Mastin Academy

[AngryPidgeon]

I am a double doctorate with PHDs in both Murder and Powerf***ing, as well as a Masters degree in Spamming.

I have a PHD in sarcasm from the Thor School of and a Bachelor's Degree in spamposting from Buldermar U.

EDIT: And I minored in bad puns : P

[mastin2]

Add me for sure.

Sure thing!

Can I be a Teacher's Assistant

I consider you one already.

You're a stronger player than I am, AP, as both town and scum. You're working at being good at MD, too. You're not quite at the level where I'd say you'd be a Professor Mafia candidate, but if you stay around the site and keep posting in MD, in a year or two, you'll definitely have surpassed me in those areas just like you have as a player. Heck, if you began teaching, you'd probably be a damn-good teacher, too, again getting into the big-leagues within a year or two. I definitely respect your feedback, and consider it vastly helpful. You might ask "What Would Mastin Do?" now, but I am dead serious when I say that, within a couple of years, I'll be asking "What Would AP Do?" (As I said, it's not quite there

yet

. But it's getting closer and closer.)

[Om]

What do I do when I feel like reaching out of computer screen and smacking people?

-I jest.Dx

Real thing, let's say player X end's up bringing up one or two really good points but due to his other posts he is put in that dreaded VI category by whole town block and is easy to discredit, how does that player X convince others?

[mastin2]

Just letting you know, I've seen the other questions, and am working on typing out my responses now.

[Espeonage]

I kind of want someone to read games I've played and give me pointers, but I've never actually had a game in the past three years that I'm actually proud of.

[mastin2]

As a timid player, I'm not averse to trying to stand toe to toe with intelligent posters that are more articulate and methodical than I, however I have great difficulty in actually making headway (I always noticed my play as an SE in newbies as apposed to my play elsewhere on the site is vastly different) into getting those that I think are scum lynched or wagoned as after a few posts of back and forth I find myself getting beat down. What are the best ways to fix this trend to make myself feel louder, especially in larger games where there are more competing voices?

In general? I don't advocate getting "louder". If you look at my play in games, for instance, I am decently-charismatic and am generally listened to...but I'm not loud. Not in the sense I think of being the word "loud", anyway. That word brings up connotations of the Fate school of thought, and CAPS LOCK ALLIANCE. If your playstyle is naturally aggressive, sure! That can work for ya. It works for people like kuribo and all that.

But if you're generally a more "reserved" player? Heck no, that's not you. Don't try to make it you. If you did, then you're probably going to get lynched for fakerage regardless of your alignment. Because it's not you. It's not your style. Don't try to force it to be your style. Instead, you should focus not on being loud, but on having your voice be heard. Being loud is one method OF making your voice be heard--but it is not the only one!

Often-times, it's not the person with the best arguments who wins. Often-times, it's also not the "loudest" player who wins. (At least, not in the long-term. I call these tactics strong-arming. They'll work for a while, as people get pushed into obedience. But eventually, they'll rebel, and bite back hard.) It's the player in-between the two that gets it. By which, I mean...it's the player who works with the others. They're not off in their own world randomly posting things which are insightful but completely out-of-touch with the game. They're not shoving their reads down others' throats. They're people who, when talking to other people, come across as being reasonable individuals and want to work together with them.

Thus, the solution to your problem isn't that you need to shout more. It's that you need to talk more, to the players rather than AT them. As town, you work as a team. As town, you need to collaborate in order to win. As town, you need to trust other town players. So as town, you need to work on gaining that common ground and working together to lynch the scum. (And as scum, you need to be able to fake having done the same!) Appealing to specific players is a great way to build that corroboration, and make your standing in the town be much higher.

Basically, there will be players who are timid and don't interact with others. Interact with them! Try to see where they're coming from, explain where you're coming from, and see if you can work together. There will be players who're trying to force others to obey them. Don't obey nor disobey them. Talk to them, ask where they're coming from, explain where you're coming from, and try to work towards having that common ground. They might not listen, but here's the key part--your effort at trying will look good, if not to the loud player, than to the other players, who see you trying to work with a person who normally can't be worked with.

