[OLD] Open Setup Discussion and Nominations

[Yosarian2]

I would nominate several setups (4:7 nightless, Pie C9, Yosarian's), but I'm not looking to pick up games at the moment.

Is Yosarian's day or night start? Personally I'd drop one townie and still do night start... It's true the two power roles are not as good at investigating as cops, but they can potentially stop some nightkills.

Night start. I wanted to do it with those numbers for the reason that then, if either doc manages to prevent one kill at any point in the game, it buys the town an entire extra day, which I think adds a little more tension then an odd-number start would.

[Yosarian2]

It's not that I don't like townies (which are almost crucial to an open setup), but that I don't like a low scum ratio. I think it's dull, and vulnerable to being screwed up by one or two inept scum players.

It's often said that a setup should have from 1/4 to 1/3 scum. I wouldn't want to play with less than that.

I would tend to think that those numbers should only apply to a game with investigative roles. I would go with a little less then that for a large no-investigative roles game, and even less then that for a mini with no investigative roles (as in a mini game, the town has less time to see voting patterns and such, which are epsecally vital for this kind of game).

Mathmatically, I would actually thing adding two more townies would make sensebut I would think that in a real game the ability to keep the more "useful" players (experenced players/semi-cleared players/active players) alive might counteract that to some extent.

[Fiasco]

Night start. I wanted to do it with those numbers for the reason that then, if either doc manages to prevent one kill at any point in the game, it buys the town an entire extra day, which I think adds a little more tension then an odd-number start would.

Well, that's another way in which this setup disfavors the town compared to 3:14-with-day-start. Having an odd number alive by day benefits the town; the 3:14 town will always have that advantage, while yours may or may not depending on the number of failed kills.

[Yosarian2]

Night start. I wanted to do it with those numbers for the reason that then, if either doc manages to prevent one kill at any point in the game, it buys the town an entire extra day, which I think adds a little more tension then an odd-number start would.

Well, that's another way in which this setup disfavors the town compared to 3:14-with-day-start. Having an odd number alive by day benefits the town; the 3:14 town will always have that advantage, while yours may or may not depending on the number of failed kills.

Having an odd number alive at day benifits the town if there are exactally 2 deaths every day.

It's just a preference of mine, but I don't like it how if there's a newbie game with 1 doc and no cop, if the doc saves someone, it dosn't buy the town an extra lynch; in fact, it puts the town on evens, which can actually hurt the town. I much prefer a setup where if a doc manages to save one person, it helps the town in a clear way.

[Fiasco]

I'd like to nominate "Basic Twelve Player", so that it's now the sole nomination leader.

Here's some more ideas for setups that were mentioned in the Open Setup thread.

Kelly Chen mentioned another C9 variant:

Double Cop C9 (7 players)

1 mafia roleblocker
1 mafia goon
2 sane cops
3 citizens
day start

some others that may or may not be suitable:

Polar Animals Mafia (12 players)

mafia:
1 walrus (decides each night whether the vig gets a night action)
1 penguin (decides each night whether the doc gets a night action)
1 polar bear (decides each night whether the cop gets a night action)

SK:
1 seal (decides each night whether the walrus, penguin, and polar bear get their blocking actions)

town:
1 vig
1 doc
1 cop
5 townies

night start

Masons and Monks Mafia (12 players)

2 mafia goons
2 werewolves
8 townies
2 of the above are masons (selected randomly from non-mafia)
2 of the above are monks (selected randomly from non-wolves)
night start; the first cross-kill in both directions fails

[Yosarian2]

I'll nominate:

"Strawberry III" (13 players)

3 mafia
1 cop
9 citizens
night start

Pie C9 (7 players)

1 mafia roleblocker
1 mafia goon
1 cop
1 doctor
3 citizens
day start

Cop C9 (7 players)

2 mafia
1 cop
4 citizens
day start

I like games where an early cop claim-doc protection isn't the best stratagy.


Anyway, about the possible balance issues in some of these games, the good thing with these open setups is we can run them a few times and see how they go. If my doc setup, or one of the other setups, seems to be usually won by the town or usually one by the scum, we can always add or subtract a few townies to balance it out.

[mith]

My original intention was for each person to have one nomination (or some limited number); but I think this will work better anyway.

The setups thus far are listed in the opening post (I've assumed that anyone posting a setup here is nominating it as well). I haven't done links to them yet, mostly because I want the links to be to the wiki and since we'll be switching wiki software soon there's no point doing it twice.

