Mini 280 - Game Over

[Fiasco]

confirm vote: draygn_mage

. That was a blatant bandwagon-hop; if you were pro-town, you would at least have explained what in Aelyn's long summary convinced you that I was scum.

I reread the game yesterday and I now acknowledge that I did come across as rather defensive; still, you guys are blowing it way out of proportion. I'll reply to some details later, but

strong FoS: Aelyn

for a highly tendentious game writeup in which he didn't even address the point that he's been in a game with me before, and my posting style there was similar. (Unless I've missed that.)

[Fiasco]

Also, I'm not "back" at four votes; I'm at four votes for the first time.

[draygn_mage]

uh Fiasco, badwagon hopping is when you place many votes all over the place. I think I have seriously voted two people in this game, you and Aelyn. Aelyn explained himself well in my eyes and so I go back to you.

[Fiasco]

OK, instead of "bandwagon hopping", make that whatever you call quickly jumping onto someone's bandwagon with essentially nothing more than a "me too".

You still haven't stated your reasons for fourth-voting me; is it the "assuming" thing?

[KingPin]

Aelyn,

Thanks for your summary. I've been trying to go back and match it up with what was actually said and it looks like a fair assessment to me. Though, skewed to your thought process, it looks like a fair summary.

I am currently happy with my vote, for my stated reasons.

[Jaguar]

Hey everyone. I'm back from a hectic weekend into a hectic work week. I'll try to make a meaningful post a bit later.

[Norinel]

(PS: When I said Norniel, I really meant Vikingfan. Maybe that was a freudian slip of sorts, I don't know)

Nor i n el. Please.

Regardless, I believe I'm the one everyone's looking at, mainly, because I'm POSTING. I'm beginning to get worried that Fiasco's the same way, and beginning to question my vote.

I think one of the problems with the site at large is the distinction between posting, Posting, and POSTING; we have lurkers, and we have people get on to post in each of their games around once a day, and we have people who always on the site posting at any opportunity they see. In your case, (At least in this game) the fact that you post good posts a lot probably means there are more things for people seeking the occasional logical twisting or slipup to find. In this game's case, I think said slips are more likely to be maliciously manipulative than not.

I reread the game yesterday and I now acknowledge that I did come across as rather defensive; still, you guys are blowing it way out of proportion.

Blowing things out of proportion is how we get places.

I'm happy with going back to my original vote again to put Fiasco back at four votes.

Just to put Fiasco back at four votes?

[draygn_mage]

No, just keeping a running total so people think about it before they vote him. He was one of two people who's posts struck me as off. Aelyn did a pretty good job of summing things up and in doing so I was able to see the thought process behind the actions. I am back to feeling something is not quite right with Fiasco and plan to keep my vote there unless something unforseen arises.

[LoudmouthLee]

Please forgive my eyes. They go with age, Norinel.

[Don Gaetano]

I still disagree completely with the Fiasco bandwagon, I don't think he's scummy, he's just acting like a newbie.

I still haven't made up my mind about who's most suspicious among the rest of you though, only that I seem to be the only one that was not impressed by Aelyn's long post. Just writing a summary of the game so far does not make you less likely to be scum, unlike what some of you seem to think. I'll try to write a longer post tommorow, with my thoughts so far. Don't do anything drastic before then, ok

[vikingfan]

Hmm, passdog has not posted in this thread since saturday and yet has posted in another thread today (see his profile).

FOS passdog

and can move up to a vote if he doesn't have a good reason. I do, after all, subscribe to the 'attack lurkers' theory.

I do agree with Aelyn and his line of thought persuaded me some on fiasco, but I'm still ambivalent on him. In any case, I wouldn't vote him right now since that would put him at five votes. And yes, when I earlier unvoted him, it was a miscount.

And kingpin, if you can, I'd like more info from you as to why you distrust LML- or is that it?

[Jaguar]

As per my statement, we are now at 4 votes.

unvote fiasco

This has nothing to do with my thinking on fiasco, and everything to do with making sure we avoid a premature lynch. Is it likely to happen with only 2 more votes necessary? Probably not, but I want to avoid that possibility.

Premature lynch? The votes on Fiasco have gone very slowly! This seems to be a "protect my scum partner" tactic. I'm willing to believe that Fiasco and Viking are possibly scum together.

