guardian

[Guardian]

:goodvoting:


Anyone have any idea on STD's alignment? That role seriously must have a replacement restriction, lol.

Also, how do we plan to deal with mustafa's replacement as mustafa never really responded as we wanted him to do so much ? He's kind of gotten away with lurking all game. He did that in other games I played with him, but I haven't much of a read on him either and I was quite looking forward to his response. I think I want to pressure his replacement and get them to contribute, and also look back on what mustafa himself gave us...

[Guardian]

vote: Guardian

Because it's obvious.

No, it really isn't. It's

so

non-obvious, I'm not even scum. Seriously...

The case on me is as bad as the case on Aimee.


Find a better place for your vote please, or at least explain better why you think that I'm scum -- because I'm not.

[Guardian]

Elias is obvtown to me. He is the only one, besides Aimee, that I really feel/felt good about as being town.

I am surrounded by fools .

[Guardian]

Why would me being suspicious of StD who was suspicious of Elias make Elias scum? It would make Elias more townlike in my eyes.

I wanted discussion on StD and mustafa. I am not sure they should ever be lynched, necessarily.

Skruffs, why the survivor mentality? If IH is scum and you are town, you're not willing to contribute to the cause? Voting Elias for that reason alone is

very

scummy -- it's pretty much the definition of OMGUS.

I have had no 'victory' over IH this game. He is still alive. I believe him to be scum. Remedy his being aliveness, please.

[Guardian]

I have not avoided criticizing him in that time...

And I didn't put a vote on Romanus because I had to leave my relatives house and lost access,

and

because I didn't find him nearly as scummy as IH and two people voting IH would have been much better than me voting for Romanus,

and

because I had found Romanus to be town earlier in the game, it was only recently that I found him to be scummy, and I was unwilling to switch off of very likely scum to maybe scum.

PS: Skruffs, like vote hopping?

[Guardian]

Yeah it does "cut it" -- look at my post, I considered putting the vote down on Romanus, but my access was cut off like 5 minutes later. I was talking to you, Skruffs, of all people, about momir, at the time -- and suddenly had to go. .

Regardless, I did address Romanus. I should have voted, probably, although nothing would have changed -- I see this as the same kind of case people threw on Aimee for not hammering John. Nothing I could have done would have changed the result...

I am not sure of anyone being scum. I feel strongest about IH being scum. Obviously I would want him lynched first.... Skruffs, you're not an idiot, come on....

Let's please lynch IH, or Skruffs or Romanus, or at least someone we're not sure about. In my view, Elias me Aimee and Occult were all very likely town. Yet, this town has managed to lynch half of those people. Let's not make it three, please, thanks....

In case no one realizes, I am at lynch -2. I will have slightly limited access the next few days -- please let this day last the full length, if I am to be mislynched I at least want to leave a legacy behind, I feel my wagon already probably has at least one if not two scum on it, and if IH jumps on I will be pretty sure that at least half my wagon is scum...

I may post regularly in the next few days, maybe not at all, it just depends.

People, please address my case on IH. He has done nothing to change my view that he is scum, yet he is skating by all of you -- and some of you think he is most likely to be town. What gives?

Later...

[Guardian]

WERE. omg.. They were mislynched even though they WERE obv town. If I was in the game I'd have said this about Occult, and I DID say it about Aimee.

I'm obv town too. Stop voting me....



Appeal to emotion isn't a scum tell -- it is a conscious obvious decision I made, and am still making. Ignore it if you want, but rofl @ appealing to emotion being a scum tell. Mafiascum really needs to stop relying on conscious obvious actions as scum tells -- if they are conscious and obvious scumtells, why would scum

ever

do them?

Also, I note how Romanus completely disregarded my pointing out Skruffs vote hopping as OMGUS.




btw, I feel that I do have a good handle on what is going on, that being IH = scum and me + Elias = town. Other than that, I have stronger feelings about some people and lesser feelings about others, but IH has seemed scum to me all game, and on every re-read I've done... so I keep voting him.

[Guardian]

I'm a little... not in good condition to post right now, but what?

When did I

ever

agree that

anyone

was more likely than IH to be scum? I keept vote on him because I think he has best chance of being scum, what do you mean, seriously? I am suspicious because I don't move my vote off of my most likely scum candidate? What's a newt ?

[Guardian]

Hmm. Sometimes I think I hurt the town by posting, if I just lurked like mustafa and STD's role I wouldn't be at lynch -2.

If anyone quick hammers please please please consider lynching IH, Skruffs, and Romanus. And never never Elias.

[Guardian]

I'm a little... not in good condition to post right now, but what?

When did I

ever

agree that

anyone

was more likely than IH to be scum? I keept vote on him because I think he has best chance of being scum, what do you mean, seriously? I am suspicious because I don't move my vote off of my most likely scum candidate? What's a newt ?

Going after one person when there are other people - especially scum - being wagoned is bad. You are absolutely sure IH is scum, is what you use as your reasoning, but because of that you got to avoid the john wagon, you avoided helping aimee NOT get lynched, and even now, IH is not voting you, but you are voting him,a nd you are at 3 votes.

Skruffs, how would I know for sure, as you seem to imply, that someone being wagoned is scum? Where are you coming up with this bs that my going after my most likely scum candidate is scummy!? And what is a newt??

I feel very good about IH being scum... I really don't like how you say "even now, IH is not voting for you, but you are voting him". You are basically saying that I should only be voting IH if he votes me -- I should only vote IH in OMGUS? WTF? For your vote hopping, and remarkably poor logic, major

FOS: Skruffs

.

Also, moving my vote to save Aimee -- maybe I should have. But I did not know FOR CERTAIN Aimee was town. It was my read, yeah, but with the lynching wagon being THREE people large, I was more happy to sit on IH and hope people moved to him. I think I made that abundantly clear. The only person where I definitely would move my vote JUST to save would be me -- since I know I am town.

Romanus -- this "why isn't Guardian dead yet?" is just propoganda, and isn't helping us if you're town. You, or anyone else, have completely failed to address my case on IH today, and you in particular are making a mistake, I remember you linking me to Aimee and Elias, and saying we were the likely three scum pair. Guess what, Aimee was town. I'm town too.

I am getting more and more convinced that the current wagon on me is scum driven. I have put myself in the spotlight and been one of if not the most active people in the game since I replaced in, and you guys are deciding to lynch me for sticking with my guns and not even addressing my reasoning. I can definitely envision the scum trying to silence one of the most active players and let the game slip even more into lurkitude.

I really hope we can get a lynching wagon of five together today, regardless of who it is on -- a deadline wagons of three people is not the way we want to be conducting business.

I

really

would like to see IH lynched today. My initial read on the game that I made in my first post has not yet been proven to be wrong, and if IH is scum I would be even more convinced that I was right. If IH is scum, I would start to really feel good about Skruffs and to a lesser extent Vitr being scum -- at the end of

day one

they both said "oh yeah, IH is a good target", and since then, they have been voting anyone but IH. Vitr is looking more town to me, and Romanus more scummy.... But yeah, I want to see IH lynched, and I think I have good reasons for doing so.

If we could discuss those reasons, I would be most appreciative.

Also, I note how IH is lurking all day, even though he is contributing in other parts of the site.

[Guardian]

You realize I replaced for blagho right, Skruffs?? So if he is the third town in your eyes, that means I'm town?

A banner to hide behind?? -- let me make this clear, again:

I WANT IH LYNCHED

. This is not a banner, this is me trying to get discussion about IH, get votes on him, find his alignment, and then move on to my other candidates.

That being said, I am going to

unvote vote: Skruffs

. You saying blagho is a third obv town player, and then joining a -2 wagon of me, is not internally consistent thinking. Logic that is not internally consistent is a major scum tell for me -- it means you are making things up.

If

anyone

would address my case on IH and vote him, I would love to go back to voting him. But for right now, since people are largely ignoring my thoughts about IH, maybe they will be bothered to re-read the last two pages and see how ridiculous Skruffs is being.

[Guardian]

This is just great. I feel that my wagon is scum driven, and as time goes by and we don't get replacements, I am getting increasingly worried that I too am going to be lynched by a wagon of three. When I show up town, look very closely at Romanus and Skruffs -- scum have no incentive whatsoever to do anything but lynch townies -- I feel that I am being wagoned by scum in plain daylight.

Tony is the player on my wagon I am least suspicious of, and I would love to hear from Tony re: what he thinks about Skruffs and Romanus -- I am very frustrated at this point. The case on me is: "Oh, he had a bad idea. His case on IH had a few loopholes. Oh, and he didn't vote for Romanus when he was more sure that IH was scum. Clear scumtell!" Basically, I don't think the case on me even holds water, nevermind is convincing enough for me to by lynched.

Yet Tony, Romanus, and Skruffs are voting me, with comments such as "Why isn't Guardian dead yet?" and "Because it's obvious". This is complete bullshit. I have made good cases on IH and Skruffs, mustafa lurking all game is suspicious, and Romanus's play for the last few days is highly suspect. Yet, three players are voting me, not addressing my points at all, and seem perfectly contented to sit on my wagon and 3 person deadline lynch another townie, just like what happened to Aimee.

Why am I defending myself so much? Because I think I'm going to be lynched by a three person wagon at deadline. That would be horribly frustrating after how much I've put into this game. People just ignore me, and I feel that now the scum are wagoning me for little to no reason, just because the town isn't active enough to complain about it.

Well, let me tell you, for the next four days, I am going to complain like mad because this is ridiculous. None of you have made a case on me or addressed what I have been saying all game, and

wagoning me without explanation is absolutely ridiculous play

if you guys are town.

I would be willing to lynch IH today, obviously, but probably Skruffs or Romanus as well, as both of them have been so mindless in wagoning me that it is extremely scummy//terribly bad play for them to do so.


Skruffs, I would love to hear you explain how me being scum is consistent with Romanus being scum, and why he is mindlessly attacking me so much if we are scum buddies.

Skruffs, I'd also be

absolutely delighted to hear

how you are so sure blagho was another townie that suspicion was thrown onto to distract from John, and if he is another townie as you claim, then

how in hell am I scum, if I am replacing this obvious townie!?!?!?

[Guardian]

Point out the other cases so I can address them, then, please. From what I can tell, the

two

three things I pointed out are the main components of the case against me.

At least I got you to post -- if there are other aspects of the case which you'd like me to address, please reference them. No one (except Skruffs, a very little bit) has brought up the case against me all day.

[Guardian]

This is just great. I feel that my wagon is scum driven, and as time goes by and we don't get replacements, I am getting increasingly worried that I too am going to be lynched by a wagon of three.

Tony is the player on my wagon I am least suspicious of, and I would love to hear from Tony re: what he thinks about Skruffs and Romanus

Yet, three players are voting me, not addressing my points at all

I agree with you on some things. The constant need for replacements has been really lame. If you are town and lynched, it's not fair.

Yup.. What do you agree with me on? What do you disagree with me on. Why do

you

think I am scummy -- is there anything you would like me to address?

I was waiting to hear from Mustafa before making my next move, but he left town like a little bitch! This is very unfair for everyone.

Yup.. A lot of people are getting suspicious of mustafa. He is not anywhere near the top of my scumlist right now, but I am going to re-read with him in mind, any lynch is better than me .

I think you have gone overboard with your moves and seem like scum trying to lead the town.

Hm? Where? I am always agressive and point out my thoughts, why is this scummy? Is this why you are voting for me? Why is it obvious that I am scum -- because I'm not .

The way you organize people into groups and try to get them to work together is just goofy to me.

I already agreed that the group idea was a bad idea. If this is why you are finding me suspicious... that's lame, to be honest.

I'm not sure about anyone and I don't know why you are so confident with your decisions.

What decisions do you mean? I am not sure about anyone -- I feel quite good about IH being scum, and quite good about Elias being town -- but that's it. Why is feeling good about one's reasoning scummy?

Romanus seems to be the next best help for the town, but I think is less obvious about than you.

Next best help? What do you mean here? Do you think Romanus and I are both townlike? I am confused.

He also could be very skilled scum making crafty moves.

Yeah. I am quite conflicted on Romanus, tbh. I found him almost as townlike as Elias earlier, but his propaganda filled and mindless attack on me is making me question his motives.

Romanus

, lay out clearly and in one post your reasons for being suspicious of me, and point to who else you find suspicious. Your single mindedness and the case you claim that is there but that I haven't seen in weeks is absolutely infuriating.

[Guardian]

Yup.. A lot of people are getting suspicious of mustafa. He is not anywhere near the top of my scumlist right now, but I am going to re-read with him in mind, any lynch is better than me .

I'm only suspicious of Mustafa because Aimee was.

1) This isn't exactly great reasoning.
2) Why point this out?

Hm? Where? I am always agressive and point out my thoughts, why is this scummy? Is this why you are voting for me? Why is it obvious that I am scum -- because I'm not .

The obvious line was a way to get the ball rolling and a joke.

Huh? Joke? I'm confused.

I already agreed that the group idea was a bad idea. If this is why you are finding me suspicious... that's lame, to be honest.

Just because it was a bad idea doesn't mean you are off the hook. Also, I've noticed you take a lot of time to defend yourself and not a lot of time to find scum. Why do you worry so much about defending yourself?

You seem more worried about saving your own neck and not really helping the town.

Firstly, in this game, it is in every townie's interest not to die. More dead townies means less townies alive to lynch the three scum that remain.
Secondly, I don't think this is true. I've been trying very hard to get IH lynched all game. No one seems to be listening, but saying that all I am trying to do is stay alive is completely untrue. That is much more true of the lurkers, who aren't trying to find scum but are managing to deflect attention from themselves.

What decisions do you mean? I am not sure about anyone -- I feel quite good about IH being scum, and quite good about Elias being town -- but that's it. Why is feeling good about one's reasoning scummy?

Again, this goes back to putting players into groups. We know, you think it was a bad idea. We get it, but you still tried to do it.

I still think that my proposing it wasn't scummy. I didn't realize it was a bad idea. I proposed it. People said it was a bad idea. I retracted it. I implore you to reconsider this part of the case on me, as it has 0 merit.

Next best help? What do you mean here? Do you think Romanus and I are both townlike? I am confused.

You and Rom attempt to lead the town more than anyone esle.

Emphasis on attempt, apparently, since I have never been on a lynching wagon this game, if I recall correctly. I am "trying to lead" because no one is agreeing with me, and half the time it feels that no one is listening.


Please reconsider the case on me. I'm not scum, I feel I've been among the most townlike in this game, yet in three days I will be lynched due to deadline rules.


Look at how scummy Skruffs has been in the past few days. Look at how IH is posting all over the site yet completely ignoring this game. I cannot believe I am up for lynch today, this is ridiculous.

[Guardian]

You are an imbecile and have been as single minded this game as I have ever seen a player be. I am not scum, and you are on yet another mislynching wagon.

At least in my focus on IH, I have consistently provided a case against him. You on the other hand, have not brought up the case again when I have repeatedly asked you to, and I think you are scum along with Skruffs and IH. If you are town in this game, your play the past few days has been incredibly piss poor.

Sorry if this ticks you off.

[Guardian]

I did a reread on mustafa, and he has been altogether too lurky this game. He could very well be scum. I would much rather be lynching Skruffs, or IH, or Romanus, but no one seems interested. Hell, even

they

don't seem particularly interested or to care very much at all about the game.

Tony, I would not be surprised if your vote is the deciding vote today. If replacements come and post I would be very surprised. Similarly, IH coming would be a surprise to me. Elias is out of town, Vitr is already on mustafa, and I think Romanusscum and Skruffscum are not going to stop voting me; they want me silenced.

Choose wisely. I am

not

scum, ask me any questions you like and I'll answer them/explain my actions, but I am not scum and the scum are wagoning me with the town in lurkitude, and it is

absolutely ridiculous

.

unvote: Skruffs vote: Mustafa

[Guardian]

Mod, is it possible to extend the deadline until replacements are found?

Yeah, I think I sent a PM about this, but seriously, about half of the players in the game are participating, deadline in this scenario is not a good idea, methinks.

[Guardian]

Thok replaces STD (yay)

Deadline revoked for now and votecount coming up

everybody welcome thok to the game.

Yay indeed.

Yay at no more deadline!

unvote: mustafa... vote: IH

Welcome thok!

[Guardian]

If I had to pick three people to be the remaining scum right now, it would probably be mustafa, Romanus, TonyMoonshine.

I agree about Romanus, not sure on mustafa, not sure but leaning town on Tony. What are your reasons?

Pretty sure VitR and Skruffs are town. Not as sure about the rest of the people.

I can see Vitr as town. Have you read the last few pages? Hasn't Skruffs looked really scummy to you?

Also, what are your thoughts on IH?

I like how you think I'm town (xD)... but aside from that and being suspicious of Romanus, your suspicions are like 180 degrees away from mine... so it makes me wonder.

Mental note: Romanus's post 322 looks scummy as hell to me in context. At the time Romanus had been calling Occult likely protown for a few posts (he actually bounces back and forth from calling Occult scum and town all day; for example seems to thing Occult is likely scum in 225, while thinking Occult protown in his next post 262).

Hmm, I tried reading the few pages around this, but I am not seeing what you are seeing I guess. At this point in the game I found Romanus to be townlike, I guess I'll re-read at some time and see if I see what you're seeing.

Random useful thing to note: STD made a protown tell in 704 (by thinking there were 3 scum rather than 4, with john being one of the three; that implies that he didn't realize that there were more than three scum in this setup [including john]).

Of course, the above doesn't help me at all.

Heh, it helps you in that it makes you look townlike, and likely townies help everyone imo . However, isn't STD cleverer than that? Maybe he did miss it? I am leaning that he did actually, which would make you town. It is a very interesting thing to note, at the least. Again, I don't like STDs suspects; I found Elias quite pro-town, and I am not sure about mustafa...

I suspect that Guardian's plan of lynch to four included 3 town (Elias, Guardian, VitR) and one scum (Romanus) and that Romanus wasn't comfortable about winning that endgame as scum.

Hmm -- that makes some sense.

It's worth noticing that Romanus was the only person who went crazy over that plan.

Quite!! He has been pushing for my lynch since then with a single-mindedness that I really don't like. I found him to be so pro-town earlier, though, so I am somewhat conflicted, but really I find him almost as scummy as Skruffs atm.

I'm going to

vote Romanus

now. Notable is his post 322 mentioned above (which seems to be an attempt to stop the Occult wagon from moving back to john), and his reaction to Guardian's plan (it may not be a good idea, but is it actually scummy? Romanus's attempt to force a bandwagon out of this is notable).

Yeah, at this point I don't see the first point, but I really agree on the second. I don't understand why he would be so tunnel vision about it -- and his actions today do seem like overconfident scum who is happy to get a deadline lynch.

I'll add that Romanus spent a significant amount of time saying "We should figure out who tried to move the day 1 wagon from john to Occult" but never actually attempted to look for such a person.

I need to re-read to see if that is true, but if it is that is indeed suspicious.


In summary, I am happy that Thok has replaced in, and my read on him is already leaning town (helped a bit by the STD "town tell") but I am a bit wary as his suspicions vary so much from mine.

I would like Thok to explain why he finds mustafa and Tony scummy, and why he finds Skruffs and Vitr to be sure town (when I replaced in I felt very good about them both being scum, and I still feel good about Skruffs as being scum).

Lastly, Thok has said absolutely nothing about IH -- and IH is someone who I'd like to hear people's opinions about.


I hit preview and saw Romanus's post -- Romanus I have asked you many times today to restate why you think I am scummy. Restating your opinions would be helping me at this point, not shoving your opinions down my throat. Even directing me to a previous post where you outlined all your reasons would be helpful.

[Guardian]

If I had to pick three people to be the remaining scum right now, it would probably be mustafa, Romanus, TonyMoonshine.

I agree about Romanus, not sure on mustafa, not sure but leaning town on Tony. What are your reasons?

TonyMoonshine felt like he was trying to fake being town trying to avoid the Occult wagon. Frankly, Occult/john looked scummy as hell early day 1, and I don't consider being on their lynches a bad thing.

Interesting, I will keep this in mind as I re-read.

I remember something similar happening with mustafa.

On Occult too? OK, will keep this in mind.

I'm less sure of either of them then Romanus (and IMHO lynching Romanus and having him come up scum gets us a lot more likely protowns then lynching one of mustafa.

Such as?

Note also the word "had"-those aren't the only options I see for scum. I could see a scenario where RomanusScum was trying to bus youScum to gain credibility with town.

I know this to be untrue for a fact, and you don't, but that seems really far fetched to me... With this level of activity, I don't think Romanus would be as dumb as to bus me at this point in the game if we were scum partners. Also, if Romanus and I were scum, would you think that Tony was scum still? Or would mustafa be scum? Because Tony being scum would mean that two of the three people on meScum wagon would be scum... that doesn't make any sense to me. As it is, I think Skruffs and Romanus are scum trying to wagon me, but they're not bussing I assure you.

(In this case, neither Elias nor VitR would be scum; but three scum into a potential final four as scum would be stupid.

Huh?

This also requires Romanus to have been willing to bus you/Battle Mage for a long time. Since Battle Mage is actually fairly easy bus material, that's not unreasonable.)

That is quite a long busing history. I'm not sure where you are getting this from.

Pretty sure VitR and Skruffs are town. Not as sure about the rest of the people.

I can see Vitr as town. Have you read the last few pages? Hasn't Skruffs looked really scummy to you?

Also, what are your thoughts on IH?

John made a very oppurtunistic and weak FOS of NAR early on; it seems unlikely they are partners.

Is that all you are going on? Also, I wish you could have read the majority of NAR's posts. They were scummy as hell, even considering they were made by NAR.

As for Skruffs going after you, well I used to Skruffs showing what I consider poor logic (also see above). Skruffs will probably be annoyed with me mentioning this in in this game.

So you are willing to just let go his poor logic in this game?

Leaning towards IH as town; there's a lot of stuff he's done this game that I like.

Ok, that is incredibly vague and substanceless...

I like how you think I'm town (xD)... but aside from that and being suspicious of Romanus, your suspicions are like 180 degrees away from mine... so it makes me wonder.

Just because I think you have a decent chance at being town (but see above) doesn't mean I have to think you are right about who is scum. I think Skruffs is town also, but that doesn't mean I think he's definately right about you being scum.

Hm. I know what you mean -- but look at it from my perspective. As of right now you are saying that two of my three current and all three of my initial scum candidates are likely town -- I wonder about your intentions, as you are protecting almost all the people I find to be scummy.

(Guh, at this point my post will look awful; I'm trying to rewrite it after I realized the idea of Romanus bussing you was actually reasonable).

Like I said above, I don't see how it is actually reasonable. I don't like how you replace in, say how you don't like the wagon on me, and then try and say that the only candidate we agree on as being likely scum is actually scum bussing me. This feels really odd to me.

On the second part, I agree -- this post is awfully hard for me to understand, especially as compared to your other posts.

Mental note: Romanus's post 322 looks scummy as hell to me in context. At the time Romanus had been calling Occult likely protown for a few posts (he actually bounces back and forth from calling Occult scum and town all day; for example seems to thing Occult is likely scum in 225, while thinking Occult protown in his next post 262).

Hmm, I tried reading the few pages around this, but I am not seeing what you are seeing I guess. At this point in the game I found Romanus to be townlike, I guess I'll re-read at some time and see if I see what you're seeing.

I've made a massive summary of what I see with respect to Romanus and john in the above post. It's fairly damning, IMHO. I find that much more useful scum tell that Romanus's interaction with you.

Yeah, I am going to have to read these last few posts, and re-read the game (at least the first few pages) and consider everything.

Random useful thing to note: STD made a protown tell in 704 (by thinking there were 3 scum rather than 4, with john being one of the three; that implies that he didn't realize that there were more than three scum in this setup [including john]).

Of course, the above doesn't help me at all.

Heh, it helps you in that it makes you look townlike, and likely townies help everyone imo . However, isn't STD cleverer than that? Maybe he did miss it? I am leaning that he did actually, which would make you town. It is a very interesting thing to note, at the least. Again, I don't like STDs suspects; I found Elias quite pro-town, and I am not sure about mustafa...

Your response is reasonable. Like I said, the WIFOM of STD being STD and me being me makes this less help of a tell then it might be. It would be more useful if I was pointing this out about a newbie.

Agreed.

It's worth noticing that Romanus was the only person who went crazy over that plan.

Quite!! He has been pushing for my lynch since then with a single-mindedness that I really don't like. I found him to be so pro-town earlier, though, so I am somewhat conflicted, but really I find him almost as scummy as Skruffs atm.

You do realize this comes off as OMGUS, don't you?

No, quite honestly, I don't/didn't. Until just recently, he didn't provide me with a good summary of what his reasons are, and I thought that his attack was ill conceived and scummy.

