...and they all lived happily ever after

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...and they all lived happily ever after

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:39 am

Post by Mr Stoofer »

I think that
Newbie 189
, which has just ended, is the site's first case of "".
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:29 am

Post by mith »

I'm not sure whether to be pleased or disappointed. :)
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:50 am

Post by Kelly Chen »

I think "no attempted NK, no lynch, no attempted NK" should be a town win. The town gets what they wanted, right?

EDIT: That is, the town stopped the killing. What's so bad about the mafia if they're not killing anyone?

I can understand if the town is unable to reach a majority decision, but the mafia doesn't have that problem. I don't like the thought of the mafia being able to repeatedly toss the ball back in the town's court...
Last edited by Kelly Chen on Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:04 am

Post by Dragon Phoenix »

Nope, no-one fulfilled their winning condition.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:42 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

mith wrote:I'm not sure whether to be pleased or disappointed.
Hrm, after giving it a quick run-down, I think I'm disappointed. CA (replacing Ibaesha) was practically cleared and yet one of the final four people living. Nothing wrong with a tie, but I think if I were scum in that position, I would have to take out the confirmed innocent and force the town into lylo the next day. Although I can certainly understand that Lloyd was probably happy with a draw, I think he was in a good position to go for the win.

Anyhow, I do have to agree with DP, this would be a "losing" tie since neither side fulfilled their winning conditions. *shrugs*
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:41 am

Post by Glork »

If it's a no-win draw, shouldn't we rename it "And they were all big fat losers..." then?
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:46 am

Post by mith »

If he was cleared, there's no reason for the town to no lynch either. The whole point of the no lynch with 4 left is to increase the odds of hitting scum from 1/4 to 1/3; and if there's a confirmed innocent, they're already 1/3; may as well lynch and if they get it right an extra player lives.

Practically cleared doesn't equal cleared though, so the no lynch/no kill was the "correct" play until the draw was mentioned.

If you consider a draw half a win, this is a better result for the town than the scum. Scum should expect to win 2/3 by killing if the lynch is random, and from a quick skim I'd say his odds were better than that. So in that sense, he should have killed once Stoofer declared it would be a draw otherwise.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:44 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Yeah...I would have expected the scum to kill on the last night, personally. No-kill once is fine, in the hopes that the town will give in and lynch the next day in order to avoid a draw, but the second no-kill was probably not the correct move.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:46 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

petroleumjelly wrote:
Anyhow, I do have to agree with DP, this would be a "losing" tie since neither side fulfilled their winning conditions. *shrugs*
Eh...a tie is a tie. I'd think of it like a "perpetual check" or "stalemate" draw in chess; neither side can win, so neither side can lose. And if you don't think you'll win in chess, playing for the draw is a good idea; I'd think the same would be true in mafia.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:54 am

Post by mith »

I agree. It's a draw because the moderator stepped in and declared it so. Neither side can call it a win because they didn't meet the winning conditions as stated by the Mod, but since the Mod stepped in and said it's a draw, you can't say they lost either.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:14 am

Post by Lloyd »

Yosarian2 wrote:Yeah...I would have expected the scum to kill on the last night, personally. No-kill once is fine, in the hopes that the town will give in and lynch the next day in order to avoid a draw, but the second no-kill was probably not the correct move.
Yosarian2, I play for fun, even if my moves are seen as incorrect :)

On Night 4, the win was less important than my curiosity of what would happen with a second straight night of no-kill.
petroleumjelly wrote:Although I can certainly understand that Lloyd was probably happy with a draw, I think he was in a good position to go for the win.
mith wrote:Scum should expect to win 2/3 by killing if the lynch is random, and from a quick skim I'd say his odds were better than that. So in that sense, he should have killed once Stoofer declared it would be a draw otherwise.
petroleumjelly and mith,

Once Night 5 arrived, I am happier with a draw of "...and they all lived happily ever after"

To me, a draw has the benefit of generating discussion in this forum section, which outweighs a win in the game.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:28 pm

