TT; Book 1: Bible Verse Mafia - Game over!

[mith]

Ah, good. I was a tad worried you'd muddy things and claim vig, because that's a bit harder (though far from impossible) for me to argue against. Or perhaps even just claim that you're Psalm 107 as you said and unrecruited, I was so convinced our last scum was Ameliaslay that I was trying to figure out other possible reasons why the recruit failed. Now at least *I'm* sure you're the SK. Now to convince the others.

I've already addressed LML's comment, and it's motivation. The two of us were so pissed off at Fritz that we had agreed to attempt to survive the game together and draw. He was trying to keep me alive (and got himself killed for it).

Three reasons why VitaminR is the SK, and I'm not:

1. How would SK mith be able to come up with such a claim as a same-verse mason *before* one of the other masons came out? Not only would I have to come up with the idea for verse-confirming masons on day 1 (otherwise, why choose that verse to plant?), I'd have to *find* verses like that, get quite lucky in them actually turning up in the game, and get even more lucky in not claiming one that someone else actually has. All so I could come out and save Roadbird at the last moment. Yeah, that makes sense...

Once Roadbird had claimed though, it would be a simple matter for VitaminRscum to look at the chapter, notice how there's 4 verses the same, and start hinting at being one of them (not ever actually claiming which). I pinned myself to one from the start, before I could have even known about them. This should be plenty on its own.

2. The first point was "I claimed first", and the second is like it: I claimed cultist first.

Let's say I'm the SK, and I want to come out as the last cultist to try to get the real cultist (or anyone, for that matter; the SK wouldn't care) lynched. I have three choices I can go after. But if I pick the wrong one, the real cultist comes out, and I get lynched. That didn't happen. Either I got pretty lucky... or I really am the cultist.

VitaminR on the other hand, claimed after me. He knew who the real cultist was, and his only option (well, other than the ones I mentioned at the start, which were to him equally futile, and did not have the plus of casting doubt on my cult claim) was to go after me. There's no chance involved here; after my claim, he already knows who tried to recruit him, and doesn't have to guess.

This certainly isn't "proof". But the odds are on my side.

3. And the third reason... I have chat logs with LML. It seems unsporting to actually use them, but if the mod approves and the town insists, I will.

[VitaminR]

I've already addressed LML's comment, and it's motivation. The two of us were so pissed off at Fritz that we had agreed to attempt to survive the game together and draw. He was trying to keep me alive (and got himself killed for it).

Addressed? Why would LML say that? Shielding is nonsense, there was no need to shield. Think about this CA and Amelia, why would LML make that comment? Why make a future claim more difficult if mith was his cult buddy?

Crossing out mith in thread and attempting to recruit him guarantees a win.

1. How would SK mith be able to come up with such a claim as a same-verse mason *before* one of the other masons came out? Not I only would I have to come up with the idea for verse-confirming masons on day 1 (otherwise, why choose that verse to plant?), I'd have to *find* verses like that, get quite lucky in them actually turning up in the game, and get even more lucky in not claiming one that someone else actually has. All so I could come out and save Roadbird at the last moment. Yeah, that makes sense...

Once Roadbird had claimed though, it would be a simple matter for VitaminRscum to look at the chapter, notice how there's 4 verses the same, and start hinting at being one of them (not ever actually claiming which). I pinned myself to one from the start, before I could have even known about them. This should be plenty on its own.

A simple matter? An easy way of fitting in far-fetched speculation. Interesting also how you discounted RoadBird picking up on your role hints in your claim then, yet now find it likely that I did. You're twisting the perspective to fit your interpretation.
This puzzled me too, until I noticed you gave it away yourself in your claim:
[quote="mith]"Psalm 107:31. There's four identical verses in Psalm 107; I think it might be some sort of weakened mason type role. I wouldn't put it past Cadmium to have left one as

a safe scum claim

, though I'm not sure how this would've been done considering all anyone was sent was a verse and whether they needed to send a choice. Even so, I see no reason to lynch Roadbird today. I expect to die tonight for this, but a clever scum probably would've picked up on what I was hinting at anyway.[/quote]
And honestly, how does your role-hinting make sense otherwise? Why would a townie want to breadcrumb his verse? It makes perfect sense for scum setting up a claim.

2. The first point was "I claimed first", and the second is like it: I claimed cultist first.

Let's say I'm the SK, and I want to come out as the last cultist to try to get the real cultist (or anyone, for that matter; the SK wouldn't care) lynched. I have three choices I can go after. But if I pick the wrong one, the real cultist comes out, and I get lynched. That didn't happen. Either I got pretty lucky... or I really am the cultist.

VitaminR on the other hand, claimed after me. He knew who the real cultist was, and his only option (well, other than the ones I mentioned at the start, which were to him equally futile, and did not have the plus of casting doubt on my cult claim) was to go after me. There's no chance involved here; after my claim, he already knows who tried to recruit him, and doesn't have to guess.

That's a weak argument. I couldn't have claimed earlier, I wasn't on.
You had three choices to go after? That's just misrepresentation. CA was confirmed by LML. 50% chance. The point is, mith, you had no other option. LML's comment prevents an effective counter-claim. The only way you would appear believable was if you guessed and claimed first. Gutsy, but ultimately the only viable option.

3. And the third reason... I have chat logs with LML. It seems unsporting to actually use them, but if the mod approves and the town insists, I will.

Now this is really cheap. You have been around long enough to know the rules about outside and inside thread communication. Purposefully naively pretending in order to score credit points.

[mith]

Think about this CA and Amelia, why would LML make that comment? Why make a future claim more difficult if mith was his cult buddy?

The two of us were so pissed off at Fritz that we had agreed to attempt to survive the game together and draw. He was trying to keep me alive (and got himself killed for it).

A simple matter? An easy way of fitting in far-fetched speculation. Interesting also how you discounted RoadBird picking up on your role hints in your claim then, yet now find it likely that I did. You're twisting the perspective to fit your interpretation.

Huh? I wasn't saying it was likely you picked up hints from *my* breadcrumbs. I was saying that I find it quite likely that once *he* claimed, you would have found it easy to look up the chapter and pretend to be a mason.

Let's look at the order of events here:

mith breadcrumbs 107:31.

Roadbird gets up to 8 (one away), claims 107:8.

Curious why LML is asking me, rather than someone who is actually voting for him. I could put together a summary of why I thought he was scum; I've changed my mind since Wednesday though.

I am pretty sure he's innocent now.

I'm going to re-read tomorrow to see what I think about LB.

For me it was mostly his ninth vote on FD that struck me as scummy. Other than that, early bandwagoning and no real attempts to contribute.

I thought Coron and Kerplunk not posting for a long period and returning with a bandwagon vote and no content was also suspicious.

Nothing about Roadbird here. You would think that if you were a Psalm 107 verse, you would automatically go look up his claim and say *something* in your next post. Then you post again:

Hmm... just looked up his verse. I believe his claim.

Unvote: RoadBird
Vote: Kerplunk

For returning with a bandwagon vote without promised argumentation.

This says to me: the claim of Psalm 107 did not trigger anything in VitaminR's thoughts... but once he looked it up he saw an opportunity to pretend to be a mason. It's not until a few posts later that he even pins himself down to that:

True, there is just something about his claim.

It is very similar to my verse.

But I'm not sure Cadmium would not foresee that kind of confirmation.

This does not look like the actions of a mason trying to prevent an innocent from getting lynched. This looks like a hesitant SK.

This puzzled me too, until I noticed you gave it away yourself in your claim:

WIFOM, but why on earth would I bring up this possibility if it were a safe claim? Besides, as I mentioned immediately after the safe claim bit of that quote:

# All players will only be given a verse number instead of a complete role description. All verses can be found in the New International Version of the Bible.
# Additionally, they will be told if they have an ability and whether or not their choice is optional or required. If an ability requires more info concerning the choice, it will be given as well. All other details of the abilities and their effects are for the players to figure out for themselves.

There is nothing in there allowing for an SK to be given a safe claim. And why would there be safe claims in a game like this anyway? There's 30,000 roles to chose from!

And honestly, how does your role-hinting make sense otherwise? Why would a townie want to breadcrumb his verse? It makes perfect sense for scum setting up a claim.

Except we've now ruled out the safe claim possibility.

I disagree anyway. I often breadcrumb as town, and it makes even more sense in this game. Why would I want to back myself into a corner as scum, even if given a safe claim? I could just wait, use my safe claim if forced, or come up with something else if more appropriate to the situation, and the masons would never know the difference.

That's a weak argument. I couldn't have claimed earlier, I wasn't on.

You not being on doesn't make it a weak argument. It's simple probability. Scum, in claiming first in a situation like this, has a chance of screwing up. If the first to claim *doesn't* immediately give himself away, he is more likely to be telling the truth.

Consider the situation after my claim, and let's assume that there was a 50/50 chance of me being SK or cult from some objective observer's point of view. Here are the possibilities:

1. mith Cult, telling the truth, VitaminR SK. Prob: 1/2 (I have nothing to gain by lying as the cult, so if there's a 50% chance of me being cult, it's all in this case.)
2. mith SK, VitaminR Cult. Prob: 1/6
3. mith SK, CA Cult. Prob: 1/6
4. mith SK, Ameliaslay Cult. Prob: 1/6 (we'll assume for simplicity that if I'm lying, each of the others could be cult with equal probability).