You do realize that it isn't OMGUS, don't you?

I'm going to

vote Romanus

now. Notable is his post 322 mentioned above (which seems to be an attempt to stop the Occult wagon from moving back to john), and his reaction to Guardian's plan (it may not be a good idea, but is it actually scummy? Romanus's attempt to force a bandwagon out of this is notable).

Yeah, at this point I don't see the first point, but I really agree on the second. I don't understand why he would be so tunnel vision about it -- and his actions today do seem like overconfident scum who is happy to get a deadline lynch.

If anything the first point is much much stronger than the second point.

HMM. Then I really need to re-read.

I'll add that Romanus spent a significant amount of time saying "We should figure out who tried to move the day 1 wagon from john to Occult" but never actually attempted to look for such a person.

I need to re-read to see if that is true, but if it is that is indeed suspicious.

Feh, Romanus's post 579 is sort of a rebuttal to this point of mine. (Granted this was one of my weaker points.)

Wait, I thought you just said that the first point was a really good one -- now this is a rebuttal to that -- and it was a weaker point of yours??

In summary, I am happy that Thok has replaced in, and my read on him is already leaning town (helped a bit by the STD "town tell") but I am a bit wary as his suspicions vary so much from mine.

I would like Thok to explain why he finds mustafa and Tony scummy, and why he finds Skruffs and Vitr to be sure town (when I replaced in I felt very good about them both being scum, and I still feel good about Skruffs as being scum).

Lastly, Thok has said absolutely nothing about IH -- and IH is someone who I'd like to hear people's opinions about.

I've sort of said stuff about this above.

Sort of. Much of it was very hard to understand.

For the moment I feel lynching Romanus is a much much higher priority then anything else.

And I an IH lynch. I will re-read to see about your case on Romanus, and to see if Romanus actually has a legitimate case on me that he has just refused to reiterate.

[Guardian]

mod: I switched my vote back to IH.

Also, any replacement for mustafa?

mod- none yet

[Guardian]

Thok, you came in with all cylinders turning... care to respond to my post? I was kind of waiting on it before I did the re-read I promised. I want to know if I am understanding correctly what you said to look for.

IH, do that re-read yet?

[Guardian]

First about the three scummy things I believe Romanus had done.

I mentioned three things that I felt were scum tells on Romanus. One was a fairly consistent pattern of scummy behavior by Romanus in terms of the john/Occult wagons). The second thing I mentioned was his overreaction to your plan, and how I thought that suggested Romanus scum trying to avoid a plan to be put into an endgame which would feature Eliastown/VitRtown/Guardiantown/Romanusscum.) The third thing I mentioned was that he had claimed to be interested in "looking" for who had moved the wagon from john to Occult, but I didn't see a place where he appeared interested in doing so.

OK, will look for that. You said to look for a similar thing in mustafa -- unless I hear otherwise, I am going to assume that you mean pushing the Occult/John wagon.

Also, do you think Romanustown would give us good info, or only Romanusscum?

Also, re the final four thing, isn't it possible that Romanus-scum saw himself and another scum buddy in there, and saw how bad a plan it was, and thought everyone else would see how bad a plan it was and think I was scummy for it? I'm not sure if Romanusscum's actions regarding the final four plan necessarily give us a good idea of the alignment of the players in it, though possibly that has merit.

As for the extreme level of bussing involving two people going after you, I don't consider it that improbable. Much as I hate to mention the game that Metatron ruined, that was an example where both goons bussed their godfather on day 2, in a somewhat active game. (In fact the reason Metatron ruined the game was because he was being bussed by his two goons).

The point of busssing is to sacrifice one person to make the other person look better. As I mentioned, Romanus looks really bad to me right now, but if you were scum, a Guardian scum lynch would make him look better. Romanus has been going after your persona (whether as you or as Battle Mage, who your replaced) for a long time.

Eh, I guess I can see that, but it would put scum so behind and the game has been so inactive -- and until you showed up, people's suspicions of Romanus weren't really gaining much momentum votewise. It still seems a bit far fetched, at least to me.

As much as I disdain IH's lives thing, the scum lose two lives when a scum member dies, so I just don't see it, especially so extended.

To be fair, my including the idea of Romanus bussing you was an after thought, and only because you seem intent on going after your pet theories.

Pet theories? You mean who I find suspicious?

Your afterthought is definitely wrong (I'm town...) and seems to be a bit stretching.

In retrospect, it's also possible to me that your scumdar is misaligned and you are using bad judgement to see who should be considered scummy.

Certainly possible... but I feel very good about IH, and pretty good about Skruffs and Romanus.

(Frankly, I'm going to be a bit of a jerk here, but it seems to me that you don't have that much experience; looking at your wiki page it appears that none of your games have finished yet, and it seems as if you've not lived that long in some of the games that you have played in.)

My wiki page is very under construction. However, three games I participated in are finished.

Two of the games I was in that are finished I was scum, and lost. The other is not on my wiki page -- I replaced in at lylo and found both scum, amongst a very disagreeing town. So disagreeing, in fact, that I was mislynched . Two others I am dead in I was town, once mislynched day one, and once NK N1 because I was so obviously town -- quite a rarity for me .

If you look at my games, actually, this is one of the few that I have not drawn heavy fire early in the game... except wait, before you replaced in, I was about to be deadline lynched so never-mind that.

In short, I think AM Mafia, the town game that has ended that I was in, modded by Skruffs incidentally, demonstrates that I am actually quite good at finding scum... if I am not lynched . So while I don't take offense at your comment, I do find it slightly misguided.

In addition, Batle Mage actually comes off as protown in his posts (at least from my first glance at them).

For BM, that's a surprise, and a good one .

As I mentioned, I feel you are going after IH for a fairly weak case, that doesn't seem to fit the facts about how the game went.

Hmm. I disagree. Pretty strongly.

You seem to be suspicious of VitaminR for switching off from john to Occult, ignoring the fact that he was the person who caught john in the first place (a scum partner probably wouldn't choose to force the issue to force the issue immediately), and that VitaminR was willing to go after john again day 2, when a scum partner might have been willing to hope that town simply ignored john once Occult came up innocent.

Vitr I have backed off of; he is looking more townlike to me. Noticed how I included him in the final 4 plan.

One thing I ask you though, Thok -- why is it reasonable for, theoretically, Romanus to be bussing my role for the whole game, but not for Vitr to bus John?

As for NAR, I'm not sure you get how strange he can act. Go read Mutually Assured Destruction, where he basically singlehandedly made the game go crazy as a protown player. Basically, from what has been said NAR was extremely OMGUSy with respect to a player who attacked him; frankly that's well with the margin of error for NARtown. Frankly, in order to assess NAR, I'd rather try to figure out how people responded to his behavior and figure out his towniness or scuminess from that.

OK. This doesn't address Skruffs actions themselves, including his quite suspicious behavior today.

Thok, I am still leery of you for defending almost all of my main suspects, and finding scummy the players I think are in the middle.


I will do the re-read in the next few days, probably .

[Guardian]

Thanks Thok, I now know what you want me to be looking for in the re-read, in addition to the things I want to be looking for .

Before I delve into it (not tonight, but in the next few days), I want to address a few things.

1)I don't typically -- or ever before this IIRC -- find people suspicious because they disagree with my reads. However, the completeness in which you disagree with my read makes me wonder if you are trying to defend those that I find suspicous.

2)I still don't see how Vitr busing John is unreasonable while Romanus theoretically busing me is not. You addressed why you brought it up, but you did

not

address to my satisfaction why Vitr couldn't bus John if Romanus could bus me.

You say it is unclear if the town would have found john scummy if Vitr had not brought up the case on him.

I don't see how it is clear that I would have been the focus of suspicion earlier today had Romanus not brought up this case on me.

You are assuming that Romanus is scum and I am scum when you say that busing is reasonable -- I don't see how that scenario is substantially different from assuming Vitr is scum and (knowing, now) John is scum.

It really seems to me like you are setting a double standard.


This point is significant to me, because like you said scum want to lynch more townies than scum, and I don't want you to be setting up a me-lynch after a Romanus bus if he is scum and you're his buddy. That being said, I think you are being reasonable in saying that you are less certain of the whole busing thing .

3) I want to note that I agree with your read on AM mafia, and I concede that maybe why people aren't agreeing with me on IH and Skruffs here is because I am not addressing my thoughts about them well. I will focus on them in the re-read too (seems like I am focusing on everyone, lol) and try and explain my case better. Or if I don't see what I was on about, I'll acknowledge that.

4) Why does my interpretation seem convoluted//why are you so sure of Elias/me/Vitr if Romanus is lynched and is scum? I mean, I kind of see where you are coming from, because I find Elias VERY pro town, and Vitr pretty pro-town, but I am wondering hwy you are rejecting other possibilities. Do you think that your interpretation would be his only reason for attacking me?

5) Why doesn't knowing players to definitely be town help us? I can see how it helps us less, but for example knowing Aimee was not scum shows us that I wasn't scum defending a partner.

[Guardian]

Simenon said "no deadline (yet)" in his votecount, meaning that we are not under deadline. If that is not the case, I would really love for Simenon to say that we are under deadline...

[Guardian]

I want to see TonyMoonshine's follow up to his comments before I say more about him.

qft...

I will probably do my re-read tomorrow evening. Expect a really long post from me. Minor v/la Wednesday-Sunday, fyi.

Thok, while we wait -- care to address the few things I brought up in 890?

[Guardian]

I am going to start this re-read by mentioning my initial thoughts, as notes to you guys and, almost as importantly, to myself.

I am focusing on everyone, but specifically Romanus, mustafa, and Tony for their actions on the Occult-John wagons.

I am focusing on Skruffs and IH to see if I can make clearer my cases on them/to see if my cases on them still seem like they have merit.

I also want to see if I can get any idea of Thok's role based on his predecessors' actions.

I will make the re-read as open minded as possible, trying to disregard previously held views, while still looking for these specific things.

Pre-reread, IH, Romanus, Skruffs, and mustafa top my scumlist. The others I have made good explanations for, mustafa because everyone else is suspicious of him and you aren't

all

scum, Aimee was almost sure he was scum, and a lot of things with mustafa have been way too convenient.

Pre-reread, Elias is the only one I am getting a strong town vibe on.

I will be surprised if that changes.


I have decided to break this up into 5 posts covering 8-pages, to give myself breaks and to give you breaks in reading it.

Part One, Pages 1-8: Early Game and Post-Crash

At the beginning, my Summary of Scum (SoS) looks like:

IH
Romanus
Skruffs
Mustafa
Thok
VitaminR
Tony
Elias



---

Looks like John was trying to look townie by posting that. Amazing how he gave himself up at post 5.

---

In 29 either VitaminR is either both extremely perceptive and lucky, or starts busing very early. I

still

don't see how Thok isn't setting a double standard by saying Romanus's prolonged attack on me is busing but this attack by VitaminR couldn't have been. VitaminR finds scum

in his first serious post

. That's amazingly good pro-town play, or busing.

---

TonyMoonshine says it was a good read but notably doesn't vote in 30.

---

unvote, vote:John

Good call on that one Vit. I thought his statement looked Iffy, but I

wasn't exactly sure what it meant, but you're probably right.

Tony, why didn't you put your vote on him if you thought it sounded

good?

This still seems like the scummiest post in the game to me. IH gets all buddy buddy with VitR,

and

initiates a very easy bus.

---

In 32 Tony is notably very worried about a quick John wagon and warns against lynching John quickly.

---

Eh. I really don't like it, but IH's 34 could theoretically be seen as not scummy. I hate this thinking though, and I do find it scummy. He is trying to make us be too free in lynching, and possibly was thinking about setting up a good result of his plan with a John lynch.

---

37 – VitR was busing, or is an absolute genius reader.

---

In 38 Tony

still

doesn't vote John, and FoS's only.

---

39, to me, really looks like John could be responding badly to a bus.

---

Thok (I am just going to say Thok for his predecessors, to avoid confusion -- I will mention when Thok replaces in) wants to vote John in 45 but doesn't, and then cites insecurity about looking suspicious...

---

Yes, it's very suspicious. We don't even have a real page and everyone is already jumping on john.

Vote blahgo
Fos IH and VitaminR

Seems like an attempt to start a bandwagon to me.
Vit for starts it
IH agrees to keep it moving
blahgo doesn't even give an explanation, thats why he gets the vote.

We need more to go on before we lynch in a nightless

I'd imagine you should go read my former post. Bandwagons are not intrinsically bad, but uou need to watch who jumps on for no reason at all. Like Blahgo.

FoS:Blahgo

Speedlynches are just as scummy, because they indicate rushing the town through a lynch, and that you want the game to be over as soon as possible.

Speedlynches are almost always bad.

After preaching about how we have 5 lives to give and we can be free with our votes, IH lectures blagho (me) about how quicklynches are scummy. I find that hypocritical and scummy.

---

I definetly don't like blahgo's vote on John, it says "newb scum" to me. As I said before,

I don't really like lynching John at all

, at least not due to that comment. I'll

unvote, vote:blahgo

simply because it's a better vote than my random one.

Bolding mine. That is a very interesting post/attempt to start a counter wagon by mustafa.

---

In 59 mustafa jokes about being scum. Anyone familiar with the story behind EmpTyger's user title will know why I find this of note -- basically, scum are much more likely to joke about being scum than town are. That post and the previous one I quoted look bad for mustafa.

---

In 63, VitR attacks mustafa for defending John. This makes a lot of sense, in retrospect. I wonder if VitR knew too much though, his accuracy that defending John is scummy is stunning.

---

Mustafa's 67 just stinks -- he defends his defense of John, and says that his admitting to being scum can't be a scum tell.

---

IH's 69 is OMGUSy and diverts attention to a townie as opposed to a mafia member.

---

Gah. The crash really, really sucks. I vaguely remember NAR being scummy, but have nothing to re-read. After three pages, I find mustafa scum, Tony scum, and IH scum. pre-Thok looks bad too. VitR could also be scum. I think I was overdoing the case on Skruffs -- but I can't re-read NAR and I can't remember it that well, so I can't be sure.

Elias still looks town, and Romanus hasn't made that much of an impression yet.

Summary of Scum (SoS):
IH
Tony
mustafa
Thok
Vitr
Skruffs
Romanus
Elias

People in game felt pretty sure NAR would be lynched and was scummy -- I think it has helped that role a lot. I think Elias objectively summarizes it in 86. I don't know to what extent what happened during the crash should be ignored.

Occult in 95 too. Yes, now I remember why Skruffs was much higher on my SoS.

Aimees reads in 99 may or may not be off, but were a pretty objective description of what happened.

*Continues reading post crash*

---

mustafa notably defends NAR in 109 and says we should disregard NAR's actions.

---

Vitr says in 118 that he finds John and Occult scummy... and proceeds to vote for the townie. Eh, I think I am finding him pro-town up to this point, though.

---

I hated Skruff's 125. I don't think poemscum is a word, but it applies here. He is much too concerned with surviving.

---

I also hate how Skruffs in 132 not at all subtly insists NAR replaced out for the "good of the town".

---

In 139, Romanus starts his crusade on my role, that lasts all game. It rivals my single-mindedness on IH, except I don’t see good reasoning behind it.

---

In 150, Skruffs wants a challenge. Strikes me as a WIFOMy scum move.

---

I also refuse to read Skruffs’s pbpa again at this time. It is too stream of conscious for me to interpret again, right now.

I realize that since I don’t want the same thing to happen to this post, I am going to cut it into 8-page analysis segments, roughly. The distinction makes sense, pretty much -- this first part is the early game/post crash section.

---

Tony’s 155 is highly unremarkable, and feels like active lurking.

---

Also, can we lynch Occult?

But not John? I think VitaminR might have overreacted to John’s post 5. His scumhunting there was just…

too

good. Now, it seems like he might be trying to buy a day by lynching Occult first -- which eventually happens.

---

However, in 190 VitaminR very reasonably defends Elias and NAR. I am puzzled by VitaminR on this re-read. He seems like he either has too much information on the now-dead players one hand, and then is very reasonable with his reads in the next -- but just how reasonable

is

a defense of Skruffs at this point? He was replacing into possibly the scummiest role in the game.

---

At the end of this segment, my SoS is something like:

IH -- IH finds John suspicious, and even so goes on to derail the day one John wagon. IH in addition to being scummy per his defending of John, his reasoning about his “lives” logic and subsequent hypocrisy, his OMGUSing, and buddying up. Again, I think he made the most suspicious post of the game, and I think he needs lynching. I find both Tony and mustafa almost as scummy, though -- which is quite a change in what I thought pre re-read.
Tony -- he was even more obvious in trying to derail a John wagon.
Mustafa -- Similarly to the above, he blatantly defends John and tries to shift focus elsewhere.

I completely missed these blatant attempts to shift the wagon away from John previously (and the conclusion that these three are likely scum), but that’s why we do re-reads I guess. Thok helped me spot this in Tony, IH, and Mustafa. I wasn’t even really looking for it before. Thok, if these guys start turning up scum, good job, and I take back my suspicion of you.

VitaminR -- His read on John was just too good. And he ends up hammering Occult day one, despite this.
Skruffs -- Is just too eager and confident after replacing in. Also, though we cannot read them now, NAR’s actions were scummy as hell. Not considering lynching Skruffs today

at the moment (atm)

in the re-read, though.
Romanus -- I find him pro-town so far, but I now notice that that is largely because he has not taken a definitive stance on anything so far. I really wonder why he has pursued my role all game... He will probably look scummier as time goes on.
Thok -- not to lot to go on so far, pre-Thok looked scummy, but Thok helped me spot tells that I just completely missed before. Not considering lynching Thok today

atm

.
Elias -- He, like Aimee, has seemed obviously pro-town to me all game. Not considering lynching him for the next few days.


Just by going from this re-read, I still would be most happy lynching IH today, but Tony and Mustafa are also good possibilities. VitaminR is probably not the play today, I want to see more. I am not really considering anyone else at this point.

[Guardian]

Hm. Tony, respond to 914, would you? Also, you are already voting me, I believe. Also, nice OMGUS. And finally, also, read my post and see why you moved up the list instead of just OMGUSing for me moving up the list.

[Guardian]

Well, I'm really not liking Guardian's treatment of me, but whatever. HE puts me up at the top of the list, c an't really find a reason to keep me there... then just starts saying tht everything I said could also be said by scum.

Whoa. That isn't at all what I said. You moved down from second/third target to almost definitely not lynching today. How are you misreading me so much?

Well obviously anything anyone says could be said by scum.

WIFOM.

He doesn't like my introductory 'poemscum' post.

Yeah, I really didn't. The eagerness and desire not to die bugged me a lot.

He doesn't want to 'reread' my pbpa - I'll have to go back and see where he commented on it before, or else I am assuming he means that he read it at one point befoer he replaced in.

I am not sure which is true, in either case when I am up to it I owe you reading this, as I owe Romanus a re-read of his case on me.

Aimee thought NAR was scummy, and he latches on to that - but Aimee was also wrong about John (which is why she was lynched yesterday, if I remember correctly).

Woah. I mention one Aimee post, and I say her reads may be off. Where are you getting me "latching onto" her analysis?

He is holding me accountable for htings that don't exist anymore and that he CAN'T REMEMBER, except that he has a vague imprsesion it was scummy.

They aren't here for us to read, but they were there. NAR was over the top, even for NAR. I can't remember them clearly -- can you? Give me a break. I am wiling to trust Aimme and Elias's descriptions of that objectively happened as legitimate though -- and they alone are scummy, even for NAR.

Guardian, why not just say you think I'm scum , because you have a GUT FEELING.

It is part gut, but it is more than that.

It looks like you feel I am scum but you can't find any reason to back it up so you are just scrabbling at anything.

No... posts like the ones I pointed out just give me horrible vibes. I think you aren't obviously linked to John as mustafa, Tony, and IH are, but that doesn't preclude you being scum.

Doe that mean I'm town because you can't find anything? No, but it means you're just going to keep yourself blind to me being town until you acknowledge it.

This is just rhetoric.

Guardian puts all sorts of FOSses on VitR for 'being amazingly perspective or bussing' earlier on,then says, "Vitr says in 118 that he finds John and Occult scummy... and proceeds to vote for the townie. Eh, I think I am finding him pro-town up to this point, though. " Why can't I get teh benefit of the doubt like he does? Jeez.

Woah, woah WTF? Notice how at the end of my analysis I have you as less scummy thatn VitR and not deserving lynching today.

He says taht VitR is too good... this is my favorite part, when VitR 'reasonably defends' me (Guardian's target all game since he replaced) and Elias (Guardian's #1 townie all game besides the girl he let get lynched yesterday), Guardian questions why VitR would be defeneding ME... but not Elias. Whatever.

You and NAR were being really, really scummy right before he defended you. Damn right I'm going to question that. Elias has seemed consistently and legitimately town to me all game.

Objective my ass, Guardian wants me lynched and Elias not. Just say so.

If it was a choice between the two of you, then yeah, definitely. Look at my SoS. I think I make that very clear. Are you my #1 target at this point? No, not anymore. Would I choose you do hang over Elias? Most likely.

When the same thing happens to the both of us, from the same person, it's scummy in regards to me and not Elias.

Yeah -- you -- and NAR -- were acting scummy. Elias wasn't. It seems odd for VitR to have defended you.

Baised.

Bullshit.

And up to this point, not with a reason behind it for anything other than "Yeah I don't like this, I don't like this, I hate this, she thought this" etc. I'm 'too eager and confident' replacing in.

Woah. There is a heck of a lot more to my case on you than "feelings". You are oversimplifying.

Yeah, that's a huge scum tell, replacing NAR in a nightless game where people are getting ready to vote him and his buddies would have NO reason to defend him. .

To me, it IS a tell to replace into that situation and ask for a challenge. Asking for a challenger there does nothing to help you -- except possibly "make you look town" for asking for a challenge.

Definite scum tell if you enjoy that prospect. Yeah.

This defense is complete WIFOM.

Finally, at least, Guardian has picked up on what I said at the end fo day one - that there were attempts by scum to redirect the wagon onto Occult. Yay.

Haven't gotten there yet in my re-read, but it is there.

But will he give me cerdit for that? No, he'll probably say I'm scum distancing myself from the other scum. Let's read on and find out.

I am going to try to be objective as possible, but you are making that very difficult.

Guardian, I'm bitching about your attitude me, specifically, and not the rest of hte players, because I think you may have been pretty perceptive towards them.

Great, me too.

But I don't understand why you give Elias the benefit of the doubt in every situation,a nd do the opposite for me.

Elias didn't act scummy, you and your predecessor did. This is just BS.

IS it because Elias, like you, thinks I should be lynched for NAR's lost conversations?

I think his read was reasonable there. My read on your alignment is/will be much more panoptic than that.



This whole post is BS. I treated you just as objectively as anyone else in the re-read, and you moved down from "lynch today if IH not lynched" to "probably not lynchable today". How in hell can you say that that is not me being objective and letting go of any preconceived notions?

Seriously, I think you are overreacting here. Your pointing out all these instances where I was supposedly biased when I

was obviously trying to the best of my ability -- and quite frankly imo succeeding to be unbiased

makes me wonder if you are paranoid scum.

[Guardian]

Part Two, Pages 9-16: The Rest of Day One/Occult Lynch

At the beginning, my Summary of Scum (SoS) looks like:
IH
Tony
mustafa
VitaminR
Skruffs
Romanus
Thok
Elias

---

202 by mustafa has some very interesting connections in it, and is particularly worth looking back to if Romanus or mustafa turn up scum.

---

In 203, IH isn't sure where his vote is, and votes Occult. He thinks it was on NAR, but now with the crash material is gone, he finds Skruffs town. Posts like this is where my linkage came from on my first re-read, and if IH turns up scum then I really think Skruffs and/or VitR are worth looking at again.

---

Personally I don't like your eagerness to wagon on some people but your eagerness to wagon on others. I think if you turn up scum we'll have a aneat little trail back to your buddies. That's why I'm voting you.

Is that supposed to be lack of eagerness to vote others? Even if so, Occult finds some people town, some people scum -- that is a reason to vote him, Skruffs?

---

209 BM drops a BM town tell, lol. Between that and blagho randomly 3-wagoning scum... Thanks, predecessors .

---


John FOS's mustafa and votes IH in 210. I can

definitely

see this as scum reacting badly to bus. I don't understand why Thok (I think?) said this made him think IH was town. And if so, why doesn't it make you think mustafa is town?

---

FoS: Mustafa

because he gave better reasons to vote for other people, yet voted occult anyway. you say that Aimee's and Tony's behavior are scummy... yet you dont do anything about it. you seem hellbent on lynching occult, and weather or not your right, focusing on one person when more evidence surrounds you is simply not helping.

