Kingmaker II-Game Over

[spectrumvoid]

Gah. What a massive post flood.

This is my first time playing any kind of Kingmaker game, so I won't offer any opinion about what PJ said simply because I have no basis for comparison.

I'm leaning towards the side of box being scummy, because he added the vote after he was voted. However, I need to spend more time reading all the posts, so I'll decide tomorrow. Also nothing about Pab/Glork for now till I do the read.

[Mert]

This is my first time playing any kind of Kingmaker game, so I won't offer any opinion about what PJ said simply because I have no basis for comparison.

I think that makes you the ideal candidate to talk about some of it though. Many of the players in this game were in the last one and a few more have read through it (I know I have... it seems quite famous 'round these parts). A fresh set of eyes on some of PJ's thoughts might be exactly what is required.

[cardb0ardb0x]

come on, guys. please read my explanation in post 84... not just the bold "vote" sign. *obviously* my little vote there wasn't going to get glork lynched, i had just been instructed that people were supposed to vote a lot in this game, to give the king an idea of what everyone's thinking.

There's really not much else I can say in my defense that i didn't say already, so I'll just be quiet for now. As long as I can. I know there are a lot of posts and theres huge flooding, but please read my entire post and think about it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm amused by the lengths Twomz is going to to insinuate that I'm trying to stay under the radar. If I was trying to stay under the radar, why the hell would I inform you that I plan to never vote this game unless I become king? That's counterproductive, since the very statement draws attention to this fact.

[Mert]

come on, guys. please read my explanation in post 84... not just the bold "vote" sign. *obviously* my little vote there wasn't going to get glork lynched, i had just been instructed that people were supposed to vote a lot in this game, to give the king an idea of what everyone's thinking.

There's really not much else I can say in my defense that i didn't say already, so I'll just be quiet for now. As long as I can. I know there are a lot of posts and theres huge flooding, but please read my entire post and think about it.

Sounds to me like you're setting up future plausible deniability when your voting trail doesn't check out. If you're found to be voting for a bunch of innocents you can say you were just voting a lot because you were told to. Conversely, if you're found to be not voting enough you can say "yeah, well everyone told me off for voting too eagerly before".

The only reason I'm not going to vote for you in this post is that I already randomly voted for you and now you've given me reason not to remove it.

While I'm on the subject,

Vote: Mastermind of Sin; Vote: bird1111

All three are generally removing the effectiveness of an analysis of voting patterns in different ways. Cardb0ardb0x I've addressed above, MoS by refusing to vote at all and Bird by talking about how his votes were a joke and he doesn't see the point in votes in this game etc etc.

[cardb0ardb0x]

nonono i'm not voting for them because i was told to. i was already suspecting them, so i was told that the appropriate thing to do was to vote for them.

to keep track: i suspected pablito and glork, but only voted pablito, because i found him more suspicious (please read my previous posts). I was criticized for suspecting both of them but only voting one. So i voted for glork as well.

jeez... i have to explain like every little thing. i swear i'm not going to say anything for a while. I'm not even going to check the thread... la lala la laaaa....

[bird1111]

When did I say that I didn't see the point in votes this game?

[MrBuddyLee]

box, this game is about explaining every little thing
particularly when pj is king
for you to fade to black makes scumdar go ding ding
i recommend you buck up and sing
the names of your scumpartners so their necks we may wring

[cardb0ardb0x]

fine. lynch me. if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious. if town wins, i'll count it as a win for me even if i'm lynched in the first round.

honestly, i trust pj to make the right descision. and actually read what i write. i admit i made factual errors in my earlier posts. i know i'm easy to bandwagon. no self-respecting mafia player would NOT vote for me. Sorry for distracting everybody during the first round and wasting a lynch.

[cardb0ardb0x]

Unvote: All

.

[MrBuddyLee]

examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious.

Awwww, you're so SWEET!

Seriously, though, only Fritzler gets to lynch people around here cause they're obnoxious. People who push for lynches of the "obnoxious" regardless of contribution to the cause are more likely scum.

Sorry if it feels like you're being ganged up on, but your behavior is not pro-town so far. Maybe try changing that instead of surrendering. Give it the old college try.

