NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[Red Ryu]

Khan give me your thought process why Nacho is a bad wagon and why people attacking him are scummy. I'm really not seeing why you voted me other than a semi chainsaw. I don't see where you head is at and why.

OverSoul give me your picks right now for scum as of this post and why. You are concerning me as of recent a little more.

Thor sit down, be quiet, and be useful. Your questionnaires has a lot about semantics and it's painful to read. I'm also going to have a long talk with you post game about mechanics because I disagree with tons of stuff your spewing out. I think you're town but god.

Baby Spice is lurking scum, will make case later.

Spoiler: <<< Mod-edited-votecount >>>

Nachomamma8 - 7 (Red Ryu, Bacde, Slandaar, Seanald, CrashTextDummie, Om the Destroyer, Baby Spice)

Desperado - 3 (Nachomamma8, Syryana, Cephrir)

fuzzybutternut - 2 (thezmon221, Oversoul)
ArcAngel9 - 2 (DLG, Desperado)
Oversoul - 2 (Kublai Khan, BeautyAndTheBeast)
Red Ryu - 2 (ArcAngel9, Thor665)
Bacde - 1 (Bulbazak)
Om the Destroyer - 1 (fuzzybutternut)
BeautyAndTheBeast - 1 (Nero Cain)

Not Voting - 3 (Hanzo_5, EddieFenix, Amethyst Kitty)

With

24

players alive, it's

13

to lynch.

Deadline is on Monday, May 27th, @ 11:30 AM PST, which is in (expired on 2013-05-27 11:31:59).

At least half of the Amethyst Kitty hydra is V/LA until Tuesday, May 21st.

[Red Ryu]

Wow.

Decided to read Bacde in iso, and wow.

After about 50 posts I came to a realization.

There's not a shred of content in there.

A touch of fake content, but nothing real.

It picks up a little but it takes a while to get there. iso#87 (#1202)

That's the one that fixes things though. That has he relevent comments.

[Nacho]

isn't addressing me as though I have a real case because he wants to sweep this under the rug (and he knows I'm serious about this read and he knows that I can build a smurfing bandwagon by myself), yet he is addressing everyone else and their points

From then on Bacde seems to get a bit more serious.

Nacho's spent a lot of the game with a decent vote count. Nacho does appear to be doing what Bacde accuses him of, ignoring Bacde and defending against others. Could be because Bacde is tunneling like he's part of the great escape, and pushing that as a defense is better than actually defending.
ie: It's the other people voting him that Nacho has to worry about because he thinks he can dismiss Bc.

Which means a trip through Nacho's iso tommorow.

With the bolded, you're reading surface level.

[Red Ryu]

Spice,

Vote Nacho

Since Bc asked so nicely.

Hey Fuzzy, this is not open 495.

Why did you 180 after gaining suspicion on Bacde, you were saying you thought his content was lacking and had none, but you vote with him anyways?

You said he was getting more serious, but what changed to make you want to go from, "semi fake/no content" to "let's join BC?" None of thee posts in-between are giving me an impression of what changed your mind.

[Cephrir]

You're allowed to note that I'm fencesitting a bit, you just aren't allowed to suspect me for it unless it becomes a pattern. I mean, null reads are a thing people have. That said, as should be obvious from my current vote, I'm climbing down the fence back to the against-the-wagon side.

Yes. You could just point out something that's true, and have an honest and straightforward argument, rather than trying to make yourself look smart.

So...it's not scummy, it's Thor being a ponce?
I thought you said it was scummy?

It is. The townie thing to do would be the straightforward statement, not the let-me-try-to-box-you-into-a-corner-first-so-I-sound-better. We've done this to death though, you don't think manipulation is scummy and I do, we can agree to disagree.

It's all of it. The bandwagon hopping, the sudden reversal on me, and the lack of reasons on everything.

None of which you saw/recall in that other game - and that's why he's scum in this game?

Yep.

[Cephrir]

Although the fuzzy stuff is also independently scummy- the reason I voted him initially had pretty much nothing to do with meta, but your insistence that I look into it has only convinced me further.

[Baby Spice]

Spice,

Vote Nacho

Since Bc asked so nicely.

Hey Fuzzy, this is not open 495.