I think you can see where a lot of this is going. It builds off of my lesson on "appearing to be town". Basically, overall, the best way to get a strong standing in a town is to actually treat the other players reasonably and to treat them as equals, who you're working with. Try and make it so that you're a team, or as scum, make it look like you are a team. You'll quickly find you have a long list of allies, if done right. People don't like lynching people that are friendly, nice people. It's one reason why Mastin mislynches are far and few between. I don't not get lynched because I'm an excellent player. I avoid getting lynched because I'm a player who treats others with respect.

In showing that respect, in showing that cooperation, in showing that friendship, that bond, I build a sense of kinship with the town, working with them to get scum lynched. It's not a perfect method, obviously. But it's a method that works remarkably well. People like being treated as a person. So if you do so, if you treat everyone as the person they are, and respect that they have skills as a player...you'll be able to get them to do the same for you. It's as simple as that! Treat others as you expect to be treated.

And in this case...
If you want others to listen to your reads...listen to theirs!

That's really all it takes.

[mastin2]

One question comes to mind: Is tunneling something to be avoided? Is there a "right" way to tunnel?

The problem with tunneling is in going in thinking about tunneling. There is a good way to tunnel--and that's to not actively be tunneling.

I know, that phrase is getting ridiculously overused in these lectures, but to explain on this one--you can show quite a bit of conviction in a read. But it should never be absolute. I have a golden rule in my games. No matter how much it might appear I have violated it, I never, EVER have, and always I keep it in mind. That rule? "Fit the reads to the evidence, not the evidence to the reads." And this is the central part of "tunneling". I can hold a strong belief off of the evidence--but the moment I begin to morph the evidence to fit the read, I've gone too far.

One way I go about this which is surprisingly effective is that I acknowledge alternative viewpoints. I know, it sounds bad. It sounds stupid, like it's counter-productive. Pointing out how the read could be wrong? Surely that's just leaving a door for backtracking! Surely that's just wish-washing! And while this may be true some of the times, when it's done right...it's not. Instead of displaying a lack of confidence in your read, doing so properly will help to emphasize why you feel so strongly ABOUT that read.

I actually have a fairly good recent example of this! In Antihero Reboot mafia, I talked to EspeciallyTheLies. I explained the circumstances behind my scumread on her. That it was possible she was town. But then I laid out in explicit detail precisely why I felt she was scum. It showed that I wasn't confirmation biasing her. I wasn't writing her off as scum without a second thought. I had her as scum because that's what the evidence was telling me. (Granted, I was a mason, so there wouldn't be accusations of me backtracking, but there could have been, on me being wishy-washy. There weren't, though, because I handled it well.)

When done right, you accentuate the strength of your case, rather than degrading it. Now, I can't tell you how to 100% replicate this every time. But I can give a few pointers. When you make a case, you have to make sure you actually believe that's what the evidence says. Don't make up BS about it. And when you make the case, I strongly advise looking it over, thinking for a second, and analyzing it a bit, slightly objectively. Run through things. "Am I emotional about this case?" (You need to step back and reassess; chances are, your case--being emotionally-driven--has morphed the evidence to the read.) "Is this actually possible? Or even probable?" "Is this actually something I believe is a legitimate point?" And so on and so forth. Go through that mental checklist, and then, when finished, go through one more. "What's the other side?"

And believe me! No scum player's bad enough that there won't be another side! Look at it, and run through the reverse. "Am I emotional enough that I can't see it?" "Is it possible or even probable that they could be town?" "Is there anything about them being town that looks like it could be legitimate?" And so on and so forth. After weighing the two, then push forward with your findings. That way, you've analyzed it, and push it. And when you push it, it can be with strength. You're not confirmation biasing them, so it's not true tunneling. But you've gotten good analysis, that you truly believe, and push strongly.

