Mini 370: Reverse Mafia - Game Over!

[chaotic_diablo]

Scum act differently according to the skill level of the player. I read through a game where Yos was scum; he has leet scum skillz. Same goes for Crashy. I don’t know about the rest of you; if someone is acting obviously scummy, I’m not going to ignore it.
And yes, at the moment everyone is potential scum, although some are more scum than others.

That's metagaming. Depending on the situation, it can be useful or useless. Have you read a game in which Yos was protown? If he uses the same strategy, it basicly makes your points moot.
No matter what kind of reasoning you use, you have to deal with the fact that most of us are not scum. You can say that we might be scum, but it doesn't change the facts.

What do you mean by ‘something plausible?’

Plausible, as in something that supports your claim/point. Simply stating that he's scum for acting in a certain way doesn't mean your right. You have to have something to prove that your right or that I'm wrong.

1. All of them. If I see someone doing something which is a scumtell, I will say so.
2. Fine. I strongly disagree with your main point.
3. They follow these behaviors because it helps them win.
3.a Not all scum are good scum.
4. Last I checked, this was a game and not a life-and-death situation. But if we must use weird metaphors, here’s a better one:
Imagine you are walking along next to a cliff when you see a little boy standing on the very edge.

‘Boy’ you say, ‘what are you doing?’
‘I need to get to the bottom of the cliff, so I’m going to jump’ he says.

‘Don’t be stupid’ you snap at him; ‘you don’t get to the bottom of cliffs by jumping! What a terrible idea!’

Then you walk off. Now, you may have saved that little boy’s life, but did you help him get to the bottom of the cliff?

5. If scum act aggressive, they get lots of attention focused on them. That is risky and lower their chances of winning.

6. Yes, Tamuz is clever, isn’t he? Well done Tamuz Smile ;

1. All of them? Be more specific. What type of scumtells are you using?
2. You haven't given me anything that disproves my point yet.
3. There's your contradiction. You say that

good

scum will follow a certain behavior, then you rely on those behaviors to catch them. When I suggest that good scum won't be predictable like that, you say that not all scum are good. Your backpeddling.
4. No, I didn't help him get off the cliff, but I helped him live another day. The point that your missing is that following a bad plan can be potentially more damaging than just staying put. I've suggested a bad plan before, however, when the players decided to follow, the end result was incredibly terrible that it put town into an even worse situation. Guess what the plan was? No Lynch!
5. That is still WIFOM. Again, if scum were to do so to avoid suspicion, you wouldn't notice them even if they were right under your nose.
6. Tamuz sure does a better job than you.

If I am right on the feeling of this post,

You are not right on the feeling of the post. I'm talking about something slightly different, but enough to make your point off-topic.

[Mr. C├â┬®sar]

re-read a few things and :

vote themanhimself

[/b]

[themanhimself]

a) Who do you think is scummiest right now?
b) What makes you think that?
c) Who, apart from yourself, is most likely to be town?
d) What reason do you have for thinking that?

a)Probably thoth. In this game lurkers are more harmful than anyone. Except scum of course.
b)Chaotic diablo
c)I understand what he is saying, and why. SInce I know I'm town, to me that is pro-town sentiment.

[al_kohaulec]

I think as it stands right now, Thoth is my favorite choice for revival.

Vote: Thoth

[Yosarian2]

Then find reasons not to vote people and flip coins.

Thats one regret I have about not getting here earlier this game, otherwise I would have suggested we play it random, rolling dice which may have either,
A) Given us a good random base town, no chance of mafia planting
or
B) Flushed out impatient scum.

Although if we had done that, we wouldn't have gotten any kind of voting record. It might have lowered the chances of us losing on day 1, but we'd be in trouble after that, with much less to go on.

[Tamuz]

Oh, I doubt people would have agreed to it, but who ascented and who disagreed would have been more valuable than some votes imo.

Even though it is moot.

[al_kohaulec]

Tamuz, you said you put the self-voters into your "I would not revive" list, but I'm the only one on that list who hasn't voted for myself. So far I've only voted for Yos and just recently Thoth. Why am I on that list?

I don't think I've even been trying to get revived by day 1.