Now, once VitaminR comes out and claims (sooner, actually; once Ameliaslay and CA don't counterclaim cult) we have ruled out 3 and 4. However, case 1 is *still* 3 times as likely as case 2; thus, the new probability of case 1 is 3/4, and the new probability of case 2 is 1/4. The objective observer has gained information from the fact that I am not immediately caught in a lie, and this makes it more likely that I am not, in fact, lying.

You had three choices to go after? That's just misrepresentation. CA was confirmed by LML.

Ok, granted, I wouldn't have chosen CA to go after if I were the SK. It's not a misrepresentation, however. The probability that is important is not based on how many choices I had if I'm lying, but on how many players could have been the real cult if I'm lying. It's probably a bit less likely that CA is cult, since it's possible he's unrecruitable, but the probability argument remains similar even if the numbers aren't quite the same.

The point is, mith, you had no other option.

How is this a point? I had no other option as it is, either: I, as the cultist, had to come out to get the SK lynched, or the SK wins.

Now this is really cheap. You have been around long enough to know the rules about outside and inside thread communication. Purposefully naively pretending in order to score credit points.

Huh?

1. I'm not talking about talking outside the thread during day. LML and I talked at night. If you're saying I can't have talked to LML, I'd love to see how you're going to explain where his comments about the cultist working with the town and your little made up plan come from.

2. There is nothing whatsoever in the rules regarding the quoting of night communication. Even if Cadmium decides to change those rules now, I am quite happy to paraphrase the entire conversation from both nights.

[Ameliaslay]

vote: vitaminR

[Commodore Amazing]

Hi, I'm here. I'm going to do a reread, but before I make the final vote I want a couple of things clarified.

VitaminR, if you haven't claimed your original role (can't remember), please do so.

mith, how sure are you that VitaminR is SK and not Ameliaslay?

VitaminR, what night were you recruited? Who else was part of the cult?

[mith]

mith, how sure are you that VitaminR is SK and not Ameliaslay?

100%. If he had claimed he was still just a psalmist and hadn't been recruited, then I might have had some small doubt that perhaps some game mechanic was preventing me from recruiting him. However, he claimed cult, and I know he's not; therefore, he's SK. I can't think of any other reason for him to lie.

[VitaminR]

Hi, I'm here. I'm going to do a reread, but before I make the final vote I want a couple of things clarified.

VitaminR, if you haven't claimed your original role (can't remember), please do so.

VitaminR, what night were you recruited? Who else was part of the cult?

Psalm 107:21.

I was recruited night 5. I was told I could communicate with Fritz and LML.

[VitaminR]

I was hoping to be able to respond to mith's post tonight, but I'm not yet halfway and I have work to do. It'll have to wait for tomorrow, sorry.

[Cadmium]

Vote count:

2 VitaminR (mith, Ameliaslay)

1 mith (VitaminR)

not voting (1): Commodore Amazing

3 to lynch.

[VitaminR]

I have decided to cut the quotes in order to address everything in a clearer structure. Hope the clarity is preserved.

LML's comment

Mith, I know you already put forth shielding as a justificiation, but it doesn't make sense. Why would LML need to protect you? Give me one clear reason. What specific action does it prevent? The cult buddy getting night-killed is an advantage to the cult because it leaves LML, confirmed and trusted by the town, alive.

Claiming/breadcrumbs

I had the line in my head, not the verse number. That's why I didn't see the similarity until I saw the content of the verse.

You're assuming I looked up RoadBird's verse, somehow knew that there were identical psalms (how would I know this?) and decided to gamble on a weak mason interpretation. Then why didn't I bring it up? Why would I hold back information? Also, if I was setting up a fake claim, wouldn't I take care not to look hesitant?

Your interpretation seems to rely on unbelievable ingenuity on my part, yet hinge on my hesitancy in it.

Safe claim

I don't see how you can exclude safe claims based on the rules. This is a fallacy, because you're leaping to a conclusion that is not supported by the warrant properly. You have not provided a reason why it should be stated in the rules. You have also overlooked the perfectly reasonable explanation that the SK was given a mason safe claim to gain an edge.

Math

I really can't follow your numbers. It is based on several assumptions that have no evidence for them and it present a skewed perspective.

Similarly, you could look at the situation before you claimed and list this:
1. CA SK, VitaminR Cult. 1/12
2. CA SK, mith Cult. 1/12
3. CA SK, Amelia Cult. 1/12 etc.

Or after you claimed:
1. mith SK, VitaminR Cult. 1/2
2. VitaminR SK, mith Cult. 1/2

The numbers are in your favour in your example, because you choose a perspective that allows you to draw in other possibilities concerning my claim but not concerning yours. It does not establish anything other than the fact that you claimed first.

I will build my case against mith in the following post, also for clarity reasons.

[VitaminR]

Ameliaslay and CA, ask yourself these questions:

1) Why would LML rule out mith? What purpose does this comment have? It obstructs mith's claim for a reason. Because it was intended to do so.

2) Why did mith claim so early? If he is cult, he knows the SK (because of LML's comment) has a false idea of who the remaining cultist is. If he waits, the SK will slip up in the claim and out themselves. He claimed early because he had to claim. As SK, taking the gamble was his only shot.

3) Why is mith leaping to poorly supported conclusions, drawing in skewed probability scenarios and trying to muddle the factual evidence by offering to invent paraphrases of night conversations?

The only answer that fits these all these questions is the simple truth:
Mith is the SK.

LML and I set it up so well and I feel I'm screwing it up, but it's still possible it won't cost us.

[mith]

LML's comment

You keep talking about advantages to the cult, the cult getting a majority, things like that. You seem to be missing the most vital bit of this whole wacky scenario: LML was pro-town. He was not working toward a cult win, but toward a draw.

In order to be sure of that draw, LML needed a cultist alive he could trust. If I had died, while recruiting someone else (if you had been innocent, for example), he would still be forced to go after the SK, but could no longer be sure that the cultist wouldn't just recruit for the win. He had that assurance with me.

In fact, we weren't just playing for a draw between the cult and the town; we were playing to be the last two survivors.

Claiming/breadcrumbs

How would you know that there were identical psalms? Because they're all in chapter 107? It's not at all farfetched to think you might look at the context of the verse he claimed and see three others just like it in the chapter.

As for your hesistancy: It could simply be a matter of you being worried that all four of those verses were in the game (or even just that you might have to claim and claim one that someone else had).

Safe claim

Ah, misread. I read "All other details..." and assumed the rest said "of their roles" without actually reading. I suppose it doesn't completely rule out the possibility of a safe claim (though I still contend that "will only be given a verse number instead of a complete role description" implies that *only* this verse number and the stuff concerning abilities would be sent).

Still, a safe claim of a mason when there's only two real masons who have little reason to suspect a killer in their midst? Masons who are not even normal masons, and cannot even talk at night to try to feel each other out? If that's the case with you, I'm going to have even more to yell at Cadmium for than I thought.

Math

What assumptions have I made?

I made the assumption that it's 50/50 me being SK or cult after my claim; you can change those numbers without changing the argument. Whatever probability assigned to me being one or the other after my claim (as long as it's not 0/100 or 100/0), the probability of me being cult goes up once we have ruled out CA or Ameliaslay being cult (by your claim, and their lack of claim). This is simply mathematical fact.

I made the assumption that, if I were lying, it would be equally likely any of the three of you were the real cult; again, probably not quite the case, but changing the numbers a bit does not change the argument (unless, as before, the probabilities are 100/0/0 in some order).

This is not some skewed scenario. It's math.

Night Conversations

This is all irrelevant though. I have checked with Cadmium, and if CA still has doubts, I will be posting the logs when I get home.

[mith]

Oh, and one more thing. If LML *wasn't* trying to protect me with that comment, why not just come out with "VitaminR is cult"? Then if VitaminR dies, we have the situation VitaminR is going on about with LML confirmed, and if LML dies, VitaminR is confirmed as the cultist and lying-SK-mith has no chance. Making that comment *only* makes sense in the context of protecting me after I pretty much gave myself away with my quick vote.

[mith]

I'm home. Let me know if you want me to post the log, CA. It's nearly 5000 words, might make it the longest post in the history of Mafia.

[VitaminR]

Post them. I'd like to see what you've come up with.

[Commodore Amazing]

I'm home. Let me know if you want me to post the log, CA. It's nearly 5000 words, might make it the longest post in the history of Mafia.

If it's allowed, I would definitely like to see this. I'm not going to let you bluff this thing.

Sorry to keep you waiting; I promise I'll make a vote tonight.

[mith]

Done.

I've edited out LML's AIM name, as it's not the one he has in his profile (in case he doesn't want it public). I've also snipped in a couple places where we got off topic, and paraphrased a couple Mod PM quotes. Otherwise, it's all here.

