Logical vs. Behavioral Scumhunting

[Raging Rabbit]

Isn't Perry Mason like a lawyer on a tv show? Or a cop maybe?

I thought it was some game term I was unfamiliar with, but that may very well be so. Israelis have no culture, you know...

[Mert]

I thought it was some game term I was unfamiliar with, but that may very well be so. Israelis have no culture, you know...

Do they not have Wikipedia either?

By the way, I do plan to reply to your reply to me, but it might not be until tomorrow as I'm off to bed soon methinks.

[Raging Rabbit]

Do they not have Wikipedia either?

Is it a general social trend to know wikipedia by heart in the US? That's good to know...

(I probably should've searched the MS wiki and then maybe I'd have figured to search the real one, but I'm afraid I'm not cosious enough of the wiki's usefulness for some reason).

*checking*

80

novels?! Damn, how did I manage to miss the guy so completely?

By the way, I do plan to reply to your reply to me, but it might not be until tomorrow as I'm off to bed soon methinks.

I will never, ever forgive you for this.

(*

sarcasm

, and this is the last time I'm actually bothering with this*)

[Mert]

Is it a general social trend to know wikipedia by heart in the US?

I wouldn't know, I'm not from the US.

[Patrick]

Nice to have you back Mert. Where were you when I needed you though ?? (cop c9 )

[Raging Rabbit]

Is it a general social trend to know wikipedia by heart in the US?

I wouldn't know, I'm not from the US.

Brits are way, way cooler anyways. <3

Edit: the above applies to Patrick as well.

[Cheesefan]

Is it a general social trend to know wikipedia by heart in the US?

I wouldn't know, I'm not from the US.

Brits are way, way cooler anyways. <3

Edit: the above applies to Patrick as well.

Nah. If you want cool go over to Scandinavia or Holland.

Us brits just have cool accents.

[Mert]

Nice to have you back Mert. Where were you when I needed you though ?? (cop c9 )

There's a sensible explaination somewhere in the Newbie queue, but I can probably summarise it by saying "meh, it all went a bit rubbish". It's a real shame though, I really was enjoying that game but events conspired against me to the point I couldn't keep up (with any games I was in) sufficiently enough. I think I left just after I was killed, but I was turbolurking prior to that, for which I apologise.

Good to be back though. I'm going to take it easy in terms of number of games in order to get back into the swing of things but hopefully you and I will be in another game together soon - one to which I can give my full attention

[Raging Rabbit]

Nah. If you want cool go over to Scandinavia or Holland.

Us brits just have cool accents.

Scandinavians are da coolest, along with Brits (and Scottsmen, of course. Just listening to the accents in Trainspotting makes me go all warm inside. Irish as well. You get my drift).

While the Dutch are very fine n' all, being a Dutch citizen myself I'd feel agocentric for worshipping them.

[Cheesefan]

Nah. If you want cool go over to Scandinavia or Holland.

Us brits just have cool accents.

Scandinavians are da coolest, along with Brits (and Scottsmen, of
course. Just listening to the accents in Trainspotting makes me go all warm inside. Irish as well. You get my drift).

While the Dutch are very fine n' all, being a Dutch citizen myself I'd feel agocentric for worshipping them.

The Dutch deserve it

[Raging Rabbit]

I take it you worhip me back then, with no relation to your undying love

[Cheesefan]

As i have said before its not undying

[Raging Rabbit]

As I've also said before,

DAYKILL: CHEESEFAN

. Still lurve me?

[Kelly Chen]

Actually you're supposed to consult Wikipedia when you want to know something. They don't expect you to memorize it. I don't know any Americans who have memorized it.

[Mert]

I don't know any Americans who have memorized it.

You haven't

lived

.

[Raging Rabbit]

Actually you're supposed to consult Wikipedia when you want to know something. They don't expect you to memorize it. I don't know any Americans who have memorized it.

Of course

there aren't any Americans like that in "apocalyptic scene"...

[Zindaras]

Suppose you do have this incredible gut, how do you convice the town to follow you on a gut attack?

As I said, that's where the logic comes in.

If that was true, random lynching would be the way to go.

I don't see how you arrive at that conclusion.

One way can be more efficient than another,

In general, maybe, but it's all about specific cases. You need to catch all the scum, and if using one way catches you two and using another way catches you another one, then you need to use

both

ways.

and you haven't really commented on my main point yet.

Main point?

