Consulmaker - Carthage wins!

[Zindaras]

Your use of logical fallacy combined with inescapably false factualizations astounds me, Zindaras. Mith, having yet to write said article, cannot yet have supplanted the established principles set forth by Jeep and amended by Pheobus in his "Mafia Principles Redux" article, circa 2005.

Inescapably? I beg to differ. Your parameters are incorrect, for here, in the Netherlands, we started counting at what would be for the rest of the world 1 BC. Therefore, Mith's 2008 article clearly is able to rebut Jeep's 2004 and Phoebus's 2006 articles.

These guidelines,

a fortiori

, provide us with the materials needed to prove that our Consuls have given us substance to work with

ab absurdo

, per se.

Concordantly with my earlier claims, as proven by Mith's 2008 article, there is no required "substance" needed to cessate Battle Mage awareness.

Tribunal Vote Count

Mastermind of Sin - 4(Zindaras, Primate, TheEyeOfMordor, ~N9V~)
Raffles - 4(Raffles, Cephrir, Battle Mage, Panzerjager)
Kison - 1(mole)
Cheesefan - 1(Kison)
Rand Althor - 1(Rand Althor)
mole - 1(AndrewS)
Panzerjager - 1(livingod)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Don't make me modkill people. You're probably confusing people and this is niceness day.

[AndrewS]

Alright, back on topic.

I think that I can summarize the argument against Panzer quite easily. That is such:

We can reasonably assume that the chances of both consuls on a given day being scum are slim to none. We can also assume that on most days, the consuls chosen will be reasonably good players. Ergo, for as long as we have 2 consuls, we have at least one super-tribune - IE, one person who has unlimited veto and cannot be executed. This, of course, changes when we reach dictatorship, but that's on down the road a good bit.

Therefore, is that second veto

really

going to be that useful this early in the game?

Furthermore, there is a major question here to consider. In regards to veto, is quantity or quality of the veto more important? No offense, Panzer, but you are newer to the game and I'm not exactly sure that your powers of scum-hunting are going to be as good as, say, MoS'. That ability develops with experience.

Right now, I'm honestly leaning towards a pro-town Panzer at the moment. That doesn't mean that we should elect him Tribune, however.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's pretty much what I wanted to say.

[Zindaras]

And also pretty much what I said here:

To be honest, I don't think Tribune vetos are as important as you're making them to be. I doubt that one extra veto will really help the town.

There are two Tribunes with each one vote. The other Consul can veto at his discretion. We'll have 3 weeks to execute someone. What do you expect the Consuls to do, randomly execute someone? There will be a reasoning behind the Consuls' approach of execution, and to say that we need as many vetoes as possible is overdone.

Also, MoS, I really want to thank you. That was one awesome argument.

[Mastermind of Sin]

It did contribute

ad libitum

, indeed.

[AndrewS]

Also, I have to say that I am not feeling the Raffles wagon. He's only made 2 posts of substance, defending Battle Mage and Panzer respectively. Let's analyze the wagon...

Raffles - Self-vote
Cephrir - No reason given
Battle Mage - Voted for him because he was defended by him?
Panzerjager - Same?

In other words...

FOS: Raffles, Cephrir, Battle Mage, Panzerjager

[Kison]

Alright, back on topic.

I think that I can summarize the argument against Panzer quite easily. That is such:

We can reasonably assume that the chances of both consuls on a given day being scum are slim to none. We can also assume that on most days, the consuls chosen will be reasonably good players. Ergo, for as long as we have 2 consuls, we have at least one super-tribune - IE, one person who has unlimited veto and cannot be executed. This, of course, changes when we reach dictatorship, but that's on down the road a good bit.

Therefore, is that second veto

really

going to be that useful this early in the game?

Furthermore, there is a major question here to consider. In regards to veto, is quantity or quality of the veto more important? No offense, Panzer, but you are newer to the game and I'm not exactly sure that your powers of scum-hunting are going to be as good as, say, MoS'. That ability develops with experience.