I voted Occult because

I thought he was scummy also, and that

there was the best chance of an Occult lynch today

. I was just laying my thoughts out there for Aimee and Tony at that point, and letting it be known that I was suspicious of them. Also, I'm not focusing on one person, I just only have one vote. I have to pick one person sometime, and it's not like my vote is set in stone.

How am I hellbent on lynching occult?

Bolding mine. Woah. That post seems really scummy to me.

---

IH in 219 is so scummy. He finds Occult scummy for being suspicious of different people, closeness with John (but not John for closeness with Occult?), and for disregarding NAR's stuff -- when IH, just a few posts back, basically disregarded NAR's stuff.

---

VitR in 233 pushes an Occult lynch even after finding John in post 5.

---

244 and 247 are good examples of why I find Elias to be town -- he carefully considers things, and does not jump on easy wagons.

---

In 253, IH attacks Tony for defending Occult. I really don't like Tony's actions early day one, but this seems sincere to me -- Tony finds the Occult wagon to be moving too quickly(, and maybe scumdriven?) and is trying to stop it. IH finds him scummy for this now,

and

continues to even when Occult turns up town, I think.

---

In 255 mustafa tries to meta VitR scum. Worth looking at the thread he linked to, maybe.

---

258 again seems honest to me by Tony -- he thinks Occult's wagon is scum driven. This doesn't excuse or erase his actions re: John, but I don't find him scummy

for this

.

---

In 262 Romanus thinks Occult is town, and is suspicious of my role. I am not quite sure how to read this post. He "wants to make sure his stances are clear" when it looks like the Occult (mis)lynch is going to occur. And he continues to want to attack my role.

---

268 by VitR is scummy, back then he was almost sure mustafa was town, and admits to being very behind the Occult wagon, despite his great "read" on John.

---

I don't even know what Skruffs is talking about in 273. "I personally am very pro town." ???

He later says he was sleepy or whatnot, but go to bed when sleepy .

---

275 by Romanus I can understand, but like BM I really don't like the part where he finds my role suspicious, as he seems to have consistently done so for 30 pages, without much regard to new events except to try and twist them to make me look scummy.

If Skruffs feels like I am treating

him

unfairly, just look at how Romanus is pursuing me/my role. It is ridiculous.

---

Tony defends Occult in a similar way to how he defended John in 296. This may be significant -- maybe Tony was just against

any

"quick" day one lynch.

He later says that he means "if we had" just quicklynched Occult. So yeah, this is sadly looking consistent with his defense of John .

---

301 by Elias is so true. He is/was being town, and people kind of ignored his contributions.

---

But then Skruffs responds in 303! And quite reasonably.

---

313 and onward Skruffs consistently pushes for John over Occult.

Like, that is great and all, but he mentions how Occult defended John and I am not at all convinced that if John had been lynched day one that Occult would not have been lynched day two. And Occult had seemed kind of scummy.... Skruffs's begging for credit for this isn't helping me want to give him it, either.

---

In 318 Occult sums up mustafa's posts -- mustafa

has

kind of been lurking all game.

---

321 looks to me like VitR is following Skruffs back onto John so easily. It smells like busing.

This is partly where I got the IH-Skruffs-Vitr-John read I got when I originally replaced in. I

still

don't think that that scum group is out of the question, and I note that from the lynches we've made its existence has not been disproved.

---

324 is pretty lame by Tony, whether he is town or scum. I can't get a read from the post, though.

---

Tony, that's erroneous. Nobody's been lynched yet, and taking that reasoning to the next level, it could be said that you are not voting Occult because you want a townie lynched d1 instead.

That is interesting, as Skruffs is defending Occult by going for John. Why be suspicious of Tony for this, instead of trying to get him to lynch John?

---

IH is quick to attack Tony for it too, in 326.

---

330 really makes me wonder how much we can trust John's FOS's/votes as town people. I think he is just as likely to be reacting to a bus as trying to cast suspicion on townies.

---

340 by VitaminR I really don't like. He says he has been consistently suspicious of John all day -- and while he has, he was ready for Occult to by lynched until Skruffs nudged him back onto John.

---

The only person that I really wish to lynch is Battle Mage (who is now replacing). The reason for wanting his lynch is that I believe he is scum.

That is really weak Romanus. Re-read, and reconsider. You're wrong here, and you've

been

wrong all game.

---

Tony notably puts a vote on John in 360. That vote helps in my eyes, as does his consistency in not wanting things to move too fast. I think his earlier defense was just because he didn't want a quick lynch.

---

I love how IH calls Tony opportunistic scum in 361 for hopping onto someone who turns out to be scum.

---

pre-Thok in 377 puts a casual lynch -1 vote on Occult.

---

In 384, VitR hammers and ends the day with a townie lynch, even after finding John in post 5 and trying to start a late wagon on him.

---

At the end of this segment, my SoS is something like:

IH - Ok, in my re-read of day one, hopefully I have made it clear why I think he is so likely to be scum and is the proper play for today. He pushed the Occult wagon strongly over the John wagon, and stayed on it all day.
mustafa - His defense of John wasn't ever mitigated by him looking like a townie, and he also stayed on the Occult wagon all day.
VitR - I hate how he found John and then ended up hammering as he thought both were equally good lynches. Not liking it.

Skruffs - I want one of the three above gone today, I think, but especially if IH/VitR turns up scum, Skruffs is a good candidate.
Tony - He defended John early on, but I think that is just because he didn't want a quick lynch. His actions

are

there, but his consistency about an Occult lynch and his late vote on John made me think that he wasn't specifically defending John and would have defended the first thing that looked anything like quicklynch.
Romanus - He looked to me just like an unconvinced (albeit wrong about BM/me) townie. Not much to get a read off of though, somewhat lurkish.
Thok - I have no great read on him, but I pretty much am against lynching him today.
Elias - Almost surely town. Should not be considered for lynch unless we are desperate.


Ok, I really want IH lynched. I think I have made it much clearer

why

I think he is scum, and should be lynched. He made many scummy and hypocritical statements day one, and he not only contributed but pretty much was the main force in deflecting the John lynch supporters onto Occult's wagon.

If IH can't go today (and I really, really think he should) then I am OK with a mustafa lynch -- his actions re:John were much like IH's, and to boot he was a follower.

I don't particularly want to see VitR or Skruffs lynched today (I feel IH and mustafa are both much better targets, and we definitely have the support to get mustafa, I think) and the players below those four should live to see another day, at this point in the re-read, in my eyes.

Hopefully I will be able to get done with more of this before I leave Thurs-Sunday, but if not I still would support an IH or mustafa lynch -- I don't think their actions later in the game will make them look any less scummy.

confirm vote: IH

. Again, I would be willing to switch to mustafa if no support is to be had for an IH-lynch, but an IH lynch looks really good to me.

[Guardian]

V/LA posting in all threads: Hey, I might post here once or twice more before going -- but FYI tomorrow I am leaving on a V/LA Thursday-Sunday. Expect me to check this and all threads Sunday evening. Hope you manage without me .

I would love to do 8 more pages tonight or tomorrow morning. If not, I still feel good about both IH and mustafa, and I feel that by analyzing all of day one and how people look considering their day one play only I have given you a lot to discuss.

[Guardian]

Guardian, as it stands, you are going to be lynched before IH. IF you really think IH Should be lynched, try putting him at a majority.

Huh? I don't follow...?

IH, if you don't want to be lynched, explain why mufasa or tony is better.

^Yeah.

[Guardian]

I'm back, no one has really commented on my analysis besides Elias and he has left for a week...

Romanus, my analysis is only complete through 16 pages. And I don't find you scummy at that point. That is my unbiased and fair position.

I said I was sure you would start looking scummier because right now I think you look scummy, but I haven't had a chance to objectively re-read the whole game yet. Maybe when I re-read I will think my suspicions on you are OMGUS and that I shouldn't be suspicious of you, but I haven't read and determined that yet.



I feel like you are overreacting much in the same way Skruffs did -- you complained that I was treating you unfairly when I obviously wasn't. It feels like paranoid scum.


I'd love to hear from Tony, IH, and Vitr at this point. Mustafa too, obviously, but that seems unlikely. IH is participating elsewhere but not here... He quite possibly is intentionally lurking at this point.

Elias I expect to contribute when he gets back, Skruffs and Romanus are here but seem to also be waiting, and Thok has good reason to be waiting for Tony -- I am in no small part waiting for Tony's input before I continue with parts 3,4, and 5 of the pbpas.

Again, mental note: Before considering lynching either, I need to carefully look over Romanus's outline of his attacks on me and Skruffs's pbpa. At this point though, I don't feel doing either before I finish my pbpas is imperative, and I would very much like to hear from... about half of the other players.

If anyone else is waiting on someone and that is why they aren't posting, even if I covered it above, it would be great if you could say on who and for what, so that it is clear.

[Guardian]

Mastermind of Sin replaces mustafa15

Sweet. MoS, explain your predecessor's actions. I hope this isn't the 2nd game with you where you're scum .

[Guardian]

Thok, do you have anything to say? I'd love for anyone to comment on my analysis of the first few days, and the conclusion that IH is indeed a great lynch (though MoS is good too).

[Guardian]

Here. Still think we should lynch MoStafa or Tony.

Have you read my analysis of day one? What do you think about my conclusions on IH? Is there a particular reason that you do not support his lynch?

I would love to hear from... everyone. This game is really stagnating -- don't let the scum lurk us into another deadline .

[Guardian]

Here. Still think we should lynch MoStafa or Tony.

Have you read my analysis of day one? What do you think about my conclusions on IH? Is there a particular reason that you do not support his lynch?

I would love to hear from... everyone. This game is really stagnating -- don't let the scum lurk us into another deadline .

I've read it and responded to it (post 926). I largely agree with your conclusions about IH, but I'd put him below mustafa and Tony at this point (although I could be persuaded to go for IH tomorrow).

That was the first half of day one -- you did respond to it indeed. Nothing in the second half of my analysis changed your opinions?

[Guardian]

Hm. OK, that is reasonable. It was like pulling teeth to get that from you though .

I think I would support a MoStafa lynch at this point, even though I *still* prefer an IH lynch. Not going to change my vote quite yet, as I want to give MoS a chance to contribute. He did replace into a very scummy role though .


and yeah, SL thanks for back-up moding, you found some good replacements and were good and stuff.

[Guardian]

Posting in all threads: V/LA until Monday. Good luck without me.
---
@Thok, you have some good points. I will consider them more carefully upon return. re: Tony, I agree his earlier play was not as scummy as I'd thought, and later on I remember him getting more suspicious.

I also agree that it would be unlikely for IH and Tony to be scum together -- I, however, find this to be a point for Tony rather than for IH.

re: IH, I do think he's been intentionally lurking... If you could be more specific about what "wrong" arguments I made so I could address them upon return, that would be great.

I doubt that all the people I see as pushing the lynch are scum. I feel it is extremely likely that some of them are scum.

I feel like this mustafa lynch has no evidence behind it.

??? I strongly disagree.

Also, I think we should let MoS actually read before we attempt to lynch him.

I agree there.

I still believe that the most likely scum is Romanus. I dont think I can see myself lynching anyone else today.

Now maybe you know how I've felt about IH? I am just not seeing Romanus as scum right now -- I had suspected him, but re-reading day one I am beginning to think my vision was clouded by OMGUS . Romanus is guilty of having bad reads, yeah, but I'm not getting scum atm.

I ahve posted evidence on Romanus, but there doesnt seem to be any evidence for a Mustafa or Tony lynch.

I feel that Mustafa is a much better lynch than a Romanus lynch at this point. Tony I am less interested in atm.

Ok. Upon rereading: I still hold some of my original suspicions for blahgos wierd early game behavior over unto Guardian.

I found him scummy when initially reading, but that was mostly because of his "pseudo-random" 3-wagon. When it turned out John was scum, I thought that looked much better, no? Other than that what are you referring to?

I also see the case for mustafa now, though its mainly gut.

??? I again strongly disagree.

Tony, I'm really unsure of. I'm still really suspicious of Romanus for previously stated reasons, and I'm suspicious of Skruffs a little bit, mainly on gut though. Im not too suspicious of Vit, and I cant keep track of Thok and his predecessors at all. IH im not that suspicious of either, but i need to reread on him specifically.

I think you need a more concentrated re-read .

i'm definitely not scum guys. Mustafa is a newb.

Read the thread, and convince me. Right now I am very unconvinced, at least of the former.

I need to post. Hopefully by late Wed night.

That would be great.

I hope you guys get better content in while I'm gone than last time I was on V/LA. Later.

[Guardian]

The two summaries I just asked VitaminR about are a great start -- look at where I reference mustafa, and my comments. That is a good part of my case against him. Also, I definitely hold against him his pursuit of Aimee.

[Guardian]

Hi. I'm still on V/LA. Welcome Oman. I am beginning to think Romanus's role is a surprise lyncher with me as the target .

I really want to hear from MoS (and IH). He seems like the play today, and while I don't intend to hammer until I get back from vacation on Monday and can read more carefully, I would ponder it seriously then. I don't see a play that I would be happier with other than IH at this point. gtg for now, friend needs the laptop soon.

[Guardian]

Hi again. I re-read the past few pages, and I'm just not seeing how I will not want to lynch MoStafa today. I feel it is very likely that he is scum.

I will wait until Monday to hear what IH has to say, and to see if MoS has anything to say, but since people aren't interested in IH, I am pretty sure I will be voting MoS.

[Guardian]

MoS, I didn't realize that, I always welcome players giving their analysis before they leave -- I implored YB & Aimee to do so.

I thought you just weren't going to get around to it, and like I said I am pretty much convinced your role is scum based off of mustafa's actions. If you truly are going to give us your opinions on the game, I am willing to wait for them.

IH will probably misconstrue this as me sitting on his wagon without taking a stand, but whatever.



IH has some good points, but some of his attacks on me are just deliberately ignoring some of my contributions selecting things that make me look scummy. hopefully I'll get to respond to them all when I get back.

three great examples of how IH is purposefully putting my actions in a negative light: 1) I am now very much in favor of a MoS lynch, something I hadn't considered as a good idea until today -- this has nothing to do with my "pet suspicions".

2) I freaking admitted that Romanus's role didn't look scummy day one, and I was considering that maybe my vision was clouded by OMGUS -- that role constantly attacking me (and Oman seems to not want to let up) is really annoying and wrong, but maybe the role hasn't been scummy. I am going to finish the re-read and determine this.

3) On YB being lynched, I preferred lynching you IH so I stayed there -- it isn't like I changed anything by doing so, and I made it clear John was my #2 suspect. On the Aimee lynch, all I could have done is put Romanus at a tie, and I didn't feel good enough about Aimee being town//Romanus being scum to move off of the 1 vote IH wagon onto the 2 vote Romanus wagon. I initially figured why should I change, people should be moving to IH not me moving to Romanus -- and then I had to leave my relatives' house before I had a chance to decide definitively. Even so, I am not disappointed with the decision.


Also IH, you weren't voting... so why unvote?

Tony, I'd love to hear something real from you, especially if you intend to keep your vote on me for reasons you haven't clarified. Deadline is like a week away.

[Guardian]

As far as I am concerned, IH is ignoring my arguments to death and is basically screaming "I am scum and trying to annoy you and make you look like scum. ha. ha. ha."

IH has some good points, but some of his attacks on me are just deliberately ignoring some of my contributions selecting things that make me look scummy. hopefully I'll get to respond to them all when I get back.

three great examples of how IH is purposefully putting my actions in a negative light: 1) I am now very much in favor of a MoS lynch, something I hadn't considered as a good idea until today -- this has nothing to do with my "pet suspicions".

First of all, that was clearly not a pat on the back post. It was a post to find scum. If there was something that I found would make them less scum then I would put it up. If there was something I thought of importance, I put it in. I'm sorry you think I'm 'only putting in the negative' but it was a reread to find scum.

There is a huge difference between finding scummy things, and completely ignoring where I change or retract arguments. You are doing the latter, and it is annoying, and scummy as hell.

Second, Yes, just like the other days you stayed on me while saying you were pro other lynches.

MoS, I didn't realize that, I always welcome players giving their analysis before they leave -- I implored YB & Aimee to do so.

I thought you just weren't going to get around to it, and like I said I am pretty much convinced your role is scum based off of mustafa's actions. If you truly are going to give us your opinions on the game, I am willing to wait for them.

IH will probably misconstrue this as me sitting on his wagon without taking a stand, but whatever.

Holy cow it didn't take you long to do exactly what I said you would. IH, it almost seems like

you

want

me

to hammer MoS -- I have been supporting lynching him for pages now, but I don't want to lynch him without him having a chance to respond. And somehow, some way, you are finding me scummy for this. Seriously, you are scum.

2) I freaking admitted that Romanus's role didn't look scummy day one, and I was considering that maybe my vision was clouded by OMGUS -- that role constantly attacking me (and Oman seems to not want to let up) is really annoying and wrong, but maybe the role hasn't been scummy. I am going to finish the re-read and determine this.

Yes, but I still hear how you want him lynched. Which is why I want a case.

What on earth!? I want you lynched. If not you, MoS is seeming like an OK second option. How in hell can you possibly read me as currently wanting Romanus lynched. If I have ever used the term correctly, you

are

straw man-ing me there.

On YB being lynched, I preferred lynching you IH so I stayed there -- it isn't like I changed anything by doing so, and I made it clear John was my #2 suspect. On the Aimee lynch, all I could have done is put Romanus at a tie, and I didn't feel good enough about Aimee being town//Romanus being scum to move off of the 1 vote IH wagon onto the 2 vote Romanus wagon. I initially figured why should I change, people should be moving to IH not me moving to Romanus -- and then I had to leave my relatives' house before I had a chance to decide definitively. Even so, I am not disappointed with the decision.

Well, first of all, you came into the game saying you John was your top suspect. You accused others of not being on his wagon. You then switched to me, while accusing others of distracting away from John, but saying I was a better lynch, going after me.

Therefore, you were essentially distracting away from John by going after me, even though you were still attacking others for staying off of him.

You make no sense there, at least you aren't disagreeing with what I claimed. I thought and

still think

you two were very tied, and I initially thought him going first was the way to go, but shortly and for the rest of the game I thought and think you should be out the door.

Not only that, didn't you say you thought Aimee was more town? So why wouldn't you vote for the scummier player, instead of just apathetically having a lynch happen?

Why should I vote Romanus, who until just recently then I had thought was pro-town, instead of you, who I am almost sure is scum? Why can't I expect other townies to vote you and not lynch Aimee who was very, very townlike? Why do I have to be the one to go against my suspicions and lynch someone who I am not sure about? That's retarded.

Also IH, you weren't voting... so why unvote?

To make sure I was unvoting, since I would very much like a serious MoS post.

First, how do you not know if you are voting? Secondly, did you think you were voting MoS? Thirdly, even if you aren't sure if you are voting, couldn't you have freaking read the vote count at the top of the page!?

Guys, let's lynch IH, OK?

Read the above post and consider just how much he is ignoring my changes in opinion, twisting my words, and doing anything to deflect attention from himself and make me look scummy.

[Guardian]

There is a huge difference between finding scummy things, and completely ignoring where I change or retract arguments. You are doing the latter, and it is annoying, and scummy as hell.

Show me where you have retracted an argument XD

Are you serious? In the beginning of the game, as you mention later in this post, I retracted that John was a better lynch and said you were. In the middle of the game, I retracted that lynch to 4 was a good idea. Just recently, I retracted that Tony's day one play made him a good lynch. If you really are asking this question, I can't believe you were reading my posts...

Holy cow it didn't take you long to do exactly what I said you would. IH, it almost seems like you want me to hammer MoS -- I have been supporting lynching him for pages now, but I don't want to lynch him without him having a chance to respond. And somehow, some way, you are finding me scummy for this. Seriously, you are scum.

So MoS has been at lynch -1 all day, has he, I believe he just reached lynch -1

Again, you are being unreasonable. You were tied with MoS at 2-2. I still supported your lynch more than his, so I wasn't going to move to make it 3-1. Then, Skruffs moved and made it 3-1. I wasn't going to move at that time to make it 4-0 because I still supported your lynch more and I didn't want to put MoS at lynch -1 before he had a chance to reply.

I believe Simenon's VC is in error -- MoS is *still* at lynch -1, and I don't want to lynch him before he had a chance to reply. At no time today has it made sense for me to unvote you and vote MoS.

What on earth!? I want you lynched. If not you, MoS is seeming like an OK second option. How in hell can you possibly read me as currently wanting Romanus lynched. If I have ever used the term correctly, you are straw man-ing me there.

.....I will review your posts through the filter once more.

Ok... I clearly said at some point that I owed Skruffs and Romanus re-reads of stuff before I considered lynching them, but that it didn't matter because I wasn't at all interested in lynching them today... You must have skimmed my posts, at best, or, as I think, are deliberately trying to misinterpret them to throw suspicion on to me.

You make no sense there, at least you aren't disagreeing with what I claimed. I thought and still think you two were very tied, and I initially thought him going first was the way to go, but shortly and for the rest of the game I thought and think you should be out the door.

So why did you attack others for staying off of John afterwards?

I attacked

you

for staying off of John -- and then you voted him soon after I attacked you for it. It was and is still so obvious to me that you voted him to improve your voting record -- after I noted that not voting him was suspicious.

I attacked you for it because obviously you weren't going to vote yourself, my ideal play at the time, and you weren't voting John despite the growing evidence on him at the time.

Why should I vote Romanus, who until just recently then I had thought was pro-town, instead of you, who I am almost sure is scum? Why can't I expect other townies to vote you and not lynch Aimee who was very, very townlike? Why do I have to be the one to go against my suspicions and lynch someone who I am not sure about? That's retarded.

No, there were only two lynch choices. Nobody was moving to me.

I think that's ludicrous. Two votes for you (one from someone who had been voting Aimee) would have swung the vote to you. Similarly, one vote to Romanus from them would have changed things. I still supported your lynch, and while I considered switching, I think it is incredibly... poorly thought through to find me scummy for not voting Romanus who I thought was like 65% scum instead of IH who I thought and still think is 95% scum.

Why did you stay on me, instead of moving to Guardian, who you thought was scummier than Aimee

Nice typo? IH really wants me lynched bad -- I believe in slips as scum tells, and here he makes it clear that he wishes people were moving their votes to me.

First, how do you not know if you are voting? Secondly, did you think you were voting MoS? Thirdly, even if you aren't sure if you are voting, couldn't you have freaking read the vote count at the top of the page!?

<snip by Guardian>

Because sometimes in my rereads I vote, and switch my vote around. As my reread took more than one sitdown, I unvoted, just in case I had. Don't be stupid, before this post I knew I hadn't voted because I knew I hadn't voted yet.

OK, so you DID know you hadn't voted.

But why does this matter? How is this a factor towards anything?

Because your unvote was pointless. It was just rhetoric, like a confirm vote. Except here, you were trying to emphasize your not voting MoS. I am not sure how to take this -- I think it makes me want to lynch you over MoS even more. That being said, the significance of this

was

slight, but there was a significance.

How am I deflecting attention away from myself? I have made requests of you. If anything I have asked for more information

against

me.

Your request of me is like: "Guardian, please summarize your thoughts on anyone you have found suspicious all game. Also, summarize your thoughts on other's thoughts of who they have found scummy. Also, free popcorn and soda please lolol."

There is no way in hell I'm doing all of that before deadline and you know it -- and I don't think I'm going to do anywhere near all of it, for you, ever. You are trying to derail me by making me do pointless post after pointless post -- no way.


Also, interesting thing I note while reading your post:

you try and drop a "town tell" by asking the mod if scum can talk periodically -- how in hell would that be possible, considering the opening post says they can only talk before day one. That strikes me as scum trying to look townish.


Guys, IH is scum. I am more comfortable with my vote on him than I have been comfortable with any vote in online mafia, ever. Let's lynch him.

[Guardian]

I'm rather conflicted now. Last time I played with Guardian as town, he was extremely indecisive, which coupled with my underdeveloped scumhunting skills, lost town the game. This confidence that IH is scum is totally different, which under normal metagaming procedure would lead me to think that Guardian is scum.

I haven't been this confident about any lynch, ever, as town, except when LYLO logic made things obvious. In that game, look how confident I got near the end right before you mislynched me.

I don't want us to keep not lynching IH when I feel so good about him being scum and when I have demonstrated such good reasons for him being scum.

Though I'm also undecided as to IH's alignment, Guardians point about IH's question about scums ability to talk makes me wonder. It could possibly be that he is doing as Guardian says, trying to appeare protown through the comment. Though I could also see it as scum trying to actually find out from the mod the info they needed, and further, I could see it as IH trying to throw out some points about connections that wouldnt make sense due to replacements.

Yeah.