So yeah, personally I'm a much bigger fan of relying on the subtle, situational scumtell. There are plenty of illogical townies out there, but at least they're sincere in their naivete.

I totally agree with this. It's one of the major things I watch out for. Townies are more sincere than scum, because their goals are different.

It's not how you catch the scum that matters, as I said. It's that you do. You need to know as many possible ways to catch scum as you can. As I said, I mostly use gut to find out someone is scum, and then logic to lynch them.

Extensive experience as an FBI profiler teaches one that condescending tone accompanied by excessive use of "I", "me" and "my" bears a 57.4% correlation to an archetype of either Serial Killer, Troll or Politician. Two of which can and should be safely voted for on sight.

Yeah, those politicians really need to die.

That experience and depth of thinking would look, to the lay-person, as "going on gut feeling", but could well be a fabulous, subconscious ball of logic that your brain hasn't been trained enough (through experience) to unravel.

I think you word this very nicely, Merty.

Nah. If you want cool go over to Scandinavia or Holland.

I forgive you for that mean comment about kittens you made in some other thread.

While the Dutch are very fine n' all, being a Dutch citizen myself I'd feel agocentric for worshipping them.

You're Dutch? Amusing.

*giggles*

Your location reminds me of a village near where I live.

Anyway, to sum it up a bit:

There is no one way to catch scum. Some scum can be caught by behavioural tells, some scum can be caught by logic.

The problem with behavioural analysis lies in experience. You

need

experience with specific players to be able to analyze their play in other games.

[Adele]

(I probably should've searched the MS wiki and then maybe I'd have figured to search the real one, but I'm afraid I'm not cosious enough of the wiki's usefulness for some reason).

Dude, Wikipedia Is Your Friend.

I don't understand the "Vacuum" thing at all. I work at Blockbusters, yeah, and my store has about 3600 members (many of which are lapsed). Each day, I telephone the people who have DVDs and games overdue by between two and fifteen days. How many people do you think I have to call each day? Your guess is completely uninformed without some real-world facts, and you'd really need to see the Call List to have any real idea. (Typically 20-30 btw).
That's the thing, you see - when you're dealing with people, it's meaningless to try to figure things out "A Priori" (from first prinicples, without using experience). That's what Freud did, and he came up with a big pile of Tosh (handily setting exploratory parameters at the same time so it worked out okay, but for me a reference to Freud in an argument is, like, Godwinian).
To learn anything about people - how they interact, how they react, how they think - you need to observe them, so if I understand what you are meaning by "Vacuum", trying to claim anything in that context is

completely

meaningless (I know this isn't

quite

the smackdown you were seeking )

[Raging Rabbit]

As I said, that's where the logic comes in.

I probably misuderstood then, I thought you were talking about pure gut - i.e "I've just got the mad nagging feeling X's scum".

In general, maybe, but it's all about specific cases.

Once again, my only intention is to speak

in general

. I'm not trying to discredit BHSing by any means.

Main point?

See first post.

It's not how you catch the scum that matters, as I said. It's that you do.

Of course. What's wrong with some purely philosophical discussion about the most theoritcally effiecient one, though? I'm not exactly sure how this should influence my actual strategies, and really don't wanna think about it too much until I'm sure enough in the basic logic.

You're Dutch? Amusing.

My grandfather died serving Holland in WW2, so you should really root for me in any future arguments to repay your countries debt.

Your location reminds me of a village near where I live.

You know what else we have where I live? MOUNTAINS! OMG, OCCASIONAL CHANGES IN TERRITORRY!!1

There is no one way to catch scum. Some scum can be caught by behavioural tells, some scum can be caught by logic.

To sum it up, I never ever said this wasn't true and it's not what I'm trying to figure out.

I work at Blockbusters

Your a servant of capitalism and general bad taste in cinema (and hopefully used to my puns by now).

Anyway, your general argument is somewhat valid, and as I said I'm not exactly sure what to do with my logic even once I'm sure it's unpwnable. Still, your way of thinking basically discredits any "meaningless" philoshopical discussion, and that's no fun imho. If you're not interested, no one's forcing you to be. I'm certainly not trying to get anyone to see the light and join the Bunny Aliance Of Logical Thinking or somethin'.

I somewhat disagree about Freud as well, but arguing with you on that will inevitably end in getting my but kicked since you know all the facts that supports your POV while I do not.

[Rainbow Brite]

That's what Freud did, and he came up with a big pile of Tosh (handily setting exploratory parameters at the same time so it worked out okay, but for me a reference to Freud in an argument is, like, Godwinian).