Session Start (AIM - glmith:[LML]): Sun Mar 19 15:18:41 2006
[LML]: Just hammered Fritzler
*** Auto-response sent to [LML]: I am currently away from the computer.
GL mith: hammah!
GL mith: who started this hammer thing anyway?
[LML]: No clue
[LML]: Just know we're chat buddies now
GL mith: yup
GL mith: so what'd fritz tell you?
[LML]: a) He's a moron
[LML]: b) We're a cult.
[LML]: c) We're screwed.
GL mith: he is a moron, yes
GL mith: i assume we can't recruit
[LML]: who knows.
GL mith: if we can, we should be fine. we know the psalm verses can be recruited.
GL mith: so i doubt we can
[LML]: I yelled at him.
[LML]: Yelled at him.
[LML]: He really messed that up.
GL mith: indeed. no one was even thinking cult until he pulled that
GL mith: you think CA is scum?
[LML]: PS: Methinks CA is scum
GL mith: heh
GL mith: it's a very similar claim to what he did in married to the mob
[LML]: yeah.
[LML]: Once bitten, twice shy.
GL mith: hm
GL mith: i can't believe i made such a silly slip
[LML]: when?
GL mith: the tss thing
GL mith: i don't know if mackay picked up on it or not
[LML]: oh yeah.
[LML]: i hope not.
GL mith: it wasn't even because i'd been recruited, i just didn't check
GL mith: hm
GL mith: i mean, we're down to 8 now
[LML]: so... i need to keep ca alive
GL mith: and none of the psalm verse are dead
GL mith: *verses
GL mith: there may not be 4 of us, though
[LML]: there's.. not
[LML]: there's 2 of us.
GL mith: 4 pslam verses
GL mith: psalm
GL mith: bah
GL mith: roadbird, vitaminR, and i all are psalm 107:something
GL mith: there's 4 identical verses
[LML]: okay...
[LML]: hopefully, we can recruit.
GL mith: if we can, we're fine
GL mith: if not... tricky
[LML]: Tricky aint the word.
[LML]: That's why I was trying to make sure that Fritz didn't out you.
[LML]: by the way...
GL mith: yeah, that's why i put the 4th on too
[LML]: I have a diabolical plan.
GL mith: normally there i'd wait for ameliaslay and roadbird
[LML]: Fritz told me who his other friends were...
[LML]: no...
GL mith: hm?
[LML]: that wont work.
[LML]: hmmm
GL mith: ah
GL mith: no, it probably wouldn't
GL mith: they'd just lynch you first to see if you were legit
[LML]: My BS post posrked.
[LML]: worked*
[LML]: That was my worst post ever.
GL mith: which one?
[LML]: I was at such a loss there...
[LML]: 707, I believe
GL mith: there was lots of BS there
[LML]: 709
GL mith: ah, yeah
GL mith: you really were a cop, yeah?
[LML]: (nods)
GL mith: how sure are we you were naive?
[LML]: because I was recruited.
[LML]: but...
GL mith: that doesn't matter
[LML]: I could be wrong
[LML]: So...
[LML]: time for a gambit.
GL mith: if a naive cop can be recruited, so can a sane cop
[LML]: can we agree that CA is 95% scum?
GL mith: yes
[LML]: I'm going to out myself.
[LML]: get the scum.
GL mith: could work
GL mith: there's got to be two of them, right?
[LML]: right.
[LML]: but...
[LML]: It'll be in your hands.
GL mith: *if* you're sane, the other one is ameliaslay
[LML]: I had the same idea.
GL mith: which makes mackay the psalmist possibly, which screws me over
[LML]: except Mackay still looks scummy.
GL mith: thing is, if it's just me, we can't win
GL mith: only draw
[LML]: better than nothing, eh? Fritz took me away from the winning team, it's your turn
GL mith: hehe
GL mith: i don't think there can be a 4th psalm verse
GL mith: there's got to be two scum, yeah?
[LML]: Has to be.
GL mith: and there's got to be a vig or SK or whatever the perisher is
[LML]: 2 scum, 1 SK
GL mith: and we know it's not me, you, roadbird, vitaminR, or tss
GL mith: unless tss is scum
[LML]: TSS is next on my list for likely scum
GL mith: it doesn't fit with the numbers thing, though
GL mith: was ender recruited or not? i forgot to ask
[LML]: we're the ONLY two.
GL mith: i mean before you
GL mith: ender died night 4
[LML]: I never knew.
GL mith: gah. if fritzler did and didn't tell you, i'm going to be even more annoyed
[LML]: nono....
[LML]: It was Fuldu, Vismaior, CVismaior, LML, Mith
GL mith: oh, so he was telling the truth about that
GL mith: ok
GL mith: so enderX was some other type of scum
GL mith: here's a wild and crazy thought
GL mith: enderX was the perisher
GL mith: tss took over for him night 4
GL mith: with ender "suiciding"
[LML]: hmmm...
[LML]: or could we be dealing with two scum groups?
GL mith: perhaps
GL mith: a two person scum group, first one that dies turns up innocent and comes back if the other dies?

[snip]

GL mith: that's quite a bit weaker than a four person, but stronger than an SK

[snip]

GL mith: bah, i can't see any way out of you getting lynched
[LML]: Of course not.
[LML]: Unless, on death, I'm not red.
[LML]:
GL mith:
GL mith: i'm surprised i'm not dead yet
GL mith: after coming out as a mason and then the cop clearing me on top of that
[LML]: Ahh.. naive cop
GL mith: we were doing pretty awful as a town, huh
GL mith: if not for the perisher, we'd have already lost
[LML]: oh yeah.
GL mith: and what was fritz thinking?
GL mith: trying to recruit a possible hider? twice?
[LML]: awful play.
GL mith: *after* so many townies/masons were out, too
[LML]: I told him to claim roleblocker.
[LML]: and with one kill...
[LML]: it would have worked.
[LML]: night 3
[LML]:
GL mith: he shouldn't have claimed anything
GL mith: oh, does he have the role he claimed?
GL mith: or something else?
[LML]: he's a cultist.. he claimed a different verse.
GL mith: did he tell you what verse?
GL mith: guess i'll find out in a minute anyway
[LML]: yeah, hold on.. lemme get my notebook.
GL mith: cadmium's on
GL mith: let's hope this isn't one of those cults where the two of us commit suicide after he dies
[LML]: Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character."
[LML]: 1 Corinthians 15:33
GL mith: ah
[LML]: and...
[LML]: he didn't know he was a cult.
[LML]: HOW AWFUL IS THAT?
GL mith: haha
GL mith: wow
GL mith: he came up purple
[LML]: I hate that.... oh no.
[LML]: OH NO
[LML]: OH NO
GL mith: hm?
[LML]: In death, so will I.
[LML]: I need to suicide and take out Amelia and Commodore with me.
GL mith: right, let's talk this through
GL mith: tonight, we get two deaths
GL mith: hopefully not us
GL mith: CA can't kill you
[LML]: I'm going to claim cultist, ability to keep my powers. I'm the only cultist.
[LML]: going to claim Amelia as guilty.
GL mith: no! better
GL mith: wait, no, that won't work
[LML]: why not?
GL mith: fritz claimed he recruited someone else already didn't he
GL mith: no, i mean what i was thinking
GL mith: i was thinking: claim you guys tried to recruit amelia last night
[LML]: I was thinking that too..
GL mith: don't claim you still have powers
[LML]: okay
GL mith: i'm not sure about saying you're the only one
GL mith: maybe wait til asked
GL mith: maybe i'll ask, even
[LML]: I will be asked.
[LML]: sounds good.
[LML]: claiming one and only.
[LML]: by the way...
[LML]: you're going to have to make the correlation that CA must be scum.
GL mith: i can do that
GL mith: i almost mentioned the married thing today
GL mith: it'll be natural coming from me, i helped mod
[LML]:
[LML]: Thanks for that again
GL mith: no prob
[LML]: i'm praying that I can convert now.
[LML]:
GL mith: actually, there is still some small chance we can win
GL mith: we could end up in a prisoner's dilemma situation
[LML]: I'm harmless!
[LML]: I cant kill!
[LML]:
GL mith: exactly
GL mith: this go on about how stupid fritzler was
GL mith: and how you know you can't win
[LML]: and please, don't die.
GL mith: how you'll accept a draw with the town if they let you
[LML]: I played gamn good pro-town anyway.
GL mith: but you'll understand if they lynch you after the scum are gone, you'll still count it as a town win in your heart
[LML]: aww...
[LML]: that's such bull.
[LML]:
GL mith:
[LML]: I wanted to KILL fritzler.
GL mith: thing is, we might get lucky with the night kills
[LML]: i'm an easy lynch.
[LML]: I can see YOU being targeted.
GL mith: well, yes
[LML]: but...
GL mith: but i think the killers will try to find each other
GL mith: and i'm obviously not a killer
[LML]: could the damn mafia target each other about now?
[LML]:
GL mith: actually, i think what we want is for the perisher to die
GL mith: but not either mafia
[LML]: Fritz didnt want to recruit you.. said it was too obvious.
[LML]: I threatened his life.
GL mith: loi
GL mith: he should've recruited me night 2, we'd have won this so easy
[LML]: of course.
[LML]: instead, Vismaior twice?
[LML]: moron.
[LML]:
GL mith: but yeah, if both mafia are alive, the town is *forced* to lynch mafia
GL mith: you probably still die the next night, but maybe the scum get stupid
[LML]: I'm going to die.
[LML]: That's not a question.
[LML]: Now, I'm trying to maximize our ability to do OK here.
GL mith:
GL mith: we need to ask cadmium what happens if it's down to me and 2 innocents
GL mith: right, so both scum are still alive, you come out after them
GL mith: what if one dies?
[LML]: go after the other.
[LML]: Eliminate the scum ASAP
GL mith: even with the perisher still in the mix?
[LML]: not much I can do, eh?
[LML]: still, only 1 NK to deal with.
GL mith: well, if CA dies, and is in fact scum, you come out anyway, no question
GL mith: but if the other scum dies...
[LML]: and implicate Amelia.
[LML]: maybe I should be quiet
[LML]: Live another day?
GL mith: exactly
GL mith: there is that 5% that CA isn't scum
[LML]: So:
[LML]: If CA does and Scum => Come out.
GL mith: if the lynch heads your direction, you just come clean anyway
[LML]: If AS dies and scum => Shut mouth.
[LML]: Otherwise, play by ear.
GL mith: yeah
[LML]: easy enough.
[LML]: what if the perisher dies tonight w/ an innocent.
GL mith: then you have to come out
GL mith: if both scum are alive, the town has to lynch one of them
GL mith: even if the perisher is still alive, i don't want to take a chance on the scum killing the perisher the next night and losing that way
[LML]: sounds good.
GL mith: and i'll try not to do anything stupid
[LML]: I feel confident with the two of us together.
[LML]: WHOA
[LML]: WHOA!
GL mith: hm?
[LML]: LoudmouthLee wrote:
Can I recruit?