[al_kohaulec]

EBWOP:

Al: among the over posting strategy that he is showing, his attitude towards M4yhem is also scummy. He waffles fiercly on M4yhem, and combining that with the way m4yhem rubs me wrong I see a strong negative connection betwixst the two.

And what I'm reading here is that how I'm acting towards M4yhem is scummy, and since M4yhem 'rubs you the wrong way' you find me scummy? Could you please explain that? I never understood what you meant here. It sounds like you're saying we're both scum.

[Thoth]

a) Who do you think is scummiest right now?

a)Probably thoth. In this game lurkers are more harmful than anyone. Except scum of course.

Are you accusing me of lurking here? I did not post in the weekend indeed, but that's something I rarely do. If you're worried about lurkers there are some better candidates around.

Then find reasons not to vote people and flip coins.

Thats one regret I have about not getting here earlier this game, otherwise I would have suggested we play it random, rolling dice which may have either,
A) Given us a good random base town, no chance of mafia planting
or
B) Flushed out impatient scum.

Why would you want to play it random? That's basically assuming that actual discussion makes the town less likely to win (and it does not really make for a fun game).


At the moment I'm leaning towars chaotic_diablo. His posts seem to make sense and he has done nothing that makes me not want to vote him.

chaotic_diablo - I don't know where you get the idea that I will be non-contributive once I've been revived. Yes, I've pretty much avoided all the speculation about the set-up, but that's mainly because I haven't really decided on the best strategy, and because I think it can be dangerous to formulate elaborate gameplans already, considering that the mafia already had a chance to discuss things and most likely put a lot more thought into it than the average, independent townie.

I was not aware that the mafia already had a chance to discuss this and I could not find it in the game descriptions. There was not by any chance something in your role PM similar to 'You're scum with ..., as the game starts with 3 semi-days without a night you get some time to discuss strategy with your scum partners outside the thread'?

Not going to vote for:
crashtextdummy - potential scumslip, not posting his thoughts after announcing to do so later.
lordy - only 1 post yet, no original content
M4yhem - I disagree with most of his posts
Mr.Cesar - no content whatsoever.
Tamuz - low content
TheManHimself - don't like the early claim, would still be a dangerous gambit for scum though. I would not put a roleblocker in this game, but I also would not be willing to risk my game this early assuming this mod does not put one in.
Twito - not enough posts (with some content though, so better than having many posts without)
Yellowbounder - not enough posts

I'm potentially willing to vote for all others.

[M4yhem]

We need more discussion before we agree to revive me.

Note the fallacy here...

Er, what fallacy? I believe myself to be the best candidate for revival, yeah, but at the same time I want more discussion because firstly, it gives us more info with which to find scum and townies, which makes deciding who I vote for tomorrow easier. Secondly, more discussion will help convince you to revive me. Thirdly, I enjoy reading other peoples opinions and arguments; I wouldn’t be playing this game if I didn’t.

Tamuz-Did you see I provided reasoning for my self-vote in my first post, and in some others? What did you think of my reasoning? Do you agree that townies might also have reasons for being eager. Also, what do you think of the discussion C_D is having with me? And do you realize that Chaotic_Diablo and Yos have been voting for each other? Where’s the diversity in that? Also, for you records, I would have strongly opposed a random plan, because it leaves us with no information and because it wouldn’t have been much fun.

Al_Kohaulec- I am concentrating on myself because I am the best candidate. I gave reasons at the start, did you read them? I also gave a list of people I would revive tomorrow. I think we need to hear more from the others, not from me.

Chaotic_Diablo:

In gaming, it's any kind of game or subgame, especially a psychological one, in which a player is given a set of apparently equal choices where one or more is completely wrong. In such games one often may try to use what he knows of his opponent to make a better choice, but this often leads to recursive reasoning, as anything that one player could think of is something another player could think of, in the form of "But that's just what he wants me to think, so I'll do the opposite…but maybe that's what he want's me to think…so I'll not do the opposite…but maybe that's what he want's me to think…etc, etc."

This is the actual definition of WIFOM. Now how can youn consider the things I said about Yos and the predictions I made about how scum would act to be WIFOM?