Post by Mr. Flay »

Yeah, neither side won, but they didn't lose, either.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:54 am

Post by Flying Dutchman »

Mr. Flay wrote:Yeah, neither side won, but they didn't lose, either.
Why not? As far as I'm concerned, if you didn't fulfill your win condition, you've lost. I agree we should call this a mutual loss...
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:08 am

Post by mith »

Neither side fulfilled their win condition *because* the mod stepped in and said no deaths = draw. You could argue that implicit in the winning conditon is a "losing condition": if you don't win, you lose; but that changes once the mod introduces a "drawing condition" (to "if you don't win or draw, you lose").
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:14 am

Post by BabyJesus »

not winning=losers.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:58 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Lloyd wrote: Yosarian2, I play for fun, even if my moves are seen as incorrect :)

No offense intended lloyd; I'm just analyzing the game like I would a game of chess. (shrug) If, like in a chess tourniment , a draw is worth .5 points and a win is worth 1 point, then it's always best to play for the win if you've got better then a 50/50 chance of winning. Of course, that's just me doing general theorycraft about mafia in general, and dosn't really have anything to do with your motives in that one game.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:07 am

Post by Nemesis »

Losing from the town's POV is scum winning and vice versa.

The scum didn't die so they didn't lose.

It's a draw, everyone is happy in some way and unhappy in another way... It's life more than anything else.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:10 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Of course, you have to be careful playing for a draw...if the town's winning condition was "kill all the scum", and the scum's winning condition was "have at least 1 scum left alive at the end of the game", then the scum would win and the town would lose in a "happily ever after" ending.

And the town would have no way of knowing they would lose an ending like that, because they wouldn't know the scum's win conditions...
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:24 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

Flying Dutchman wrote:
Mr. Flay wrote:Yeah, neither side won, but they didn't lose, either.
Why not? As far as I'm concerned, if you didn't fulfill your win condition, you've lost. I agree we should call this a mutual loss...
mith said it first; the mod modified (presumably) the win conditions to include a draw condition. Otherwise yes, they'd have both lost.

I made Reservoir Dogs go No Lynch AND choose to exit the building once they decided the game was over, before I called it. I respect Stoofer's decision to end a stalling game, but it's still not a clean win for either side IMO.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:08 pm

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

So Don Lloyd went soft on us enh? Couldn't pull the trigger? Cooperating with the Feds? In the witness protection program in Santa Clara? Possibly thinking of cutting a deal?

I'll have the hit squad on their way.

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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:16 pm

Post by VisMaior »

he might have to go on the "weakling" list.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:17 pm

Post by SpamWise »

Lloyd could've easily won, all he had to do was take out the quiet guy.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:12 am

Post by Turbovolver »

I don't like the "happily ever after" stuff created by this situation (and similar situations). I think no lynch should be removed... there's no real flavour reasons for it to be removed, but it just strikes me as
off
. Then again, a similar argument could be made for forcing the mafia to kill every night :?

I just don't think it's good sportsmanship to turn mafia games into games of chicken, especially over merely improving your chances.


As I think about it, I think giving the mafia freedom and forcing the town to lynch is the best plan. The mafia are supposed to be the deceptive ones, so I think they should be given the chance to deceive townies by no-killing... town no-lynching is kinda weak imo.


Problem is, without a flavour justification for disallowing no-lynch I'm not comfortable with that idea either :cry:
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:53 am

Post by Seol »

Here's the way I see it -

The only reason the town want to kill all the scum is so the scum stop killing them - the town are fighting for survival. If the scum decide to stop killing the town, then the town have achieved what they need - safety from the invading force.

Therefore... it's arguable that "happily ever after" should be seen as a
town win
.
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Until one man hangs by his neck, by half this curs'd town's will[/i]
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:13 am

Post by JechtMurray »

Meh, he just wants to say that the game ended in a first. We'll probably hear about it for quite a while.
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