[Mod quote removed. Paraphrase: LML is still pro-town.]

GL mith: whoa
GL mith: maybe my wacky theory was right
GL mith: i guess i should check with cadmium too
[LML]: yeah.
[LML]: you should.
[LML]: I'm confused.
GL mith: it's possible i'm cult and you're not. i only mention the possibility because if that's the case, i can't win anyway
GL mith: but we need to know, because if that's the case, then CA is probably telling the truth
GL mith: the way cadmium worded that makes me think otherwise.
[LML]: PS: If you are..
[LML]: Tell me.
[LML]: I'll shoot for a split.
GL mith: i will
GL mith: like i said, best i could do is draw anyway
GL mith: pah, i know you're on cadmium, answer me
GL mith: no answer yet, i see him on too
GL mith: pah
[LML]: you're cult?
GL mith: pah at the no answer
GL mith: i don't know, he hasn't answered
GL mith: it doesn't make much sense either way, does it?
GL mith: if neither of us are cult... what was fritz?
[LML]: not at all....
[LML]: I'm confused.
GL mith: and if i am, why didn't cadmium tell you that last night?
GL mith: right, i'm not cult
GL mith: what the hell was fritz?
GL mith: this makes no sense
[LML]: we're in TROUBLE
[LML]: and I hate Cad so much right now.
GL mith: loi
GL mith: no joke
[LML]: the hate is coming out of my ears.
GL mith: so do we still think CA is scum?
[LML]: Hell if I know.
[LML]: We're masons now.
[LML]: That's cool.
GL mith: 4 masons
GL mith: 8 players
GL mith: should be a win, if not for the double kills
[LML]: So....
[LML]: how are we going to get the town to believe this?
GL mith: i have no idea
[LML]: OMG
[LML]: I know.
[LML]: are you SURE you aren't cult?
GL mith: he said "Nope."
GL mith: i can ask him again if you want
[LML]: [Mod quote removed. Paraphrase: Original message after LML was recruited, saying due to CA's actions (without naming CA) he had same alignment.]
GL mith: was that in your original PM?
[LML]: when I lost my cop ability.
GL mith: i didn't get told that
GL mith: i just got "You are now able to communicate with Fritzler and LoudmouthLee at night."
[LML]: I'm gonna keep you alive anyway....
GL mith: i am oh so confused
[LML]: but...
[LML]: CA's legit.
GL mith: alright
GL mith: so who does that leave?
GL mith: AS, Mackay, tss?
[LML]: Amelia = Scum
[LML]: Mackay = InHim = Scum
[LML]: TSS = Perisher.
[LML]: I will never know if I was naive or sane.
[LML]: You were innocent.
GL mith: you were naive, you checked inHim
[LML]: Vis was innocent.
[LML]: Right...
GL mith: unless mackay is the perisher
GL mith: but that makes even less sense
[LML]: But we have no proof, right now, that InHim was scum.
GL mith: hm
[LML]: don't make me FoS you...
[LML]:
GL mith: hm?
[LML]: I'm pro-town cult and you're anti-town cult. It seems somewhat obvious to me. Again, Mith. I implore you. If you know something that I don't.. say it now before we get deeper into this.
GL mith: i'm so mad at fritz
GL mith: actually, i'm trying to find out if i can re-recruit you
[LML]: Why'd you lie to me?
[LML]:
GL mith: it's what i do
[LML]: PS: I caught you.
[LML]:
GL mith: of course you caught me
GL mith: i didn't know i was scum until just now!
[LML]: do you have a recruit?
GL mith: yes
[LML]: awesome.
[LML]: go go scummy.
GL mith: we can find out who the scum are
[LML]: wow.
[LML]: this is the oddest masonry convo ever.
GL mith:
[LML]: bar none.
GL mith: did you really not know you were still the same alignment?
GL mith: or were you just trying to make sure of me?
[LML]: the latter.
[LML]:
GL mith: there was no way i was getting out of it anyway
[LML]: Wanted to see you try
GL mith: i couldn't very well say my PM said the same as yours
[LML]: You're pretty damn good.
[LML]: So I forgive you
[LML]: Recommendation.
[LML]: DO NOT recruit me tonight.
GL mith: i can't
[LML]: Damnit.
[LML]: So...
[LML]: what do we do.
GL mith: we lynch the scum
[LML]: You tell me.
GL mith: neither of us win otherwise
[LML]: you have recruits!
[LML]: Damnit Mith.
[LML]: \Stop it.
GL mith: which i can't use
[LML]:
[LML]: on me!
[LML]: You have recruits on others.
GL mith: yes
GL mith: are you going to let me use them?
GL mith: you're still part of the cult
GL mith: pro-town or not
GL mith: so you'll find out if i recruit anyone
[LML]: okay.
[LML]: we're both screwed.
[LML]: is Cad on AIM?
GL mith: not that i know of
[LML]: I hate him.
GL mith: loi
GL mith: we're fine
[LML]: ok Mith.
GL mith: we'll figure out the scum
[LML]: I lose!
[LML]: NO!
[LML]: Stop it.
[LML]: My win condition is with the town.
[LML]: not with the cult.
GL mith: so we'll draw
GL mith: you're missing the point
GL mith: if we don't lynch the scum, we both lose anyway
[LML]: Okay.
[LML]: Lets lynch AmeliaSlay.
GL mith: we get it down to three
GL mith: me, you, scum
GL mith: we lynch scum
GL mith: we draw
GL mith: that's the only solution i see
[LML]: oh my god I hate CA
GL mith: loi
[LML]: This would be SO much easier if I were part of the cult.
[LML]: Hmmm...
[LML]: WAIT!
[LML]: WAIT!
[LML]: Y'know what?
[LML]: Recruit tonight.
GL mith: why?
[LML]: We need to get CA to target me again.
GL mith: huh?
[LML]: If CA targets me again...
[LML]: I may turn back to the cult.
GL mith: CA said he was one-shot
[LML]: how the hell would he know that?
GL mith: ~shrug~
[LML]: Didn't we all get the same random PM?
[LML]: with just the verse?
GL mith: probably cadmium told him after he chose you that he had succeeded and no longer had a choice
GL mith: seriously
GL mith: and i normally wouldn't say this, but i'm so annoyed with fritz and cad
GL mith: let's go for a draw
[LML]: deal.
[LML]: PS:
[LML]: You fuck me here...
[LML]: and you're gonna be a marked man.
[LML]:
GL mith: the same goes for you
GL mith: anyway, i'm likely to get killed anyway
[LML]: by scum.
GL mith: ...subtract one of those "anyway"s
GL mith: exactly
GL mith: can i use my little heart wrenching speech i prepared for you earlier?
[LML]: PS: I wait for the day we're scum together.
[LML]: Sure
GL mith: fritz is a moron and even if the town decides to kill me, i'll consider it a win in my heart
[LML]: i'm still pissed you lied to me
[LML]: because, if I didnt double check, we would have lynched CA
[LML]:
[LML]: "double check"
[LML]:
[LML]: y'know what?
GL mith: loi
GL mith: i just wanted the time to think about it
[LML]: I can sacrafice myself.
GL mith: i'd probably have come clean anyway
[LML]: and still play on the side of the cult.
[LML]: that may ruin the game.
GL mith: sac yourself how?
[LML]: Ask for my lynch to clear CA
[LML]: I get lynched.
[LML]: CA is a confirmed townie.
[LML]: shot at night.
GL mith: and the scum probably win
GL mith: we don't have time for that
[LML]: and you have 3 cultists.
[LML]: bah
[LML]: you're right
[LML]: do we tell the truth here?
GL mith: would they believe it if we did?
[LML]: and whatif the scum is smart and stops NKing?
GL mith: why would they stop?
GL mith: it wouldn't buy them anything
[LML]: to make it look like we have eliminated all the scum.
GL mith: we know we haven't
[LML]: so we lynch incorrectly a cult member...
GL mith: we know the wood verse is still out there
[LML]: So, only wood and perisher?
GL mith: i still think there's a 4th with the numbers group
GL mith: but maybe not
GL mith: 3 just seems so weak
[LML]: So...
GL mith: considering how strong the cult should be with a half-competent fritz
[LML]: you're telling me (and I really need to know this)
[LML]: that 1 cult 1 town = draw according to Cad?
GL mith: oh, i never asked that
GL mith: but i can't kill
GL mith: i'll check, of course
[LML]: Next thing. Try to recruit tonight.
[LML]: We *should* be able to ascertain who the last scum is if it is not CA
GL mith: i will
GL mith: for one thing, i have to
[LML]: My guess, still, is Mackay.
GL mith: for another, you might get killed
[LML]: Oh!
[LML]: Thanks for telling me now.
[LML]: I ahte you.
[LML]: HATE YOU
[LML]: what draw were you talking about?
[LML]: YOU LIED AGAIN!
[LML]:
GL mith: i didn't lie!
[LML]: How could we draw if you, at the end, have 3 minions...
[LML]: doh
[LML]: I hate this game.
[LML]: I am REALLY pissed.
[LML]: Can I just be a cultie.
GL mith: i have to *try* to recruit
[LML]: Please?
[LML]: try and recruit Mackay.
GL mith: that's my point
[LML]: Use your powers for good.
[LML]:
GL mith: i point at a scum, and i fail, we know they're scum
[LML]: and with that, I need some booze.
GL mith: anyway, as i said, if i recruit successfully, you'll know about it
GL mith: since you're still in the cult
[LML]: PS: Can we ream out Cad and Fritzler after the game?
GL mith: please
[LML]: thank you.
[LML]: Cad for creating this mess, Fritz for being way too incompetent day 1-4
GL mith: what would you have done if he hadn't been so incompetent?
[LML]: Lost.
[LML]: Gracefully.
GL mith: heh