My point is not moot, because my point was that Yos might be scum despite being helpful. But yes, Yos seems to play almost the same as town.

Fact: Not all of you are scum. Also Fact: From my point of view, any of you is potentially scum at the moment.

. There's your contradiction. You say that

good

scum will follow a certain behavior, then you rely on those behaviors to catch them. When I suggest that good scum won't be predictable like that, you say that not all scum are good. Your backpeddling.

No backpeddling, because I disagree that good scum wouldn’t be predictable. They will use the behaviour that helps them win, even if I say in thread that that is what they’re doing.
4. The problem with this argument is that I didn’t suggest a plan at all. I explained

how I thought scum might act

and you freaked out for some reason.
5. I’m not sure you’re reading what I write. I

would

notice them, because by being overaggressive they draw attention to themselves,

including my attention.

.
6.This point is basically useless flamebait, isn’t it?

Mr. Cesar- Any reason for that vote?

Thoth- Are you more likely, on average, to disagree with other townies or with scum? Which posts do you disagree with? Do you agree with the things Chaotic_Diablo is saying to me?

[al_kohaulec]

Al_Kohaulec- I am concentrating on myself because I am the best candidate. I gave reasons at the start, did you read them? I also gave a list of people I would revive tomorrow. I think we need to hear more from the others, not from me.

Ok, *listens* They say you're not the best candidate. There's probably a reason for that.

My point is not moot, because my point was that Yos might be scum despite being helpful. But yes, Yos seems to play almost the same as town.

Something is considered a true WIFOM argument when both sides of the argument are equally appealing. You admit here that there is little if any difference in Yos's play when he's town and when he's scum, so both sides are equally appealing.

That

makes it WIFOM.

Fact: Not all of you are scum. Also Fact: From my point of view, any of you is potentially scum at the moment.

You can use the same argument in a regular game. This holds true for any game, this doesn't mean you have to refuse to help anybody and look out only for yourself. If you're town, we can win without you being revived, so don't look at that as the only option.

. There's your contradiction. You say that

good

scum will follow a certain behavior, then you rely on those behaviors to catch them. When I suggest that good scum won't be predictable like that, you say that not all scum are good. Your backpeddling.

No backpeddling, because I disagree that good scum wouldn’t be predictable. They will use the behaviour that helps them win, even if I say in thread that that is what they’re doing.
4. The problem with this argument is that I didn’t suggest a plan at all. I explained

how I thought scum might act

and you freaked out for some reason.
5. I’m not sure you’re reading what I write. I

would

notice them, because by being overaggressive they draw attention to themselves,

including my attention.

.
6.This point is basically useless flamebait, isn’t it?

Reading through this, it's looking incredibly scummy. Before you immediately click "Quote" and start ranting towards, me, I want you to stop and think. If you are town, will ranting at everybody help make you look like town? Will it help us all win? Probably not. You need to start posting in a more progressive manner, the way you post now makes you look like scum. I say this because the way I'm reading your posts gives me the feeling you could be simply a very irritated townie, and it'll probably look bad for me to be protecting you, but although I see some of your actions as scummy, I'd rather not have the town single you out for it.

[Thoth]

Thoth- Are you more likely, on average, to disagree with other townies or with scum? Which posts do you disagree with? Do you agree with the things Chaotic_Diablo is saying to me?

The huge posts in which you and C_D go back and forth over 6 points I basically agree with C_D on all points.

[Yosarian2]

Mayhem does have one valid point; in order to be sucessfull, scum have to try to be noticed in order to be revived, as opposed to a normal game where scum have to try to be not noticed in order to be not lynched, so scum might be more active then one would normally expect. However, the problem is that I would also expect the good guys to act the same way; to post a lot, to share thoughts, to discuss things, ect, because that's the only way they're going to find the scum, AND because they also want to be noticed in order to be revived just like the scum do.

[al_kohaulec]

That is a good point by M4yhem, Yos, but as far as our lurkers go, I don't think that's any reason to confirm them, I admit I see even lurkers more active than normal as scum, but usually lurkers remain lurkers nonetheless. I don't know that I'd try to pull too much out of it.

[chaotic_diablo]

m4yhem, WIFOM already covered by al_ko, I won't go over it again.

