Roleblockers

[Flying Dutchman]

I've been in a couple of games with roleblockers now, and I kinda like them. They can make something of a situation you don't expect!!

But I have a question:
What if 2 roleblockers block each other?!

Well, you'd say, that's easy:
They both get blocked, so they can't perform their night actions, so they don't block, so they aren't blocked..........

What would you say? Both get blocked, neither, or one of them?

[shelper]

Well, if you decide to allow them to block eachother, none of them perform a night action and nothing happens.

If you allow one of them to block and the other not to, the one that isn't allowed doesn't block the blocker and the blocker is free to block the blocked.

If neither of them is allowed, nothing happens.

In either case, neither the mafia nor the town will notice anything happened unless the blocker had another night choice that night.

[Yoko Kurama]

What would you say? Both get blocked, neither, or one of them?

This should make shelpers less confusing. Unless one of the roleblockers has another night choice then it doesn't matter which if any of the roleblockers get blocked.

[PolarBoy]

It's a moot point, unless one of the blockers has another ability he executes simultaneously or the action is otherwise somehow known about(such as Mr. Potato Head in Trouble in the Toybox)

In that case it's mod's choice, and he should have decided in advance what should happen and follow through on that.

[Dasquian]

It's a bit of a silly question really except in the contrived examples above (no offense intended) since nothing will happen of any note if two role-blockers cancel each other out. A better and more likely example is: what happens if role-blocker A blocks role-blocker B who blocks the serial killer? In that situation the mod should've set up a contingency at the game-design stage. Most likely giving them a precedence order or something.

[PolarBoy]

this is barely a question. If someone is blocked they don't get to carry out their role. Therefore, the roleblocker who was blocked is blocked. The serial killer gets to make his kill, as nothing was there to stop him.

[ages]

What if vig A targets vig B and vig B targets vig A?

[Flying Dutchman]

What if vig A targets vig B and vig B targets vig A?

They both die.

OK, I see my situation makes no point this way, so I put it a bit different:

Person A and B are vigs AND roleblockers, for a change
Person C is a townie.

Person A and B block each other, and both try to kill C.

Will Person C die?

[Dasquian]

this is barely a question. If someone is blocked they don't get to carry out their role. Therefore, the roleblocker who was blocked is blocked. The serial killer gets to make his kill, as nothing was there to stop him.

I don't think it's barely a question at all - your interpretation makes good sense, but it's not the only possible one. Although I'd be hard-pushed to come up with a more straightforward one, it does mean that if either role-blocker targets the other then they effectively cancel each other out regardless of the second blocker's choice.

In that situation I might have one role-blocker always resolve before the other (he goes out first thing at night while the second one has a whisky first or something). So A targetting B would always have no effect because B's already done his stuff.

Two killing-roles targetting each other is a similar problem, you either assign them an order to carry out kills in or you just let them kill each other In any case I think we can all agree that any situation that could arise the mod should've provided for in advance.

[MeMe]

A good mod should ask himself all of these "what if?" questions before a game begins and know in advance how he will handle each situation. This removes the temptation to steer the game one way or the other.

[Dragon Slayer]

Nothing would happen.

[Antrax]

A good mod should ask himself all of these "what if?" questions before a game begins and know in advance how he will handle each situation. This removes the temptation to steer the game one way or the other.

I generally agree, but have you seen Mixed Theme Mafia?
Also, there is nothing wrong with the mod stirring the game towards any direction, as long as it doesn't violate the integrity of the game, IMO. As long as a mod fills his obligations towards the players (ie, no situations like "uh, tonight you're just too tired so you can't perform your night action" out of the blue), everything else is legit. The purpose of a game IS to have fun, so mild changes that are unknown to the players (and couldn't have been found out in any way) in order to fix something flawed with the game should be okay.
For example: In my very first game on the GL, jesternl was actually a triggered serial killer, but when the trigger finally happened it would've been dumb (endgame) so I just pretended he was a townie to begin with (he was told he's a townie and nobody else knew this role exists. so nobody could've been aiming to activate it or prevent the activation, so for all intents and purposes he WAS a townie right up to that point). That, IMO, made for a more fun game all around, including jesternl himself, which I doubt would've enjoyed such a "win" very much (though the town did end up losing by quite a margin, but that's a different story). But I digress.
Antrax

[Medicated Lain]

I'd use random.org to see which one got the block in.

[MeMe]

I generally agree, but have you seen Mixed Theme Mafia?

Yes....and I've thanked God daily that I didn't sign up for it.