Furthermore, I'm concerned that MoS still hasnt posted too much content, and I'm still suspicious of Oman, (through suspicions of Romanus)

What are your thoughts on Romanus? I didn't see what Thok said was the best case on him in day one, and I think my suspicion on him might have largely been OMGUS.

[Guardian]

Thok, 1057 basically makes me feel that you are completely disregarding my arguments about IH, particularly my pbpa of day one and recent comments, and just trying to say:

"Calm down Guardian. IH probably isn't scum."


I don't like how you are defending him here, I think there is a much better than 23% chance of him being scum... again I think 95% is more accurate.

[Guardian]

Thok, 1057 basically makes me feel that you are completely disregarding my arguments about IH, particularly my pbpa of day one and recent comments, and just trying to say:

"Calm down Guardian. IH probably isn't scum."

Yes, that's for the most part what I'm saying, although I'm not ignoring your arguments.

Have you responded to my analysis of day one? I feel like you haven't?

(My comments also include a bit of a "Guys, Guardian is misguided and stubborn, not scum.") I don't believe either of you are scum, and I believe that the way you are playing has a potential to get both of you lynched.

I find that very patronizing, and not a small bit suspicious considering how likely I find it that IH is scum.

It's worth noting that Tony has accused both of you of having a "scum plan" (Tony attacked IH for his Occcult-Tony voting plan, and Guardian for his lynch to 4 plan).

Guardian, what's different between IH's behavior with respect to john and Romanus's/Oman's behavior with respect to john that makes you focus on IH and not Romanus/Oman? You claimed IH only voted YB to improve his voting record [which does not appear obvious to me since IH specifically mentioned YB's vote on Aimee as his reason for voting for him]. But, I'd argue that Romanus and mustafa also "jumped on the YB wagon", and both of them did it with a fairly massive flipflop (both argued against a YB wagon for a while, then jumped on at the end of the day-in contrast IH never claimed a YB wagon was a bad wagon that day) and yet you've been mostly ignoring them.

I need to finish my re-read. These may all be perfectly, valid points, or they may not. I hesitate to comment upon them before doing the re-read; I will get a chance to do so tomorrow assuming my mom didn't bust the internet at our house (she said she might have ).

However, that not withstanding, as of the last few pages and as of my re-read of day one, IH, by far, looks the scummiest.

Mos - you are not voting or defending yourself. Do you feel trapped, or something?

MoS. Give us a quick list of your suspicions.

I wish I could come to your fucking house and strangle you IRL. Seriously, fuck this game and fuck you. Pay the fuck attention or get out.

I understand your feelings -- IH in particular is being very unreasonable, and I really think he is scum.

I will most likely begin my reread on Tuesday. Until then, keep your pants on.

That is a long time to "keep our pants on" with deadline for Thursday/Friday...

[Guardian]

@Guardian, yes I'm patronizing you. Would you like me to point out other situations where I've patronized people as protown?

I'm not even going to try to metagame you, so no. Have you never patronized people as pro-scum before? . I didn't say that being patronizing was scummy in and of itself, but it IS very annoying, AND you are doing so in defense of IH.

My general feeling right now is that you are to some extent forcefeeding any data you can into being antiIH.

If by that you mean that every new post IH makes is very scummy, then... wait, nope, not what you mean.... Can no one else see this?

If one tries hard enough, one can make a decent looking case on anybody who is not confirmed protown.

OK, that is true. But I don't think I'm doing that here. I went after day one, particularly, with a very unbiased frame of mind, and still concluded that IH was far and above the most likely to be scum.

In addition, there are various things I like about IH in this game. I like his interaction with Tony Moonshine. I think IH's posts in this game have been self-consistent and filled with useful information about his suspicions. For the most part, I find the people IH has been going afer to be reasonable. I like that he admitted his part in the Occult lynch. I like that he didn't go after you for your lynch to 4 plan.

I'm not sure I like the IH-Tony interaction. I don't think IH's posts have been well thought out, though they have largely been self consistent. I don't think IH has been that reasonable in his suspicions. I don't like how he played a part in the Occult lynch -- it is obviously there, admitting it is a null tell. I am not sure about him and the lynch to 4 plan -- I think that people attacking me for that plan was stupid, and that scum might have been wary of doing so.

[Guardian]

IH, I've already explained how your multiple requests of me are ludicrous, I will consider responding to the one you bolded and said was most important, but there is no way I am going to resummarize all my thoughts and suspicions on everyone, and select thoughts and suspicions of other players -- which is basically what you asked me to do.

You were like "Please resummarize everything you've thought and are thinking and might have thought all game." No way.

I PM'd Simenon and asked for a deadline extension, but since the fad is to look cool and do it here

mod:

please extend deadline.



Skruffs, that question strikes me as very pro-town -- you are one of the first who asked me a reasonably fulfill-able question, and you seem to take my IH case seriously, thought you have the annoying habbit of switching your vote off him every time it gets there.

If IH is lynched and turns up scum, I will not be going after Tony or Elias -- Tony I don't think could be scum with IH, and Elias still seems pretty town to me.

Thok I would suspect just for this recent and very obvious "No, not IH. Silly Guardian." VitaminR and Skruffs also I saw as linked to John and IH all game, and Skruffs, honestly, you keep changing your mind lately and while some of your thoughts really strike me the right way, some don't. VitaminR is reading the game and not contributing, and I don't like his day one actions.

MoS I would be less interested in if IH comes up scum, because of how IH is acting towards MoS now -- the unvote and the asking me to vote MoS, among other things.

Oman I need to finish re-reading on, but I think there would be bigger fish to fry.

So, if IH is lynched confirmed as scum, which I really would happen were he lynched, I would go after (in somewhat of an order):


VitaminR, I don't like his play day one and he has been a bit lurkish here.
Thok, his role has fluttered in and out, and he has greatly defended IH recently.
Skruffs, wavering back and forth, saying he finds IH scummy then always finding his vote somewhere else.
Oman, no real connection to IH, but scummy independently.
MoS, somewhat unlikely to be scum with IH.
Elias, probably not scum, pro-town feeling all game.
Tony, very unlikely to be scum with IH.


Skruffs, thanks for making me think about that, actually -- I now support the MoS wagon even less -- IH being scum for sure would really make me think MoS is pro-town, just because of IH's recent behavior.

I hope I've made sense and answered that well enough for you to understand my thinking. Skruffs, you have seemed more or less townlike recently, but your gameplay before this re: John and re: IH is disturbing. I think IH scum would pretty much clear Tony and MoS (and me, unless you think I am an insane bus maniac), which is even a better reason for IH to be lynched.

Let's quit lynching MoS and lynch IH. .

[Guardian]

Skruffs, I really see no reason to change my agenda without changing my mind. If someone convinces me IH is not likely scum, I'd stop pushing for him. But I really really think he is scum.

If IH somehow showed up town:

MoS - looks scummy, IH link means nothing.
Tony - IH found him scummy, Tony has been fairly scummy, behavior re: John was bad. IH being town takes away the "Tony can't be scum with IH" argument.
VitaminR - pretty scummy even without link to IH.
Oman - Still in the middle, need to re-read
Skruffs - his unvoting of IH several times is now meaningless, his day one and two behavior can reasonably be seen as good scum hunting and not a bus.
Thok - much lower, defense of IH becomes reasonable, not much on him besides that.
Elias - still pretty townlike.


Skruffs, I can understand why you are annoyed IF you are town. But your day 1 and 2 did look like a bus, and you do seem very linked to IH if he turns up scum -- but VitaminR and Thok could be partners with him without needing you (that is four already) and I would pursue them first, probably. If IH is not scum, then I concede that you would look less scummy. Really, if IH is lynched, I am not very interested in lynching you tomorrow or the next day, regardless of his alignment. So while I find you scummy/middle of the road, I think I give off a more Skruffs-is-scum impression than I really feel.

All that being said, I thought I had a great read on the game when I replaced in, and that read has STILL not been proven wrong. I think there is a good chance it is right, and the continuing testing of whether it is right starts with lynching IH. No one besides IH has disagreed with my reasons for voting him, mostly people are just ignoring him and going to MoS, another easy target. But no one has made even a dent in my reasoning that IH is a better target and that IH is scum.

I think that either partners are busing MoS, or he is town -- otherwise nearly everyone in the game probably would not be finding him so scummy.

[Guardian]

I think that either partners are busing MoS, or he is town -- otherwise nearly everyone in the game probably would not be finding him so scummy.

This seems like a slip up to me, as well.

Huh? I was just remarking that if MoS is scum, seeing as almost everyone is willing to vote him, busing is definitely going on. I think everyone's lack of reluctance to vote him is slightly indicative of him being town.

I am going out soon, but I will respond to your above post asap. You make good points, and actually helped me think through some things -- but I think you are getting a scummy vibe from me off of it? Anyways, I will clarify.

[Guardian]

Guardian's outlook, based on IH's alignment:

IH = Blue

/

IH = Mafia

ZOMG we have two factions, the Blue and the Mafia! xD.

MoS - looks scummy, IH link means nothing.

/

MoS, somewhat unlikely to be scum with IH.

Change: Scum/Town

That is accurate, and I think reasonable. In this post I will use a 1-10 meterstick of scumminess/how much I'd want them lynched.

IH town - 8
IH scum - 2

Tony - IH found him scummy, Tony has been fairly scummy, behavior re: John was bad. IH being town takes away the "Tony can't be scum with IH" argument.

/

Tony, very unlikely to be scum with IH.

Scum/Town

Again, accurate.

IH town - 8
IH scum - 1

VitaminR - pretty scummy even without link to IH.

/

VitaminR, I don't like his play day one and he has been a bit lurkish here.

Scum/Scum

Yeah -- like this made me realize that I should be pushing for VitaminR lynched more than I have been. I would like IH lynched more, but VitaminR is a good backup plan, if people feel like doing that .

IH town - 7
IH scum - 8

Oman - Still in the middle, need to re-read

/

Oman, no real connection to IH, but scummy independently.

Neutral*/Scum

I am pretty much neutral/neutral on him. I need to finish my re-read badly. All these reads are based on my careful inspection of day one and my memory as to what happened afterwards.

Romanus I thought was scummy day three, but recently I began wondering if my suspicion of him was just OMGUS with bad reasons. So I need to re-read to get a better fix on Romanus.

IH town - ?
IH scum - ?

Skruffs - his unvoting of IH several times is now meaningless, his day one and two behavior can reasonably be seen as good scum hunting and not a bus.

/

Skruffs, wavering back and forth, saying he finds IH scummy then always finding his vote somewhere else.

Town/Neutral

Yes, this is pretty fair. Skruffs is striking me as town more and more though, but I am wary of his slips and jumpyness.

IH town - 3
IH scum - 7

Thok - much lower, defense of IH becomes reasonable, not much on him besides that.

/

Thok, his role has fluttered in and out, and he has greatly defended IH recently.

Town/Scum(maybe?)

Yeah. Still no great read on Thok. I will definitely not be interested in him tomorrow if IH is lynched and is town.

IH town - 2
IH scum - 7.5

Elias - still pretty townlike.

/

Elias, probably not scum, pro-town feeling all game.

Town/Town

IH town - 2
IH scum - 3

Just for his lack of supporting an IH lynch .

*While having no opinion on Oman, Guardian wavered himself on Romanus a good bit, initially saying he is town but dropping his opinion down with notes on any suspicious activities. He put Romanus 3rd from bottom on listing of 'most scummy' - not in the middle with the other neutrals. Basically distancing while saying he thinks he's town.

I am not sure about Romanus -- like I said my vision on him might have been clouded and I need a re-read on him. I thought for a time he was very scummy, almost as bad as I saw Skruffs to be, but like I said my feelings have changed and I need to finish reading.

Lastly - You say you only wanted to see IH lynched day 3 at the expense of anything else, BUT, day three (before you disappeared for vacation), you said...

Hey guys - deadline will come and go while I am at the beach.

I want to see lynched:
IH, Skruffs, Romanus?, Vitr?

I

do not

want to see lynched:
Aimee, Elias, me

Aimee was most in danger of being lynched at that time - you acknowledged you would like to see Romanus, lynched, that you didn't want to see aimee lynched, and that you wanted to see IH lynched most of all. But you did not go another step and actually put a vote on Romanus - instead keeping your vote on IH, who was not really under much suspicion.

I have addressed this -- I was not sure enough of Romanus at the time and definitely am not sure enough of him now to make that move. I think it is unreasonable to expect that I should go to my number two/three suspect AND to find me scummy for this when there were any number of other players who could and should have switched.

I didn't know for sure Aimee was town, that was just my read. I felt good about it, but three players felt bad about that read, and were voting her. I didn't want to try and derail that to lynch someone who might be town -- if I helped lynch Romanus and he turned up town, Aimee and I would be suspect today. Me doing it didn't make sense. People should have switched off of Aimee and on to IH, or we should hold them responsible for Aimee's lynch. Holding me responsible for it doesn't make sense to me.

Also, I had like 30 minutes or less to consider this while at a beach house with family. I was thinking about it, hadn't decided to do it, and then I had to leave. I am happy with not doing it thought -- as outlined above, that was pretty much my thought process at the time, and I think I had good reasons for deciding not to move my vote.

Also, I have(I think) looked at pretty much everyone in this game, so saying that I am wavering about IH is hardly a scum tell. I also wavered on AImee, Occult, Mustafa/MOS, BM, John, and Elias, n probably others.

I haven't been focusing on this, but if that's true, then you are right. I notice it a lot on IH, you've promised to vote him like 3 times and then I find your vote moving somewhere else.

Lastly, playing favorites is bad in a game where scum's greatest chance of winning is in getting townies to mis-vote each other.

Huh? I don't understand what you are talking about here -- clarify please.

Setting up two lynches in a row is dangerous when we are close to LYLO. It's worth it to discuss

First, I think IH is scum so if we lynch him we'll be farther from LYLO. Second, how am I setting up two lynches? I want IH first, and then if he is scum consider certain players (like VitaminR, Thok, Skruffs) and if he is town consider other players (like MoS, Tony, VitaminR).

For the record, on the 1-10 scale, I feel like 11 about IH.

[Guardian]

IH, I've already explained how your multiple requests of me are ludicrous, I will consider responding to the one you bolded and said was most important, but there is no way I am going to resummarize all my thoughts and suspicions on everyone, and select thoughts and suspicions of other players -- which is basically what you asked me to do.

Then there is nothing new, and pretty much all of your arguments have been refuted.

Pretty much all of my arguments from my day one re-reads have been ignored, except by you, and I responded back, and they haven't been refuted by any means. Also, the past few pages from you have been incredibly scummy.

You were like "Please resummarize everything you've thought and are thinking and might have thought all game." No way.

It doesn't seem to be much lately other than "ZOMG, IH IS SCUM"

That confirms it. You aren't actually reading my posts....

I'm unsure why you have to connect EVERYTHING in this game to me. It's getting kind of ridiculous. You aren't joking are you?

I connect your behavior to you being scummy, not anything close to what you are saying. No way I'm joking.

Skruffs, I really see no reason to change my agenda without changing my mind. If someone convinces me IH is not likely scum, I'd stop pushing for him. But I really really think he is scum.

I seriously doubt that, because you'll just say what you've said every other time. "I have a REALLY good feeling IH is scum, don't you see what I've shown you already?"

I doubt I'll be convinced you aren't scum too. No one but you has even attempted to try and refute my numerous arguments as to why you are scum, and when you tried imo you didn't do so successfully.

Aimee was most in danger of being lynched at that time - you acknowledged you would like to see Romanus, lynched, that you didn't want to see aimee lynched, and that you wanted to see IH lynched most of all. But you did not go another step and actually put a vote on Romanus - instead keeping your vote on IH, who was not really under much suspicion.

QFT

I have addressed this -- I was not sure enough of Romanus at the time and definitely am not sure enough of him now to make that move. I think it is unreasonable to expect that I should go to my number two/three suspect AND to find me scummy for this when there were any number of other players who could and should have switched.

I didn't know for sure Aimee was town, that was just my read. I felt good about it, but three players felt bad about that read, and were voting her. I didn't want to try and derail that to lynch someone who might be town -- if I helped lynch Romanus and he turned up town, Aimee and I would be suspect today. Me doing it didn't make sense. People should have switched off of Aimee and on to IH, or we should hold them responsible for Aimee's lynch. Holding me responsible for it doesn't make sense to me.

Lame. If you think someone is town, you try to save them. You don't worry about how you'll look.

If I knew Aimee was town and Romanus was scum, I'd have moved. All I had was conjecture and reads. If I moved to "save" Aimee and Romanus was lynched and was town, then I get signed up for a mislynch. That doesn't help anyone. What's worse -- what if I was wrong? And Aimee was scum -- not only do I mislynch Romanus and get mislynched, Aimee gets off scot free. By no means was it clearly best for me to act there.

That's what scum do. Not town. I continue to dislike your survivor mentality.

I have not won a single game where I've been mislynched. I've lost four. In all of those, if the town had accepted that I was town and followed my reads, we'd have won. Damn right I don't want to look scummy and get mislynched.

[Guardian]

That's what scum do. Not town. I continue to dislike your survivor mentality.

I have not won a single game where I've been mislynched. I've lost four. In all of those, if the town had accepted that I was town and followed my reads, we'd have won. Damn right I don't want to look scummy and get mislynched.

Just for reference: is that your initial reads or your reads at Lynch or Lose? Because one of those is less relevant than the other right now.

Two games I replaced in at lylo, so... . One other I had the reads all game since day 2, one other I pretty much had since I replaced in at midgame.

[Guardian]

Also, Thok... if I only had a record at lylo, would you say we should ignore me until lylo and THEN take my word as gospel??

That makes little sense, to me.

[Guardian]

Also, Thok... if I only had a record at lylo, would you say we should ignore me until lylo and THEN take my word as gospel??

That makes little sense, to me.

You have a lot more information in Lynch or Lose then you do in in your initial read. Moreover, some scum may be more aggressive in trying to get you lynched at lynch or lose. I'm just saying tht we shouldn't blindly follow you, even if we think you are likely protown.

I largely agree with this post.

I am not asking for blind following. I don't think I am that good at this, I do have a good record though and I try and think things through.

What I am asking for is people to discuss my case on IH, specifically from the day one re-read and my back and forth with him the past few pages.

I feel he shines out as scummy there, and no one besides IH himself has addressed that in detail -- so as far as I am concerned, I don't see why anyone besides IH has a good reason to NOT think IH is scum -- he largely isn't being considered.

[Guardian]

Guardians, looking over your day 1 analysis, I have a few questions for you

1. Why do you thing the initial argument for JohnScum required a genius reading of John? If so, why and what would have been your interpretation of John's post 5 on first seeing it?

I just didn't think that his comment was that scummy. I could easily interpret it as a townie wanting to know how this odd "nightless" thing worked.

2. Blahgo immediately jumped on the john wagon at the start of the day 1. According to your initial reread, you claim you didn't think he was bussing (before you knew his role). Is there a reason for this (you claimed to like BM's play, but I'd like to see why you thought it wasn't consistent with the possibility of blahgo bussing)?

I don't remember claiming that, or my mindset. Had I claimed it after knowing my role, I would say that I see it as obviously not busing, because it wasn't, and hadn't considered the possibility.

If I truly didn't know my role, I guess then I probably was thinking that the vote without a post was scummy (I have since dropped that belief, but held it then) and that he wouldn't act so scummy in busing a partner, when it would have been easy to either explain things better or just not bus.

3. As far as I can tell, the initial John wagon only reached three votes. Who do you think was more responsible for that john wagon disappearing; the people who unvoted John, or the people who didn't vote John in the first place?

I hadn't thought about this -- I think, objectively, the people who were more responsible for a wagon disappearing were those who never voted someone -- but I don't find the initial John wagon disappearing to be that relevant or even necessarily adhering to this general principle -- I find it scummier near end of day when people piled on Occult, some even though they found John really scummy too (Vitr, for example).

4. Do you feel people should always blindly push their current favorite wagon, even if it doesn't seem to be going anywhere?

I don't really have concrete thoughts on what "people" should do, I think it depends on the situation and how good they feel about their case. You are certainly referring to me-IH here, and I feel I should continue pushing it, albeit not blindly. Unless my opinion of him changes, the degree to which I find him scummy makes me think that I should continue pushing it -- I think my giving up on it, even though it isn't easy at the moment, would be a disservice to the town -- I don't want us to keep ignoring IH.

@Skruffs -- thanks . I would be, but I've learned the hard way that throwing a fit, even if justified, usually doesn't convince people and often leads to a mislynch.

[Guardian]

4. Do you feel people should always blindly push their current favorite wagon, even if it doesn't seem to be going anywhere?

I don't really have concrete thoughts on what "people" should do, I think it depends on the situation and how good they feel about their case. You are certainly referring to me-IH here, and I feel I should continue pushing it, albeit not blindly. Unless my opinion of him changes, the degree to which I find him scummy makes me think that I should continue pushing it -- I think my giving up on it, even though it isn't easy at the moment, would be a disservice to the town -- I don't want us to keep ignoring IH.

I'm actually also indirectly refering to the early john wagon; I'm wondering whether you felt that people should have kept pushing it/moving back to it even when it felt other people in the town didn't seem willing to join in to some extent (or favored Occult over john for whatever reason).

Oh -- like I said, it depends on how strong they felt about it. VitaminR for example, I find fault with, as he "found" John so early and had such conviction all day, and yet supported an Occult lynch.

Other players maybe shouldn't be found fault with, as townies can definitely be unsure and then they shouldn't push agendas as much. We can't assume anyone is town though -- so while we definitely should look to see if people not pushing could be done as town, we can't assume that anyone's not pushing means they are town -- scum definitely have an incentive to get "swept away" and stop busing.

[Guardian]

That confirms it. You aren't actually reading my posts....

Oh I'm reading them, but you seem to be twisting anything and everything you see into IH is scum.

You were like "Please resummarize everything you've thought and are thinking and might have thought all game." No way.

It doesn't seem to be much lately other than "ZOMG, IH IS SCUM"

That confirms it. You aren't actually reading my posts....

Yeah, like I said, if you are classifying my arguments in total as "ZOMG IH IS SCUM", then you aren't reading -- at the least you are not considering them in any serious fashion.

I connect your behavior to you being scummy, not anything close to what you are saying. No way I'm joking.

Please either look at your posts through the filter, or review the past page or two....

Just did, nothing has changed.

I doubt I'll be convinced you aren't scum too. No one but you has even attempted to try and refute my numerous arguments as to why you are scum, and when you tried imo you didn't do so successfully.

Well, unfortunately for your case, it doesn't really matter if you believe I haven't refuted them, it matters to the town. I understand how you think I'm scum, but clearly they aren't as good as you think, and you didn't reply to my response good enough because, look, I'm still alive.

That is such horrible reasoning -- my having not convinced the town yet and you being still alive doesn't mean that you are town, or that my arguments are bad -- all it means is I have some convincing to do.

If I knew Aimee was town and Romanus was scum, I'd have moved. All I had was conjecture and reads. If I moved to "save" Aimee and Romanus was lynched and was town, then I get signed up for a mislynch. That doesn't help anyone. What's worse -- what if I was wrong? And Aimee was scum -- not only do I mislynch Romanus and get mislynched, Aimee gets off scot free. By no means was it clearly best for me to act there.

Not the point. You're worrying to much about what others will think about you, which is a scummy, or atleast anti town attitude. Thats why I pushed for Occult day 1. I didn't care that it would look like I was "distracting" away from the John lynch, I cared that I was going after scum. In other words, this argument doesn't fly. Surviving is not the object of the game, lynching scum is the object of the game.

Lynching scum is the object of the game. Me being mislynched =/= lynching scum. Me AND Romanus being mislynched and Aimee, who potentially was scum VERY =/= lynching scum. I tried to convince people. I don't think the impetus was on me to do more, and I don't think it makes sense to take that position.

And your defense of the Occult wagon is completely irrelevant if you found Occult very, very scummy. If you found him pretty scummy but not your top suspect, you wouldn't have acted as you did.

You can say that about any lynch. "What if I was wrong?" That is also the wrong attitude to take, as then the town is paralyzed into not doing anything.

OR, you can go after your top suspect, and not settle for your third, and expect the town to reason with you. Which is what I am doing. I am OK with taking responsibility if you come up town, because I find the chance of that to be very small. I wasn't willing to have me take the blame and Aimee get almost cleared if Romanus is town.

Plus look at it from my point of view.

Romanus was on your like to be lynched list.
Aimee was on your more town list.
Deadline forced you to decide between the two, but instead you stayed on me. In this case, not making a decision, is actually making a decision for all purposes.
Therefore, your suspicions are either inconsistent, or you didn't actually mean it when you wanted Romanus lynched, or thought Aimee was more town.

