The return of the incompetent mod...

[Dragon Phoenix]

Inspired by my own experience in a mini and what I just saw in other threads:

Given the fact that we have a lot of people in the waiting list who want to try modding a game, should those who make a mess of it be allowed a second chance or not?

I think that once is enough. A group of experienced players (with regularly changing composition) could be the jury to decide on who is allowed to mod more games and who not.

What do you think?

[Dasquian]

Without having too firm a belief in what I'm about to say (incompetent mods annoy me too), "Surely they deserve the chance to mend their ways?"

Perhaps they shouldn't be given a third chance, but I think getting it wrong once and being forbidden forever is kinda harsh.

[ages]

I think the mod waiting list for a mini at the moment is ridiculously long, but I think that failed mods should be given a second chance, everyone makes mistakes and periods of inactivity can be beyond the persons control.

Give 'em a second chance

[shadyforce]

Until such a time as a panel of experienced players decides they deserve another chance, it is a case of one strike and your barred.

And to get another chance, I think it should be incredibly apparant you have changed and given good reason the new attempt will be different.

[gslamm]

Maybe a requirement for a experienced in-good-standing co-mod? If you convince DP or Macros or MeMe ... to oversee your comeback attempt, then you can get your mod liscence back.

[MeMe]

Maybe a requirement for a experienced in-good-standing co-mod?

I think this is a good solution. I keep a little list of "flagged mods" who I won't allow to mod another mini game without having an approved (by me) co-mod. The mods who've made it onto my "flagged" list are those of whom I'm aware have neglected/screwed up their

mini-game

modding duties. I'm sure that there are others who

should

be on this list, but if I haven't participated in one of their games or I haven't noticed it as a bystander, I might just not realize how badly they botched it.

[Macros]

i think the one strike bar is a bit harsh, but i like memes flagging idea.
definately no advancement beyond mini games if you mess up.
i would (whether im alowed to or not i dont know) forbid someone from signing up to mod a normal if they messed one up previously, or i have been informed they severely screwed up their first mini.

[MeMe]

I guess I should probably forward my "flagged mods" list to both Macros and cuban just so they'll have that information when accepting mods onto their lists. After all, criteria for running a large theme is to have

successfully

run a mini or large normal. I'd appreciate it if you both would let me know when I should have my eye out for mods who have been delinquent in your areas of jurisdiction.

[Medicated Lain]

I definately don't like the one strike and you're out deal, it's way too harsh, everyone deserves a second chance. I feel like every mod should have their game overviewed by atleast one other person before playing it. This includes experienced mods, mainly because, everyone at some point or another makes a mistake at some point or another, and sometimes it takes a fresh pair of eyes to point this out.

[blackhawk]

i agree with you Medicated Lain, if you judged my modness by my mini, i would not be able to mod, but i was grounded during my mini so i had bloojay mod for me, i also originally intended for there to be less powerful townies and more mafia to even it out, but these seem to have disappeared in my game, so i believe second chances are a good idea

[bigbenwd]

yeah, i think the flagged mods idea with the experienced co mod is a good idea. it also may be a good idea to like have jeep impliment a bad mod system. you mod bad and the forums wont let you create a thread in the game forums for like 6 months or so

[blackhawk]

yeah, i think the flagged mods idea with the experienced co mod is a good idea. it also may be a good idea to like have jeep impliment a bad mod system. you mod bad and the forums wont let you create a thread in the game forums for like 6 months or so

or how bout until you tell an experienced player your set up and they approve

[bigbenwd]

it isnt about the set up, it could be the best set up in the world, it's about the effort and attention that the mods put into their games.

[blackhawk]

ok, then im not worried a bit, but sometimes setups are hand in hand with attention, if the mod made a game he doesnt like hes not going to put much effort into it

[bigbenwd]

ah, a valid point

[bloojay]

And yes, although i tweaked blackhawk's stuff a bit, i am making MY mini and soon-to-be-ready Legend of Zelda mafia more balanced. Learning form your mistakes and giving second chances =good

[JereIC]

I think the one-strike rule is too harsh. I think a lot of people screw up their first game, but then sit back, learn from their mistakes, and then go on to moddy goodness. At the same time, there's some people who should have a little more oversite before they try to mod again. I think MeMe's flag-list is a happy compromise, but I'd say it should be more formal, or at least well known. Maybe something in the info thread?