Why did you 180 after gaining suspicion on Bacde, you were saying you thought his content was lacking and had none, but you vote with him anyways?

You said he was getting more serious, but what changed to make you want to go from, "semi fake/no content" to "let's join BC?" None of thee posts in-between are giving me an impression of what changed your mind.

You quoted me identifying the post.

[Om the Destroyer]

VOTE: Desperado

~Pertayter

[Baby Spice]

VOTE: Desperado

~Pertayter

Desperado,
why don't you come to your senses.
You've been sitting on fences
for so long now

Seriously thought, you've hardly mentioned him nor what you find scummy about him.

[Red Ryu]

Spice,

Vote Nacho

Since Bc asked so nicely.

Hey Fuzzy, this is not open 495.

Why did you 180 after gaining suspicion on Bacde, you were saying you thought his content was lacking and had none, but you vote with him anyways?

You said he was getting more serious, but what changed to make you want to go from, "semi fake/no content" to "let's join BC?" None of thee posts in-between are giving me an impression of what changed your mind.

You quoted me identifying the post.

Answer my question, don't dodge it.

[Red Ryu]

Fence sitting being scummy depends on context.

[Om the Destroyer]

VOTE: Desperado

~Pertayter

Desperado,
why don't you come to your senses.
You've been sitting on fences
for so long now

Seriously thought, you've hardly mentioned him nor what you find scummy about him.

I've hardly mentioned a lot of people, actually.

I feel like Desp writes a lot of words and doesn't end up accomplishing much. I don't really feel like I've actually gained any information from reading his posts. He's pretty much a non-entity in this game and that doesn't sit well.
Also gut and I'm not sure I want to be on the Nacho wagon right now, need to discuss with HD first so this is a good vote in the meantime.

~Pertayter

[Syryana]

Moar votes on Desp!

BabySpice, stop making poetry and vote Desp.

Bacde, stop tunneling townies and vote Desp. That goes for the rest of you peeps on the Nacho wagon too.

Cephrir... eh, you do whatever you're doing, we'll lynch you tomorrow. Though if you want to be pro-town and bus your bud, we'd be all for that.

Thor, Slandaar, Disney hydra! Stop circle jerking and vote Desp!

[Desperado]

Desperado trying to back down from a loosing battle? His most recent posting doesn't look. His reaction to nacho is strange

How am I backing down, exactly?

VOTE: Desperado

This should be our lynch for today.

Case to come.

Looking forward to it.

Right and right. The logic for voting AA9 is terrible- Desperado admits he prefers both Nacho and DLG, and it's not like AA9 is getting lynched right now, so why not vote for the stronger suspect that is actually being pressured? The confirmation bias point really sounds like Desp knows Nacho is town.

The logic for voting AA9 because she is not playing to her town meta in my experience (and she just flipped town in another ongoing game which further supports it) is terrible? Where does my vote do more good...as the 10th or 11th on a healthy wagon, or as the 2nd or 3rd on a player on the fringes whose content has thus far not reflected their town play? How the fuck does the confirmation bias point sound like I know Nacho is town? You and I and Nacho clearly have a different understanding of what confirmation bias is...I've given mine more than once, so what's yours? Because I'm treating it as a scumtell.

While I understand this sentiment, the way it's being expressed sounds to me like flailing scum. A townie might feel like their words are being twisted (and they certainly wouldn't imply their attacker is town right after that as with the confirmation bias thing). But "calling me scummy for everything I do in response"... the things you're doing in response *are* scummy. Add this to previous pages of this argument and, well...

VOTE: Desperado

This is so, so rich given your recent exchange with Thor. Specifically this:

I feel like you're responding to each of my points in a vacuum as though the rest of the argument that went before them didn't exist and mingling the parts of the argument together when I was just trying to respond to specific points. One way or another we seem to start in one place and you end up steering me into arguing about something else.

Sounds eerily familiar. You're really earning your spot on my "please die" list.

I've hardly mentioned a lot of people, actually.

I feel like Desp writes a lot of words and doesn't end up accomplishing much. I don't really feel like I've actually gained any information from reading his posts. He's pretty much a non-entity in this game and that doesn't sit well.
Also gut and I'm not sure I want to be on the Nacho wagon right now, need to discuss with HD first so this is a good vote in the meantime.