Our first two to take signups will be Basic Twelve Player and Pie C9.

Speaking of which, any thoughts on names for some of these games? As I've mentioned to pie in chat, "Pie C9" isn't a particularly descriptive name, nor does it really make sense - the "C9" name is derived from the randomness in the setup, whereas the only thing Pie C9 has with C9 is the number of players/Mafia. Similarly with my use of Vanilla over Mountainous - Mountainous is less descriptive of what the setup actually is. I don't mind common nicknames being used for some of these, but I think it would be helpful to have "good" names for any of these setups that get run repeatedly.

I'll have some comments on balance and whatnot when I'm back in England and wikiing.

[GreenLiquid]

Polar animals sounds interesting, i'll go ahead and /second it.

[Fiasco]

"Pie C9" -> "Pie Micro" or "Bloptor Micro"
"Cop C9" -> "Donut Micro" or "Cop Micro"
"Double Cop C9" -> "Double Donut Micro" or "Bloppercop Micro"

Polar Animals (Needs to be "Unthemed")

By "Unthemed" do you mean the role names should be changed? Walrus was already the "official" name for that role, and to my knowledge the other polar animal roles didn't have a name yet, so I thought, might as well use these.

[Kelly Chen]

Is walrus the same as tooth fairy except for alignment?

[Fiasco]

IIRC, yes.

edit: here's the source; actually the "polar animals mafia" walrus is slightly different in that it's a full mafia member rather than spy-like.

[Wacky]

Nominate 4:8 Nightless Vanilla.

I think Mountainous is balanced, usually 2/3 chance of scum win given random play means just over 1/2 chance of scum win in real life.

[Fiasco]

usually 2/3 chance of scum win given random play means just over 1/2 chance of scum win in real life.

How do you know?

[Max]

Another Set-Up


2 Arsonists
3 mafia
5 civilians
1 magistrate
1 [http://www.princeton.edu/~mafia/vr14.htm]govenor
1 cupid
1 Judas & Saulus
2

town

bookies (choice between cop or doc)

[Kelly Chen]

Any particular concept behind that setup Max?

[Pie_is_good]

"Blopter" is too cool of a word to not include in Pie C9's official name.

Just sayin'

[Save The Dragons]

2 SK (who know who the other is)
2 Vig
2 Doc
10 Townie

Night Start

[Yosarian2]

2 SK (who know who the other is)
2 Vig
2 Doc
10 Townie

Night Start

Do the SK's have to kill each other to win? Iif so, I could see that game often ending on night 1 with the SK's killing each other right away, both hoping the other SK will delay in killing him.

[mith]

My gut says it wouldn't be balanced anyway, even if it were just a 2 person Mafia group with 2 kills per night.

(Also, it doesn't qualify as a normal.)

Update to the nominations coming later.

[mith]

Ok, Pie C9 filled a few days ago and is running, so nominations for that are open again.

To take its place, I've thrown in a nomination for "Cop C9", mostly on the basis that it was the only seven player game that had been seconded.

Fiasco, I know where the Walrus name comes from. What I meant by that is essentially that, as with the setup names, while obviously some role names are going to have been around so long/be popular for some reason/just be cool, I very much prefer descriptive names. Theme-ing it up for the sake of it is something I am trying to avoid.

(As for suggestions: Controller or Handler, perhaps?)

[Wacky]

usually 2/3 chance of scum win given random play means just over 1/2 chance of scum win in real life.

How do you know?

Just approximate guess based on experience.

[Kelly Chen]

I would just say "Mafia Tooth Fairy."

[Fiasco]

I'd suggest calling it Switch Mafia, with a Vig Switch, Cop Switch, Doc Switch, and Master Switch. Though do note the other meaning of "Seal".

I guess that a simple HP-based game (like 3 vs 6, nightless, HP start at 10, no HP gain, hits every 48 hours) would be too experimental to play it as an open game? Or what about a simple Kingmaker game?

Just approximate guess based on experience.

"Just over 1/2" is much more precise than you should be able to guess from experience. Has there been even one game won by the town where you could calculate probabilities? To my knowledge all mountainous games so far were won by the scum.

[Save The Dragons]

yeah i pulled that setup out of my ass

I'll do better from now on, if I post anymore.

[Max]

Any particular concept behind that setup Max?

Well It has lots of confusion and games with confusion are fun