Merits of Mass Claim...

[vikingfan]

This is something that came to my mind when I was playing the original Back to Gambits...it seems that too often the town gets lazy and tries to mass claim instead of actually playing the game. This happens most often in open setups like Back to Gambits, but it seems that too often mass claiming becomes the first resort instead of the last. Thoughts?

[Dragon Phoenix]

Mass claims are a waste of time with good mods who foresee this. As a result, cop and doc type roles are outed and the scum wins.

[Yosarian2]

A good game should punish mass claims, but the problem is, there are too many games where it's still a strong pro-town play that people tend to just always do it.

A really good game should make there be enough disadvantages to claiming that even the standard "Oh, three people are voting for me? Ok, I'll claim" stuff becomes less of a no-brainer.

[BabyJesus]

Mass claim sucks....

[Kelly Chen]

I wonder what you can do besides have a high vanilla:scum ratio. I'd like to have as much scum as possible, but then the town needs power roles to balance it...

[BabyJesus]

I wonder what you can do besides have a high vanilla:scum ratio. I'd like to have as much scum as possible, but then the town needs power roles to balance it...

Including a manipulation role, that allow scum to take control of a players powers, helps defeat mass claims....Especially if some gg's have "confirmable" roles, that can be manipulated so they are not so confirmable...

[Commodore Amazing]

I've been thinking that since games here ALWAYS seem to have some sort of doc, a cop should claim on day one of pretty much any game.

[Thok]

Having lots of cops with multiple sanities takes care of that problem, CA. Which cop does the doc protect, with limited information about relative sanity?

The general way to prevent mass claims is to include unusual roles. Alternatively scum could try to come up with reasonable thematic claims that cause them to avoid being lynched. (Yes, yes, you can now all ask me if I'm an SK and if CA is a psychologist.)

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, manipulation roles help. GG's with abilities where it's bad for them to claim (say, a person who can't be targeted on even nights) help. Improbable roles help. Some vanillia townies help. Confuisng flavor in general is a good way to frustrate a mass claim. "Sniper" type roles REALLY punish claiming (like the "union assasin" role I had in Civil War mafia where I had to figure out who the confederate president was and kill him in a game of 50 people; any role where a person can/ has to nightkill a specific role punishes the town in the event of a mass claim). There's any number of evil ways to make claiming uncesserally very unprofitiable to the town.

[Kelly Chen]

I've been thinking that since games here ALWAYS seem to have some sort of doc, a cop should claim on day one of pretty much any game.

Mafia roleblocker seems like it could shut that down.

[Tamuz]

Countepoint: Pheobus' Roahl Dahl mafia.

ya it does have a doc, but that certainly didn't save the cop.

[Mgm]

I've been thinking that since games here ALWAYS seem to have some sort of doc, a cop should claim on day one of pretty much any game.

The newbie setup was changed to avoid game breaking strategies. So why not do the same with other games. Don't always put a doc in (at least not a 100% effective one).

If the cop can come out and claim and have the doctor protect him in almost all circumstances the setup is too easy for the town. The town shouldn't rely on cops to win.

[Dragon Phoenix]

My games do not by definition have a cop and/or a doctor. And if they do, they might not be effective. In Blackadder mafia, the doc was a no-good quack.

[Yosarian2]

And even if a game does have a doc and a cop, any cop claiming day 1 is in trouble if there's a mafia and a SK.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and of course, in a theme mafia with a fairly limited number of characters, perhaps the best tool a mod can use to prevent the game from being broken is to give the scum safe claims.

[Seol]

Well, there are two issues here - mass nameclaim, and mass roleclaim.

Mass roleclaim should, in all but endgame scenarios, result in the quick and efficient eradication of all power roles.

Mass nameclaim should never be a problem. If you have a source with a limited number of "gimme" characters, and more than about a third of the town consists of these characters, then your source is probably too narrow. Safe claims help. Not having alignment easily determinable from rolename, based on the source helps (see Harry Potter). The best approach, though, is to take a source with at least three times as many plasusible characters as there are players in the game, and then

don't

just cream off the 20 most obvious ones.