I can see it from "your" POV. Romanus I thought maybe should be lynched, Aimee I thought was probably town. My feelings were not strong enough to justify the potentially horrible consequences of my moving.

And what people seem to be missing -- it isn't as if I didn't consider this. It wasn't like a 100% obvious easy decision, it was kind of close. But I think I made the right one.

I have not won a single game where I've been mislynched. I've lost four. In all of those, if the town had accepted that I was town and followed my reads, we'd have won. Damn right I don't want to look scummy and get mislynched.

I seriously doubt that your last four games depended on you being alive or dead (unless you were scum). = |

I think at least three of them hinged on people realizing I was town. And I was in the games, and have read them. You were not, and I assume you have not.

Also, Thok... if I only had a record at lylo, would you say we should ignore me until lylo and THEN take my word as gospel??

That makes little sense, to me.

no one is going to take your word for gospel, because you're unconfirmed.

Thok implied I would be trusted more at lylo, which didn't make sense to me. You are taking my words out of context.

I continue to think it unwell of you, that if you truly want people to continue to discuss the case on me, that they should go back to day 2, instead of you posting it here for them.

What!? I want people to discuss the case on you. Sitting around and asking that they do so hasn't worked, so I have to bring it foreward. I would love if people independently were bringing up arguments on you, but they aren't. Asking that I not continue to make cases on my #1 suspect is stupid.

Some of John's later comments seem consistent with some of his opinions of me....

I don't understand what you mean here.

Can I do no right in this persons eyes?

Not at this rate. I still am convinced you are scum.

I'm about 10 sec away from asking for replacement because of IH

and Skruffs

's

fucking retarded

bullshit. That being said, however, I'm beginning my reread after posting in my other games today.

I am not about to give up and be replaced, but I understand how you feel...

[Guardian]

Guardian, what do you believe Romanus/Oman has done that you would consider to be protown?

Have you thought about the possibility of a VitR+Romanus+X group, with X to be determined? (That seems like something I feel you would have considered, given the things you seem to be focusing on.)

This post highlights that I need to finish my re-read badly. Hopefully 8 pages today, tomorrow, and the next -- then I will be caught up well and be able to respond better.

Romanus... he hasn't done much really. I am not sure on him at all as I was before. He has attacked me a lot, which is most definitely not pro town , but other than that he hasn't contributed much original insight that I can remember. So I am not sure about him, and need to watch him carefully in my re-read.

Vitr is a good contributor for any scum group -- his recent lurking and previous actions make him connected to John and not incompatible with many others.

[Guardian]

Guardian fairly clearly believes that an IH lynch is the best play for the day. I believe that's a town tell; scum would have found some way to resolve the issue in another way. (In addition, if IH is town and Guardian is scum, he's basically in a position of a permanent 1-1 trade with IH which I don't think is a good deal for scum.)

I am happy that you see it as a town tell, but I don't like how you say it is a town tell then say that if I am wrong then I should be definitely lynched or whatnot. But that is OK, I guess, since as you said, I am very convinced IH is the best play, and if 4 more people voted IH they would be fairly convinced too.

Basically, if you believe IH is 110% scum, Guardian's play with respect to every other person in the game is to some extent reasonable.

95% -- but that is about as sure as I've ever been without LYLO logic.

The problems with Guardian's choice of line of play (assuming that he is town) is that his IH case isn't as strong as he thinks it is (at least in my opinion)

Then show me why!

that he's neglecting to some extent the cases on other players if such a suspicion doesn't fit in with IH=scum

Yes, possibly -- if IH were to be lynched and come up town, that would drastically change my outlook -- knowing his alignment for sure would help me out very much, not the primary reason I want him lynched, but a very nice benefit.

(and also other possible connections between players)

Again, that may be true to an extent -- I have looked for John connections and IH connections. There is no one else I find scummy enough to spend time looking for connections to them without their alignment confirmed.

and that if both of IH and Guardian are townies, then Guardian is setting himself up to be lynch if he gets IHtown lynched. (If IH is scum, obviously the last part is irrelevant.)

Like I said, I don't quite see why that follows, but I am not particularly worried -- I really think IH is scum.

Thok, I really liked this post, because you at least can see where I am coming from. If you or someone else could show me why my case on him is bad, then I would be happy to consider that -- but as for now, I think he is scum.

@Elias -- you bet I'd love to get MoS to vote IH after his re-read. I would love 2 or 3 IH votes at this point, and then if nothing improves a 4th.

[Guardian]

@Thok -- Oh, OK. Well, I wouldn't push for it either, so that is 2/8, so maybe we don't have to worry so much . I would expect some scrutiny though, as I have pushed so hard -- but like I said I really doubt that IH will turn up town.

Lynching scum is the object of the game. Me being mislynched =/= lynching scum. Me AND Romanus being mislynched and Aimee, who potentially was scum VERY =/= lynching scum. I tried to convince people. I don't think the impetus was on me to do more, and I don't think it makes sense to take that position.

And your defense of the Occult wagon is completely irrelevant if you found Occult very, very scummy. If you found him pretty scummy but not your top suspect, you wouldn't have acted as you did.

wtf!?

Thats a horrible track of thought, especially since it's only helpful to you, not to us in anyways. I would have considered it more protown that you had been consistent instead of wanting to stay alive.

I didn't want to flub it up, I don't see how this doesn't make sense.

Not only that, no crap I thought Occult was my top suspect. I explained why. Not only that, even Occult admitted it wasn't looking good for him with the case i laid out.

Plus why are you even lecturing me on the consistency of my suspicions when you haven't been consistent with your own (assuming you're town)

Because you tried to compare how I should have voted Romanus to your behavior on Occult -- Romanus wasn't my top suspect, Occult WAS yours -- so you voting him isn't comparable to me voting Romanus -- I was refuting YOUR analogy.

OR, you can go after your top suspect, and not settle for your third, and expect the town to reason with you. Which is what I am doing. I am OK with taking responsibility if you come up town, because I find the chance of that to be very small. I wasn't willing to have me take the blame and Aimee get almost cleared if Romanus is town.

Not in a frickin deadline situation where those are the only two choices. There is clearly a difference.

Why weren't you a legitimate choice? Why wasn't MoS? You required two votes, he required one....

Why am I being beaten over the head with this by you because I happened to sign in, of the 6 or so people who could have tried to make a difference?

It's like talking to a brick wall = |

I feel the same way = |

I can see it from "your" POV. Romanus I thought maybe should be lynched, Aimee I thought was probably town. My feelings were not strong enough to justify the potentially horrible consequences of my moving.

And what people seem to be missing -- it isn't as if I didn't consider this. It wasn't like a 100% obvious easy decision, it was kind of close. But I think I made the right one.

How? It wasn't even really that informative of a lynch, other than you really don't want to be lynched....

I bet if I had jumped onto Romanus and someone else did and he was town, you would be all over me right now, and we still would have Aimee here as a red herring. Me jumping wasn't best, imo.

Whether or not it was best, you are trying to argue that it wasn't conceivable for a townie to think that it was the best -- and that is ridiculous -- it was not at all obvious that moving my vote was the best play there, and I in fact think it was not best.

I think at least three of them hinged on people realizing I was town. And I was in the games, and have read them. You were not, and I assume you have not.

unless you were in lylo, I don't think it was dependent upon you living, because thats the whole reason there is a team. It is not dependent on any one purpose.

2 games were lylo, 2 games I kept saying "X is scum for these reasons" and no one would listen, and then it eventually got to lylo, and then not only did people not listen they mislynched me or someone else, losing the game. I don't want it to have to get to lylo here, I want you to be lynched.

Maybe I just think it's kind of vain, but it irritates me slightly (not like annoyance (though it does a little bit) but like when someone declares themself the most protown without anyone out right saying it)

I think Elias is the most pro-town, he is slipping a bit lately, but still I find him, objectively at least, about as pro-town or more pro-town than me. Where are you getting this from?

In other words, you're treating the rest of the town like incompetent people who are incapable of thinking or making reads or having suspicion. If you don't do it, it doesn't get done.

How am I doing this at all? I am asking people to teach me how you are not scum, to discuss things, to not leave me to the side and just move on. I am not taking an elitist attitude -- far from it -- I want the rest of the town to take a part in what I find to be a good case on you.

What!? I want people to discuss the case on you. Sitting around and asking that they do so hasn't worked, so I have to bring it foreward. I would love if people independently were bringing up arguments on you, but they aren't. Asking that I not continue to make cases on my #1 suspect is stupid.

You misunderstand me. I mean quote the case, or retype it, or something. It would at least bring it to the fore. I didn't ask, I said I think it unwell of you. In fact there is not even a question there. There is a statement, that you want people to discuss it, but you won't bring it to this page. Instead you insist on others going back to read it.

If people had any interest in reading my case on you, they could just look at my most recent posts in isolation. I haven't been keeping my case on you a secret...

I don't understand what you mean here.

Excuse me, that was "Some of Guardian's later comments seem inconsistent with some of his opinions of me"

?? Such as?

Guardian, my recent lurking has very little to do with this game.

Is that what you told everyone in Calvin and Hobbes mafia? I hear it just ended and that you lurked your way to a win after your partner got lynched by you busing him day one. Hmm... similarity to this game, anyone??

As for the Occult wagon, yeah, I was wrong. I got too focussed on the fact that Occult defended John so vehemently.

Wait, what!?!? Occult defending John (for good reasons) is scummy if and only if John is scum... So you found Occult scummy... for defending... scum? You knew John was scum?

FOS: VitaminR

.

This is going out on a huge limb for me, but if VitaminR continues to look bad on re-read, I guess I could theoretically support a VitaminR lynch over an IH lynch, even though an IH lynch would be better.

I agree with Thok's assessment of Guardian.

Which means what, exactly?

[Guardian]

Guardian, my recent lurking has very little to do with this game.

Is that what you told everyone in Calvin and Hobbes mafia? I hear it just ended and that you lurked your way to a win after your partner got lynched by you busing him day one. Hmm... similarity to this game, anyone??

"Lurked my way to victory"? Have you even read the game?

Glork described it to me as you busing your scum partner day one and then lurking to victory, and I skimmed the game and do not disagree with his analysis.

As for the Occult wagon, yeah, I was wrong. I got too focussed on the fact that Occult defended John so vehemently.

Wait, what!?!? Occult defending John (for good reasons) is scummy if and only if John is scum... So you found Occult scummy... for defending... scum? You knew John was scum?

FOS: VitaminR

.

I didn't push for Occult over John. I pushed for both their lynches. I thought they were linked. For most, if not all, of Day 1, I preferred a John lynch. I just ended up settling for an Occult one first.

You did prefer a John lynch all day -- but you just said that you settled of an Occult one

because

Occult defended John -- Occult defending John is only scummy if you know John is scum...

I agree with Thok's assessment of Guardian.

Which means what, exactly?

That I think you're pro-town.

Err, cool?

1) Your unnecessary vehemence in going after IH.

Unnecessary? Why? And why is this a town tell?

2) The sincerity with which you seem to change your mind.

Hm. OK, this makes sense to me.

3) The time and effort you put into the game.

Hm. Yeah, even the most effort I've put in as scum (see Theoville) didn't match that with which I've attacked this game.... In general, though, I'm not sure I am comfortable with effort = town as a town tell....


I really am not liking atm how you said you voted Occult for defending John vehemently.

[Guardian]

Glork described it to me as you busing your scum partner day one and then lurking to victory, and I skimmed the game and do not disagree with his analysis.

*shrug*

I did not intentionally lurk or avoid the thread. I gave my opinion on all the discussions that were ongoing. Having said that, there were a lot of long posts in periods where I didn't have the access to participitate as actively as I could have.

If that is true, I completely understand. I can't just take you at your word, there, though.

I find the implication that I would bus my partner and then leech off that for the rest of the game somewhat unkind, but I get the feeling you're inclined to think the worst of me at the moment.

?? If you mean I think you are scummy, then yes.

I don't think you are a bad player at all, if that is what you mean -- in the game I referenced you bused and stayed in the shadows excellently -- it was great play!

You did prefer a John lynch all day -- but you just said that you settled of an Occult one

because

Occult defended John -- Occult defending John is only scummy if you know John is scum...

I thought his defense was scummy because I thought John was scum AND because I felt he applied a double standard. I said that at the time too. Keeping that in mind and my strong feeling that John was scum, I felt secure enough to hammer.

You did hammer late, but you were back and forth all day. You just mentioned the double standard -- in the past few posts you were just saying that it was in defense of John, not mentioning anything about a double standard. If you thought John was scum, and Occult was scummy for only defending John, then you try and lynch John first.

That is why day two I initally wanted YB lynched first, and only changed because I could see YB being town (Occult defended him, after all) and IH being scum and just following Vitr and leading a wagon on a townie, without YB being his partner.

If someone defending someone else is your

only

or

main

reason for finding them scummy over someone else, lynching the defendee before the defender is the right play.

1) Your unnecessary vehemence in going after IH.

Unnecessary? Why? And why is this a town tell?

Because it hurts your cause more than it helps it.

It does? How do I help my case without pushing it ?

How far you're willing to go and how much flak you're willing to take makes me think you're sincere.

That makes sense, I guess.

In general, though, I'm not sure I am comfortable with effort = town as a town tell....

I'm not either, but it captures a gut feeling I have about your posts. You seem sincerely frustrated with the response or lack of response of other people. It really feels like you've invested in this game and that is generally indicative of a pro-town player.

Yeah, I mean I know that to be true, I guess I am just a little leery that you can "see" that so clearly. But you have explained well why you find me townlike, the main smoking gun for me are your own stated reasons for attacking Occult over YB.

Maybe I just think it's kind of vain, but it irritates me slightly (not like annoyance (though it does a little bit) but like when someone declares themself the most protown without anyone out right saying it)

I think Elias is the most pro-town, he is slipping a bit lately, but still I find him, objectively at least, about as pro-town or more pro-town than me. Where are you getting this from?

Out of curiousity, how have I been slipping of late?

You are, to a small extent, fence sitting, and tossing suspicion back and forth as convenient.

Also, this may be because of your long absence, but some of your logic does not seem to be consistent with your positions just a few weeks ago.

[Guardian]

Just occurred to me -- Elias, could you do an off the top of your head list, with a few reasons next to the names, of most scummy to least?

One thing that slightly irks me -- I have no clear idea of who you find town-like -- which I think is significant in nightless (the scum can't kill people we all find town-like, so we should have it out there in the open).

I have a somewhat good idea of who you find most scummy, but after a top one or two people, it all blends together.

[Guardian]

PIECE OF SHIT MOZILLA FIREFOX I analyzed up through page 22 and it got deleted when I accidentally closed the weong tab piece of shit damnit shit .....

No way I am doing that again tonight. Maybe tomorrow, but unlikely. I might just start up again at page 22, I doubt I will have the motivation to do this all again.


An important impression was that a MoS -- Vitr scum group makes sense, Vitr looks really scummy, vitr scum means thok not scum, IH looks pretty scummy still as does skruffs, rest look pro-town/ neutral.

this sucks, a lot. wtf.

[Guardian]

I am so annoyed right now. I was making headway, and actually was to a point where I was considering MoS -- Vitr -- Romanus/Skruffs as a posibility

if

IH is not scum.

But I don't have any of my reasoning left....

[Guardian]

Because we did not have enough votes on. Plus it wasn't just that you could make a difference, it was that you had expressed a thought and didn't follow through with it.
AKA inconsistency with your statements.

I'll let you have the last say here. I've explained myself, you've explained your side of it, if people want to here more then fine, but as for now no.

I bet if I had jumped onto Romanus and someone else did and he was town, you would be all over me right now, and we still would have Aimee here as a red herring. Me jumping wasn't best, imo.

Whether or not it was best, you are trying to argue that it wasn't conceivable for a townie to think that it was the best -- and that is ridiculous -- it was not at all obvious that moving my vote was the best play there, and I in fact think it was not best.

I wouldn't be attacking you for sticking to your suspicions, plus you act as if Romanus/oman has been confirmed town. It is still possible he is scum.
It may not have been obvious it was the best play, but it is obvious that there were only two choices for that lynch when the deadline gets close enough....

I am saying it was not obviously the best play for me to switch my vote. You disagree. You are not going to get me to agree with you, because I didn't at the time, and I don't now.

2 games were lylo, 2 games I kept saying "X is scum for these reasons" and no one would listen, and then it eventually got to lylo, and then not only did people not listen they mislynched me or someone else, losing the game. I don't want it to have to get to lylo here, I want you to be lynched.

Well then, if you were town, and they lynched you, that is the only reason. It's not necessarily because they didn't listen to your suspicions. PLUS, lylo and not lylo is a lot different, especially if you are unconfirmed as you generally only have 1 or 2 choices.

I don't understand you here.

I think Elias is the most pro-town, he is slipping a bit lately, but still I find him, objectively at least, about as pro-town or more pro-town than me. Where are you getting this from?

Because the closest I have seen someone call you protown, is for your pressing against me so hard as town. You saying you find yourself protown (or claiming the rest of the town finds you protown) seems redundant, and like I said, raises my paranoia.

I don't really understand what you are saying here. A few people have called me town, a few people haven't. I obviously would like to be seen as pro-town... I don't get what you are trying to say here...?

How am I doing this at all? I am asking people to teach me how you are not scum, to discuss things, to not leave me to the side and just move on. I am not taking an elitist attitude -- far from it -- I want the rest of the town to take a part in what I find to be a good case on you.

I mean the way they are responding to you, that perhaps you are wrong, and that if the town doesn't lynch me they will lose.

And I ask them to talk about the actual case, and they don't, and so I keep asking...

If people had any interest in reading my case on you, they could just look at my most recent posts in isolation. I haven't been keeping my case on you a secret...

It is only something minor, but I would call it "ease of accesibility"

So you were attacking me as being scummy for "ease of accessibility"...?

?? Such as?

before I answer this, I noticed this.

You were like "Please resummarize everything you've thought and are thinking and might have thought all game." No way.

Why?

I can't even get through my re-read/ gameanalysis (especially now ). I am not doing your pet requests, which are so demanding, before I finish my re-read.

They seem designed to give you things to find me scummy about and to waste my time.

Back to the issue at hand, they were all responses to Thok's questions.

It didn't seem like that ...

I hadn't thought about this -- I think, objectively, the people who were more responsible for a wagon disappearing were those who never voted someone -- but I don't find the initial John wagon disappearing to be that relevant or even necessarily adhering to this general principle -- I find it scummier near end of day when people piled on Occult, some even though they found John really scummy too (Vitr, for example).

Which is not me at all, but that seems to be your main point against me, right?

That was about the wagon dying, not the Occult wagon specifically. The people who jumped off piled on also. I said piling on was scummy -- I never said that starting the mislynch wagon was

not

scummy, and that is only part of my case against you.

Other players maybe shouldn't be found fault with, as townies can definitely be unsure and then they shouldn't push agendas as much. We can't assume anyone is town though -- so while we definitely should look to see if people not pushing could be done as town, we can't assume that anyone's not pushing means they are town -- scum definitely have an incentive to get "swept away" and stop busing.

I think this was one.

Huh? You are making very little sense in this post, to me.

This is going out on a huge limb for me, but if VitaminR continues to look bad on re-read, I guess I could theoretically support a VitaminR lynch over an IH lynch, even though an IH lynch would be better.

If Guardian starts pushing this, and VitR is lynched while his vote is still on me, I'm going to be pissed.

Why? Huh? ...

Glork described it to me as you busing your scum partner day one and then lurking to victory, and I skimmed the game and do not disagree with his analysis.

wtf?

NO U... ....

You did hammer late, but you were back and forth all day. You just mentioned the double standard -- in the past few posts you were just saying that it was in defense of John, not mentioning anything about a double standard. If you thought John was scum, and Occult was scummy for only defending John, then you try and lynch John first.

If you would go back and look, he didn't say thats why, but he did say he got too focused. Which implies he was attacking him for defending him, and when other things rose up, it probably felt better and was easier to lynch Occult.

He said that was why

just now

. And you hit the nail on the head -- he went for Occult because it was easy, not because it was right. Opportunism = scummy.

That is why day two I initally wanted YB lynched first, and only changed because

I could see YB being town (Occult defended him, after all)

and IH being scum and just following Vitr and leading a wagon on a townie, without YB being his partner.

Bolding mine.
Do you believe that all townies are always right?

No, definitely not. In no way. That was a parenthetical reference, not the main point.

That is why day two I initally wanted YB lynched first, and only changed because I could see YB being town (Occult defended him, after all) and IH being scum and just following Vitr and leading a wagon on a townie, without YB being his partner.

Ctrl+Z?

Heh.

Also i have yet to see a Skruffs case from you.

I am not interested in lynching him right now. I have only so much time to play these games, and I will have even less in two days when I get back to school. I am not going to waste it making cases on my #4 targets. I have talked about why he was scummy over the course of the game, but do not intend to at the moment.

Also Guardian, you do know the deadline inconsistency I've continually talked about is day 3

not day 4

right?

obv obv. If I accidentally said day 4, my bad.


IH, this post you really didn't make much sense, at least to me, and where you did it was about my behavior end of day 3 which I have addressed fairly completely, and I don't want to keep going back and forth and back and forth there. I feel like you are just whatever stuff at me you can in response You do seem to be trying to defend VitaminR in a roundabout way, though, and the bits of logic I thought I understood didn't make sense, like you defending VitaminR because he did what was easier...

I am so annoyed right now. I was making headway, and actually was to a point where I was considering MoS -- Vitr -- Romanus/Skruffs as a posibility

if

IH is not scum.

Does that at least mean you'd support a MoS lynch?

. I don't

want

to, but I need to go back and finish the damn re-read to be sure.

My thoughts up to page 22 were something like "well, I still think IH is scum, but if he is not then MoS could actually be scum, and Vitr still looks scummy, and Romanus would round that group out nicely." So I don't

think

I want to support a MoS lynch right now, unless IH is lynched and comes up town. IH scum would imply Tony and MoS town to me, and I think IH scum is most likely.

IH town, on the other hand, would set up MoS scum as a nice option, and I would look at Tony with much more scrutiny.

Also, Vitr, do you support a MoS lynch, and have you so far today? I remember you defending MoS somewhere in those pages, or being linked, and I wanted to check on that when I finished, but I never finished and I lost my hour of work....

FYI: I don't keep notes on games as town, I leave the notes in the thread for all to see -- so I don't remember much of my reasoning, just my conclusions.

[Guardian]

Guardian, do you realize how many times you've

said

that I am scummy, bu every time you reread or analyze or actually ptu thought into it, you say that I am acting pro-town/ You have wishy washed back and forth over what you think of my alignment over and over again. It's like you think I'm tonw, but you WANT me to be scum. UI don't get it.

I find you scummy, but there are always who are more scummy than you. I am sure that is frustrating, and like I said maybe it comes off worse than it actually is.

I think I have provided some of my reasons for finding you scummy, and I don't want to make a case and look for you to be scummy because I think there are better people to make cases on at this time.

I don't want you lynched any time soon, there are better candidates than you -- but if it came down to you and Elias, or you and Thok, at this point I would obviously choose to vote you.

So in comparison to other players, you are in the bottom half almost and less scummy than like 50% of other players -- but I still find some of your actions suspect and do not find you as "very likely town".

Yay extended deadline. Let's lynch OMAN.

In a sentence, why?

[Guardian]

BTW, if MoS doesn't come through tomorrow (or sometime else), from a pragmatic standpoint, I concede that I don't see how we can get out of lynching him....



And if he is scum, that would make IH look much better to me, so maybe it will work out.

I still feel it is much more likely for IH to be scum and MoS town than vice versa though -- just with nothing in MoS's role, and him acting scummy independently, I think lynching him would probably be the best decision than trying to lynch an active player and leaving a role with no active player in it.

MoS, come through...

[Guardian]

Again I am behind in this game. I'm trying hard to stay objective, but it pisses me off when Guardian has a page long post with several quotes with 2 or less words.

Know what pisses me off? When people get annoyed by back and forth discussion and clarification, and when they say they are going contribute and never, ever get around to it....

Seriously, there were comments like 5 pages ago that I have been waiting for you to address, and you post every other day saying you will come and address them, and all we get is this.

[Guardian]

Know what pisses me off? When people get annoyed by back and forth discussion and clarification, and when they say they are going contribute and never, ever get around to it....

Seriously, there were comments like 5 pages ago that I have been waiting for you to address, and you post every other day saying you will come and address them, and all we get is this.

I don't see the need to defend myself like you do. I think you're scum and you can keep waiting. If I ever do get around to posting, it will only be a recap of everything I have already stated.

??? How am I defending myself? Everyone is waiting on you, not just me -- including Thok -- so is he scum too now, and can wait!?

