Hydras in mini normals

[Mr. Flay]

A lot of players can't do that solo.

This is terrible mindset to be in and you should feel terrible.

Your hydra partner isn't some backup player that picks up the pieces when you flake from a game.

Both hydra players should read the entire game, and discuss fully before making posts that have game content.

Yes, it should take more time and effort to play as a hydra than it does as a solo.

This. Absolutely this (and I hate hydras).

I think the rule should

probably

be maximum fun, combined with mod preference. If three hydras want to play and one player says they don't want to play with hydras, that player should probably wait a game. But at the same time hydras are increasing in popularity of late, and I can see a situation where a non-hydra player can hardly find a game to play in. If that starts to be a problem, we may need to consider an every-other-game-hydra-free rule, or something.

[Alduskkel]

Is there anyone who is actually trying to find a game without hydras and is having trouble? Let's not act like there's a problem if there isn't one.

[Mr. Flay]

Well, I've always ever seen hydrae rejected in favor of single players before (or players self-selecting out), so it may be a new phase of their evolution.

I do know that almost every non-Newbie Game I'm even vaguely interested in has one these days, it seems.

[Magua]

I don't see anywhere that I made the latter argument.

It was how I read your "I just saw a player get pulled..." line from the OP. The implication, as I read it, was that it was unjust that this player couldn't play in that game.

---

And, honestly, I think y'all are approaching this from the wrong side. You don't like hydras, fine, you want

us to get off your lawn

games that don't have hydras, fine. But looking to make a rule about how the game

should be

that goes against how many people are modding it/playing it does not strike me as a recipe for success.

[N]

Normal does not mean "usual".

[RichardGHP]

The argument that a solo player shouldn't feel obliged to give up his spot in a game he's looking forward to because there are hydrae in it is rather thin. Normal games are all much the same; it's not a big deal if you miss out on one particular game because there will be several more just like it in the near future. Theme games are where mods can really make a killing with repeat customers and pre-/in's and the like, and hydrae seem to be widely accepted there. The OP is proposing a solution without a problem, IMHO.

(For the record, I support moderator discretion regarding hydrae in all non-Newbie games, and my own rules allow them as long as I know who they are.)

[kuribo]

There are plenty of people capable of making 200+ posts per game day by their lonesome.

i cordially invite those people to hydra with DGB and me

[ArcAngel9]

I often see players mention their problem with Hydras but personally I don’t have issues with Hydras, because a hydra won’t change a game win condition. Hydra or solo player…. It’s still the same slot, same role, and same game. The only difference is that it is managed by two different players.. So, what? How is it troubling anyone? I don’t understand why it is a big problem to read hydra.. ?
Playing with a Hydra is similarly to playing with a new player because of play style changes due to player combinations. If that is what the issue, players should stop trying to use only META to judge a player slot. Meta may not work for a hydra slot….

And talking about normalcy and stuff and having hydra in a normal game… this is very debatable topic which came up on discussion forums many times..
My understanding is that mini normal or open or micro has strict player limits, that’s why they are mini’s and micros.. So, how relevant is to have hydras in these game queues? The answer is.. it doesn’t matter.. they can have hydra but within its players limit. The reason why they called mini & micro’s because of the player limits they have.. so any of those game can have hydra, the total player count shouldn’t be over its limit. Example, if a mini normal can have 13 players maximum, the game must not have more than 13p including hydra . that’s how I look at that concept but we are doing this differently..

Like others said.. Hydras are most needed in both Large normal and theme games because of the amount of posts and months it takes to finish one game.

[gorckat]

Hydras being more than one player is not the argument that they are not Normal.

Barring a replacement, I argue that you shouldnot have to judge multiple playstyles in a single slot.

Imagine a hydra of kuribo and mastin2 with unsigned posts and secret heads. It is obviously two people posting, but how in the world do I judge that slot? It rages, it walls, it pushes different ways.

[Cabd]

Imagine a hydra of kuribo and mastin2 with unsigned posts and secret heads.

If you were unable to tell those heads just by looking at what they posted, then you probably wouldn't be able to meta them anyways.

[notscience]

Well, I've always ever seen hydrae rejected in favor of single players before (or players self-selecting out), so it may be a new phase of their evolution.

I do know that almost every non-Newbie Game I'm even vaguely interested in has one these days, it seems.

Dewey didn't lol

[gorckat]

Imagine a hydra of kuribo and mastin2 with unsigned posts and secret heads.

If you were unable to tell those heads just by looking at what they posted, then you probably wouldn't be able to meta them anyways.

I'm not necessarily talking meta (because I generally don't), but rather just reading in-game, and the example is a bit poor/extreme.

I was trying to get at the idea of reads are created on a player based on their behavior and how it changes over the course of a game. Two players react and change differently from each other, and both posting as one player-slot is a muddy water that is not "Normal".

FWIW- if the powers that be come down on the side of "Hydras are Normal, dealwithit.gif", then so be it. I don't think mith has ever weighed in in the same way normal/flavor were resolved. If this were to occur, then I would just re-read the recent queue activity and possibly make a suggestion or three to Tierce about game announcements.

[Espeonage]

If you think about the actual dynamics of a hydra. It's really only a boon for a town slot.