~Pertayter

How do you expect me to respond to this? You think my posts are empty rhetoric, I obviously don't. If that's where the discussion is going to begin and end, can you really call this effective scumhunting?

[Desperado]

Moar votes on Desp!

BabySpice, stop making poetry and vote Desp.

Bacde, stop tunneling townies and vote Desp. That goes for the rest of you peeps on the Nacho wagon too.

Cephrir... eh, you do whatever you're doing, we'll lynch you tomorrow. Though if you want to be pro-town and bus your bud, we'd be all for that.

Thor, Slandaar, Disney hydra! Stop circle jerking and vote Desp!

I thought you had a case incoming...

[Desperado]

I actually kind of like the idea of me vs. Nacho today. He's scum, and that fact seems to have divided us pretty well. Cephrir dies first after Nacho flips scum.

Unvote
Vote: Nachomamma

[Slandaar]

Something can hurt town without helping scum - otherwise the term anti-town wouldn't exist.

Oh come on Thor don't play dumb. Of course it can't.

I would guess the term came into existance because someone can do something that benefits scum while being town hence they were anti-town but not scum.

And by saying whatever happened was anti-town you are saying they helped scum ie it benefited scum.

Give me one example of something that is antitown and does NOT help scum.

Just one.

Also, there *is* a big difference between something hurting town and something helping Mafia.
Which is what you are saying he is and why he is doing what he's doing.

No there isn't a difference. The two are directly related as explained above, it is now on you to show me one example of where your 'theory' comes from.

Again, are you saying *this playerlist* would tend to make Nacho believe that?
Because that's what you're claiming as a rebuttal to my point - so...y'know, defend the claim.

I said there are many possible reasons this was just one possibility; I see no reason he couldn't have thought he could get massclaim with me in the game on D1 as from his POV he probably expected me to support it strongly.

Heck no it wouldn't, why would I commit that information to memory?

OK no problem.

I took a look and couldn't see any examples, I guess you are lying???
(lol)

Go and get these examples you found Thor.

So...it's a shift of his scum...wait for it...meta?
Because otherwise you could just go and show me a scum game where he advocated doing this and then we'd have a lynch already.

No it is not a shift in meta It is more of a one off gambit when hes scum. When he is town sure it is, but when he is scum, this doesn't apply because he is just trying to gain the advantage; ergo he returns to his former stances in future games.

You are assuming a shift for some reason, there is no reason to do so because as you have said there is no obvious reason for such a shift.

But it doesn't make sense from scum! well it does... to gain an advantage like I have said 10 times now... but ohhhhhh Nacho would know he gets caught doing that!

Well maybe Nacho thinks he could get away with it because people will think that.

Nice argument you are making Thor I guess it is now disproved by using the higher level argument? or did you not realise you were arguing WIFOM?

I'm still correct on the core question of if he should be lynched over the tell.

Nope. You are not correct.

Impossible to prove, just like its impossible to actually prove anyone is scum, it doesn't mean I should not be thinking hes scum it is not impossible to try to work out which it is. I do not believe as town he would support massclaim on D1 I have explained clearly why.

Therefore I think hes scum.

So your claim is he only sees the benefit of town voting blocks when scum?
Is that where this is going?

No, clearly not, this seems like a 'word twist' we are talking about benefits of massclaiming one of which is that you get a block of town to work with ie a voting block from the PR's and the obvtownreads. If he understands this on D1 of a game (which was part of his argument) where the benefits from such a thing are small then how can he think its bad on D2 where POE is much stronger with 3 dead VT?

I am saying the concept of early massclaim being beneficial were already explained to him so for him to be town there must be a trigger somewhere that changed his whole opinion on these things very drastically; where is the trigger that switched his mentality? where did he become enlightened? there isn't one that I can see and there isn't one that you can see as you have said; therefore hes scum.

Somehow your conclusion is different though...

[Slandaar]

@Slandaar

ok but that doesn't mean that massclaiming is cool for today
i will push it through tomorrow hell yeah
but that doesn't mean it is good for today

I did look more at his stance in that game, y'know, the one where town him was totally against massclaim and that's your case.
Found that quote. Y'know, because he's *totally* against massclaim as town.
Derpy-derpa-derp.

Good I am glad you looked.