And now we get to how this goes into practice. It's exactly as T-Bone said--the tunnel isn't a true tunnel. It's not impossible for you to change your read. But you're not going to change your read at the drop of the hat. You believe it. Strongly. Because that's what you see. It's something that can change. What you see will change as a game progresses. (For better or for worse.) But it will be something that you believe. You want confidence in your push. But it has to be with good reason. Your confidence can't be arrogance. You want to make sure that you're being reasonable and have a picture fitting the evidence. And not that you've distorted the evidence to fit your own narrative.

Mastering this is, coincidentally enough, a great way to get people to listen to you. If they think your pushes are not insanely-stubborn, they'll be more willing to follow them, and work with you. It's something not even I have completely nailed down, but it's something which has definitely helped a lot. By being the voice of reason, you put yourself in a position where others will listen to that reason, and have it resonate with them.

[Bulbazak]

Mastin, I would be interested in hydraing with you.

Also, do you think you could look over some old game links (That I would provide.) and tell me where I went wrong in my evolution as a town player. This would be via PM, of course. I'd rather not be too public with my tutelage, especially if it could be used as a method of dismantling my overall play. I don't care for being an open book.

[mastin2]

Mastin, please teach me how to stop wall posting.

A helpful hint--it's not so much that you need to stop wallposting.

It's that you need to format your walls in a way that encourages people to actually read them. For instance, as much as people joke about not reading my posts, the simple matter of the fact is, most actually

do

. (Granted. Reading and comprehending are two entirely different things; if they actually comprehended my posts, I'd lose games a whole heck of a lot less. )

I can't really give good advice on how to improve that. It's one of my weakest aspects to my play. But it's still something that I can do better than most. (People are more inclined to read a wall written by me than by most other people.) And it's mainly because my walls have good flow to them. They transition from one point to another fairly smoothly, and are broken up neatly into nice, easily-readable sections that are not hard to digest.

In addition to having flow between paragraphs and nice guiding thoughts (for instance, bold headers in my MD articles that give the core message of the following point), I also try to format the paragraphs to be reasonably-lengthed. They're not super-short one or two liners. They're also not typically beyond six or seven lines at MOST, because that creates a solid block of text too hard to read in one go. 3-5 is the nice butter-zone of paragraph length. And while I realize that varies with screen resolution, it is something I try to do my best with.

Now that said! You can also wall less if you try. As kuribo said, sometimes, it's as simple as posting as soon as you've completed your thought! Typically, I caution a person who wants to avoid spamposting to make sure the thought is actually completed

before

hitting submit, as to make sure there's nothing additional needed for that thought. So look your thought over, see if there's anything about it you want to change, and only after thinking about it for a few seconds (or even minutes) do you hit submit. This crucial bit of thought-editing makes all the difference.

In short, both of these have the same factor--that thought process organization.

The key to making people read what you write (be it wallposting or spamposting) is to have your train of thought be easily traceable and to flow, with it being organized, neat, and overall, refined. You might not notice it, but my posts actually go through a lot of editing. What I post isn't my first draft, but is typically my third or even fourth draft. That crucial bit of editing makes worlds of difference, and it's the best way I've found for me to get what I want.

As an added bonus...typically, this editing process cuts down on words used as well, making your wall...a little bit less of a wall! (I realize you were most likely joking, but walling is a serious problem that many users have, and this is a lesson written to help them curve those problems.)

Good luck!

[mastin2]

Mastin, I would be interested in hydraing with you.

Also, do you think you could look over some old game links (That I would provide.) and tell me where I went wrong in my evolution as a town player. This would be via PM, of course. I'd rather not be too public with my tutelage, especially if it could be used as a method of dismantling my overall play. I don't care for being an open book.

Sure thing, to both.