And if you get around to posting, you won't take in any new information? Explain how these attitudes are pro-town.

FOS: Tony

[Guardian]

Just wondering Guardian, if Tony were to come up scum, considering my actions on day 2, what would you think that would indicate about me?

It would make you look much better in my eyes.

I think there is likely to be at least one scum between the two of you, and your interactions with him do not feel like distancing, so I would guess at this point that there is exactly one scum between the two of you.

Tony is acting quite suspicious lately, but it pales in comparison to your scumminess.

So, him showing up scum would make me think you were more likely to be town, but I think of the two of you you are still much more likely to be scum.

Conversely, him showing up town would make me even more sure that you are scum.


@Tony, seriously, like Thok said in no way was I twisting your words. Also, with the interactions between myself and IH, how can you see me as scummier? What are your thoughts on IH? You are definitely slipping in my book.

[Guardian]

MoS, I empathize, as I have had trouble re-reading... but I remember what went on at least, and have re-read half -- you replaced in and never read... Bad luck with being busy .

Guys, I don't see how we can not lynch his role. Like, I would much prefer for IH to be dead, but MoS's role was quite scummy and with no player filling it, lynching him is a good idea, I think.

The only reason I am not voting him right now is that VitR and Oman, two of my would-be top four are voting him.... Eh, I was wrong with that earlier with John (he turned out to be scum), so I guess voting here is right.

unvote: IH vote: MoS

.

If people think we can somehow get out of lynching MoS and lynch Vitr or IH instead, I'm all ears.... But that just doesn't make sense to me.

[Guardian]

Just occurred to me -- Elias, could you do an off the top of your head list, with a few reasons next to the names, of most scummy to least?

One thing that slightly irks me -- I have no clear idea of who you find town-like -- which I think is significant in nightless (the scum can't kill people we all find town-like, so we should have it out there in the open).

I have a somewhat good idea of who you find most scummy, but after a top one or two people, it all blends together.

sure thinkg guardian. I cant get to it right now, though, I'll do it tonight or tomorrow.

Yeah so...

I actually agree with Tony. This back and forth between IH and Guardian with these massive posts really seems unnecessary to me, and it's really discouraging to any possible replacements.

So let me get this straight -- you agree with Tony that IH and I should stop debating, and yet you, like Tony, don't get around to doing what you promised you would, and post very little content?


Tony, I'd respond to your two previous posts but... it is SO obvious how I am not twisting your words, and you have contradicted yourself. What do you mean trying to align myself with anyone? I wanted to hear what you thought about IH/me, and instead of replying to me or Thok you responded with rather ridiculous questions.

I ask you again, and I want you to respond: What are your thoughts about IH? Right now, what do you think about IH? Would you support an IH lynch?

Really, just like Elias, I know you find me scummy (like I know Elias has one or two top suspects), and know pretty much nothing else about your current suspicions. Give me some insight.

[Guardian]

MoS -- I explicitly try

not

to prioritize games based on alignment, so that strikes me as very WIFOM.

Also, what do you suggest we do with deadline in five days? Let your role sit alive with no one in it?

Lastly, why analyze yourself? You know your role, and claim that it is town -- so why are you analyzing yourself, and moreover, why are you labeling yourself as scum (through 2.5 pages)?


Tony, if you do everything Thok asked, you had better answer my questions about IH.

[Guardian]

Tony, if you do everything Thok asked, you had better answer my questions about IH.

nope

Why!? What the hell!

Elias, no problem... just

do

get around to it...

[Guardian]

Oh great. I thought MoS was scum when I was reading the game. Damnit.

vote:Guardian

I don't see how voting me logically follows from reading the game thinking MoS was scum....

I have gotten used to your incredibly bad arguments from time to time, but this takes the cake.

Also, why did you think MoS was scum? You read the game without reading your role? Or you read the game

after

reading your role?

I'm looking for three to join me for a second accurate lynch of scum in this game.

Um no. I have no idea what you are basing this off of, and you are wrong. What convinced you? Tony's arguments? .

TonyMoonshine could be wishy-washy here, so I may need four. Any volunteers?

Why? And no.

And what do you think of IH? Or are you also unwilling to comment on him?

[Guardian]

If MoS isn't scum than Guardian must be. I got MoS's role, so I know that he was a townie.

Firstly, why is this true, at all, whatsoever????

Secondly, even if somehow you showed an inverse relationship, why do we have any reason at all to believe you are town? Mustafa was quite scummy.

And MoS didn't help that much. And you are acting odd too.


You have contributed almost 0 for someone who claims to have read the game. What are your thoughts on people besides me? Why do you think I'm scum?

Are you somehow actually a townie and reading me the opposite way of my real alignment yet again?

[Guardian]

I look forward to reading this "case". I use quotations as I have had experience with Adel's "cases" in the past.... Now that I think she is likely scum her logic is liable to reach levels of convolution never before imagined.

[Guardian]

Anyone else a bit uncomfortable with how Elias and Guardian seem to be taking the charge on pushing Adel when they stayed away from the MoStafa wagon all day?

I said if MoS couldn't contribute we basically had to lynch him. You can read back through my posts -- this is me actualizing that.

I don't see how it makes sense to lynch any role but mustafa's with no content from that role at all today and that role being so scummy.

I'd

rather

be lynching IH, but imo it makes no sense to do so when we have another scummy (albeit not AS scummy) role and that role isn't capable of participating. Adel's contributions so far have given me no reason to think that her role isn't scum.

Skruffs, no bus here -- I hope mustafa is scum, but I don't know for sure . I'd rather lynch IH -- I am much less sure about mustafa, it just seems that it has to be done.

[Guardian]

I look forward to reading this "case". I use quotations as I have had experience with Adel's "cases" in the past.... Now that I think she is likely scum her logic is liable to reach levels of convolution never before imagined.

She may be town -- WIFOM and bad logic are not necessarily scum tells for Adel, sadly.

However, I do think she is scum, as she has provided no case against me with two days to deadline and has not provided much if any reasoning after replacing in, even though she claims to have read the game. Also, mustafa's actions...

[Guardian]

IH, who are your main suspects right now? It is lost in the clutter for me. You are not voting -- why? Do you intend to vote before end of day? If so, for who?

Elias, also, do you intend to vote before end of day? Or are you not willing to vote for Adel for this promised case?

[Guardian]

Wow... Thok has asked the right questions, please answer them... and what do you think about other players and why, (including IH), and lastly... wow you are acting so anti-town right now.

Adel is a good candidate, and IH I think is still better than you, and I could see Adel being scum with you, but I am tempted to try and start a last minute wagon on you because you are so scummy right now...

[Guardian]

Hm. I would have at least liked to hear something from Adel, that is a shame, and a bit surprising . I'd rather have been lynching IH .

Tony, you are rising quickly on my scumlist. Explain all the things you were supposed to explain

before

lynching Adel, and then try and explain what possibly motivated you to move off of me and on to Adel.

My thoughts? You are scum and wanted to make sure the lynch of a townie happened.

Also, seeing as you have constantly and consistently thought I was scummiest, what prompted you to move on to Adel?

for the record: I read Tony's play, and I retract that IH and Tony wouldn't make sense together -- Tony found IH so scummy day one/two, and now refuses to comment on him. I don't like that one bit.

I was completely decided that I was going to continue pushing the IH case today, but I am beginning to think that Tony might make more sense....

Tony, you have some explaining to do.

vote: Tony

[Guardian]

Yeah, I don't want a speed lynch of Tony by any means -- I want to hear from him, but it would be absolutely crucial if we hit scum today.

I would like to note that my initial game read of IH, Vitr, Skruffs has not yet been proved to be wrong... I am beginning to doubt that it is completely right (Skruffs has started playing much more reasonably), but I am definitely still highly wary of VitaminR and, of course, IH.

[Guardian]

Yeah -- Oman said he needed replacing, right?

I need to finish my re-read (no promises as to when, I'm quite busy), but when I read through 23 pages and looked for what you said to look for that was a legit case on Romanus, Thok, I hardly saw any of it.

Your reasons and things I was supposed to look for made me think Romanus was less scummy when I read through, because I didn't find them.


BTW, the reason I mention the IH-Tony possibility, is because that is something of a bad mark for Tony, for me -- IH being scum wouldn't necessarily rule out Tony being scum, as I'd though, and that means for me that pursuing Tony makes sense even if I am also right about IH.

[Guardian]

Which post number (of your posts, or of the in-game posts) is it?

[Guardian]

A few notes:
Guardian - you've previously used Aimee being town as a reason to be suspicious of other players. Adele was town - what does this mean about her?

iirc, I mentioned Aimee had attacked mustafa, and decided to look at her reasons and mustafa's behavior because it was confirmed that Aimee was genuinely suspicious of him. That =/= assuming mustafa was scum because Aimee was suspicious of him.

Also, even if I thought that, I have a bad history with Adel. This makes four games with her in it where she was almost certain that my alignment was the opposite of what it was. In one of those games, even though I knew she was a vigilante, I told my mafia partners to keep her alive because her reads were so bad. So even if in general pro-town players being suspicious of someone means they are likely scum (which I disagree with), it does not, at all, in my experience, apply to Adel.

secondly, all fivte townies will need to vote correctly to lynch scum today, if they dont bus each other.

True... Why did you feel the need to point this out?

I'm curious why you are suspicious of tony's hammer on adel when you yourself was on her - you could have moved your vote atany time., and you don't have 'i was on vacation' as an excuse this time. Are you solely responsible? No. I myself said she almost claimed to be bussing.

I am suspicious of Tony's hammer because he expressed no suspicion of Adel, and Adel was trying to promote a me-wagon, Tony's main suspect.

Hammering Adel was not internally consistent with Tony's thinking.

Oman's good followed by ask to be replaced - when he is ative in other games - is a huge red beacon that guardian is ignoring.

How am I ignoring it? I said that he does need to replace, that I need to finish my re-read, and that I didn't find Romanus's play through 23 to be scummy.

Why is it a huge red beacon to you, Skruffs?

guardidani - lastly - how was i unresonable before?

You moved your vote around a lot for poor logic, and you were over-defensive, mainly.

Tony, you have some explaining to do.

No.

How about you explain why Adel was voting you.

Because she thought I was scum, for some reason, that assumed that if she was town I was scum, that she never disclosed to us. Why do you want me to explain it.

And wtf with you never explaining things seriously.

Guardian : 2/3 townie lynches, not scum's

To be fair, I personally was only responsible for the Adel lynch, and I think she obviously had to go, and had a good chance of being scum. And YB was my #2 suspect as I clearly stated after replacing in, so that isn't quite fair either.

I'd like to hear Tony explain his hammer. At first glance, it seems a bit too obvious, though.

Why are you defending Tony with WIFOM?

I'm somewhat more suspicious of IH putting on the fourth vote after interrogating Elias about possibly doing so.

Yeah, imo IH was quite hypocritical about the Adel wagon, he questioned me for not voting Adel and seemed to be trying to pressure me into voting her, and then never voted Adel himself.



My main suspects for today are Tony and IH, with VitaminR as a backround possibility. MoS being town is very consistent with IH being scum, for me. And Tony's hammer, for reasons I mentioned above, was very suspect.

Elias keeps sounding a bit more scummy to me, but I still am fairly sure I don't want to see him lynched. Thok I don't have an interest in lynching, his play has been helpful to the town and I feel like he is really trying to scum hunt. Oman I don't think I want to see lynched at this point, I don't think the case on him is that strong at all. And like I said, Skruffs play is suspect, but I don't think find him scummier than the three I indicated.

[Guardian]

I'm somewhat more suspicious of IH putting on the fourth vote after interrogating Elias about possibly doing so.

Yeah, imo IH was quite hypocritical about the Adel wagon, he questioned me for not voting Adel and seemed to be trying to pressure me into voting her, and then never voted Adel himself.

Huh? Seriously, huh?

Yeah, I should look at the wagon results better and not post in a hurry. I think I got confused as with me it was MoS and with Elias it was Adel, and IH never voted for MoS. Still, lame slipup, my fault.


I didn't like how IH tried to pressure me into voting MoS though, as I noted earlier .

Noting that, his interrogating me and Elias seem to be similar, not different -- he asked us both about voting MoS/Adel, and then voted Adel.

[Guardian]

Also, even if I thought that, I have a bad history with Adel. This makes four games with her in it where she was almost certain that my alignment was the opposite of what it was. In one of those games, even though I knew she was a vigilante, I told my mafia partners to keep her alive because her reads were so bad. So even if in general pro-town players being suspicious of someone means they are likely scum (which I disagree with), it does not, at all, in my experience, apply to Adel.

THis would have been really good to take into consideration YESTERDAY, Guardian, before ADel was lynched. Knowing her history of bad reads regarding you, why did you not attempt to bring this up?

Um, I definitely brought this up:

Are you somehow actually a townie and reading me the opposite way of my real alignment yet again?

I look forward to reading this "case". I use quotations as I have had experience with Adel's "cases" in the past.... Now that I think she is likely scum her logic is liable to reach levels of convolution never before imagined.

She may be town -- WIFOM and bad logic are not necessarily scum tells for Adel, sadly.

However, I do think she is scum, as she has provided no case against me with two days to deadline and has not provided much if any reasoning after replacing in, even though she claims to have read the game. Also, mustafa's actions...

Instead waiting until after she was lynched to disclose that you and her have 'bad blood'? That was, again, very selfish of you, game-wise, to help lynch someone that through your own experience is likely town with bad reads only because you don't like playing with them, when we are two from lylo.

There is no bad blood. I love Adel. Just, she is usually very wrong about my alignment, and I thought mustafa was scummy and with Adel and MoS lurking and not changing my opinion, she seemed like she had to be the play.

secondly, all fivte townies will need to vote correctly to lynch scum today, if they dont bus each other.

True... Why did you feel the need to point this out?

I believe in bringing to the attention of everyone possible scenarios.

So you think it is a good move to tell all the scum that they probably shouldn't bus today because the townies need to get it perfect to lynch scum?

Oman's good followed by ask to be replaced - when he is ative in other games - is a huge red beacon that guardian is ignoring.

How am I ignoring it? I said that he does need to replace, that I need to finish my re-read, and that I didn't find Romanus's play through 23 to be scummy.

Why is it a huge red beacon to you, Skruffs?

Because he got caught and backed out of the game. All you really did was dismiss it, which is interesting.

Where do you see a causal connection between him dropping and him coming under pressure -- I thought he said he dropped because he couldn't keep up with re-reading this game.

Also, even if he was dropping because of pressure, why was this a pro-town tell when NAR dropped, and now is a "huge red beacon" when Oman drops???

guardidani - lastly - how was i unresonable before?

You moved your vote around a lot for poor logic, and you were over-defensive, mainly.

I don't think I agree. What bad logic / defensive?

When I re-read the first 8 pages and put you in the middle of all the players and you responded as if I was calling for your head.

Was calling out what happened to Occult/john bad logic? Please explain fully here, I prefer not to be dismissed as a bad player when I'm not.

No, that was good logic or busing. Your vote hopping and reasons that sometimes don't make sense to me is what I'm calling bad logic.

Guardian : 2/3 townie lynches, not scum's

To be fair, I personally was only responsible for the Adel lynch, and I think she obviously had to go, and had a good chance of being scum. And YB was my #2 suspect as I clearly stated after replacing in, so that isn't quite fair either.

SO you didn't vote john/yb because he was your number two suspect. This seems familiar. Isn't that exactly why you allowed Aimee to be lynched, because, even though you were sure she was town, she got lynched because you wouldn't vote for your #2 suspect of that day? Are you starting to realize that this method of playing nightless, of only voting for your #1 suspect, ISN'T WORKING TOO WELL?

With regards to John, it was very obvious I supported his lynch and he got lynched and was scum, so that worked well.

I am not that suspicious of Oman still, and he very well could be town, and Aimee would have been around as a red herring and if she was scum then people would have tried to make a connection to me, so I think staying on IH worked out OK -- why should I have to change my vote to a #2 when one other person could change their vote? Like, it seems to me that everyone is like "omg guardian doesn't #2 vote day 3" and is failing to realize that others didn't do that too.

And people keep ignoring that I agree it isn't obvious one way or the other, and that I had limited time to make the decision.

Yesterday, I moved off my main suspect, IH, to vote MoStafa/Adel, and a townie got lynched. That worked quite poorly.

So no, I completely disagree here -- me staying on my #1 suspect has provided a mix of positive/negative (and neutral results if Oman is town) results for the town, and me moving off my #1 suspect has provided negative (neutral if IH is town, which I really, really doubt) results for the town.

You make me think a lot with your posts, and this time, even though I disagree with you, you've helped me realize that me moving off my #1 suspect is actually really bad for us.

unvote vote: IH

.

I think he is scum and should be lynched -- if you want direction to my reasons/case just ask... they are fairly well shown in most of my recent posts.

--

Post 1237 makes me sad.

Why? You don't want your scum buddy lynched?

for the record: I read Tony's play, and I retract that IH and Tony wouldn't make sense together -- Tony found IH so scummy day one/two, and now refuses to comment on him. I don't like that one bit.

FoS:Guardian

Yeah, well, I don't. You asked me specifically what Tony's alignment would mean, and I began to wonder if my initial read was correct. I tried to get a read from Tony on this, and he refuses to communicate with me. So yeah, I have changed my opinion, why is that suspicious?

I would like to note that my initial game read of IH, Vitr, Skruffs has not yet been proved to be wrong... I am beginning to doubt that it is completely right (Skruffs has started playing much more reasonably), but I am definitely still highly wary of VitaminR and, of course, IH.

Interesting. I never saw a case on Skruffs. When I start pressing it (yesterday) this post comes up.

Yeah, this post, where I say that Skruffs has been playing much more reasonably and that I am not interested in lynching him today. Why would I provide a case on Skruffs when I don't want him lynched today, and probably not tomorrow either?

BTW, the reason I mention the IH-Tony possibility, is because that is something of a bad mark for Tony, for me -- IH being scum wouldn't necessarily rule out Tony being scum, as I'd though, and that means for me that pursuing Tony makes sense even if I am also right about IH.

Exactly as I feared. Guardian has oppened up the possibility to try and get a tony lynch AND me. So if we are in lylo, Guardian could possibly be bussing.

I think there are legitimate reasons to think Tony is scum, and that he could be scum with you. It doesn't surprise me that you "feared" it. I think you two are possible, and almost

probable

, scum buddies.

This is going slightly out on a limb btw.

mmm...

No.

How about you explain why Adel was voting you.

Horrible reasoning.

Telling Tony to shape up while spending most of your post throwing suspicion on to me?

I agree with Skruffs post 1257

What part? You agree that the questions should be asked? Explain what you are doing here other than agreeing with Skruffs .

[Guardian]

THat aside, Thok, please explain what you are talking about re: vitr, guardian, ih, and adel. I can't seem to follow, but I want to.

VitR made a comment worrying about IH's fourth vote on the Adel/MOS/mustafa wagon. Guardian then proceeded to claim that IH was scummy for not voting Adel/MOS/mustafa while pressuring Guardian to do so (which is both not true and completely ignores what VitR said). In order for Guardian's comment to make sense, he had to miss what happened with the wagon and also had to misread VitaminR's comment.

Yup. I missed the "putting on the fourth vote after", as that was consistent with what I thought had happened.

The first of those (Guardian missing what happened to the wagon) isn't that scummy, as I could see where the mistake happens. But I have a harder time seeing Guardian misreading VitR's comment and Guardian's response feels like he's more interested in pushing an IH wagon going then actually paying attention to what VitR is saying.

Well, I thought IH didn't place the vote, so I guess I ignored it when VitaminR said that that was what happened. I got confused because with me it was MoS and with Elias it was Adel, and IH never voted for MoS.

Also, admittedly, I am very interested in pushing an IH wagon, whatever the means, because I think he's scum.

[Guardian]

Guardian,
I am not convinced that he OR you is town OR scum, so, theoretically, if we were to cede and vote IH and he turned out to be town and it turned out that you were pushing for a townie at the expense of everything else for most of the game...
I'm asking if you would be willing to put your money where your mouth is. If we lynch IH and he's town, would you be willing to be lynched the next day? Is *that* how sure you are that he is scum? I am not indicating if this should happen, but I am curious if you are THAT sure of IH being scum that you are willing to potentially LOSE the game over it?

That is a stupid scenario, and one that Thok brought up earlier as something scum might try and pull, so I really don't like how you are suggesting it.

However, I am quite sure IH is scum -- and I would be willing to potentially LOSE the game over it -- if we lynch someone other than IH today and they end up not scum, I will very likely vote IH early tomorrow (at lylo -- and if IH is not scum then at that point the scum could quicklynch him to win).

For my own point I think Oman is the correct target for today, he swung in, goofed, and is attempting to swing out. Very similar to what happened with John, day one, resulting in him being replaced by YB. Then again, that's what happened with NAR, too, so maybe that's not a good theory.

Yeah... And with NAR, you called it a town tell. You are being very selectively inconsistent here.

Also, looking at it in that line, am putting Thok up on the list only because his role has been replaced four or five times. Thok himself is acting very pro-town, but to be honest that's the best way for scum to act in a nightless.

Erm, so Thok is scum... because he has been replaced many times? And NAR is town... because he got replaced?

???

One of the most vote-happy wagoners should be lynched today just to avoid a potential mislynch tomorrow.

How about we lynch scum?

---

I don't think IH is scum, based on what I've seen so far. Though, lynching either Guardian or IH, in my opinion, would give us a lot of info. On the other hand, I've been suspicious of Oman/Romanus all game, and would like to see him lynched.

Yeah, I need to finish re-reading at some point if I ever get non-busy, but I am not seeing the case on Romanus. That role has been wrong vs. me all game, but that seems to be all there is against it.

IH, on the other hand....

---

I'm somewhat more suspicious of IH putting on the fourth vote after interrogating Elias about possibly doing so.

......would you like to read my posts towards Elias before stating as such? Particuarly the last two or three directed at him.

The bit where you say it is just "something of note?" That mostly struck me as strange.

I'd have expected you to a bit more understanding of Elias' actions, given your own regarding MoS and Adel.

It seemed to me to be a bit like you were trying to get Elias along while also setting up an argument against him later.

Yeah, he did this with Elias and me. I was thinking he was trying to get us to vote (me to hammer, actually) while not voting, and while he did end up voting Adel in the end, his finding us suspicious for not voting someone who turned up town is suspect...

For today, I would not support a Thok, Guardian, Elias or Skruffs lynch. I'm torn on Tony (he seems too obviously stubborn). I'd prefer an IH lynch, but I could go for an Oman wagon.

I agree with the not-lynchable, I obviously prefer an IH lynch, I would not be disappointed if a Tony lynch happened, I don't see an Oman lynch, and I could also see a VitaminR lynch as being worthwhile, but not above Tony or IH .

IH really needs to be lynched today.

---

Why? You don't want your scum buddy lynched?

....It was a hammer on adel. Idiot. Tony ended the day effectively putting us in lylo.

Nice ad hom attack, whoever it is directed at.... I am not an idiot, and my leading question and suspcions are not at all unfounded.

I find ad hom/being mean scummy -- town have no reason to do it. This is a small pebble on top of my mountain of suspicion on you.

Yeah, well, I don't. You asked me specifically what Tony's alignment would mean, and I began to wonder if my initial read was correct. I tried to get a read from Tony on this, and he refuses to communicate with me. So yeah, I have changed my opinion, why is that suspicious?

I don't like your backtrack personally.

It is so ridiculous how earlier you asked me to point to one place where I'd changed my opinion in this game (as if I never had, and as if keeping the same opinion was scummy) and now you attack me for changing my opinion.

IH is so clearly scum guys.

Telling Tony to shape up while spending most of your post throwing suspicion on to me?

No. Horrible reasoning means it's suspicious.

After spending all of day 2 saying I was trying to get tony lynched

Yeah -- what ever happened to that, and to Tony's suspicions of you? They seem to have disappeared into thin air.

Guardian when I say I agree with the post, I think it's good. I also think it's not wrong. Therefore I concur with it. I agree with it.

Would you like a definition?

Would you like to not be a sarcastic jerk? His post was mostly questions, and asking for clarifications -- and of the few statements he made, not all were good/agreeable with imo.

I wanted you to go back and quote, or at least reference, exactly what statements he makes that you agree with, to demonstrate that you weren't just blatantly buddying up to Skruffs.

I think you will have a hard time pulling out more than a few sentences of affirmative statement in his post that you can say "you agree with" -- I think you said you agreed just so you could say you agreed -- blatant buddying.


More votes for IH-scum please.

---

My reasons for lynching Adel were mostly selfish. I wish to get this game over ASAP so I have more time for other things. I wasn't following the vote count until Mod posted last update. I realized I could hammer, but I didn't know how shitty of a spot it would put the town in. Before you ask, I would do it all over again.