My argument was never that he doesn't think massclaim is useful EVER. But thats a nice new take you have on it I see you are running low on arguments. This is him supporting a D1 massclaim; Him vehemently refusing on D2 shows he doesn't like EARLY massclaims which is the whole issue.

In said example; it was D2 with 10 alive; the next day assume the worst and 6 dead 7 alive with 3 scum. Hey wait that is lylo where the vast majority think massclaim is standard.

What actually is your point here? how could you derp this up so badly?

Thor, my friend, you have a scum PM don't you?

[Baby Spice]

. <-------Point

[Slandaar]

He didn't sheep CrashTextDummie. He just copied the format.

So...copying the format is scummy now?
You issue is that he didn't have good analysis - why did you even bring CTD into it?

I feel like I will post my opinion on this argument: Thor is scum. Sums it up quite adequately.

[Baby Spice]

Red Ryu ------->.

[Nachomamma8]

Because your wagon doesn't appear to be going anywhere and I'm more interested in AA9 right now.

Why are you more interested in AA9? Did you not notice she was lurking before?

called me scummy for asking you about them, or changed what you originally said into something else. You aren't engaging me in good faith, you're talking through me and then calling me scummy for whatever I do in response.

Yes, I did completely change what I said originally. What happens when I engage people is I attack them based on things that I don't like in their play, and then my read changes (either gets stronger or gets weaker) based on their responses. In this case, they got stronger. The situation of me calling you out for not scumhunting elsewhere is an observation that isn't necessarily indicative of you immediately being scum since you might just be a tunneley player, but the fact that you immediately adjusted your play after I called you out on that point told me I struck a chord.

Meh, if you are playing perfectly fine and were town, this wagon wouldn't be on you.

Sometimes I look at the wagon on me and I wonder.

Vote Slandaar?
Also, why does Red not look like a good case to you, but you're wide open to the idea of voting him if he does a nebulous 'something'?

If we lynch Desp today, we can lynch Slandaar tomorrow.
Red doesn't look like a good lynch based on what he's doing so far, but I'm still sorting him out.

you talking about OS, because I'm not waffling on him...

Oversoul has been, and still is, a town-read but Nacho's waffle on him is strange.

No?

How about you link me to all these scumgames where he opposed massclaim on Day 1 that you have seen.

i'm also leaning heavily towards massclaiming
i think we could break this game if Tim is telling the truth

Not liking the BV/CES wagon when there are much juicier lynch targets to be had.

Wish mollie would start thinking for herself instead of just blindly doing what Vifam does.

massclaim
y/n?

I would be okay with massclaiming, but since Fate isnt getting lynched we dont need to do that.

i think we might get some useful shit from it regardless

I generally don't like d1 massclaims but since it appears we are already on our way.

hey
hey tim
you got a useful opinion on massclaim?

There's those links of me supporting massclaim on D1!
And if you're looking for me opposing massclaim because I am scum and I don't want there to be a massclaim, check out Amnesia Mafia. I went along with the town's shitty massclaim plan and then talked about how a full massclaim would've been a better idea after the fact.

Seriously thought, you've hardly mentioned him nor what you find scummy about him.

Seriously, you've never mentioned what you've found scummy about me.
Wait...

I actually kind of like the idea of me vs. Nacho today. He's scum, and that fact seems to have divided us pretty well. Cephrir dies first after Nacho flips scum.

Unvote
Vote: Nachomamma

what happened to sorting out AA9.

[Nachomamma8]

Back from V/LA, Thor is derping hard.

We need to stop distracting from the Nacho wagon.

BB convince me Thor is scum over dumb, I still remain that he is dumb town.

I'll click my ISO button to see where I left off.

Bacde you still my Bro?

Are you still pushing me because my Oversoul push was too aggressive?

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

what was your stance on mass-claiming in diffusion of power I forget

thor was arguing from the stance that you wouldn't do this as scum unless you had done this as town

[Nachomamma8]

Tried to dance around it best I could, then "agreed" and brought up a couple of reasons why it was such a bad idea. Slandaar's arguing that my stance on massclaim has had such a meta claim that was too ridiculous to be town, but you reminded me of Adventure Time which I sort of blacked out of my memory for a while.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

so it is a null meta tell for you

what is your stance on thor