So who're your scumpartners?

[Mert]

fine. lynch me. if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious. if town wins, i'll count it as a win for me even if i'm lynched in the first round.

honestly, i trust pj to make the right descision. and actually read what i write. i admit i made factual errors in my earlier posts. i know i'm easy to bandwagon. no self-respecting mafia player would NOT vote for me. Sorry for distracting everybody during the first round and wasting a lynch.

Man, I'm starting to hate the woe is me approach to these things. A protown move would be to explain your actions and play it cool. People make mistakes, it's human nature. But to just give up and say "well, fine. Lynch me if you want to" doesn't help the town and doesn't help you stay alive. You're never in a Catch 22 as there's always a counter-argument. And besides, if someone keeps pushing you into a Catch 22 type environment, that might help find scum in itself.

But yeah, move to make addition to PJ's list of things he doesn't want to see: woe is me posts.

As for Bird, I didn't say you didn't acknowledge the point of voting, I said you look like you're setting up plausible deniability for the future if someone calls you on your voting patterns. By making "joke" posts and trivialising the purpose of votes in this game, you could be setting up a mechanism whereby you can say "hey, I'm the sort of guy that makes joke votes! Don't look at my record in

too

much scrutiny!"

[Thok]

fine. lynch me. if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious. if town wins, i'll count it as a win for me even if i'm lynched in the first round.

honestly, i trust pj to make the right descision. and actually read what i write. i admit i made factual errors in my earlier posts. i know i'm easy to bandwagon. no self-respecting mafia player would NOT vote for me. Sorry for distracting everybody during the first round and wasting a lynch.

Why are you claiming? It can't possibly be a useful strategy here. (Maybe the Kingmaker should claim if on a LOE. IMOMNBTK [I may or may not be the kingmaker-since I expect to be saying this phrase a lot, I better just create an acronym now])

The only argument I can see in favor keeping you around is that you are behaving much like RandomActs did day 1 in Kingmaker I. Which lead to the lynch of a townie.

On other things:

Glork-pablito makes me more suspicious of pablito then Glork; if one of them is scum it's much more likely to be pablito, who was seemingly trying to link himself with a player of high reputation.

I agree with the trying to keep the Kingmaker as hidden as possible; I was making this argument even before the endgame justification in Kingmaker I. I'd prefer that scum doesn't get a chance to kill a kingmaker who's good at his job in hopes of replacing him with a less talented kingmaker. (IMOMNBTK).

In general I agree with PJ's big post.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

damnit Twomz,

don't apologize for your individuality or any style choices you made.

Who cut off your balls?

I scare you Shadowlurker? Why? Cuz You're scum and you are scared I will see through your facade and CRUSH you?

Shake In Fear Scumbags, Shake!

[Yosarian2]

Wow...4 pages to comment on in the last 8 hours? Interesting. Well, let me get started...

Why are you "worried" about protecting the Kingmaker at this point? They're a vanilla townie who passes the role of Kingmaker on to another vanilla townie upon their death. What makes the vanilla townie who selected PJ as king any more worth saving from nightkill than the next vanilla townie down the line? PARTICULARLY this early in the game... Your tears for the lurking Kingmaker taste crocodile-flavored to me and thus your accusations reek of an attempt to cast wrongful aspersions upon a player with a better-than-average record of hunting scum.

Actually, I think it's best that the scum not know who the kingmaker is, becuase then they could AVOID killing him. The scum tend to kill off whomever looks pro-town; it might actually be in our favor if they happen kill off a kingmaker who already looked pro-town, and then if a person who looks less clearly pro-town will become kingmaker, which would hopefully let the town avoid a mislynch and get information in the process about who tried to lynch the kingmaker. If the kingmaker gets outed too early, then the scum can just avoid killing him, and the "confirmed innocence" factor would be less useful.

[Yosarian2]

@PJ, #2C) Deal with it.

Well, I won't "deal with" you not voting. The only thing voting does in this game is give pro-town people information. It gives both the king and the kingmaker direct, easy to find and interpret information about who most of the town finds scummy and who most of the town trusts at any given point in time, both of which are absolutly vital to the town's chances of winning the game. It gives us a clear, easy to follow record of what you think, have thought, and have done during the course of the game. It lets us see who voted for who, when, and why.