[Yosarian2]

Well, there are two issues here - mass nameclaim, and mass roleclaim.

Mass roleclaim should, in all but endgame scenarios, result in the quick and efficient eradication of all power roles.

I agree. If that's not the case (for example, if the town has 2 docs that can protect each other, and the scum has no way of getting through doc protection), then the mod should probably change that.

Mass nameclaim should never be a problem. If you have a source with a limited number of "gimme" characters, and more than about a third of the town consists of these characters, then your source is probably too narrow. Safe claims help. Not having alignment easily determinable from rolename, based on the source helps (see Harry Potter). The best approach, though, is to take a source with at least three times as many plasusible characters as there are players in the game, and then

don't

just cream off the 20 most obvious ones.

Very true. Sniper roles help as well. Basically, any kind of claim should be dangerous, and should generally be as likely to confuse the town as it is to help it, or else the town inevitably has an unfair advantage in theme games.

Even if there's not a mass roleclaim, you've still got the "Oh, he's claiming Luke Skywalker and we're playing Star Wars mafia, and he has not been counterclaimed; he must be telling the truth" factor, which tends to unbalance games in favor of the town and encourage inane "mindless-bandwagon-to-a-claim" stratagies. Safe claims help with that as well; if half the time, the most obveous characters in a movie or book are actually not in the game and are mafia safe claims instead, then that kind of name claiming stops being an "automatically confirmed" kind of thing.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm thinking that safe claims are the best antidote to having a limited number of source names available to you; leaving out major players is a good idea, but you're requiring the mafia to "guess" which you've left out. This does increase the power of the scum, of course.

I'm more and more liking the split role/name games that mathcam and others have used. The next one Orbiting and I run will be like that, and at least one other on my to-mod list....

As for the actual issue of role-claims: improbable roles are (bastard) mod's best friend.

[Rainbow Brite]

I'm more and more liking the split role/name games that mathcam and others have used. The next one Orbiting and I run will be like that, and at least one other on my to-mod list....

As in, abilities are related to name but not alignment?

Or as in abilities and alignment are unrelated to name?

In the latter case, you might as well make people's rolenames public from the start. It'd even add a bit of flavour, going

vote: Snape

You killed Dumbledore!

and that.

[Mgm]

I'm thinking that safe claims are the best antidote to having a limited number of source names available to you; leaving out major players is a good idea, but you're requiring the mafia to "guess" which you've left out. This does increase the power of the scum, of course.

The scum are the informed minority. They are supposed to have the most power.

[PolarBoy]

In Homestar Runner I told the mafia outright the names of all the roles in the game. I reasoned that none of the pro-town players would lie about their role names so all it really amounted to is that the mafia could avoid accidentally claiming a name that was already used. I think it had the desired effect. Wacky developed a plausible claim to be Pom Pom when he was in fact Strong Bad, the mafia leader.

[MonkeyMan576]

Cult's are a good defence against mass roleclaiming. In a game I ran on another site, every single townie roleclaimed by day 2. They outed the mafia, but the cult knew who to recruit and won the game.

[The Fonz]

Woah, necro!

(Also weird that I JUST took DP's quote from this thread for my sig like, five minutes before you revived the thread).

[forbiddanlight]

heehee, I'm reminded of a game I ran on another site that recently ended. It was themed with hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, and everyone character claimed. I gave the scum falseclaims and tied roles pretty close to the character names with the town. It essentially wrecked town because they took the claims at face value. Further, post game, half of them CRITICIZED me for doing that saying that I should have said flavor might be a red herring or something. The other half was smart enough to realize the need for it and the stupidity of believing anything in massclaim. Regardless, HOPEFULLY they learned from that experience.

[SensFan]

Cult's are a good defence against mass roleclaiming. In a game I ran on another site, every single townie roleclaimed by day 2. They outed the mafia, but the cult knew who to recruit and won the game.

Meh, I disagree pretty strongly with Cults.

On the subject of fakeclaims (including fakenameclaims), isn't half of the skill in being Mafia in a Theme game coming up with a good claim?