Note that, again, I'm not going to have much time over the weekend. (I AM V/LA right now. There are dozens of things I should be doing right now aside from academy work. ) But I'll certainly do what I can.

[Kazekirimaru]

Thank you!

[mastin2]

Real thing, let's say player X end's up bringing up one or two really good points but due to his other posts he is put in that dreaded VI category by whole town block and is easy to discredit, how does that player X convince others?

Take it from a guy who used to BE that VI.

In this case? The solution is to discard being a VI. Acknowledge that you might have been one. Say you've been a VI. But show conviction, absolute resolve, in your determination to not be one, that you CAN be a good player. I was a VI at a time, but once I admitted it, once I admitted there were fundamental flaws in my play, I started improving, because I started analyzing them and seeing them, and worked slowly but progressively on eliminating them. Or, even, turning what was a flaw in my posting into a strength.

(As one example of that, walls. As I said in my previous lecture, most people actually read them. So I've turned my verbosity that I used to despise into something productive that people can actually use. Rarely if ever do I actually use a summary, and despite that, rarely if ever am I asked for one or is there confusion on where I stand, because people actually read the wall and know!)

Often-times, a VI who knows they've got issues in their play, but shows interest, shows actual effort, in having them fixed...will evolve from a VI into a great player, given the time to succeed. It's not an overnight change! You can't one day be incompetent, and the next be a scumhunting god. But by actually recognizing you need to improve...chances are, you'll slowly be working towards that improvement and have done so.

Now that said. VIs are actually players I massively respect, because in a way, VIs have something in common with newbies--their opinions are massively outside the norm. If you couldn't tell from my mini-lecture before, that's actually a

good

thing. Because VIs think outside the norm, they're actually harder to manipulate. As scum, the thing I fear most aside from players I know and respect is VIs, because they're wildcards that cannot be accurately predicted with great success.

So my solution isn't for the VI to "think more like a normal person", as some would suggest of a VI. It's to analyze what is good and what is bad about their play, and to bring out the good and minimize the bad. One such way for a VI to become less of a VI is to work with others. Instead of being in their own world and having tinfoil conspiracy theories they randomly blurt out, the former-VI can work with others, explain their crazy theory, recognize it's crazy, but ask for feedback if it has any backing at all.

And, more often than not...it actually does! Because this is where the former-VI's value comes in. They bring up one or two really valid points, despite mostly being wrong. If the former-VI is actually working with another player, said other player is more likely to pick up on the valid points, and use them. And not only will they use those points, but they'll encourage the former-VI to flesh them out a bit. But it requires initiative from the former-VI. To talk to those other players.

Talking is a key part of this process. You need to not do it on your own. You need to do it with their assistance. Ask for them to give feedback. Tell them what your angle is. Explain it, and recognize that your viewpoint is kinda crazy. Know that you're not going to be right about everything. And work with them to figure out what you ARE right about. Another aspect of this is recognizing the scale of things. You might have this grand paranoid theory that is hugely-improbable and incredibly unrealistic, violating occam's razor. But that doesn't mean elements of your theory are wrong, in that you'll often have kernels of truth in them that when you scale the theory back to a more realistic smaller scale, can be brought out and emphasized for all to see.

It's a process much like that which turned me from the VI I used to be into the respectable player I am now. I'm still a bit of an unusual player! My thoughts are largely outside-the-box (and sometimes even controversial). But they're received a lot more positively now than they were originally, because I refined this process a lot. I can't guarantee success, but I can definitely say you'll improve, even if you don't think you have.

[Om]

Well, I'm VI through and through. So, I'm looking forward to working together with you for my improvement.

Also, since my earlier trip to big leagues was not all that great, what do you suggest I should be working on before giving one more try?

[Espeonage]

Well, I'm VI through and through. So, I'm looking forward to working together with you for my improvement.

Also, since my earlier trip to big leagues was not all that great, what do you suggest I should be working on before giving one more try?