That's really bad play, if you are town. Why would you do it all over again?

Anyway, I've had a town vibe for IH ever since he did his reread. He put a lot of work into it and well, I just think he's town. Same with Thok. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I still think Guardian is Scum.

What? So my pbpa of day one didn't take effort!?!? You are blatantly being inconsistent here.

And, I think others are starting to see that now. I wasn't able to my articulate my case against him and became frustrated.

No, you weren't able to articulate your case because there isn't one, at least not a reasonable one.

I think this could be very simple. We just need to look at who voted who and work with that. I think someone posted a recap of who voted who. That should clear at least a couple people and we can let them lead.

What are your thoughts on these voting histories? Read back a few posts -- what conclusions do you draw from them?

I don't want to unvote IH by any means, but Tony does not seem like a bad second option. But IH is the play. IH should be lynched.

[Guardian]

However, I am quite sure IH is scum -- and I would be willing to potentially LOSE the game over it -- if we lynch someone other than IH today and they end up not scum, I will very likely vote IH early tomorrow (at lylo -- and if IH is not scum then at that point the scum could quicklynch him to win).

What?

FOS Guardian

. This can't be a protown point of view. Your case against IH isn't strong enough to justify voting him immediately out of lynch or lose.

No -- it is. I don't get how people are still not seeing this, but IH is almost surely scum. His play has not been pro-town in the slightest, very few of his actions could I see as having pro-town motives... if we don't lynch IH today and lynch a townie instead, I will maybe wait a little bit tomorrow, but I think that forcing the issue is appropriate -- IH is scum, and needs to be lynched.

[Guardian]

What?

FOS Guardian

. This can't be a protown point of view. Your case against IH isn't strong enough to justify voting him immediately out of lynch or lose.

No -- it is. I don't get how people are still not seeing this, but IH is almost surely scum. His play has not been pro-town in the slightest, very few of his actions could I see as having pro-town motives... if we don't lynch IH today and lynch a townie instead, I will maybe wait a little bit tomorrow, but I think that forcing the issue is appropriate -- IH is scum, and needs to be lynched.

You're basically saying that town has to resolve the you-IH dilemma in the near future. Except that if you are town, there is a significant chance that the Guardian-IH dilemma is a false dilemma, and doesn't need to be resolved.

I believe that the chance of IH being town is insignificant; in my mind, there is not a significant chance that he is town, at this point.

If you want IH lynched, stop trying to claim that every single comment by IH is him trying to twist words and denigrate you, since at this point you sound like the boy who cried wolf about IH. What do you feel are your three strongest points about IH?

At least you are trying to see my POV. If I had to narrow why he is scummy down to three things...

1) His voting record on all of the wagons except Aimee's. He led a townie lynch on Occult. He hopped onto John only after I pointed out his seeming reluctance to do so. Lastly, he tried to pressure me and Elias into voting Adel, and then hopped on only when it was pretty obvious that no one would be blamed for lynching her.

2) Again, behavior with John, and the fact that IH-scum makes sense with my other top candidates for scum based on his interactions with them (my read of the game would drastically change if IH is somehow not scum).

3) The fact that IH, in responding to my and others' posts, rarely adequately answers questions -- I feel like he is always typing answers to be typing answers, and that his responses are just covering up for scummy play. So much of what comes from IH feels contrived and/or doesn't make sense.

[Guardian]

The only really good point you have there is the 1st.

What do you mean by this? Is the first a "really good point" and the others are just "good points"? Or is the first really a "good point..." and the others you disagree with?

......Please show me an example where I have not adequately answered a question from you Guardian. I have seen this statement from you repeatedly, but never a specific example.

Sure thing, I will show how the post of yours immediately before this I feel qualifies admirably as an example of your very contrived logic.

Please point out how my case on occult was crap, and how it was scummy to lead a wagon like that.

When have I ever said that it was?

I could see how my arguments about you and Elias could be percieved as scummy, especially since they would only make sense if Adel was scum. If Adel had come up scum, I would have brought them up again, aka something of note.

Mmm. Yeah, it sure seemed like you were trying to get us to vote a townie while hanging back (though you eventually did vote Adel when she was so scummy that no one would be blamed for lynching her).

They meant nothing without confirmation of Adel's alignment, and I figured it out to be brought up before the lynch. (I kind of feel like I've inadvertantly been ignoring this)

???

---

As promised, in the following post I will demonstrate how IH's

first previous post

is contrived and full of bad reasoning, with him not fully responding to me:

Nice ad hom attack, whoever it is directed at.... I am not an idiot, and my leading question and suspcions are not at all unfounded.

I find ad hom/being mean scummy -- town have no reason to do it. This is a small pebble on top of my mountain of suspicion on you.

Yeah. My patience was wearing thin yesterday.

I don't understand why you think Ad Hom is scummy though. Please let me know why scum would be more frustrated to get their point across (which is all ad hom really does).

I doubt many players would actually calculate it's use as a demeaning tactic.

I disagree. Scum have great incentive to cause frustration and depredation of arguments, trying to get people to ignore logic and go with gut. This has happened to me in numerous occasions, notably 24 mafia, where the scum group kept calling me "an idiot" when I had them nailed, and got the town to believe them.

So, you saying that scum would never do this and that it isn't scummy seems contrived to me.

It is so ridiculous how earlier you asked me to point to one place where I'd changed my opinion in this game (as if I never had, and as if keeping the same opinion was scummy) and now you attack me for changing my opinion.

Errr, no pretty much the whole game I've been pushing against your inconsistency.

There is a huge difference between finding scummy things, and completely ignoring where I change or retract arguments. You are doing the latter, and it is annoying, and scummy as hell.

Show me where you have retracted an argument XD

Then why ask this question, and act like I never had.....?

You are attacking me from both sides.

Yeah -- what ever happened to that, and to Tony's suspicions of you? They seem to have disappeared into thin air.

pretty sure they're still there, but all of my responses seem to be dealing with you.

"dealing with me"? You said earlier you find Tony scummier than me -- so why aren't more of your posts directed at him?

This seems like a BS excuse to me.

Would you like to not be a sarcastic jerk? His post was mostly questions, and asking for clarifications -- and of the few statements he made, not all were good/agreeable with imo.

Just wondering why you couldn't figure out that "I agree with his post" means, well, I agree with it. It's agreeable.

This is what I mean when I say you are just typing responses for the sake of typing responses. These words don't mean anything nor do they respond to my points.

THis would have been really good to take into consideration YESTERDAY, Guardian, before ADel was lynched. Knowing her history of bad reads regarding you, why did you not attempt to bring this up? Instead waiting until after she was lynched to disclose that you and her have 'bad blood'? That was, again, very selfish of you, game-wise, to help lynch someone that through your own experience is likely town with bad reads only because you don't like playing with them, when we are two from lylo.

I agree with this. Why did you wait until today when Adel was lynched to bring this up? You left a valuable peice of metagaming info out

Yeah, I again say -- how are you doing anything but agreeing with Skruffs for the sake of agreeing with him? As I pointed out, I

definitely

brought this up yesterday -- why do you agree that I didn't?

I believe in bringing to the attention of everyone possible scenarios.

I do not object to this, as I do the same thing. Alot.

This again I take issue with. I don't see how it makes any sense to basically tell the scum not to bus today, as Skruffs did -- and here you are, saying that you highly support this play.

Because he got caught and backed out of the game. All you really did was dismiss it, which is interesting.

^^^

"^^^"? That's not doing anything for me to make me understand why you are supporting Skruffs's double standard on how NAR replacing was a town tell and Oman replacing was a scum tell.

You are buddying or defending Skruffs here definitely, and all your responses so far are contrived and make little sense.

I don't think I agree. What bad logic / defensive?Was calling out what happened to Occult/john bad logic? Please explain fully here, I prefer not to be dismissed as a bad player when I'm not.

Same here. I agree with this. I never saw a proper case layed out on Skruffs. It was just "Skruffs is being unreasonable. Lynch plz, but let's lynch IH first. Lynch PLz."

Again, this seems like BS to me. I explained how Skruffs was being defensive and using bad logic. And you say you "agree with Skruffs" Skruffs

did not take a stand here, he asked a question

. And yet you agree with it?? This is the second or third time in this post he asks a prodding question and you "agree with it". How does you

agreeing with a question

make any sense, except as buddying scum?

SO you didn't vote john/yb because he was your number two suspect. This seems familiar. Isn't that exactly why you allowed Aimee to be lynched, because, even though you were sure she was town, she got lynched because you wouldn't vote for your #2 suspect of that day? Are you starting to realize that this method of playing nightless, of only voting for your #1 suspect, ISN'T WORKING TOO WELL?

This as well. I have brought up similar points to this.

This is the first thing that is semi-legitimate, though I have responded to this and believe that the town has benefited more when I've stuck to my guns rather than when yesterday when I voted my #2 choice.

So see I agree with his post.

To me, this seems like you are agreeing with faulty logic, and agreeing with questions -- what does it even mean to agree with a question?? This makes no sense.

I am sure you will twist this by saying "OH EM GEE IH, YOU R MEAN, SCUM, CAN WE LYNCH HIM!?!"

And this part, you just predict that I am going to call you out for the bad reasoning expressed in your post. Just because you knew I was going to call you out on your bad reasoning and buddying doesn't make it not bad reasoning and buddying.

In case you can't tell I begin to tire of Guardian = |

Yeah, I bet it gets annoying when you're scum and a townie tries all game to convince people to lynch you. .

[Guardian]

Sure thing, I will show how the post of yours immediately before this I feel qualifies admirably as an example of your very contrived logic.

How so. How was it?

I show this later in this post!! You started replying to my post before you'd even finished reading it -- your posts continue to

do nothing but make me think you are typing out replies for the sake of typing out replies

.

When have I ever said that it was?

Well you obviously think so, because you think I'm scummy for doing so.

I think the case on John was better, and you ignored it for an inferior Occult case.

They meant nothing without confirmation of Adel's alignment, and I figured it out to be brought up before the lynch. (I kind of feel like I've inadvertantly been ignoring this)

That is "I figured they

ought

to be brought up before the lynch.

Again, did you not read where I self quoted and said that I did bring them up?

Then why ask this question, and act like I never had.....?

You are attacking me from both sides.

Untrue. You're not retracting an argument, yet still continuing to push things unconsistent (Aimee's lynch, yet contending she was town. Attacking people for not being on John, yet voting me)

The first isn't inconsistent, as I've explained numerous times. I attacked YOU for not being on John day TWO, and then you voted John -- so I think it is highly legitimate for me to attack you for that action.

My actions are not at all contradictory upon thorough consideration.

[Yeah, I again say -- how are you doing anything but agreeing with Skruffs for the sake of agreeing with him? As I pointed out, I definitely brought this up yesterday -- why do you agree that I didn't?

I most definitely do NOT remember you bringing this up.

See above... I did bring this up....

This again I take issue with. I don't see how it makes any sense to basically tell the scum not to bus today, as Skruffs did -- and here you are, saying that you highly support this play.

I seriously doubt it's helping the scum.

I seriously doubt that it's not helping scum.

Again, this seems like BS to me. I explained how Skruffs was being defensive and using bad logic. And you say you "agree with Skruffs" Skruffs did not take a stand here, he asked a question. And yet you agree with it?? This is the second or third time in this post he asks a prodding question and you "agree with it". How does you agreeing with a question make any sense, except as buddying scum?

1.Please quote where you said as such. If it was only your first 4 or 5 posts I'm going to be angry.

How about you read through my posts and find it? Like right after my day one case, through 4 pages, Skruffs got way over defensive and used bad logic and I called him on it, that's one of many examples.

2.THey are good. Fricking. Questions. Questions I agree with. Questions I agree need an answer.

So you agreed that they were good questions now? Not that you agree with Skruffs's conclusions?

This is the first thing that is semi-legitimate, though I have responded to this and believe that the town has benefited more when I've stuck to my guns rather than when yesterday when I voted my #2 choice.

I will probably come back to this in a later post. It irks me, but I'm unsure why.

Maybe because for once you've raised a point that a townie would raise and I'm not calling you on it, while all most of your other points are bogus?

And this part, you just predict that I am going to call you out for the bad reasoning expressed in your post. Just because you knew I was going to call you out on your bad reasoning and buddying doesn't make it not bad reasoning and buddying.

No I call out that you're going to interpret everything I saw as scum.

No U.

"Now your opponent knows that all those who chose to oppose, shall yield when you wield your mighty shield."

I highly expect that to be something scummy to you.

Nope -- the rest of the post where you do nothing serious to combat my arguments is what's scummy.

You type answers to type answers, attack easy targets (Tony and Oman right now, apparently), and do nothing to respond to others or further cases.

IH is scum guys, he is so scummy every freaking post...

[Guardian]

Sure thing, I will show how the post of yours immediately before this I feel qualifies admirably as an example of your very contrived logic.

How so. How was it?

I show this later in this post!! You started replying to my post before you'd even finished reading it -- your posts continue to

do nothing but make me think you are typing out replies for the sake of typing out replies

.

Um, you do realize that a lot of your posts could be described as "typing out attacks on IH for the sake of typing out attacks"?

He responds to almost every single one of my attacks with bullshit flippant throwaway statements. Should I just not quote his responses and point them out as complete bullshit, and let them be?

For examples: in his post where he says "Before Adel was lynched?" I CLEARLY CLEARLY self-quoted and stated that they were before she was lynched. And he takes that as addressing my point. It is so scummy and makes me want to just pound my head into the wall and scream What The F***.

He is scum and desperately needs to be lynched.


My feelings right now are IH-Tony-VitaminR with Oman being a good fourth candidate. Thok and Skruffs are below those, and Elias, while not as sure as I've been all game, still seems to be town to me.

Seriously, have you looked at any of IH's other games? I feel like a lot of the stuff your complaining about is an IH-tell, not a scum tell (i.e. it simply is part of IH's style.)

Yes, I have. I think that as town he does respond in this way sometimes, but his responses are (mostly) not complete bullshit. Here, he is just typing text for the sake of typing text, and it infuriates me. He is definitely scum. We need to lynch him. .

This is only one thing against him mind you -- his voting record and possible scum pairs also bear heavy on him imo.

Like I said, Tony makes a good second choice, and VitaminR looks like a good third, with Oman being also a good possibility if one of those three doesn't turn out... but IH needs to be lynched today, pretty much.

If we lose this game to IH scum after mislynching someone else today, I am literally going to cry. This would be my sixth game lost of six where I found scum and no one listened...

[Guardian]

Thok, respond to my most recent post (as you are the main and definitely most reasonable-sounding person who wants the IH-me back and forth to stop)?

Tony, what do you think of

your

voting record? Also, did you not realize that Skruffs did the exact same thing you just did in posting the lynch vote counts?

Also, I'll say again, for the record, that YB was my #2 suspect and while I wanted IH gone first it was clear I did not at all oppose the YB lynch.

[Guardian]

Guardian, how do you reconcile an IH-TonyMoonshine scum pair (which you've suggested) with IH and TonyMoonshine's behavior early day 2?

I just noticed this and though I'd respond -- as you might have seen, initially I thought IH-Tony would not make any sense, and IH scum would mean Tony town, and vice versa.

But look at how recently Tony has refused to comment in any way about IH -- and IH, for all he says he is interested in Tony, has not really done much to act on that suspicion.

Basically, the disparity between their day 2 actions and their current actions make me think that they could actually be scum together -- and their lack of consistency without explaining why they are changing their opinions

suggests

that they are scum together -- so if IH is lynched and comes up scum, I would still be interested in pursuing Tony.


VitamniR's vote on Oman also feels very wrong to me -- it is in direct contrast with what he was thinking just a little bit ago, and he hasn't explained the change. VitaminR, I thought you said IH would be a good play today?

[Guardian]

and IH, for all he says he is interested in Tony, has not really done much to act on that suspicion.

QFL (Quoted for lyingness)

90% of your posts are targeted at me. You do almost nothing to build a case on Tony. You're like "oh, Tony you're scummy and need to contribute... but look there's Guardian".

If you think he is the best play for today why not vote him? This is just like day two where you say you supported John but didn't vote him until I specifically asked you to...




VitaminR, I must have missed that. I guess I just disagree then -- I think Tony is the obvious second choice to IH at this point -- although if Oman doesn't get replaced and can't contribute, maybe it makes sense to lynch him -- that didn't work out too well with Adel though...

[Guardian]

Thok, respond to my most recent post (as you are the main and definitely most reasonable-sounding person who wants the IH-me back and forth to stop)?

Why should I?

Because I ask if I should just let IH lie for now, and stop going back and forth with him. Is that what I should do? You seem to imply as such. I don't understand why this makes sense since every post by IH is so scummy, but .

Your most recent post is simply you going "I don't agree with Thok's argument that IH's flippancy and looseness in posting is part of his normal behavior as IH." Unless you're planning on giving a convincing and massive metagame analysis of IH that explains why his posting is a scumtell rather than an IHtell, I don't see that there's much to say.

Has it ever occured to you that part of the reason spends a lot of time responding to you is because you spend a lot of time attacking him?

It is something of a vicious cycle -- his responses are always scummy so I attack him for them then he responds.

As for the IH comment you discuss in 1293, lets look at a perfectly reasonable scenario at how it could have happened.

1. Skruffs made a comment in 1257 about why you didn't mention the Adel thing.
2. IH agrees with it in 1258 without saying much or even really saying what he agrees with.
3. You point out Skruffs was wrong in 1259. You also attack IH for saying he agrees with Skruffs.
4. IH clarifies in 1270 what he liked about his 1257, without noticing what happened in the beginning of 1259, because he skimmed your post.

Is it sloppy play? Sure; it requires IH to be skimming over your posts and ignore stuff that makes hs eyes glaze over. Is it delibarately scummy play? I'd think scum might actually check carefully over what actually happened in your posts, so they could actually counter your attacks.

I disagree that scum would read more carefully. He would have to come up with real arguments then. This way he can be much lazier.

I also think you're ignoring the issue your massive posts have on the game readibility. If you had just flipped out and make a post saying "I already discussed this comment in 1259!", that would have been a ton more effective in actually getting something done.

So what do I do? Stop pushing an IH case? I feel that I need to keep pushing this case until it sticks, IH not being lynched is bad.

Tony, what do you think of

your

voting record? Also, did you not realize that Skruffs did the exact same thing you just did in posting the lynch vote counts?

What do you think of Tony's voting record?

I would like Tony to respond to this before I do.

Do you not realize that Tony previously mentioned that somebody had organized the voting records?

Yes -- and then he seemed to have forgotten it -- as he did the same thing over again. Do you not realize how I was trying to get a response out of him, not out of you?

Also, what do you think of the fact that VitR and Omanus have been on every wagon.

I dislike it very much -- it shows a lack of caring who is lynched. Note how they are two of my top three suspects.


Tony, you think IH is town? I missed it. Because of the effort he put into his re-read? What about the effort I put into my re-read -- why is it a town-tell for him and not a town-tell for me??

Elias, I'd love to hear you're reasoning. You're wrong about me, and I think quite possibly about Tony too.

[Guardian]

Ah. I forgot it as you never responded as to why for him it is a town tell but for me it is a scum tell. I basically cast it aside as having no reasoning behind it, as I will again unless you explain why it is a town tell for him but a scum tell for me.

[Guardian]

Thok, I guess it is not significantly different.

[Guardian]

Still wrong, keep reading, I eagerly await your reasoning lol.

[Guardian]

Alright. Time for my findings.

It all started when this game was a young lad, so to speak. About page 4(ish) when the Occult wagon was just starting. First, I noticed that the first person to vote Occult was IH (as guardian has said many times before).

FOS: IH.

That makes some sense, but being the first vote isn't what's bad, being the driving force behind a townie wagon while ignoring good evidence on John was what I thought was bad.

And then, CRASH, the site is dead for weeks. I am deeply saddened by the loss, since this was probably the most telling part of the Occult wagon, when it was just starting. Anyways, after NAR is replaced, the suspicion on John/Occult are beginning to pick up again. Here, BM is the very first to suggest the pairing of John and Occult. He then proceeds to vote Occult, on VERY faulty reasoning.

FOS: BM (Guardian).

Faulty reasoning is a BM scum tell?

He is questioned for his reasoning, he evades the question. He eventually states that he is voting Occult because of the possible pairing with John, yet he is not voting John. He at this point has posted more evidence against John, yet is voting Occult on the sole basis of a possible link to John.

FOS: BM (Guardian).

Yeah that wasn't great play on BMs part. You are ignoring how blagho voted John, I notice.

Soon afterwards, Occult uses attacks BM, because he has seen BM often more aggressive as town, and he feels BM is sitting back this game. John (known scum) comes to his defense, saying that aggressiveness is not a scum tell (completely ignoring the fact that the attack is based on specifically BMs tactics).

FOS: BM (Guardian)

(for sitting back this game, and since Johnscum defends him).

So Johnscum buddying with BM is a scum tell for BM?

Some time goes by. Guardian replaces BM. He calls YB very suspicious, and places a vote. Sometime later he unvotes and votes someone else (IH i think). Guardian makes another post calling YB scummy. Yet, when deadline rolls around, guess who is not on YB, for all his talk? Guardian. Interesting.

FOS: Guardian.

It is completely clear that YB was my #2 suspect, and that IH was far and above my #1 suspect. I've responded to this many times. Voting YB at the end of day would have meant nothing -- YB was going to be lynched, and I would have rather had IH lynched. I saw no reason to move my vote.

Next day, Guardian doesnt do too much til the end. He had been calling Romanus suspicious and Aimee town all day. Yet when deadline rolls around, instead of voting Romanus (which would have prevented the Aimee lynch) he stays on IH.

FOS: Guardian.

Voting Romanus *wouldn't* have prevented an Aimee lynch, first off. Second off, I was like 65% sure on Romanus, 70% sure on Aimee-town, and 90% sure on IH. Why should I be expected to change my vote when everyone else is placing meaningless votes at day's end? Like some votes on mustafa, for instance?

On page 43, IH attacks him for not moving to Romanus and letting Aimee get lynched (1051). However, IH makes a typo in the post. Guardian exposes the typo and avoids the question. (1053). However, IH never brings up the point again, despite Guardians obvious evasion.

FOS: Guardian, mFOS: IH.

I wanted clarification -- I agree with the fosing IH, but I really wasn't sure what IH meant -- did he expect me to switch to Romanus, or to mustafa, or what? I don't like at all how you attack me for trying to get clarification on this typo.

Guardian votes MoS on BS reasons. Later, he votes Tony on BS reasons. (Not saying that it was a bad vote, saying that his PROVIDED reasons were bad).

FOS: Guardian.

Also, sometime during this day, he attacks Skruffs for something that NAR did, which he has no evidence of happening besides other peoples reports

I have already responded to all of this. MoS was really scummy and wasn't contributing and needed to be voted. If Oman doesn't get replaced, I feel that the same standard should probably apply. I don't think my reasons for voting Tony were BS. Also, as I've said many times, I was shadowing this game, and when I saw it needed replacement I jumped in. I hardly remember them now, but I had read NAR's votehopping and badlogic.

He has also votehopped the whole game, despite his posts, which have attacked IH all game.

Quoted For Lying. WTF Elias -- you attack me two or three times in this post for NOT switching my vote off of IH, and now accuse me of votehopping? WTF?

And for all his talk about IH, the only good point he has, as far as I can tell, is IH's voting record.

FOS: Guardian.

IH is flippant and scummy every single post, and blatantly ignores arguments and tries to contrive arguments on others. His voting record is only a part of what I find him scummy for.

I think that there is A LOT of good evidence for a Guardian lynch. Therefore, I will

vote: Guardian

.

Wow Elias. I have a question for you. Most of "your arguments" were brought up by others and responded to by me numerous times in the game.

Why is it that only now you find me scummy for them, and you didn't find me scummy for them at earlier times when they came up?

[Guardian]

In 17 days, Oman will be modkilled.

WTF?!? You just basically told us to find 3 scum in 17 days! Are you trying to make the town lose?

WTF!? How does Oman being modkilled mean we only have 17 days to find 3 scum?

It sounds a LOT like you *KNOW* he is town.

[Guardian]

It has a lot to do with how we're one away from LYLO? 2 mislynches lose us the game. A deadline lynch will come before 17 days. If its wrong, we'll be at LYLO. If we dont find scum in 17 days, and Oman is town, thats a loss.

Yeah -- so explain how you weren't "assuming" Oman was town there, because it certainly seems that you

were

are.

FOS: Elias

.

[Guardian]

It has a lot to do with how we're one away from LYLO? 2 mislynches lose us the game. A deadline lynch will come before 17 days. If its wrong, we'll be at LYLO. If we dont find scum in 17 days, and Oman is town, thats a loss.