[snip]

[LML]: I cannot believe.
[LML]: I'm a pro-town cultist
[LML]: in an anti-town cult.
GL mith: an anti-town cult of one
[LML]: and we're...
[LML]: coexisting
[LML]:
[LML]: PS: If I die...
[LML]: WIN ONE FOR THE GIPPER!
GL mith: heh
GL mith: ditto

[snip]

GL mith: in fact, if i die, i want you to get things into a prisoner's dilemma, and end up as the sole survivor
GL mith: and claim victory for the cult

[snip]

[LML]: That's going to be nuts.

[snip]

[LML]: How can we do that.....

[snip]

[LML]: Anyway...
[LML]: I have to run for now.
GL mith: alright
[LML]: If I come up with anything else...
[LML]: I'll IM you.
GL mith: alright
[LML]: peace.
GL mith: and i'll let you know for sure who i'm trying to recruit
GL mith: in case i die
GL mith: but assume mackay for now
[LML]: ooh.
[LML]: I asked a good question.
[LML]: and got a good answer.
GL mith: cadmium said it'd be a draw, btw
GL mith: what's that?
[LML]: When i get killed, since I'm a pro-town CULT MEMBER... do I set listed in purple?
[LML]: [Mod quote removed. Paraphrase: LML would turn up black.]
GL mith: black is just a really dark purple anyway
[LML]: well...
[LML]: pro-town.
[LML]: okay, peace.
GL mith: cya
GL mith: i checked: if i die, the recruit will still go through
GL mith: so if it doesn't, it's because mackay's scum
GL mith: (or whoever)
[LML]: Was TSS revived AFTER LyingBrian was killed?
[LML]: wand was it the day after?
GL mith: lyingbrian was lynched day 2
GL mith: tss revived night/day 4
[LML]: hmmm
[LML]: ok, bbl
Session Close ([LML]): Sun Mar 19 18:08:42 2006



Session Start (AIM - glmith:[LML]): Thu Mar 23 22:34:05 2006
[LML]: sir?
*** Auto-response sent to [LML]: I am currently away from the computer.
[LML]: hmmm.
[LML]: You here?
[LML]: We need a chat, mith
GL mith: stop sending me messages at 5am
[LML]: where are you?
GL mith: UK
GL mith: what do we need to chat about?
[LML]: why'd i think you were in texas?
GL mith: i'm from texas
GL mith: and am there on breaks
[LML]: So...
[LML]: you tried to recruit Mackay...
GL mith: yes?
[LML]: and tomorrow...
[LML]: you're recruiting Amelia.
GL mith: i'm recruiting vitaminR, actually
[LML]: no.
[LML]: why?
GL mith: amelia has to be scum, yes?
[LML]: Mith.
[LML]: I will call for your death if you recruit Vitamin R.
GL mith: either vitaminR or myself will almost certainly be killed
GL mith: i have to preserve the cult for the draw
[LML]: Sir.
GL mith: you will have your draw, as promised, even if i succeed
[LML]: I was not playiong with the CULT
[LML]: I was playing with you!
[LML]: and no.
[LML]: I wont.
GL mith: yes, you will
[LML]: Because there's no more kills.
[LML]: and VitaminR converts CA
[LML]: and I LOSE
[LML]: No die.
[LML]: no dice.
GL mith: huh?
[LML]: So..
[LML]: you convert Vitamin
[LML]: you die.
[LML]: SK gets lynched.
GL mith: then we don't draw anyway
[LML]: However....
GL mith: so don't come at me with this "i was playing for a draw with you" nonsense
[LML]: What the hell are you talking about?
GL mith: it's not a sure thing that CA can even be recruited
GL mith: just listen for a moment
[LML]: I was going to keep my end of the bargain.
[LML]: no.
[LML]: you listen.
[LML]: You recruit Amelia.
[LML]: If she gets lynched.
GL mith: you're really not getting this, are you. if i recruit amelia, and i get killed, i lose. period.
[LML]: but..
GL mith: i am playing for a draw
[LML]: by recruiting VitaminR...
[LML]: HOW?
GL mith: i recruit vitaminR
GL mith: *if* i die, the cult is still alive
GL mith: whether you live up to the draw with him or not is up to you
GL mith: if i *don't* die, vitaminR probably will. and if we both live, i will still honor the draw
[LML]: how so?
[LML]: will you vote VitaminR?
GL mith: tomorrow?
[LML]: no.
GL mith: the next day, yes
GL mith: absolutely
[LML]: I have your word and your honor?
GL mith: yes
[LML]: Don't make me really hate you. I worked way too hard for the quick Mackay lynch.
[LML]:
GL mith: so long as you understand why i have to recruit VR
[LML]: I guess I do.
GL mith: alright
GL mith: i'll probably get killed anyway
[LML]: I'm just...
[LML]: concerned, Mith.
GL mith: it's so obvious i'm the cultist, in spite of your denial
[LML]: Well.. you jumped lithe the cultist

[snip]

[LML]: Ok...
[LML]: last time...
[LML]: I have your word.
[LML]: correct?
GL mith: yes
GL mith: do i have yours?
[LML]: do I have your word that, if your recruit on VitaminK is successful, you will not recruit the next day?
GL mith: yes
GL mith: or rather, i'll recruit you
[LML]: okay.
[LML]: Or...
[LML]: err..
[LML]: Also...
GL mith: or myself
GL mith: i think i'm required to recruit *someone*
[LML]: Do I have your word that you will vote to kill VitaminR?
GL mith: yes
[LML]: IYou have my word that, if alive, I will vote to kill CA
GL mith: ok
[LML]: PS: This is the most fucked up endgame ever.
GL mith: no kidding
[LML]: also... a note of scare...
[LML]: From: Cadmium
To: LoudmouthLee
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:50 pm
Subject: Re: If Mith Dies...
LoudmouthLee wrote:
do I still find out his result of culting?


[Mod quote removed. Paraphrase: Good work, you'll know if he recruits, but when he dies he might not.]

GL mith: hm
[LML]: he said when.
[LML]: not if.
GL mith: i told you i'm likely to die
[LML]: it's ok.
[LML]: if you die and you're unsuccessful to recruit... the cult loses.
GL mith: which is why i'm trying to recruit VR instead of amelia
[LML]: the town lynches amelia bedilia, and the town wins.
GL mith: if i die and just fail because of that, there's not much i can do about it anyway
GL mith: out of my hands there
[LML]: right.
[LML]: send in the recruit.
[LML]: i'm fwding this convo to cad for fun.
GL mith: alright
GL mith: back to bed for me
GL mith: later
[LML]: you send it in?
GL mith: yeah
Session Close ([LML]): Fri Mar 24 06:07:44 2006

[VitaminR]

LML's comment

Why would he have that assurance with you? You say he needed you alive, but there still isn't an action you're preventing. My point was, why would scum night-kill LML's cult buddy?

Claiming/breadcrumbs

It is a possibility that someone would set up like that, but it doesn't fit my later behaviour. Coming out with a hesitant claim and waiting for someone else to give it the weak mason interpretation is a huge risk. Also, how would I know there were similar verses out there?

Math

The assumptions do not matter. It is the fact that you choose to depict a situation where the numbers suit you above situations where the numbers are equal for no good reason.

[VitaminR]

Thought I'd post that since I had already typed it out, even if it was fairly useless.

[Commodore Amazing]

Done.

I've edited out LML's AIM name, as it's not the one he has in his profile (in case he doesn't want it public). I've also snipped in a couple places where we got off topic, and paraphrased a couple Mod PM quotes. Otherwise, it's all here.