Back when Test of Faith Mafia was going on, Vezok was one of the most widely recognised VIs on the site at the time. He drew scum in that game and didn't end up being put under suspicion for a very long time.
http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/PhKC8F8ThMU
That is the scum QT from that game. He nailed PRs out of thin air with the type of certainty I've never seen before. He got so much respect in that postgame.

So don't give up on yourself. Try and you will get noticed.

[kuribo]

The best advice I can give is to keep playing, eventually your natural style will show through and it only gets easier from there


If you look at my earliest games, you'll see I once was the kind of player who built cases and was very conservative with my vote

Trying to play that way led to apathy on my part and would look as natural now as an oral bowel movement

Find your you. Once you know yourself you will know your voice.

[Malakittens]

At first I wasn't gonna, but I think I do want to improve on both creating setups and as a player <3

[N]

can you teach me how to post on weekends

[SalmonellaDreams]

I could actually use some help/general pointers on set up creation too if it's not too much.

[DrippingGoofball]

Mastin, please teach me how to stop wall posting.

i can help you with that, just do what i do




click submit after every paragraph

No articles, just headlines please.

[Alduskkel]

I once tried to come up with a hydra name for me and Mastin, but I all I thought of was Wallduskkel.

[FakeGod]

Imagine 100 angry right-handed gorillas.

They fight each other every day, but they are equally matched.

Now imagine if 1 of them is left-handed.

The left-handed gorilla fights right-handed gorillas all the time, but right-handed gorillas aren't used to fighting left-handed gorillas, so the right-handed gorillas get beaten up by the left-handed gorilla.

=====================================================================================================

Imagine 100 "playstyle A" scummers.

They fight each other every day, but they are equally matched.

Now imagine if 1 of them is a "playstyle B" scummer.

The "playstyle B" scummer fights "playstyle A" scummers all the time, but "playstyle A" scummers aren't used to fighting "playstyle B" scummers, so the "playstyle A" scummers get beaten up by the "playstyle B" scummer.

=====================================================================================================

Imagine 100 scummers each with different playstyles.

Imagine a scummer named Mastin3 who figured out a "playstyle X" that beats "playstyle Y".

Now imagine Mastin3 teaching other scummers to employ "playstyle Y". (We can call this Mastin3 Academy)

=====================================================================================================

I guess what I'm trying to say is that left-handed gorillas are stronger than right-handed gorillas.

[BROseidon]

Mastin, please teach me how to stop wall posting.

i can help you with that, just do what i do




click submit after every paragraph

So much of this.

It makes it so much easier to respond point-by-point when someone does this.

[mastin2]

I once tried to come up with a hydra name for me and Mastin, but I all I thought of was Wallduskkel.

That's an awesome hydra name! We should totally do that.

At first I wasn't gonna, but I think I do want to improve on both creating setups and as a player <3

Alright, will add ya in a bit. (Same for SalmonellaDreams's request.)

Imagine 100 scummers each with different playstyles.
Imagine a scummer named Mastin3 who figured out a "playstyle X" that beats "playstyle Y".
Now imagine Mastin3 teaching other scummers to employ "playstyle Y". (We can call this Mastin3 Academy)

On the contrary! I'm teaching people to learn from my own playstyle. And if there's one thing I've learned in my mafia career, it's this.

I can't read myself worth a damn.

More than just my ever-evolving play making truly-accurate meta virtually impossible to pull off, there's also the fact that every player I've ever seen similarities in my own play has eventually evolved to a point where I was no longer able to read them accurately, perhaps because of the similarities. I'm teaching the playstyle X that beats Y, but I USE X. People who follow my advice eventually get to the point where they're stronger than I am. (E.g., AP.) X beats Y, but stronger-X beats weaker-X, and I'm only middle-tiered X.

[FakeGod]

<3

[kuribo]

Now I kinda wanna know what advice mastin has for me




Ok mastin, we've played together a few times, do you have any advice for me?