FoS: Viking

That post makes me feel very uneasy. I'm happy with either a Fiasco or a Viking lynch ATM

What would you have me do? Wait until we get to 5 votes and then get attacked because I didn't pull it soon enough in case of a mislynch? I prefer to take the cautious road.

Speaking of Defensive!

FOS: Vikingfan

I think this is what Kingpin is trying to pin on vikingfan for being defensive. I am not sure that I agree that statement of vikingfan being defensive. It was one post of a couple of lines explaining to LML why he unvoted after LML thinks that viking's actions could be those of scum. Yes, they could be scum actions, yet at the same time, enough people have said that they aren't sure that Fiasco is scum and it is a sound unvote for a pro-town player as well. And vikingfan seems to honestly have thought that Fiasco was at four votes at the time. When someone you are not sure of gets to a certain number of votes, it is prudent to unvote in case of a premature lynch. But to play Devil's Advocate, that point is usually one vote away from a lynch, not two votes away from a lynch. I'm not sure why in this game it seems that the danger zone is two votes away from a lynch. Did I miss something on that?

Anyhoo, back to my original point, I find this a weak FOS on vikingfan and am wondering what prompted kingpin to make it.

Norn's posts have gotten me rather uneasy lately. I will quote a little bit later.

Did you actually quote Norinel later? The next post of yours shows a bunch of quotes, but I don't know who you are quoting.

Some people might disagree with me, but I don't see any reason to unvote anyone day one when I have no better targets for my vote. Atleast not when I was the only person voting for him. Besides, I think draygn_mage made a good enough point against Aelyn to deserve a vote early on day one, so I think my vote has a pretty good home where it is.

As is obvious, I disagree with the first part of that post. If you have no reason to vote for someone, you shouldn't be keeping it there. The first day random voting aside, once conversation is up and running and you have no reasons, keeping a vote on someone is scummy. Even if you are the only one voting for that person. Now that you have a reason for your vote, albeit based on draygn_mage's post, I'll

unvote

.

I'm keeping my eye on the kingpin/vikingfan exchange for a bit longer before placing my vote elsewhere.

[vikingfan]

Two things:

A) Passdog has not posted in this thread since Saturday. I'd really like to have EVERYONE participating- it just seems ilke we're letting him skate by with lurking. I'd like either a prod, or failing that, a replacement. (I suppose voting would also work, but I want to know if he's b been around and just hasn't posted. If so, my vote will be going there). In the meantime, prod or replacement please.

B)In response to Jaguar, it was indeed a miscount. And it's not that the danger zone should necessarily be two away from a lynch, but I wanted to be sure to avoid a premature lynch- if someone was confused about the vote count (as I was), a premature lynch could occur with one away. This is why I unvoted with four votes (I thought).

That being said, since no one will probably vote fiasco without a claim, the next step would probably be to decide whether it's worth making him claim or whether we should move on to a new target. Personally, I want to wait until passdog returns or is replaced before I personally decide on that.

[KingPin]

Jaguar,

I was merely pointing out that the tone of the post from Vikingfan was defensive. Not so that it rose to the level of vote-worthy. Is there a mechanism for un-FOS’ing? And if by “pin on vikingfan” you mean that I am pointing out the obvious, then you are correct.

Vikingfan,

My distrust for LML comes from my view that he is trying to bolster his credibility through his tendencies in other games. By no stretch of the imagination are any of us confirmed in any way to the other townies here. It seems to me that to even suggest you are ‘not scum’ because of how you have performed in other games is scummy.

I do agree with some of LML’s analysis of the game and players. That being said, I do not trust the use of prior game outcomes to insinuate a similar circumstance in this game.

[Fiasco]

Before you decide whether or not to push me for a claim, I still owe you a response to some points in Aelyn's dreadnought. I will probably not get around to posting much in the next few days (busy), but I'll try to post that response.

In the mean time I feel it's worth pointing out that, while I've been in non-newbie games before, I replaced into a fairly late stage into those games. Until this game I hadn't been able to form any intuitions on bandwagons.

I think it's a shame LML is intentionally posting less. This is how hunting active posters (whether because they post more total scum tells given the same scum tell rate, or because the activity itself is seen as scummy) helps kill games.