Session Start (AIM - glmith:[LML]): Sun Mar 19 15:18:41 2006
[LML]: Just hammered Fritzler
*** Auto-response sent to [LML]: I am currently away from the computer.
GL mith: hammah!
GL mith: who started this hammer thing anyway?
[LML]: No clue
[LML]: Just know we're chat buddies now
GL mith: yup
GL mith: so what'd fritz tell you?
[LML]: a) He's a moron
[LML]: b) We're a cult.
[LML]: c) We're screwed.
GL mith: he is a moron, yes
GL mith: i assume we can't recruit
[LML]: who knows.
GL mith: if we can, we should be fine. we know the psalm verses can be recruited.
GL mith: so i doubt we can
[LML]: I yelled at him.
[LML]: Yelled at him.
[LML]: He really messed that up.
GL mith: indeed. no one was even thinking cult until he pulled that
GL mith: you think CA is scum?
[LML]: PS: Methinks CA is scum
GL mith: heh
GL mith: it's a very similar claim to what he did in married to the mob
[LML]: yeah.
[LML]: Once bitten, twice shy.
GL mith: hm
GL mith: i can't believe i made such a silly slip
[LML]: when?
GL mith: the tss thing
GL mith: i don't know if mackay picked up on it or not
[LML]: oh yeah.
[LML]: i hope not.
GL mith: it wasn't even because i'd been recruited, i just didn't check
GL mith: hm
GL mith: i mean, we're down to 8 now
[LML]: so... i need to keep ca alive
GL mith: and none of the psalm verse are dead
GL mith: *verses
GL mith: there may not be 4 of us, though
[LML]: there's.. not
[LML]: there's 2 of us.
GL mith: 4 pslam verses
GL mith: psalm
GL mith: bah
GL mith: roadbird, vitaminR, and i all are psalm 107:something
GL mith: there's 4 identical verses
[LML]: okay...
[LML]: hopefully, we can recruit.
GL mith: if we can, we're fine
GL mith: if not... tricky
[LML]: Tricky aint the word.
[LML]: That's why I was trying to make sure that Fritz didn't out you.
[LML]: by the way...
GL mith: yeah, that's why i put the 4th on too
[LML]: I have a diabolical plan.
GL mith: normally there i'd wait for ameliaslay and roadbird
[LML]: Fritz told me who his other friends were...
[LML]: no...
GL mith: hm?
[LML]: that wont work.
[LML]: hmmm
GL mith: ah
GL mith: no, it probably wouldn't
GL mith: they'd just lynch you first to see if you were legit
[LML]: My BS post posrked.
[LML]: worked*
[LML]: That was my worst post ever.
GL mith: which one?
[LML]: I was at such a loss there...
[LML]: 707, I believe
GL mith: there was lots of BS there
[LML]: 709
GL mith: ah, yeah
GL mith: you really were a cop, yeah?
[LML]: (nods)
GL mith: how sure are we you were naive?
[LML]: because I was recruited.
[LML]: but...
GL mith: that doesn't matter
[LML]: I could be wrong
[LML]: So...
[LML]: time for a gambit.
GL mith: if a naive cop can be recruited, so can a sane cop
[LML]: can we agree that CA is 95% scum?
GL mith: yes
[LML]: I'm going to out myself.
[LML]: get the scum.
GL mith: could work
GL mith: there's got to be two of them, right?
[LML]: right.
[LML]: but...
[LML]: It'll be in your hands.
GL mith: *if* you're sane, the other one is ameliaslay
[LML]: I had the same idea.
GL mith: which makes mackay the psalmist possibly, which screws me over
[LML]: except Mackay still looks scummy.
GL mith: thing is, if it's just me, we can't win
GL mith: only draw
[LML]: better than nothing, eh? Fritz took me away from the winning team, it's your turn
GL mith: hehe
GL mith: i don't think there can be a 4th psalm verse
GL mith: there's got to be two scum, yeah?
[LML]: Has to be.
GL mith: and there's got to be a vig or SK or whatever the perisher is
[LML]: 2 scum, 1 SK
GL mith: and we know it's not me, you, roadbird, vitaminR, or tss
GL mith: unless tss is scum
[LML]: TSS is next on my list for likely scum
GL mith: it doesn't fit with the numbers thing, though
GL mith: was ender recruited or not? i forgot to ask
[LML]: we're the ONLY two.
GL mith: i mean before you
GL mith: ender died night 4
[LML]: I never knew.
GL mith: gah. if fritzler did and didn't tell you, i'm going to be even more annoyed
[LML]: nono....
[LML]: It was Fuldu, Vismaior, CVismaior, LML, Mith
GL mith: oh, so he was telling the truth about that
GL mith: ok
GL mith: so enderX was some other type of scum
GL mith: here's a wild and crazy thought
GL mith: enderX was the perisher
GL mith: tss took over for him night 4
GL mith: with ender "suiciding"
[LML]: hmmm...
[LML]: or could we be dealing with two scum groups?
GL mith: perhaps
GL mith: a two person scum group, first one that dies turns up innocent and comes back if the other dies?

[snip]

GL mith: that's quite a bit weaker than a four person, but stronger than an SK

[snip]

GL mith: bah, i can't see any way out of you getting lynched
[LML]: Of course not.
[LML]: Unless, on death, I'm not red.
[LML]:
GL mith:
GL mith: i'm surprised i'm not dead yet
GL mith: after coming out as a mason and then the cop clearing me on top of that
[LML]: Ahh.. naive cop
GL mith: we were doing pretty awful as a town, huh
GL mith: if not for the perisher, we'd have already lost
[LML]: oh yeah.
GL mith: and what was fritz thinking?
GL mith: trying to recruit a possible hider? twice?
[LML]: awful play.
GL mith: *after* so many townies/masons were out, too
[LML]: I told him to claim roleblocker.
[LML]: and with one kill...
[LML]: it would have worked.
[LML]: night 3
[LML]:
GL mith: he shouldn't have claimed anything
GL mith: oh, does he have the role he claimed?
GL mith: or something else?
[LML]: he's a cultist.. he claimed a different verse.
GL mith: did he tell you what verse?
GL mith: guess i'll find out in a minute anyway
[LML]: yeah, hold on.. lemme get my notebook.
GL mith: cadmium's on
GL mith: let's hope this isn't one of those cults where the two of us commit suicide after he dies
[LML]: Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character."
[LML]: 1 Corinthians 15:33
GL mith: ah
[LML]: and...
[LML]: he didn't know he was a cult.
[LML]: HOW AWFUL IS THAT?
GL mith: haha
GL mith: wow
GL mith: he came up purple
[LML]: I hate that.... oh no.
[LML]: OH NO
[LML]: OH NO
GL mith: hm?
[LML]: In death, so will I.
[LML]: I need to suicide and take out Amelia and Commodore with me.
GL mith: right, let's talk this through
GL mith: tonight, we get two deaths
GL mith: hopefully not us
GL mith: CA can't kill you
[LML]: I'm going to claim cultist, ability to keep my powers. I'm the only cultist.
[LML]: going to claim Amelia as guilty.
GL mith: no! better
GL mith: wait, no, that won't work
[LML]: why not?
GL mith: fritz claimed he recruited someone else already didn't he
GL mith: no, i mean what i was thinking
GL mith: i was thinking: claim you guys tried to recruit amelia last night
[LML]: I was thinking that too..
GL mith: don't claim you still have powers
[LML]: okay
GL mith: i'm not sure about saying you're the only one
GL mith: maybe wait til asked
GL mith: maybe i'll ask, even
[LML]: I will be asked.
[LML]: sounds good.
[LML]: claiming one and only.
[LML]: by the way...
[LML]: you're going to have to make the correlation that CA must be scum.
GL mith: i can do that
GL mith: i almost mentioned the married thing today
GL mith: it'll be natural coming from me, i helped mod
[LML]:
[LML]: Thanks for that again
GL mith: no prob
[LML]: i'm praying that I can convert now.
[LML]:
GL mith: actually, there is still some small chance we can win
GL mith: we could end up in a prisoner's dilemma situation
[LML]: I'm harmless!
[LML]: I cant kill!
[LML]:
GL mith: exactly
GL mith: this go on about how stupid fritzler was
GL mith: and how you know you can't win
[LML]: and please, don't die.
GL mith: how you'll accept a draw with the town if they let you
[LML]: I played gamn good pro-town anyway.
GL mith: but you'll understand if they lynch you after the scum are gone, you'll still count it as a town win in your heart
[LML]: aww...
[LML]: that's such bull.
[LML]:
GL mith:
[LML]: I wanted to KILL fritzler.
GL mith: thing is, we might get lucky with the night kills
[LML]: i'm an easy lynch.
[LML]: I can see YOU being targeted.
GL mith: well, yes
[LML]: but...
GL mith: but i think the killers will try to find each other
GL mith: and i'm obviously not a killer
[LML]: could the damn mafia target each other about now?
[LML]:
GL mith: actually, i think what we want is for the perisher to die
GL mith: but not either mafia
[LML]: Fritz didnt want to recruit you.. said it was too obvious.
[LML]: I threatened his life.
GL mith: loi
GL mith: he should've recruited me night 2, we'd have won this so easy
[LML]: of course.
[LML]: instead, Vismaior twice?
[LML]: moron.
[LML]:
GL mith: but yeah, if both mafia are alive, the town is *forced* to lynch mafia
GL mith: you probably still die the next night, but maybe the scum get stupid
[LML]: I'm going to die.
[LML]: That's not a question.
[LML]: Now, I'm trying to maximize our ability to do OK here.
GL mith:
GL mith: we need to ask cadmium what happens if it's down to me and 2 innocents
GL mith: right, so both scum are still alive, you come out after them
GL mith: what if one dies?
[LML]: go after the other.
[LML]: Eliminate the scum ASAP
GL mith: even with the perisher still in the mix?
[LML]: not much I can do, eh?
[LML]: still, only 1 NK to deal with.
GL mith: well, if CA dies, and is in fact scum, you come out anyway, no question
GL mith: but if the other scum dies...
[LML]: and implicate Amelia.
[LML]: maybe I should be quiet
[LML]: Live another day?
GL mith: exactly
GL mith: there is that 5% that CA isn't scum
[LML]: So:
[LML]: If CA does and Scum => Come out.
GL mith: if the lynch heads your direction, you just come clean anyway
[LML]: If AS dies and scum => Shut mouth.
[LML]: Otherwise, play by ear.
GL mith: yeah
[LML]: easy enough.
[LML]: what if the perisher dies tonight w/ an innocent.
GL mith: then you have to come out
GL mith: if both scum are alive, the town has to lynch one of them
GL mith: even if the perisher is still alive, i don't want to take a chance on the scum killing the perisher the next night and losing that way
[LML]: sounds good.
GL mith: and i'll try not to do anything stupid
[LML]: I feel confident with the two of us together.
[LML]: WHOA
[LML]: WHOA!
GL mith: hm?
[LML]: LoudmouthLee wrote:
Can I recruit?