[Norinel]

Maybe something like 3/4 of the players considering the game a failure for the mod to be on a flag-type list?

I don't have a formal list anywhere, but there are a few mods I wouldn't play a game under.

[Dragon Phoenix]

Maybe my intial suggestion was harsh, but at least it made for lively discussion.

I also have a shortlist of mods I will avoid in the future (both here and on the GL), but.....

[1] if it is that mod's turn to mod a mini again, I have to wait until a next opoortunity comes up

and more importantly:

[2] I'm not following all games here, so I do not spot crap mods if I'm not in their game.

I think a solution along the lines of MeMe's proposal is an excellent compromise.


BTW: my gripe is not so much game set-ups (which can readily be improved in a next modding attempt), but general lack of attention given to a game. Endless nights, Twilights of almost a week, and so on.

[Dragon Slayer]

Though sometimes long nights are not the mod's fault. I like Meme's idea. Also I think that it would be a good idea to have any first time mods submit their set up to an expierenced mod who won't change suff for them but mearly give them advice if the game seems like it will be unbalanced. There could a be a short list of mods who would do this. It would only take a short time to look at since they're mini's. And this isn't even as big as co modding- not at all. I'd even be willing to out my name on the list. If we got like 3-5 expierenced players to do this than along with MeMe's idea problems with both set up and inactivity will be solved.

-DS

[Dragon Phoenix]

Though sometimes long nights are not the mod's fault.

I disagree. Setting clear deadlines for night choices and sticking to them is part of the responsibility of a mod.

If real life interferes with your modding duties (illness and so on), I have no problem accepting that. But a lot of bad modding has nothing to do with real life problems.

[Dragon Slayer]

I suppose. But once or twice I've been in a situation where I had an extremely small amount of choices and really couldn't proceed until I got more. Like in I/D mafia almost everyone makes a choice every night. Luckily the nights haven't been very long thanks to my pestering, but every once and a while you get some people who take forever and need to be constantly pestered. Unfortunetly I can't afford more time to replace all the people I should (or should have who are now dead) because it's a time issue. Plus there arn't many experienced players willing to replace people day 9 into a very large game. But I'm not sayign there isn't anythign the mod can do to prevent these things. He definetly can. For Wild West I plan on taking no newbies. Only people who have completed one normal sized game. I worked really hard to make the game awesome- I'm not going to let it fall to newbs.

-DS

[Dragon Phoenix]

I typically use a 3-month experience limit for my games to avoid newbie drop-out or screw-up problems. And I have as one of my game rules that you have to get your choice in before the deadline, or else you forfeit it (only on day 1 you get a random choice instead).

[bigbenwd]

do i count as 3 months? i'm almost there

[mathcam]

While I certainly see the motivation behind DP's 3-month-rule, I have to question its place on the site. Is it really fair to newbies to disallow them from being in games because they're new? I mean we'd all (as mods)

love

to have our games filled up with experienced players who never going to drop, but if we all instituted a 3-month rule, there would be no place for newbies in normal or theme games on this site.

You'll have to pardon my bravado in the following shpeel:

I think this is all part of a similar revolution on our site. We, the players, are trying to decide how much control we have over the games. We want to know whether or not we can disallow mod requests by people we deem unwrothy, and whether or not we can choose the players we allow in our games. Are we discontinuing the tradition of free sign-ups? I consider to be one of the most sacred foundations of this site? DP's game not only reserved slots for those players he wanted in his game, but disallowed others from signing up because of it. And I don't mean to pick on DP...several mods have recently proclaimed their games to be "experienced-players only."

I certainly concede that there

are

games that would not be appropriate for a player's first game of mafia (time-travel mafia comes to mind...but even here, first-game-newbie Electra played magnificently). But I don't think mods should be able to ignore newbie's requests to play in their games. I would personally vouch that neither Yoko Kurama nor bigben would have flaked from the game if allowed to play in DP8.

So what am I saying? I think the practice should be disallowed unless we come up with a formal mechanism for doing so (and have it approved by mith). Maybe players can sign up for a themed game only after they've completed a mini, themed game, or a normal Sicily (New York) game. Or maybe games of a certain intricacy shall earn the no-newbie standing. Or maybe mods willl simply have to face the fact that making replacements is simply part of the process of running a game on this site.

Cam