No backpeddling, because I disagree that good scum wouldn’t be predictable. They will use the behaviour that helps them win, even if I say in thread that that is what they’re doing.
4. The problem with this argument is that I didn’t suggest a plan at all. I explained how I thought scum might act and you freaked out for some reason.
5. I’m not sure you’re reading what I write. I would notice them, because by being overaggressive they draw attention to themselves, including my attention..
6.This point is basically useless flamebait, isn’t it?

4. You accused me of not having a plan. Here are you exact words:

And what’s your alternative plan? Oh, I’m sorry, you didn’t make one, did you? NOT HELPFUL.

Your definitely backpeddling.
5. I'm reading, but your straying off your main point.
6. Yes, it is a flame. However, I'm not the only one who can be accused of it. If you want, I can pick out several examples.

Thoth, you took out 9 people on your list. The only ones left are al_ko and I. Is there a chance that you might reconsider adding more onto that list in the near future?

I don't quite agree with the random thing for reasons already explained by others.

At the moment, Thoth is on top with Tamuz second. No one else is on the list yet, but I'll add more.

vote Thoth

[Yosarian2]

That is a good point by M4yhem, Yos, but as far as our lurkers go, I don't think that's any reason to confirm them, I admit I see even lurkers more active than normal as scum, but usually lurkers remain lurkers nonetheless. I don't know that I'd try to pull too much out of it.

Oh, I agree. Lurking might not be pro-scum in this game, but it's certanly not pro-town either.

Ceaser and the other lurkers; if you are pro-town and want to be revived, you have to convince us that you're pro-town and that if revived you're likely to make good decisions.

[Tamuz]

107: Al, you waffled on M4yhem in the same post. At the beggining you attacked him, and say you wouldn't support him, then towards the end you took the opposite stance. That isn't consistant play in my eyes, thats why I got the bad feeling and why I placed you in that list.

108: Thoth, I think random might just as well be as good as anything to start this game. I may be wrong, who knows, but in the hypothetical situation that I proposed the following discussion

would

have told us alot, wouldn't it?

109: The fallacy is the entire phrase. You state that like it is an inevitability, something already decided that we'll revive you. Reasoning for your self vote, bah shit piss and any other word that gives negative connotations. We could all give reasons why we vote ourselves as good as yours, that doesn't mean shit. I don't care why YOU want to vote you, you have a benefit of a PM that we don't, I want to know why WE should vote YOU. Plus, you seem over-zealous, like scum thinking they need to be revived prior to D1 or they'll lose.
Oh right, and you ask Mr. Cesar to explain his self-vote, uh huh... coo, thanks for the confession.

112: Uh huh Yos, so activity in general is all scumtacular, we must judge elsewhere then.

List has no variance.

[al_kohaulec]

107: Al, you waffled on M4yhem in the same post. At the beggining you attacked him, and say you wouldn't support him, then towards the end you took the opposite stance. That isn't consistant play in my eyes, thats why I got the bad feeling and why I placed you in that list.

Ah, ok thanks.

Earlier I found some of his actions scummy, but not in the way scum would be doing it. I thought maybe he was a townie playing really bad, but his play only worsened, and it's looking even scummier now. I'm going down to having very little trust in that he could be town now.



And thanks for a good reason for M4yhem's fallacy, I didn't know how to say it.


Right now I think I'd be in favor of a Thoth and Tamuz revival. I'll have to think it over some more though. (yes I realize this might result in me not getting revived for a long time, but I'd rather try to do what's best for the town.)

I can't remember if this was answered anywhere before or not, but after the three are revived, are the limbo players still able to post even though they are in limbo?

[Tamuz]

I guess since Thoth seems to be a much-supported player I should probably take a more in-depth look at him and take a stance.

pbp (posts in reference to Thoth's post when sorted just to his posts)

0: Supports Yos
Assumes scum wouldn't have power-roles (later refuted by mafia dual-actions, kill & RB)
Large doubt on TMH, although indirectly placed, rather on his role.

1: Refuting addressed above. Yes-Mans Yos

2: Support Yos
Being able to extrapolate on our situation is good, not necessarily pro-town, but it seems helpful enough (if geniune) ergo support for revival.