[Mod quote removed. Paraphrase: LML is still pro-town.]

GL mith: whoa
GL mith: maybe my wacky theory was right
GL mith: i guess i should check with cadmium too
[LML]: yeah.
[LML]: you should.
[LML]: I'm confused.
GL mith: it's possible i'm cult and you're not. i only mention the possibility because if that's the case, i can't win anyway
GL mith: but we need to know, because if that's the case, then CA is probably telling the truth
GL mith: the way cadmium worded that makes me think otherwise.
[LML]: PS: If you are..
[LML]: Tell me.
[LML]: I'll shoot for a split.
GL mith: i will
GL mith: like i said, best i could do is draw anyway
GL mith: pah, i know you're on cadmium, answer me
GL mith: no answer yet, i see him on too
GL mith: pah
[LML]: you're cult?
GL mith: pah at the no answer
GL mith: i don't know, he hasn't answered
GL mith: it doesn't make much sense either way, does it?
GL mith: if neither of us are cult... what was fritz?
[LML]: not at all....
[LML]: I'm confused.
GL mith: and if i am, why didn't cadmium tell you that last night?
GL mith: right, i'm not cult
GL mith: what the hell was fritz?
GL mith: this makes no sense
[LML]: we're in TROUBLE
[LML]: and I hate Cad so much right now.
GL mith: loi
GL mith: no joke
[LML]: the hate is coming out of my ears.
GL mith: so do we still think CA is scum?
[LML]: Hell if I know.
[LML]: We're masons now.
[LML]: That's cool.
GL mith: 4 masons
GL mith: 8 players
GL mith: should be a win, if not for the double kills
[LML]: So....
[LML]: how are we going to get the town to believe this?
GL mith: i have no idea
[LML]: OMG
[LML]: I know.
[LML]: are you SURE you aren't cult?
GL mith: he said "Nope."
GL mith: i can ask him again if you want
[LML]: [Mod quote removed. Paraphrase: Original message after LML was recruited, saying due to CA's actions (without naming CA) he had same alignment.]
GL mith: was that in your original PM?
[LML]: when I lost my cop ability.
GL mith: i didn't get told that
GL mith: i just got "You are now able to communicate with Fritzler and LoudmouthLee at night."
[LML]: I'm gonna keep you alive anyway....
GL mith: i am oh so confused
[LML]: but...
[LML]: CA's legit.
GL mith: alright
GL mith: so who does that leave?
GL mith: AS, Mackay, tss?
[LML]: Amelia = Scum
[LML]: Mackay = InHim = Scum
[LML]: TSS = Perisher.
[LML]: I will never know if I was naive or sane.
[LML]: You were innocent.
GL mith: you were naive, you checked inHim
[LML]: Vis was innocent.
[LML]: Right...
GL mith: unless mackay is the perisher
GL mith: but that makes even less sense
[LML]: But we have no proof, right now, that InHim was scum.
GL mith: hm
[LML]: don't make me FoS you...
[LML]:
GL mith: hm?
[LML]: I'm pro-town cult and you're anti-town cult. It seems somewhat obvious to me. Again, Mith. I implore you. If you know something that I don't.. say it now before we get deeper into this.
GL mith: i'm so mad at fritz
GL mith: actually, i'm trying to find out if i can re-recruit you
[LML]: Why'd you lie to me?
[LML]:
GL mith: it's what i do
[LML]: PS: I caught you.
[LML]:
GL mith: of course you caught me
GL mith: i didn't know i was scum until just now!
[LML]: do you have a recruit?
GL mith: yes
[LML]: awesome.
[LML]: go go scummy.
GL mith: we can find out who the scum are
[LML]: wow.
[LML]: this is the oddest masonry convo ever.
GL mith:
[LML]: bar none.
GL mith: did you really not know you were still the same alignment?
GL mith: or were you just trying to make sure of me?
[LML]: the latter.
[LML]:
GL mith: there was no way i was getting out of it anyway
[LML]: Wanted to see you try
GL mith: i couldn't very well say my PM said the same as yours
[LML]: You're pretty damn good.
[LML]: So I forgive you
[LML]: Recommendation.
[LML]: DO NOT recruit me tonight.
GL mith: i can't
[LML]: Damnit.
[LML]: So...
[LML]: what do we do.
GL mith: we lynch the scum
[LML]: You tell me.
GL mith: neither of us win otherwise
[LML]: you have recruits!
[LML]: Damnit Mith.
[LML]: \Stop it.
GL mith: which i can't use
[LML]:
[LML]: on me!
[LML]: You have recruits on others.
GL mith: yes
GL mith: are you going to let me use them?
GL mith: you're still part of the cult
GL mith: pro-town or not
GL mith: so you'll find out if i recruit anyone
[LML]: okay.
[LML]: we're both screwed.
[LML]: is Cad on AIM?
GL mith: not that i know of
[LML]: I hate him.
GL mith: loi
GL mith: we're fine
[LML]: ok Mith.
GL mith: we'll figure out the scum
[LML]: I lose!
[LML]: NO!
[LML]: Stop it.
[LML]: My win condition is with the town.
[LML]: not with the cult.
GL mith: so we'll draw
GL mith: you're missing the point
GL mith: if we don't lynch the scum, we both lose anyway
[LML]: Okay.
[LML]: Lets lynch AmeliaSlay.
GL mith: we get it down to three
GL mith: me, you, scum
GL mith: we lynch scum
GL mith: we draw
GL mith: that's the only solution i see
[LML]: oh my god I hate CA
GL mith: loi
[LML]: This would be SO much easier if I were part of the cult.
[LML]: Hmmm...
[LML]: WAIT!
[LML]: WAIT!
[LML]: Y'know what?
[LML]: Recruit tonight.
GL mith: why?
[LML]: We need to get CA to target me again.
GL mith: huh?
[LML]: If CA targets me again...
[LML]: I may turn back to the cult.
GL mith: CA said he was one-shot
[LML]: how the hell would he know that?
GL mith: ~shrug~
[LML]: Didn't we all get the same random PM?
[LML]: with just the verse?
GL mith: probably cadmium told him after he chose you that he had succeeded and no longer had a choice
GL mith: seriously
GL mith: and i normally wouldn't say this, but i'm so annoyed with fritz and cad
GL mith: let's go for a draw
[LML]: deal.
[LML]: PS:
[LML]: You fuck me here...
[LML]: and you're gonna be a marked man.
[LML]:
GL mith: the same goes for you
GL mith: anyway, i'm likely to get killed anyway
[LML]: by scum.
GL mith: ...subtract one of those "anyway"s
GL mith: exactly
GL mith: can i use my little heart wrenching speech i prepared for you earlier?
[LML]: PS: I wait for the day we're scum together.
[LML]: Sure
GL mith: fritz is a moron and even if the town decides to kill me, i'll consider it a win in my heart
[LML]: i'm still pissed you lied to me
[LML]: because, if I didnt double check, we would have lynched CA
[LML]:
[LML]: "double check"
[LML]:
[LML]: y'know what?
GL mith: loi
GL mith: i just wanted the time to think about it
[LML]: I can sacrafice myself.
GL mith: i'd probably have come clean anyway
[LML]: and still play on the side of the cult.
[LML]: that may ruin the game.
GL mith: sac yourself how?
[LML]: Ask for my lynch to clear CA
[LML]: I get lynched.
[LML]: CA is a confirmed townie.
[LML]: shot at night.
GL mith: and the scum probably win
GL mith: we don't have time for that
[LML]: and you have 3 cultists.
[LML]: bah
[LML]: you're right
[LML]: do we tell the truth here?
GL mith: would they believe it if we did?
[LML]: and whatif the scum is smart and stops NKing?
GL mith: why would they stop?
GL mith: it wouldn't buy them anything
[LML]: to make it look like we have eliminated all the scum.
GL mith: we know we haven't
[LML]: so we lynch incorrectly a cult member...
GL mith: we know the wood verse is still out there
[LML]: So, only wood and perisher?
GL mith: i still think there's a 4th with the numbers group
GL mith: but maybe not
GL mith: 3 just seems so weak
[LML]: So...
GL mith: considering how strong the cult should be with a half-competent fritz
[LML]: you're telling me (and I really need to know this)
[LML]: that 1 cult 1 town = draw according to Cad?
GL mith: oh, i never asked that
GL mith: but i can't kill
GL mith: i'll check, of course
[LML]: Next thing. Try to recruit tonight.
[LML]: We *should* be able to ascertain who the last scum is if it is not CA
GL mith: i will
GL mith: for one thing, i have to
[LML]: My guess, still, is Mackay.
GL mith: for another, you might get killed
[LML]: Oh!
[LML]: Thanks for telling me now.
[LML]: I ahte you.
[LML]: HATE YOU
[LML]: what draw were you talking about?
[LML]: YOU LIED AGAIN!
[LML]:
GL mith: i didn't lie!
[LML]: How could we draw if you, at the end, have 3 minions...
[LML]: doh
[LML]: I hate this game.
[LML]: I am REALLY pissed.
[LML]: Can I just be a cultie.
GL mith: i have to *try* to recruit
[LML]: Please?
[LML]: try and recruit Mackay.
GL mith: that's my point
[LML]: Use your powers for good.
[LML]:
GL mith: i point at a scum, and i fail, we know they're scum
[LML]: and with that, I need some booze.
GL mith: anyway, as i said, if i recruit successfully, you'll know about it
GL mith: since you're still in the cult
[LML]: PS: Can we ream out Cad and Fritzler after the game?
GL mith: please
[LML]: thank you.
[LML]: Cad for creating this mess, Fritz for being way too incompetent day 1-4
GL mith: what would you have done if he hadn't been so incompetent?
[LML]: Lost.
[LML]: Gracefully.
GL mith: heh