Voting gives the town information the town NEEDS to have, and without the normal risks of speedlynches or accidental hammers or such. So refusing to vote is actually an even MORE anti-town action in this game then it would be in a normal game, because in a normal game scum have some solid reasons to vote; here, they have less.

So I think at this point I'm going to continue voting for you, MOS, until you make at least one vote.

[Yosarian2]

fine. lynch me. if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious. if town wins, i'll count it as a win for me even if i'm lynched in the first round.

honestly, i trust pj to make the right descision. and actually read what i write. i admit i made factual errors in my earlier posts. i know i'm easy to bandwagon. no self-respecting mafia player would NOT vote for me. Sorry for distracting everybody during the first round and wasting a lynch.

fine. lynch me. if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious. if town wins, i'll count it as a win for me even if i'm lynched in the first round.

honestly, i trust pj to make the right descision. and actually read what i write. i admit i made factual errors in my earlier posts. i know i'm easy to bandwagon. no self-respecting mafia player would NOT vote for me. Sorry for distracting everybody during the first round and wasting a lynch.

Things never, ever to do in a mafia game, if you want to win, from bad to worst:

1. Bad. Get frustrated and stop posting.

2. Worse. Actually say "I'm frustrated, I'm going to just stop posting".

3. Worse yet: Say "Just go ahead and lynch me". There's never a good reason to say this, and there's certanly no logical reason for you to give up now; you're not even the #1 suspect based on votes at the moment , I think (although I could be wrong, this game is moving so fast).

4. Worst of all: claim for no good reason, especally if you're a townie. Not as big a deal in this game as others, as almost everyone is a townie, but it's still bad; it gives the scum information and dosn't help the town at all.

Now, all of these are mistakes that newbies seem to make all the time no matter what their alignment, so I'm not going to vote for you just yet. But in general, those are all things that you should never do; they don't help, they just hurt the town and make it more likely you'll be lynched, and I think that you just moved up on everyone's list of suspicion, including mine, because of them.

[Yosarian2]

Bah. That was supposed to be a quote of posts 105 and 108, not a quote of post 108 twice. But you get the idea.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

I'm amused by the lengths Twomz is going to to insinuate that I'm trying to stay under the radar. If I was trying to stay under the radar, why the hell would I inform you that I plan to never vote this game unless I become king? That's counterproductive, since the very statement draws attention to this fact.

You can draw all the attention you want and still be very unhelpful for the town, it's called lurking in plain sight.

Vote: MOS

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm amused by the lengths Twomz is going to to insinuate that I'm trying to stay under the radar. If I was trying to stay under the radar, why the hell would I inform you that I plan to never vote this game unless I become king? That's counterproductive, since the very statement draws attention to this fact.

You can draw all the attention you want and still be very unhelpful for the town, it's called lurking in plain sight.

Vote: MOS

So? I'm not arguing whether or not it's helpful (that's another debate). I'm arguing that I'm clearly NOT trying to stay under the radar. That, in and of itself, is a ludicrous claim made by someone just trying to stir up suspicion.

[petroleumjelly]

Had a few spare moments to read the thread at the Philosophy Department, and *ugh*. Please don't claim so quickly, people: the game

just started

. Try to keep this point in mind (and remember that I made it for a reason):

B.) Putting somebody on the LoE does not mean I am going to automatically execute you: what it means is that I (or the town) find you suspicious, so you need to defend yourself, or that you are suspicious despite an attempt at defense.

DO NOT claim prematurely. If you need to claim anything (at least for today), I will be the first person to tell you to do so with my 48-hour rule

.

There is no reason to claim if there is no imminent threat of execution, which I will always be sure to tell the town about in advance. Votes do not equate to a lynch in this game, since the King has the ultimate say in who is executed.