3: votes Yos
Perhaps hinting towards scum-buddies to move towards different camps of thought.
Denounces M4yhem

4: Rebuts claim he lurks
espouses c_d
Notes potential of CTD to be informed, ergo in the minority.
Basic runthrough list

5: Aligns with c_d
Denounces M4yhem


Thats it--I think Thoth actually is lower on content than he claims me to be (but yes, it is true I'm not very high in content, but we are both kettles calling the other black pots). At this moment I would not vote for Thoth, he remains on the list of people I could be convinced to vote for, but I will need convincing and his posts aren't doing it for me.

Also, note his patter or support Yosx4 c_dx2. Honestly, I don't trust one so closely affixed on Yos, not just because I don't see what would exactly make Yos town, but also he could be coat-tailing Yos, c_d as well (yet here comes some personal bias of mine, I'd prefer seeing c_d revived over many here in the town). If not in the pre-game, but potentially have the living do a good turn for him when the game starts fo' real.

Synopsis:

I wouldn't vote for
M4yhem
Mr. Cesar
yellowbounder

I could be conviced to vote for
CrashTextDummie
Thoth
Twito
themanhimself
lordy

I'd vote for:
Tamuz
chaotic_diablo

Yos removed, since it is pointless to say I wouldn't vote him.

[M4yhem]

Reading through this, it's looking incredibly scummy. Before you immediately click "Quote" and start ranting towards, me, I want you to stop and think. If you are town, will ranting at everybody help make you look like town? Will it help us all win? Probably not. You need to start posting in a more progressive manner, the way you post now makes you look like scum. I say this because the way I'm reading your posts gives me the feeling you could be simply a very irritated townie, and it'll probably look bad for me to be protecting you, but although I see some of your actions as scummy, I'd rather not have the town single you out for it.

Ok, I hear ya. This aggressiveness is my playstyle; it has been getting me into trouble a lot though, so I guess I need to adjust it slightly. In my defense, or not depending on how sympathetic you are feeling, I’ve only played two games on this site, and four in total, so I may not be at the same standard of the rest of you yet. And yes, I am getting slightly irritated; this is because from my point of view I’m been doing everything I can think of to help the town; suggesting ideas, giving my opinions, looking for scum and so on, and all I’ve gotten in return is grief. I’m willing to accept that at least part of the problem is a failure on my part to communicate with you; please give me another chance?

Let’s agree to disagree about the WIFOM argument. You are right that it’s not taking us anywhere good and I’m ready to move on.

Thoth- Ok, fine. That’s your prerogative. Just try to remember that disagreeing with you does not make me scum.

Yos- Yes, one of the problems with this setup is that townies and scum have very similar goals; at least at the moment. Which is why we have to be extra-super-careful, today and tomorrow.

Al- I wasn’t saying lurkers were confirmed. The good thing about this setup is that it seems to punish scum more than town for lurking; because more active players will probably be revived first and scum are fewer in number than town.

Chaotic_Diablo- I offer you a peace deal. Let’s agree to disagree? Anyway, I’d like a little more reasoning on Thoth- he hasn’t posted much of interest to me. I’m sorry if I flamed you- it wasn’t intentional; I just tend to be a little too passionate about this game sometimes.

Tamuz- Okay. If you think that’s a fallacy, go ahead.
But on the Mr. Ceaser thing- er, what? If I ask you for reasoning, would that make us buddies?
I disagree that activity is scumtacular. I had an active playstyle; Lordy lurks in all the games I’m in with him. Activity is basically a null tell.
And there’s no need to swear. If I manage to stop myself, so can you.

Al- Yeah, limbo players can post.

Unvote

I surrender my fate to the will of the people.

I’m really not feeling the Thoth wagon. He’s said almost nothing, and what he has said has not been helpful in my eyes. Someone pro-thoth explain it using small, friendly words please?

Al_Kohaulec has gone up on my townie list. I think scum would gain more from leaving me to tie myself in knots than they would by helping me.

The more Tamuz posts, the less I want to revive him.

Need to hear more from CrashTextDummie and TheManHimself.

Here’s an important question- do we trust Yos? Chaotic_Diablo and Alky both have strong positive connection to him.