[snip]

[LML]: I cannot believe.
[LML]: I'm a pro-town cultist
[LML]: in an anti-town cult.
GL mith: an anti-town cult of one
[LML]: and we're...
[LML]: coexisting
[LML]:
[LML]: PS: If I die...
[LML]: WIN ONE FOR THE GIPPER!
GL mith: heh
GL mith: ditto

[snip]

GL mith: in fact, if i die, i want you to get things into a prisoner's dilemma, and end up as the sole survivor
GL mith: and claim victory for the cult

[snip]

[LML]: That's going to be nuts.

[snip]

[LML]: How can we do that.....

[snip]

[LML]: Anyway...
[LML]: I have to run for now.
GL mith: alright
[LML]: If I come up with anything else...
[LML]: I'll IM you.
GL mith: alright
[LML]: peace.
GL mith: and i'll let you know for sure who i'm trying to recruit
GL mith: in case i die
GL mith: but assume mackay for now
[LML]: ooh.
[LML]: I asked a good question.
[LML]: and got a good answer.
GL mith: cadmium said it'd be a draw, btw
GL mith: what's that?
[LML]: When i get killed, since I'm a pro-town CULT MEMBER... do I set listed in purple?
[LML]: [Mod quote removed. Paraphrase: LML would turn up black.]
GL mith: black is just a really dark purple anyway
[LML]: well...
[LML]: pro-town.
[LML]: okay, peace.
GL mith: cya
GL mith: i checked: if i die, the recruit will still go through
GL mith: so if it doesn't, it's because mackay's scum
GL mith: (or whoever)
[LML]: Was TSS revived AFTER LyingBrian was killed?
[LML]: wand was it the day after?
GL mith: lyingbrian was lynched day 2
GL mith: tss revived night/day 4
[LML]: hmmm
[LML]: ok, bbl
Session Close ([LML]): Sun Mar 19 18:08:42 2006



Session Start (AIM - glmith:[LML]): Thu Mar 23 22:34:05 2006
[LML]: sir?
*** Auto-response sent to [LML]: I am currently away from the computer.
[LML]: hmmm.
[LML]: You here?
[LML]: We need a chat, mith
GL mith: stop sending me messages at 5am
[LML]: where are you?
GL mith: UK
GL mith: what do we need to chat about?
[LML]: why'd i think you were in texas?
GL mith: i'm from texas
GL mith: and am there on breaks
[LML]: So...
[LML]: you tried to recruit Mackay...
GL mith: yes?
[LML]: and tomorrow...
[LML]: you're recruiting Amelia.
GL mith: i'm recruiting vitaminR, actually
[LML]: no.
[LML]: why?
GL mith: amelia has to be scum, yes?
[LML]: Mith.
[LML]: I will call for your death if you recruit Vitamin R.
GL mith: either vitaminR or myself will almost certainly be killed
GL mith: i have to preserve the cult for the draw
[LML]: Sir.
GL mith: you will have your draw, as promised, even if i succeed
[LML]: I was not playiong with the CULT
[LML]: I was playing with you!
[LML]: and no.
[LML]: I wont.
GL mith: yes, you will
[LML]: Because there's no more kills.
[LML]: and VitaminR converts CA
[LML]: and I LOSE
[LML]: No die.
[LML]: no dice.
GL mith: huh?
[LML]: So..
[LML]: you convert Vitamin
[LML]: you die.
[LML]: SK gets lynched.
GL mith: then we don't draw anyway
[LML]: However....
GL mith: so don't come at me with this "i was playing for a draw with you" nonsense
[LML]: What the hell are you talking about?
GL mith: it's not a sure thing that CA can even be recruited
GL mith: just listen for a moment
[LML]: I was going to keep my end of the bargain.
[LML]: no.
[LML]: you listen.
[LML]: You recruit Amelia.
[LML]: If she gets lynched.
GL mith: you're really not getting this, are you. if i recruit amelia, and i get killed, i lose. period.
[LML]: but..
GL mith: i am playing for a draw
[LML]: by recruiting VitaminR...
[LML]: HOW?
GL mith: i recruit vitaminR
GL mith: *if* i die, the cult is still alive
GL mith: whether you live up to the draw with him or not is up to you
GL mith: if i *don't* die, vitaminR probably will. and if we both live, i will still honor the draw
[LML]: how so?
[LML]: will you vote VitaminR?
GL mith: tomorrow?
[LML]: no.
GL mith: the next day, yes
GL mith: absolutely
[LML]: I have your word and your honor?
GL mith: yes
[LML]: Don't make me really hate you. I worked way too hard for the quick Mackay lynch.
[LML]:
GL mith: so long as you understand why i have to recruit VR
[LML]: I guess I do.
GL mith: alright
GL mith: i'll probably get killed anyway
[LML]: I'm just...
[LML]: concerned, Mith.
GL mith: it's so obvious i'm the cultist, in spite of your denial
[LML]: Well.. you jumped lithe the cultist

[snip]

[LML]: Ok...
[LML]: last time...
[LML]: I have your word.
[LML]: correct?
GL mith: yes
GL mith: do i have yours?
[LML]: do I have your word that, if your recruit on VitaminK is successful, you will not recruit the next day?
GL mith: yes
GL mith: or rather, i'll recruit you
[LML]: okay.
[LML]: Or...
[LML]: err..
[LML]: Also...
GL mith: or myself
GL mith: i think i'm required to recruit *someone*
[LML]: Do I have your word that you will vote to kill VitaminR?
GL mith: yes
[LML]: IYou have my word that, if alive, I will vote to kill CA
GL mith: ok
[LML]: PS: This is the most fucked up endgame ever.
GL mith: no kidding
[LML]: also... a note of scare...
[LML]: From: Cadmium
To: LoudmouthLee
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:50 pm
Subject: Re: If Mith Dies...
LoudmouthLee wrote:
do I still find out his result of culting?


[Mod quote removed. Paraphrase: Good work, you'll know if he recruits, but when he dies he might not.]

GL mith: hm
[LML]: he said when.
[LML]: not if.
GL mith: i told you i'm likely to die
[LML]: it's ok.
[LML]: if you die and you're unsuccessful to recruit... the cult loses.
GL mith: which is why i'm trying to recruit VR instead of amelia
[LML]: the town lynches amelia bedilia, and the town wins.
GL mith: if i die and just fail because of that, there's not much i can do about it anyway
GL mith: out of my hands there
[LML]: right.
[LML]: send in the recruit.
[LML]: i'm fwding this convo to cad for fun.
GL mith: alright
GL mith: back to bed for me
GL mith: later
[LML]: you send it in?
GL mith: yeah
Session Close ([LML]): Fri Mar 24 06:07:44 2006

[VitaminR]

CA, you realise you still lose, btw?

[VitaminR]

You're most likely unrecruitable for the cult. Amelia and mith win.

[Commodore Amazing]

VitaminR, there is no way you and I can share this victory or share a draw. Similarly, you cannot strike a deal with the cult. You are doomed.

However, you can help out the town. Some day they might do the same for you.

If we "no lynch" and go to night, will you kill mith? You would be lynched tomorrow.

At best, Ameliaslay and I win as town (this assumes mith cannot recruit). At worst, Ameliaslay and I draw (this assumes mith can recruit).

From a flavor perspective, it's best for both of us to do this. I've clearly got it in for the cult, and would like to see them die. You happen to like killing people. I'm giving you one more chance to do it. With this play, we both get a little more out of our flavor.

This is the best anyone in town can offer you. There were a lot more townies this game than cult members; more people who would like to return the favor for you in a future game. Your loss is certain. This is the best you can get.

You could backstab me and night-kill me. That would give the town a loss over a win. It would also make people angry with you in the next life. If that's what you want to do, I can't really stop you. I see a way to win, and I take it. Do we have a deal?

[VitaminR]

Oh, deal. Definitely. I don't see why not. I have no real incentive to stab you in the back. It does not give me a win and it is the cult's plans I want to thwart.

[Commodore Amazing]

Oh, deal. Definitely. I don't see why not. I have no real incentive to stab you in the back. It does not give me a win and it is the cult's plans I want to thwart.

Let's do it.

vote: no lynch

See ya later, mith!

@Ameliaslay - we might need you to vote with us on this one