And that also brings me back to the point about Kingmakers (which Yos and Thok correctly pointed out a few reasons as to why it is still probably in the town's best interests to keep the Kingmaker hidden, if possible. Another point is that if the scum can determine who the Kingmaker is, they may specifically have a scum player who tries to buddy with that Kingmaker (however subtly) in order to become King (which of course allows scum to very much manipulate and direct a given day's execution). The Kingmaker has a large (indirect) say in any given execution, since they determine who will do the executing, and that often correlates to choosing a King who has thoughts similar to the Kingmaker (and as I noted, if scum can slip into that category, bad things can happen for the town).

Going back to the original game, I tried this tactic to a degree (although I pretty much gave up after I had realized there were going to be confirmed townies to choose over me in that game), and since I thought the Kingmaker was Thok in that game, I tried [and failed miserably] to keep on Thok's good side (until about Day Four, when I instead tried to out him as Kingmaker to see the reactions). If the scum can convince the Kingmaker that they are town, then the Kingmaker will probably be more prone to either choose that scum as King, or to choose another person who will be more lenient towards that certain scum. It's actually kinda nice knowing the strategies scum will probably try in this game, because I already spent

last

game trying to think of them. It's pretty interesting being on the other side of the fence this time, I will be curious to see the strategies scum try to use after the game is over.

Sorry this post doesn't go much into direct suspicions, I'm a bit pressed for time and thought I would clarify those points as soon as possibile. I will have to review the cbox situation, since his claim and giving up simply struck me as frustrated... whether it was frustrated town or frustrated scum I have yet to decide. Hopefully more on that tonight.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@PJ, #2C) Deal with it.

Well, I won't "deal with" you not voting. The only thing voting does in this game is give pro-town people information. It gives both the king and the kingmaker direct, easy to find and interpret information about who most of the town finds scummy and who most of the town trusts at any given point in time, both of which are absolutly vital to the town's chances of winning the game. It gives us a clear, easy to follow record of what you think, have thought, and have done during the course of the game. It lets us see who voted for who, when, and why.

Voting gives the town information the town NEEDS to have, and without the normal risks of speedlynches or accidental hammers or such. So refusing to vote is actually an even MORE anti-town action in this game then it would be in a normal game, because in a normal game scum have some solid reasons to vote; here, they have less.

So I think at this point I'm going to continue voting for you, MOS, until you make at least one vote.

You'd better hope I become King soon, then. I'm not afraid of the big bad vote. If the King decides to execute me, so be it. I don't need votes to tell you who's scum, and I'm certainly not going to conform to anyone's wishes but my own. If you have a problem with it, I guess it sucks to be you.

[Yosarian2]

You'd better hope I become King soon, then. I'm not afraid of the big bad vote. If the King decides to execute me, so be it. I don't need votes to tell you who's scum, and I'm certainly not going to conform to anyone's wishes but my own. If you have a problem with it, I guess it sucks to be you.

Can you actually make any kind of argument why you not voting is helpful to the town?

And I don't know why you're assuming the opinion of the people who don't like your "plan" to never vote is meaningless. For one thing, our current king has already said he is going to take votes into account when making a list of people he'd consider executing. For another, making multiple people wonder why you're acting in an apparently anti-town way is bad because you never know who will be king tommorow.

[MrBuddyLee]

It's actually kinda nice knowing the strategies scum will probably try in this game, because I already spent last game trying to think of them. It's pretty interesting being on the other side of the fence this time, I will be curious to see the strategies scum try to use after the game is over.

Good stuff. I 95% believe your sincerity in making that statement. I 5% think you should be strapped to a lightning rod and tasered for trying to subtly brainwash us into thinking you're town.

[ShadowLurker]

It's actually kinda nice knowing the strategies scum will probably try in this game, because I already spent last game trying to think of them. It's pretty interesting being on the other side of the fence this time, I will be curious to see the strategies scum try to use after the game is over.

Good stuff. I 95% believe your sincerity in making that statement. I 5% think you should be strapped to a lightning rod and tasered for trying to subtly brainwash us into thinking you're town.

Although that was a joke, I would just like to say we should ALWAYS give the King the benefit of the doubt or else, this day won't be productive at all.

So for now, assume PJ is town and his intentions are good so we won't get sidetracked.


Happy with all of my votes atm.