Freud was

Hitler?

[Fiasco]

I've heard he was a Mussolini supporter.

You know what else we have where I live? MOUNTAINS! OMG, OCCASIONAL CHANGES IN TERRITORRY!!1

Territory is for cavemen.

[Raging Rabbit]

I've heard he was a Mussolini supporter.

You know what else we have where I live? MOUNTAINS! OMG, OCCASIONAL CHANGES IN TERRITORRY!!1

Territory is for cavemen.

I suppose you (?) people are too high to care, anyways.

[Yosarian2]

Logical analysis is 100% subject to WIFOM if you try to analyze it. As an example, let's say my two scumpartners in a Mountainous game play a sketchy d1 and d2. I'm quick to call them on it, they get lynched, and I look like a hero and super-pro-town player. For the rest of the game, I focus on making terse, logical statements that are irrefutable. How are you going to catch me?

If

you manage to pull off such a thing, and in the vast majority of games that won't happen, the town will hopefully have at least 2 other guys about as "confirmed" as you.

Not in a mountainas game; in a vanillia mafia game, confirmed-ish townies end up dead fast.

[Yosarian2]

You're right, I'm sorry, was annoyed with Thok.

My own personal objective was to get people to pwn my logic though, and thus far I mostly have what I consider to be Yos more or less agreeing, PJ's 4th point which I don't really get, and loads of other geuninely interesting general advice.

To be clear, I don't agree with your premise that logical deductions are always better then gut.

In the most general sense, one theory is that the human brain has actually been evolved specifically for the purpose of better communication; better abilites to manipulate others and to tell when others are trying to manipulate you, better ability to cheat and to catch those who cheat, and better ability to lie and to catch liars. A sucesfull liar, cheater, or manipulater will tend to get more resources and better chances at reproduction then others and thus have an evolutionary advantage, while the ability to figure out when people are tryign to lie, cheat, or manipulate you also has an evolutinary advantage for you and for the group as a whole. In other words, your brain's been specicifically designed to notice little signs that a person might not be trustworthy, so you should pay attention to your instints.

In a more mafia-specific sense, I've found that when I've got a really strong gut feeling that a person is town, it's right much more often then you'd expect by random chance, and I'll generally not vote for that person and probably will attempt to defend that person even if the logical evidence against them looks quite bad. I can't always trust my scum-dar, but I've got a lot of faith in my townie-dar.

[Raging Rabbit]

Not in a mountainas game; in a vanillia mafia game, confirmed-ish townies end up dead fast.

Not too tricky. You'll again be suspected but this time for not dying and hopefully end up lynched.

To be clear, I don't agree with your premise that logical deductions are

always

better then gut.

That's because it isn't my premise. I'm saying because of the conflicting interests in scum logic, it's on average somewhat more effiecient than BSHing. Say you take a million purely logical lynches and a million purely behavioral (I know it doesn't work that way, this is

theoretical

), you'll get a higher percentage of correct logical lynches. I'm not that sure of this premise, though, which is why I've been trying to get someone to pwn it for quite a while now. Do you agree with that, incidentally?

(Sorry for making you my authority figure before, I really felt like answering Thok with something other than "logical fallacy!!1".)

In the most general sense, one theory is that the human brain has actually been evolved specifically for the purpose of better communication; better abilites to manipulate others and to tell when others are trying to manipulate you, better ability to cheat and to catch those who cheat, and better ability to lie and to catch liars. A sucesfull liar, cheater, or manipulater will tend to get more resources and better chances at reproduction then others and thus have an evolutionary advantage, while the ability to figure out when people are tryign to lie, cheat, or manipulate you also has an evolutinary advantage for you and for the group as a whole. In other words, your brain's been specicifically designed to notice little signs that a person might not be trustworthy, so you should pay attention to your instints.

While interesting, that's:
1. Like the evilest theory ever (and I'm perfectly familiar with Freud).
2. Finally explains how politicians are chosen nowdays.

I really don't have the brain science knowledge to know what else to make of it, unfurtonately.

I can't always trust my scum-dar, but I've got a lot of faith in my townie-dar.

Now this makes me honestly curious, since you certainly aren't the first to say this here IIRC. Have you noticed some sort of general patterns in either of your 'dars that always effect your feelings, or do you just go completely arbitarlily for whatever you happen to feel? Any other reason you could possibly think of why you trust to-dar better then scu-dar?