Also, there is nothing wrong with the mod stirring the game towards any direction, as long as it doesn't violate the integrity of the game, IMO. As long as a mod fills his obligations towards the players (ie, no situations like "uh, tonight you're just too tired so you can't perform your night action" out of the blue), everything else is legit. The purpose of a game IS to have fun, so mild changes that are unknown to the players (and couldn't have been found out in any way) in order to fix something flawed with the game should be okay.

The key here is to "fix something flawed" -- if it's just because you want your kick-ass role to survive, but he's being killed off by mafia, so you magically give him a one-time-only bullet proof vest...that's not fair to the killer.

But, to clarify, I was answering the "what happens when so-and-so targets so-and-so at the same time as thus-and-such happens" type questions above. The mod should have thought the scenarios out beforehand and decided what would take precedence.

[CaptainBlicero]

What if 2 roleblockers block each other?!

The role-blocking energies combine and destruct, dealing 10d6 damage to the two role-blockers, and 5d6 splash damage to all adjacent characters (save vs. Dexterity for half damage). The loud noise may also attract unwanted attention (roll on the Wandering Mafioso table, adding a +2 Cha bonus if one of your players has the "Whittling" feat).

[Fishbulb]

Heh.

I actually laughed out loud on that one, Captain.

[mathcam]

Indeed. I was thankfully between sips. The lab people get grumpy when they have to replace keyboards.

I agree with Antrax (and then MeMe) on mid-game modding adjustments. Although there is a certain integrity involved in not changing the game mid-play, we serve a higher purpose here: to make sure all the players have fun.

Cam

[Gaspode]

The ultimate answer: the game splits into two parallel universes running in the same thread, confusing every player but changing the game only a tiny bit. Or a thread like this inspires a mod to spontaneously run a game in which such an outcome is possible and let it run until he is forced to put his mafia career into a stage of Michael Jordan-style retirement, requiring a new mod to take over. (Just kidding, Polotet; if you ever come back and read this--I loved AU. )

To seriously answer the question: this specific case has no simple or conventional answer and doesn't need one. As for other situations--a good mod should not allow such a paradox to occur.

First of all, two roleblockers in a game is rarely a good idea, both for the sake of diversity and because paradoxes are actually possible with such a setup. Also, a roleblocker with another night action would be much too powerful for most games, so that situation shouldn't arise.

If, by some strange chance, a blocker blocks another blocker who is blocking an SK, then the mod is forced to make a decision. There are a couple of options here. One is to choose the one that makes more logical sense--just block the second blocker and let the SK make the kill.

The other option is better suited to other situations, such as the decision that's needed when the mafia kills an SK (should the SK make the kill or not?). In this case, the mod needs a pre-determined outcome for such a situation, such as deciding on a set order for night actions to occur or making a rule that actions will be taken in the order in which the choices were received (which isn't the greatedst method, but it's as good or better than random, especially when such a policy is announced prior to the start of the game).

[Norinel]

The other option is better suited to other situations, such as the decision that's needed when the mafia kills an SK (should the SK make the kill or not?). In this case, the mod needs a pre-determined outcome for such a situation, such as deciding on a set order for night actions to occur or making a rule that actions will be taken in the order in which the choices were received (which isn't the greatedst method, but it's as good or better than random, especially when such a policy is announced prior to the start of the game).

A good system that works without action-affecting actions is to say that all actions succeed simultaneously. If a killer who tries to kill gets killed, the kill goes through.

[d8P]

[OT]Me too. It's still in the end-game. AU rocks. Or rather, rocked now I'm dead. [/OT]

[Gaspode]

Good point Norinel. In fact, that's the system I generally follow (well, would follow if I was modding any games). But if a case of bad setup causes paradox, those solutions have some very interesting outcomes. (Mini Q3 was a great example of the night-time timeline strategy. Unfortunately, it died with the disappearance of Quercitron.)

[bigbenwd]

What if 2 roleblockers block each other?!

The role-blocking energies combine and destruct, dealing 10d6 damage to the two role-blockers, and 5d6 splash damage to all adjacent characters (save vs. Dexterity for half damage). The loud noise may also attract unwanted attention (roll on the Wandering Mafioso table, adding a +2 Cha bonus if one of your players has the "Whittling" feat).

whaddaya... play D&D or something?

[Flying Dutchman]

Baldur's Gate?

[cuban smoker]

Role-blockers are interesting, but should not be used excessively.

Mid game tweaking serves a higher purpose, and I support it until it becomes unfair, like... MeMe pointed out I think.

Man, being on a self'imposed timelimit sucks ass. I could write such interesting stuff... Time to go settle the bill. 22 pesos! blargh.