[al_kohaulec]

Yos removed, since it is pointless to say I wouldn't vote him.

And alko, what? I'm not good enough for your "I wouldn't vote for" list anymore?

Hmm.. the connection with Yos is something I'll have to look into with Thoth. My main reasoning for not wanting to revive C_D is because he seemed so strongly attached to Yos, so I'll have to look at and judge Thoth on this.

unvote

for now.

[Tamuz]

Ooops, yeah your status quo al, although I'm considering bumping you towards the middle.

M4yhem... dear m4yhem

Tamuz- Okay. If you think that’s a fallacy, go ahead.

It isn't whether I want to think it is a fallacy or not. That is a fallacy as they are defined. Argumentative reasoning I believe (?), it is illogical debate. Not my oppinion.

But on the Mr. Ceaser thing- er, what? If I ask you for reasoning, would that make us buddies?

Well it just came out mixed in my mind that you actually wanted/needed someone to explain their self-vote in this game. I found that a bit... well warped, I can't put this in words well, but something about the contrast of you 'explaining' why to vote for yourself, and then turning around and wondering why another person would vote for themself...

I disagree that activity is scumtacular. I had an active playstyle; Lordy lurks in all the games I’m in with him. Activity is basically a null tell.

Basically, but it still has potential to be a tell. In the lordy situation that is metagaming. If you wanted to make him active, lynch him in every game D1 unless he becomes active, the results would be interesting (but I'm not sure recommendable). And I think you misread my statement. I said

Uh huh Yos, so activity in general is all scumtacular, we must judge elsewhere then.

This means activity in all its forms, major, minor and lack thereof is scummy. Because this weighs equally on everyone, because everyone fits in one of these categories we must use other qualities to judge scumminess.

And there’s no need to swear. If I manage to stop myself, so can you.

Damn straight I could, but I'd rather use explatives as long as they aren't directed. Then again if I hadn't used hard words your OMGUS feeling towards me probably wouldn't be as harsh.

[ChannelDelibird]

The Future's Bright, The Future's Vote Count:

yellowbounder- 1 (yellowbounder)
themanhimself- 1 (Mr. Cesar)
Thoth- 1 (chaotic_diablo)
al_kohaulec- 1 (lordy)

Not voting [8]: Yosarian2, themanhimself, Tamuz, CrashTextDummie, Thoth, M4yhem, al_kohaulec, Twito

7 to revive. Yosarian2 is a no-no.

[Yosarian2]

This means activity in all its forms, major, minor and lack thereof is scummy. Because this weighs equally on everyone, because everyone fits in one of these categories we must use other qualities to judge scumminess.

One difference between the town and the scum, though, is that the scum already know who's town and who's not. I'm thinking that the scum, while trying to be active, probably aren't going to want to commit to an opinion on too many people; they don't want to annoy anyone because they need their votes, and they don't want to either say they trust their buddies or that they don't. That's also the place a lot of scum tells and hints about scum connections and such come from. So that's partly why I was suggesting that more people start voting and unvoting; we really need to start building a voting record.

For this reason that I would not expect a scum to expect the way you are acting. Of course, there's an element of WIFOM in it, but while activity in general is ambiguas at best, actually attacking and defending multiple people in a changing way as time goes on is still probably a pro-town activity, as it's somewhat dangerous for scum.

vote:Tamuz

. Again, not a strong vote, but I'd say that as of this moment your detailed and logical thoughts about everyone else, and your attacks on multiple people, are something I would expect scum to be less likely to do then town.

[chaotic_diablo]

Chaotic_Diablo- I offer you a peace deal. Let’s agree to disagree? Anyway, I’d like a little more reasoning on Thoth- he hasn’t posted much of interest to me. I’m sorry if I flamed you- it wasn’t intentional; I just tend to be a little too passionate about this game sometimes.

Peace deal is accepted. As of now, I'm unsure of my Thoth vote. Like I said, tamuz makes a good point.

Al_ko, I haven't really questioned your claim(not role), but I'd like to do so now. Could you display some examples of a strong connection with Yos?

I have nothing to add that will not give us any new information. Everyone else has just about covered it.