It's kind of like being a mason without the confirmed aspect and as a result it has the same effect as the mason chat. A play amplification device.
The exact implications of being in a hydra as compared to being solo in terms of quality of play is debatable, but if we are basing balance (in a small part, I know masons are there for the confirmation aspect.) on what is effectively a good qualities amplification device then there are issues. I don't do well in hydras so I might be a tad biased, but I think it's a fairly empirical study if we want to know if Hydras actually have an effect on the game.

My hypothesis would say there is no noticeable difference in scum play and probably a slight increase in town play. If that difference is significant, and only then, should hydras be considered an issue that needs to be dealt with on a sitewide level as opposed to the current mod and player level.

[gorckat]

That is interesting...check hydra lynch rates to see where power leans balance wise. Nifty.

[FakeGod]

Sounds like a job for someone who has too much time on his hands.

[Psyche]

I'll add it to the list.

[FakeGod]

Good man.

[kuribo]

Imagine a hydra of kuribo and mastin2 with unsigned posts and secret heads.

If you were unable to tell those heads just by looking at what they posted, then you probably wouldn't be able to meta them anyways.

what i bet mastin frequently tells people that they'll be cooking his sock in hell

[Ankamius]

I just treat hydra slots exactly as solo slots, so I don't really see the issue.

[gorckat]

I don't really see the issue.

my lawn is trampled
when four feet walk in two shoes
get the fuck off it!

I am accepting my curmudgeonly position.

[Mr. Flay]

Well, I've always ever seen hydrae rejected in favor of single players before (or players self-selecting out), so it may be a new phase of their evolution.

I do know that almost every non-Newbie Game I'm even vaguely interested in has one these days, it seems.

Dewey didn't lol

Why do you think I played that one?

[saulres]

Because I'm an awesome mod?

[RedCoyote]

While I appreciate Zach's arguments and absolutely see the merit in what he's saying, it would be difficult for me to willingly support taking power from the hands of Moderators in most any instance.

I will say that I have openly advertised a setup that I ran in the Micro Queue with an explicit prohibition on hydras signing up and had no issues filling it. Likewise I have seen this happen on at least one other occasion (and there have no doubt been more, those are only two that I know off the top of my head), and HC also had no problems filling the game up. Now, neither of these games were in the Normal Queue, but it should still be noted that games exist out there for players that don't wish to play with a hydra.

God willing, there will always be enough xenophobes out there like me and Zach that are scared of change and want everything to be like it was, lol. Seriously though, although I wish there was a more "level" playing field for those that want hydras and those that don't, I think we're in a fair place when we have Mods that can make those judgments themselves and advertise them openly.

A lot of players can't do that solo.

This is terrible mindset to be in and you should feel terrible.

Your hydra partner isn't some backup player that picks up the pieces when you flake from a game.

Both hydra players should read the entire game, and discuss fully before making posts that have game content.

Yes, it should take more time and effort to play as a hydra than it does as a solo.

Right, exactly. I don't even really consider myself necessarily to be anti-hydra, but I just do not like the way 95% of players approach it. And, Zach, I've got to say, you and Sotty were guilty of such a crime.

That said, I admittedly have pretty high standards for players in games (standards that, on occasion, I regrettably don't even live up to myself), and, as FakeGod here is saying, it goes doubly so for hydras. I can count on one hand the amount of hydras I've played with that haven't, either inadvertently or not, sidetracked the game due to frivolity.

I'm well aware that I'm in the minority in this, but I don't want a hydra slot to be person A

and

person B. I want it to, as much as it possibly can be, be "one". So, no, I don't want to see your signature, I don't want to know what's going on in your hydra QT and I don't want anything else to get in the way of that illusion.

[Zachrulez]

Right, exactly. I don't even really consider myself necessarily to be anti-hydra, but I just do not like the way 95% of players approach it. And, Zach, I've got to say, you and Sotty were guilty of such a crime.

That said, I admittedly have pretty high standards for players in games (standards that, on occasion, I regrettably don't even live up to myself), and, as FakeGod here is saying, it goes doubly so for hydras. I can count on one hand the amount of hydras I've played with that haven't, either inadvertently or not, sidetracked the game due to frivolity.

I'm well aware that I'm in the minority in this, but I don't want a hydra slot to be person A

and

person B. I want it to, as much as it possibly can be, be "one". So, no, I don't want to see your signature, I don't want to know what's going on in your hydra QT and I don't want anything else to get in the way of that illusion.

That game never happened.

Though technically Sotty didn't play that game. Would have had to have made a single post in the game for that.

In fairness I was never make an argument that hydras should play to Fakegod's standards... though I do have some hydra specific scumtells I do like to rely on. (Some of them are basically everything I did in the game you linked.)

In terms of hydra accounts being one, even me and Sotty kind of had conflicting views on that, as did various players in games we played. There were various players that wanted to know which one of us was posting what at all times, and Sotty was pretty big on signing posts, and I wasn't.

Also that thing Saul posted a while ago about a hydra doing something suspicious and then the other head coming in and dismissing it as the other head being silly. Lynch that, with fire. Hydra scum will only get away with hydra conflicts if you let them.

[T-Bone]

In the games I have played with hydras, I have seen a lot of hesitance to lynch a hydra. Because 'what if they are town, that's multiple protown reads!" or something like that. Also depending on who is in the hydra sometimes they get treated as gospel and no one challenges them. If my experience is representative of site meta as a whole, site meta needs to change.