I'd like to point at draygn_mage again: it's become clear now that he never had a reason for his fourth-vote on me, other than the conveniently vague reason that my posts seem "off" and "not quite right".

[draygn_mage]

That's the great thing about this game. i can vote my gut all I want. You're starting to sound like scum who's been caught and is attacking anyone you think the town might go for instead of you.

[Fiasco]

That's the great thing about this game. i can vote my gut all I want.

Quoted For Embarrassment

[Passdog]

Hey guys, I'm sorry I haven't been around. This last week has been pretty hectic. It's orientation week at my university and as President of my college I am busy organising events and ensuring freshers (sophomores?) make it to their classes and enrolment.

Mafia is kind of taking a backseat at the moment and I have been posting in the threads that I've read (because they're at the top of my 'Watched Topic' list). I'll try to do better.

Having done a re-read (and actually reading rather than skimming) I'm willing to admit that Fiasco has been posting content. So I'll concede that his posting has been of some worth. I don't however feel we have better leads so I am ging to leave my vote where it is to force a claim.

We need to garner information from somewhere, and at this stage I believe Fiasco is the right place to start.

The other point I would like to make is that I never take into account previous play styles. It is too convenient for a mafioso to say "I played in a certain way for x number of games therefore I am town now". A good player is consistent to the point that they act the same regardless of alignment. Even if the player is relatively new, bad play one game will generally teach them how to play well later.

Similarly I will never credit the "I'm a Newb" defense as it is all too easy to say. Even if you've only played once (or even never played) before it doesn't mean you haven't got a bit of skill. It's too easy to lie.
[/soapbox]

So

[Norinel]

[Fiasco] was one of two people who's posts struck me as off.

Just to be clear, is Aelyn the other?

This is how hunting active posters (whether because they post more total scum tells given the same scum tell rate, or because the activity itself is seen as scummy) helps kill games.

Would you prefer we ignored some scum tells?

[draygn_mage]

yes, Aelyn was the other, but has somewhat redeemed himself with a good commentary on what is going on in the game including his thoughts and providing content. At this point I am not suspicious of him. This is not to say that it couldn't change at a later time.

[Fiasco]

Passdog: I'm not arguing the "newbie" thing should exempt me from lynches, just that it provides an alternative explanation for the no-nos that I apparently committed in reacting to my bandwagon. Likewise I'm not arguing my earlier playing style proves me innocent; I posted a lot in the game where I was scum (Simple Sicily) too. I'm just arguing you can't use the playing style as evidence for my guilt. At most it may help you justify a meta-game vote to get me to change my behavior.

Norinel: No, of course we shouldn't

ignore

scum tells; it's just that if scum tells were selected from a larger number of posts, we ought to give them less weight in estimating scumminess. Once again, someone with two tells in four posts is scummier than someone with three tells in ten posts, even though all three tells should be pointed out. I'd have thought this was uncontroversial, but apparently not.

Not much time to spend on mafia in the recent past and near future; sorry.

[vikingfan]

Do we need some prods or a deadline? It seems like the game is beginning to stall out with multiple people talking about how they don't have much time or whatever.

[Don Gaetano]

This game has died down, but we've had some discussion. Which is what I wanted, before I came out and said that I'm the cop. I investigated Aelyn during the night, and he was

GUILTY

. I planned to hold on to that information a little longer, but I didn't want Fiasco to claim since I think he's pro-town.

Confirm Vote: Aelyn

[LyingBrian]

• Vote Count:
  • 4) Fiasco
    • Aelyn
      
    • draygn_mage
      
    • LoudmouthLee
      
    • Passdog
  • 1) Aelyn
    • Don Gaetano
  • 1) draygn_mage
    • Fiasco
  • 1) KingPin
    • vikingfan
  • 1) LoudmouthLee
    • KingPin
  • 1) Passdog
    • Norinel
  • 1)
    not voting
    • Jaguar
• Lynch:
  6 votes

[Fiasco]

Now THAT is interesting, and it confirms all my suspicions.

unvote, vote Aelyn

I'm not sure I would have claimed with the doc dead, but I'll let the others debate the wisdom of that. Don Gaetano, to the extent that bone-headedness on my part forced you to reveal yourself, I'm very sorry.

If this claim is true, it makes both LoudmouthLee and draygn_mage (and to a much lesser extent Jaguar, KingPin and vikingfan) look bad.