Right now, I'm honestly leaning towards a pro-town Panzer at the moment. That doesn't mean that we should elect him Tribune, however.

QFT.

I'm leaning towards an MoS tribune vote, for the experience factor, obviously, but also because I've liked what I've seen from him so far.

While I don't think Raffles is scum at this point, I don't really see much reason to elect him.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thanks

[Raffles]

AndrewS - Well I'm not really feeling the MoS wagon either, everyone voted for him even before he made the first post. This is why my vote hasn't moved from myself, because I felt that I can't vote for MoS or anyone else unless they show me some sign of being a town.

[Zindaras]

MoS is a known quality player. That's why I voted him.

[Raffles]

Maybe so, but I wouldn't rush to risk electing someone who could be a scum even if he was a good player.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir - No reason given

Look again, I did give a reason.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Except for the fact that even if I am scum, I wouldn't want to do something so blatant as make an antitown move as Tribune on Day 1, now would I? Even as scum, I would clearly do my best to veto in the interests of the town, at least on Day 1.

[Raffles]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being picky on you, MoS. I'm just curious why you had something like 4 votes (2 from Consuls) even before you made a single post.

And that last post is WIFOM-debatable. It's basically a twisted version of saying, "if I was a scum, I would make sure I'm not acting scummy"

[Toaster Strudel]

Vote: MoS

for tribune.

[Zindaras]

Maybe so, but I wouldn't rush to risk electing someone who could be a scum even if he was a good player.

What other criterium do you suggest we use when he have virtually nothing to go on?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being picky on you, MoS. I'm just curious why you had something like 4 votes (2 from Consuls) even before you made a single post.

And that last post is WIFOM-debatable. It's basically a twisted version of saying, "if I was a scum, I would make sure I'm not acting scummy"

Yes it is. It's circular logic in a sense, but when you think about it, what reason WOULD I have to try to act scummy if I'm scum?

I believe the reason I had 4 votes was already explained by nearly everyone who voted me, especially AndrewS and Zindaras.

[Raffles]

What other criterium do you suggest we use when he have virtually nothing to go on?

As I have tried to push (and failed) so many times, we have a week to elect a tribune. In a normal mafia game, a week might be enough to get some way through discussion. It might give an insight into who could more likely be a scum, and who could less likely be a scum. And I can't see how consulmaker would be any different. I would have preferred to have some discussion with the person in question before voting on someone other than myself.

[Primate]

AndrewS summed up my feelings regarding electing PanzerTribune in #152.

Mos has done nothing to make me feel like my voting him is at all misplaced.

[Primate]

What other criterium do you suggest we use when he have virtually nothing to go on?

As I have tried to push (and failed) so many times, we have a week to elect a tribune. In a normal mafia game, a week might be enough to get some way through discussion. It might give an insight into who could more likely be a scum, and who could less likely be a scum. And I can't see how consulmaker would be any different. I would have preferred to have some discussion with the person in question before voting on someone other than myself.

We're already halfway through this week and we've barely got one relevant wagon. Mos is legit. We should already be looking for our second.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What other criterium do you suggest we use when he have virtually nothing to go on?

As I have tried to push (and failed) so many times, we have a week to elect a tribune. In a normal mafia game, a week might be enough to get some way through discussion. It might give an insight into who could more likely be a scum, and who could less likely be a scum. And I can't see how consulmaker would be any different. I would have preferred to have some discussion with the person in question before voting on someone other than myself.

You are having some discussion with the person in question, are you not?

[Raffles]

Yes, it finally seems so.

[Mastermind of Sin]

In fact, with the exception of Zindaras, I have the most posts of anyone in this game. (Raffles and I have the same number of posts atm) So you can hardly say that there is not at least some substance for you to make a preliminary judgement as to my alignment.

[Raffles]

Is this counting or discounting your supreme argument between you and Zindy?