Yeah -- so explain how you weren't "assuming" Oman was town there, because it certainly seems that you

were

are.

FOS: Elias

.

Um, yeah,this point is under the assumption that Oman is town. Alright. Ive had a town feel for him since the reread.

Really? Where did you ever say this or justify this?

Whats you point?

Only three players in this game know the alignment of everyone else for certain. That one post made it seem very much like you might be one of those three players.

And further, why are you using this as a way to get around my other arguments against you?

I'm

not

, I just didn't respond to them immediately when this came up.

I could equally ask "why are you using your arguments on me as a way to get around my argument against you?" I'm not trying to evade the argument against me -- are you?

[Guardian]

And then, CRASH, the site is dead for weeks. I am deeply saddened by the loss, since this was probably the most telling part of the Occult wagon, when it was just starting. Anyways, after NAR is replaced, the suspicion on John/Occult are beginning to pick up again. Here, BM is the very first to suggest the pairing of John and Occult. He then proceeds to vote Occult, on VERY faulty reasoning.

FOS: BM (Guardian).

Faulty reasoning is a BM scum tell?

Pay more attention to the part where he is the first to mention the possible pairing of Occult and John. Later he agrees with himself, and it seems to me as if he was the route of this idea.

I see this, and it was quite bad. I say again: since when is faulty reasoning a BM scum tell?

He is questioned for his reasoning, he evades the question. He eventually states that he is voting Occult because of the possible pairing with John, yet he is not voting John. He at this point has posted more evidence against John, yet is voting Occult on the sole basis of a possible link to John.

FOS: BM (Guardian).

Yeah that wasn't great play on BMs part. You are ignoring how blagho voted John, I notice.

I'm confused. How does Blahgos vote relate to BM? I mean, he replaced him, but the guy made two posts, one with the vote, one requesting replacement. I'm guessing it couldve been a random vote, he couldve been joining a buddy in bussing, or he couldve been distancing. I believe Blahgos vote is a null tell.

I think blagho, with John being scum, looks very much like a townie who didn't really care and wanted a wagon. If you think it was scum distancing... well I can't really argue with that, I can just tell you that it is wrong and that I disagree.

Soon afterwards, Occult uses attacks BM, because he has seen BM often more aggressive as town, and he feels BM is sitting back this game. John (known scum) comes to his defense, saying that aggressiveness is not a scum tell (completely ignoring the fact that the attack is based on specifically BMs tactics).

FOS: BM (Guardian)

(for sitting back this game, and since Johnscum defends him).

So Johnscum buddying with BM is a scum tell for BM?

First of all, do not mischaracterize this. Although it could be buddying up, it could just as easily be defending a scumbuddy, which is what I see it as.

And I see it as buddying up. You've done nothing to at all convince me or anyone else that it was more likely to be defending than buddying, and it wasn't defending. Saying blagho's vote was a null tell and that John was more likely to be defending is something of a double standard.

Second of all, I'm using this one fos to represent both the metagaming, which I agree with, and the defense from John.

Hmm? I am slightly confused.

Some time goes by. Guardian replaces BM. He calls YB very suspicious, and places a vote. Sometime later he unvotes and votes someone else (IH i think). Guardian makes another post calling YB scummy. Yet, when deadline rolls around, guess who is not on YB, for all his talk? Guardian. Interesting.

FOS: Guardian.

It is completely clear that YB was my #2 suspect, and that IH was far and above my #1 suspect. I've responded to this many times. Voting YB at the end of day would have meant nothing -- YB was going to be lynched, and I would have rather had IH lynched. I saw no reason to move my vote.

There is also no reason not to move your vote. Your move to not vote simply shows to me that you were reluctant to lynch him. Why would you not vote if you thought he was scum?

I wanted IH lynched. I didn't want to support a YB lynch over an IH lynch. Moving my vote or not moving it had no effect on the outcome, why are you pressing this so much?

It was obvious that IH wasnt going to be lynched that day.

/disagree. Well, maybe at the end it was. But YB possibly could have been wrong, and I didn't want to support it. IH was my top choice.

Next day, Guardian doesnt do too much til the end. He had been calling Romanus suspicious and Aimee town all day. Yet when deadline rolls around, instead of voting Romanus (which would have prevented the Aimee lynch) he stays on IH.

FOS: Guardian.

Voting Romanus *wouldn't* have prevented an Aimee lynch, first off. Second off, I was like 65% sure on Romanus, 70% sure on Aimee-town, and 90% sure on IH. Why should I be expected to change my vote when everyone else is placing meaningless votes at day's end? Like some votes on mustafa, for instance?

It wouldve helped towards preventing it. Basically, I dont like the passive attitude you took towards the Aimee lynch near the end of the day.

OK, that's more supportable -- but I wanted IH lynched -- and with 2 votes needed only, he *was* a viable candidate. *Anyone* was a viable candidate, and I saw no reason to change my vote.

On page 43, IH attacks him for not moving to Romanus and letting Aimee get lynched (1051). However, IH makes a typo in the post. Guardian exposes the typo and avoids the question. (1053). However, IH never brings up the point again, despite Guardians obvious evasion.

FOS: Guardian, mFOS: IH.

I wanted clarification -- I agree with the fosing IH, but I really wasn't sure what IH meant -- did he expect me to switch to Romanus, or to mustafa, or what? I don't like at all how you attack me for trying to get clarification on this typo.

I think it was pretty obvious what he meant, otherwise, why would I have known what he was saying?

Because you assumed what he meant instead of having him explain it himself? IH-Elias connection?

Guardian votes MoS on BS reasons. Later, he votes Tony on BS reasons. (Not saying that it was a bad vote, saying that his PROVIDED reasons were bad).

FOS: Guardian.

Also, sometime during this day, he attacks Skruffs for something that NAR did, which he has no evidence of happening besides other peoples reports

I have already responded to all of this. MoS was really scummy and wasn't contributing and needed to be voted. If Oman doesn't get replaced, I feel that the same standard should probably apply. I don't think my reasons for voting Tony were BS. Also, as I've said many times, I was shadowing this game, and when I saw it needed replacement I jumped in. I hardly remember them now, but I had read NAR's votehopping and badlogic.

MoS wasnt really scummy. Adel was scummy, hopping into the game voting random immediately without reasoning, but MoS really wasnt, he hadnt finished reading.

mustafa was scummy. MoS wasn't doing anything. Game was dying. Lynch MoS.

I disagree on your reasons for tony. And about NAR, if you can hardly remember it, why in hell are you attacking someone about it?

I remembered it then, and I have my recollections of it and yours in writing.

Do you remember what post 27 was? If not, then why attack people for it?

Answer: because you can go back and read it. We don't have a direct history of NAR's actions, but we do have a fairly reliable indirect history if it -- your analysis included. Or were you misrepresenting NAR's actions?

He has also votehopped the whole game, despite his posts, which have attacked IH all game.

Quoted For Lying. WTF Elias -- you attack me two or three times in this post for NOT switching my vote off of IH, and now accuse me of votehopping? WTF?

Don't you see? Thats what makes your votehopping so suspicious. There were two particular instances, near deadline, where you decided to stick your vote on someone when you were suspicious of others.

Notably IH over YB and Romanus? YB and IH I thought were scum together, and moving my vote did not matter at all. Romanus we don't know his alignment, all though from your posts 7 back I'm really beginning to guess it is town.

Besides those two instances, you've been hopping around like crazy (and always landing back at IH).

That's not really true. IH has been my main focus.

And for all his talk about IH, the only good point he has, as far as I can tell, is IH's voting record.

FOS: Guardian.

IH is flippant and scummy every single post, and blatantly ignores arguments and tries to contrive arguments on others. His voting record is only a part of what I find him scummy for.

As far as I can tell he's responded to every one of your points. From what I've seen, youre the one that ignored one of his points.

The point where you assumed what he meant but he never clarified? That one? Why are you defending him on that and attacking me?

Also, you count all his responses as "responding to every one of my points"? He has typed text after quoting almost all of my points, as I've said, he hasn't really

responded

to them in many instances.

If you feel otherwise, provide me with some quotes.

I've done this before... I am too busy to re-read IH right now, but if me doing this will be relevant, I can do it at some later time.

And we agree that the only point of his I've ignored is the one where he never made clear what his point was?

I think that there is A LOT of good evidence for a Guardian lynch. Therefore, I will

vote: Guardian

.

Wow Elias. I have a question for you. Most of "your arguments" were brought up by others and responded to by me numerous times in the game.Why is it that only now you find me scummy for them, and you didn't find me scummy for them at earlier times when they came up?

Mainly, this stems from the fact that I dropped off the radar around oh...page 29ish? And from that point on I've been saying things like "I need to reread", Ill reread tomorrow" and such, and not really paying attention to the thread. I finally got a round to it, and this is what I found. Also, there at least 2 or 3 points in there I never saw brought against you.

Ah -- so you didn't find me suspicious because you've been lurking all game without any relevant opinions, and just now you are re-entering? .



I find it hard to believe no one has any opinion on Elias assuming Oman is town. I find that really suspicious.

[Guardian]

Welcome Setael... Here's to hoping that you don't share the suspicions of your predecessors .

I really don't like how Guardian is trying to push at Elias for what is fairly obviously a gut townie reaction to a proposed modkill. I can't see how scumElias's reaction to "modkill coming soon" is to started panicking and yelling at the mod about trying to make town lose.

I re-read our exchange, and Elias still really bugs me there. On top of assuming Oman was town, Elias tried to push me to respond to his case instead of resolving his stance on the modkill.

I really don't like how Thok is defending Elias, for what to me is not at all an obviously pro-town reaction.

FoS: Thok

.

Thok's play since coming in has consisted of very strong stances on the players, including some notable defenses (MoS, IH, now Elias). I am not sure that I like this -- he seems too sure of his suspicions about

everyone

.


I still find IH to be very scummy... but Elias and Thok are moving up in the ranks.

Skruffs & VitaminR are staying pretty much the same for me, Tony is still very scummy and still a good 2nd lynching option...

We'll see what Setael contributes, as of right now I'm not very interested in lynching her role.

For now my vote stays on IH... but I definitely want to hear from Elias Thok and Tony.... Possibly I could switch to one of those today.

IH and Skruffs's response to Elias makes much more sense to me than Thok's. I don't see how Elias was "obviously town" in that reaction at all.

[Guardian]

??? You further clarified in 1343, and I agree with that. No?

[Guardian]

IH and Skruffs's response to Elias makes much more sense to me than Thok's. I don't see how Elias was "obviously town" in that reaction at all.

From a logical point of view, Elias's reaction doesn't make sense either way. As town it requires him to know Oman is town

Exactly, which is impossible

as scum it requires him to make a gut reaction to the modkills as his first response on reading about them.

Not true -- he definitely had time to think and post, I don't see at all why you assume his post is a "gut reaction"

Please explain to me why scumElias's first reaction to reading about a modkill would be to yell at the mod. He has no reason to get that angry and it's not at all obvious for him to fake that anger as scum.

Not many things in this game are "obvious". Even me thinking IH is obviously scum is not obvious to everyone else. Something being "not at all obvious" doesn't mean it isn't there.

Elias he has demonstrated no reason to think Romanus is town, and rather weakly responded that that was a result of his re-read. It is, however, impossible for Elias to know Romanus to be town as town -- the only way he can make the jump he did is if he is scum and knows Romanus to be town.

It's also worth noting that you only jumped on Elias after I basically pointed out a fairly major flaw in some of your current IH arguments.

If you think it is "worth noting" then go ahead and note it -- I, however, greatly contest that my arguments against IH are majorly flawed, I definitely think they are strong and that there is a great chance of IH-scum.

You're also claiming that Elias asking you to actually respond to his questions is scummy? Especially since he's also commenting about his modkill comments at the same time?

Yes -- he acts as if I am completely ignoring his questions and will never get to them. He asked his questions, and had nothing else that he needed to do with them -- me answering them took like 20 minutes, and I wanted responses from him about his reaction before he left for the weekend.

So yes, his attempt to deflect my immediate pressuring of him was scummy.

[Guardian]

as scum it requires him to make a gut reaction to the modkills as his first response on reading about them.

Not true -- he definitely had time to think and post, I don't see at all why you assume his post is a "gut reaction"

The difference between the two relevant posts was seven minutes. That isn't really a lot of time. And that assumes that Elias used all of the time there to make a response.

Moreover, there are things like tone of the post which are relevant. Elias could have made that post with a lot less anger, or he could have chosen to comment that people in the town needed to do more rather than attacking the mod.

I notice how you chose not to respond at all to my point about how it makes no sense for him to assume Romanus is town as town.

Even so, the tone and content of his post are perfectly consistent with scum trying to gain brownie points. He doesn't anger town by pointing the blame at us, he just complains to the mod about how modkilling a townie is bad.

Please explain to me why scumElias's first reaction to reading about a modkill would be to yell at the mod. He has no reason to get that angry and it's not at all obvious for him to fake that anger as scum.

Not many things in this game are "obvious". Even me thinking IH is obviously scum is not obvious to everyone else. Something being "not at all obvious" doesn't mean it isn't there.

Wow. Massive non-sequitor that completely avoids having to answer the question.

Heh, I thought my answer was obvious . Elias-scum would have done it to look townlike -- townies would be angry if they knew a townie was going to be modkilled -- the 7 minutes you mention is indicative that he didn't really think this through, and wanted it to look like gut.

I really, really just don't see him assuming Oman is scum, as town.

Elias he has demonstrated no reason to think Romanus is town, and rather weakly responded that that was a result of his re-read. It is, however, impossible for Elias to know Romanus to be town as town -- the only way he can make the jump he did is if he is scum and knows Romanus to be town.

Um, no. Elias could make this jump if he merely

believes

that Omanus is town. Heck, this case works even if Omanus is scum and Elias is town.

I do not see a townie reacting as Elias did. Period. It requires him assuming with a great degree of certainty that Oman is town.

It's also worth noting that you only jumped on Elias after I basically pointed out a fairly major flaw in some of your current IH arguments.

If you think it is "worth noting" then go ahead and note it -- I, however, greatly contest that my arguments against IH are majorly flawed, I definitely think they are strong and that there is a great chance of IH-scum.

Um, yeah. So I guess that crying emoticon you made in response to me pointing out that one of your antiIH arguments applies equally well to you was just there for no reason?

No, it was there because my slipping and not reading the thread carefully as I should be can definitely be interpreted as me acting scummy.

That doesn't mean that now because I have committed the same type of error that IH has committed that it no longer applies as a scum-tell to IH (no scum tell is perfect, and I'm quite annoyed with my self that I slipped up, twice -- but not knowing what arguments are going on is lazy townsmanship or scum, imo).

Also -- and this is more of a point of contention for me -- IH missing a detail is

not at all

a major component of my case on him. My case is his voting record and his contrived arguments, basically. One does not have to ignore or miss things to respond to them in a scummy way.

You're also claiming that Elias asking you to actually respond to his questions is scummy? Especially since he's also commenting about his modkill comments at the same time?

Yes -- he acts as if I am completely ignoring his questions and will never get to them. He asked his questions, and had nothing else that he needed to do with them -- me answering them took like 20 minutes, and I wanted responses from him about his reaction before he left for the weekend.

So yes, his attempt to deflect my immediate pressuring of him was scummy.

This looks like a BS argument to justify why your questions are more important than Elias's questions. And it ignores the fact that Elias was

doing both things at once

.

He wasn't

doing both things at once

. He typed up his questions, THEN he made the comment about Oman, and we went back and forth on it. He was asking me to get info from him about Oman AND answer his questions, all I was asking him to do was to give me insight about his thoughts on Oman.

Claiming that you wanted to get responses from Elias before he left for the weekend would be more believable if you made that comment at the time.

Heh, another thing that was obvious to me but apparently not to others -- he stated like 3 posts previously that he had to leave, and that was a few hours ago. I wanted his current, fresh, thoughts on Oman before he left, not something contrived afterwards.

[Guardian]

Tony
Gaurdian?/Elias?/Thok? (large decrease)
Setael?/ One of the other three?/VitR?

IH, I am really taken aback right there, as if your name was at the top and mine wasn't there, my suspicion list pretty much mirrors yours, with VitR higher up though.

Maybe Tony could be the play for today? Thok and Elias also...
VitaminR (and IH obv.) I am also suspicious of, but based on the recent pages alone...

Especially with Thok and Elias being so in sync and Thok being so definite on so many players, I feel Thok-scum would be very revealing. But, is Thok-scum really that likely?

I like Setael's thoughts on Thok, but I want to hear his thoughts on the other players.

[Guardian]

You do realize that Mustafa's dead, right?

fos: Setael

. Explain.

[Guardian]

Why are you avoiding the me-IH issues? I find them rather significant...

[Guardian]

Wow. Posts like that (Tony's 1397) make my mind explode.

I wish I had time to respond in detail to everything...

While I'm happy Troj is dropping the ludicrous me-Setael connection, his change of mind seems rather abrupt -- also, I don't see how my suspicions of Setael are unfounded; he just replaced, he should know these things from his read. MoS died... IH-me is significant... I find it suspicious that Setael ignored those things.


Right now my scum list is looking a lot like IH's. This troubles me to no end, tbh. A lot of people are calling for me to drop the IH persistence, which doesn't make much sense to me -- why not try and push a case on someone you believe to be scum?

Knowing IH's alignment would really help me, since if he is town, I agree like 100% with his suspicions (disregarding me of course), and him being town makes VitR look a bit better, and makes all three of Tony, Thok, Elias, look more plausible.

Elias will probably complain about me moving my vote or whatnot, even though I have not been at all vote hoppy all game as Elias claims...

but

unvote vote: Tony

. Assuming IH-town, I could see a Tony-Thok-Elias pairing right now, and I can also definitely see a Tony-IH pairing.

I want to see one of those four lynched today... I still would really, really prefer an IH-lynch, but failing that, I think Tony is my second choice.

[Guardian]

While I'm happy Troj is dropping the ludicrous me-Setael connection, his change of mind seems rather abrupt -- also, I don't see how my suspicions of Setael are unfounded; he just replaced, he should know these things from his read. MoS died... IH-me is significant... I find it suspicious that Setael ignored those things.

I find these comments as a sign that Satael is still getting caught up on the game. The correct response is to see if she catches up on the game.

OK, and I want to see how she catches up, her not catching up before making the comments was a bit scummy imo.

Right now my scum list is looking a lot like IH's. This troubles me to no end, tbh. A lot of people are calling for me to drop the IH persistence, which doesn't make much sense to me -- why not try and push a case on someone you believe to be scum?

Knowing IH's alignment would really help me, since if he is town, I agree like 100% with his suspicions (disregarding me of course), and him being town makes VitR look a bit better, and makes all three of Tony, Thok, Elias, look more plausible.

How does IH being town make it more likely I'm scum?

You have defended him with such absolute certainty, you seemed to be trying to make it look like I was very scummy *for attacking IH*, regardless of the arguments used. I think that it is possible you found me scummy *for attacking a townie* and tried to use that as your argument.

You need to die.

vote Guardian

So me finding you a higher suspect makes it so that I need to die? Over the past few pages I've mentioned how I thought you really might be scum after all, and you have responded by pushing a me-Oman conneciton, then a me opportunistic vs. Oman disconnection, and basically anything to build up momentum to bus me, I don't get it.

Each post you like tried to convince yourself into voting me, and you finally did vote me. I find that quite suspicious, I think Tony, you, or IH needs to go, and right at this moment I am definitely favoring Tony any you, you trying to bus me doesn't make sense.

[Guardian]

Yeah but if you read his posts, he's been planning to do it for about 5 pages, or more. Just because he waited to put the vote on doesn't make his reasons any better.

[Guardian]

IH -- this is exactly what I'm thinking -- read my 1385 again.

I think Thok scum --> you town.


Your tone makes me think that you think I disagree with that.

[Guardian]

You

are

trying to wagon me. With confirm votes and the like. What do you mean "why am I claiming this"??

[Guardian]

Yeah seriously, I don't like your last post at all. I like my vote on Tony and I don't like vote hopping so extremely, but

FOS: Thok

.

[Guardian]

I find these comments as a sign that Satael is still getting caught up on the game. The correct response is to see if she catches up on the game.

OK, and I want to see how she catches up, her not catching up before making the comments was a bit scummy imo.

Why?

Cuz she is just trying to throw suspicion wherever she can, why do you find it NOT scummy?

How does IH being town make it more likely I'm scum?

You have defended him with such absolute certainty, you seemed to be trying to make it look like I was very scummy *for attacking IH*, regardless of the arguments used. I think that it is possible you found me scummy *for attacking a townie* and tried to use that as your argument.

Um, yeah right. There was a long period of time where I was arguing that I thought you were both townies. It was only when I saw your attacks on Elias and Satael that I've really started going after you.

Yeah, my well founded attacks. I don't see you as having any sort of good reasoning for not liking them.

You need to die.

vote Guardian

So me finding you a higher suspect makes it so that I need to die? Over the past few pages I've mentioned how I thought you really might be scum after all, and you have responded by pushing a me-Oman conneciton, then a me opportunistic vs. Oman disconnection, and basically anything to build up momentum to bus me, I don't get it.

No, you need to die because you are scum.

COnving .

I've mentioned the you/Romanus connection way before you ever claimed to be suspicious of you

?? Before I claimed to be suspicious of YOU, you mean? And yeah, so what? You were ALSO arguing that me and IH were "both town" what happened to that?

part of my case against Romanus back around post 1270 or so included the fact that you seemed to be deflecting pressure away from him for no particularly good reason. Also,

why are you claiming I'm trying to bus you?

Like I said, you ARE. ??

confirm vote Guardian

Confirm votes are nothing but rhetoric.

Each post you like tried to convince yourself into voting me, and you finally did vote me. I find that quite suspicious, I think Tony, you, or IH needs to go, and right at this moment I am definitely favoring Tony any you, you trying to bus me doesn't make sense.

Again, why are you claiming that I am trying to bus you? Your recent posts have been extremely scummy; that's why I am attacking you. Die you.

I don't think this is true at all. I think you don't like who I am attacking for some reason or the other, and are trying to focus suspicion onto me and off you Tony and

you

.

[Guardian]

You

are

trying to wagon me. With confirm votes and the like. What do you mean "why am I claiming this"??

You did not claim I was trying to wagon you, you claimed I was trying to bus you. There's a very distinct difference in what those terms mean. You are experienced enough that I believe you know the difference between those terms and why using bus there is worthy of a confirm vote and using wagon there is not.

Oh...I just used the wrong term...

Why are you pushing this so much?

---

Tony, your voting me is incredible, considering the complete lack of justification you've made for any of your actions...

Seriously, I bet at least 2/3 of my wagon right now is scum, possibly 3/3.

[Guardian]

Wow, seriously, I am at -2 right now.... This is just like day 3, there is such little of a case on me this is ridiculous, Tony or Thok should probably be the play.

[Guardian]

What the heck!?

Bus means that you would be scum busing me-scum. It doesn't just mean that I am scum, it would have to mean that you are scum too...

I know I'm not scum, so you can't be scum with me..

What are you going on and on about this for!?!? I probably just used the term because I was thinking you are scum.

[Guardian]

...I accidentally used the word bus. You are trying to wagon me, it doesn't make a lot of sense, I won't show up scum... wtf, seriously.

[Guardian]

Yeah wtf, why would I want to be connected to you? You are being so scummy right now.

If that is your reason for voting me, that's completely foolish.

I almost find you more scummy for your reasoning than Tony for his lack of reasoning...

[Guardian]

Elias, did you even read the last 10 posts??

Yeah, obv. I slipped, I'm not scum but I was thinking of Thok as "busing" me since I thought he was scum.

And then he made a ridiculously big deal about it....

fos: everyone on my wagon

.

[Guardian]

Seriously, I think the scum saw the word "bus" and decided that was a good reason to wagon me. This is such BS, don't fall for it guys.

[Guardian]

You are using it as a reason to push my wagon. Your reason before it were quite weak.

[Guardian]

Elias, did you even read the last 10 posts??

Yeah, obv. I slipped, I'm not scum but I was thinking of Thok as "busing" me since I thought he was scum.

And then he made a ridiculously big deal about it....

fos: everyone on my wagon

.

Yes I've read them.

So why point out "freudian slip" when it had already been pointed out and discussed several times? Why not comment on the discussion?

I gave several reasons to vote for you besides your supposed slip. There is good evidence against you, better then against anyone else. Why are you trying to protray voting on good evidence as suspicious?

I've already fully responded to why I think your "good evidence" is not at all good, and that you are being severely contradictory in suddenly pushing a case on me now.

And further, why are you trying to protray your slip as the only evidence I've brought against you?

Nope, but you sure are pushing it as a scum tell, a scum tell that is a completely bogus one.