Newb Question... Input Please!

[petroleumjelly]

Granted I have not played a game of Mafia yet (though I am signed up!), but I was wondering about strategies for a Newb game, where it begins with day.

Seeing as there is absolutely no information for anybody to work of off on Day 1, it would seem against one's best interest to know whether or not you are Scum. If you know you are scum, it is easy to slip up while defending yourself or your partner in crime, or become too eager to lynch an innocent. If you are a Doc/Cop, you may inadvertantly open yourself up as a target.

Essentially my question is this:

Isn't it advantageous simply to NOT look at what role you are until Night One begins in a Newb game (and thus assume you are a vanilla townie)?

There only seems like one or two drawbacks to me, but many advantages.

Ads
1 - If you are scum, you will be playing like a townie and should have absolutely no scummy behavior to be criticized since you cannot make a Freudian slip.
2 - If you are a Doc, you should not be drawing attention to yourself anyhow; playing like a townie makes you less of a Night 1 kill.
3 - If you are a Cop, same reasons as #2.
4 - If you are a vanilla townie, then you're already playing just as you should be.

Dis-Ads
1 - If you are scum, you may be responsible for your own partner's lynching (although this could help you in the long run, although it would be a very dangerous gambit).
2 - If you are scum, your playing style could drastically change after Night One, after you have confirmed your scumminess (although you could easily attribute this to role-claiming a Cop/Doc, depending on hints dropped by other players).

Any thoughts?

[Fritzler]

I like the idea, I've not looked at my role in games before, but in open setup games, it could have some problems. An example would be if mafia calimed cop D1 after being bandwagoned, and you didn't realize you were cop until D2, it could be a total mess, with you counter claiming them on day 2. (I wouldn't believe a counter claim a day later probably).

[MeMe]

Well, certainly an interesting idea, but not practical, in my opinion.

Scum have the opportunity to talk before day one starts in most newbie games -- so unless your partner decides to be a non-looker, it's quite possible you'll get a PM from him/her and your plan will be ruined if you're scum.

If you're town and you're about to be lynched, you do the town a great disservice by not claiming --

especially

if you're a power role.

And, last but not least, it would kind of ruin the entire point of the game. The whole idea is for an uninformed majority to catch the informed minority. If you keep yourself uninformed as scum, there's really no

strategy

to the game! The real challenge (and fun) is to get proficient in "playing like town" even when you're NOT town and to lock-on to the slip-ups of the opposing team to use to the greatest advantage.

I see what you're saying about not giving anything away...but evil passing themselves off as good while the good try to root out the evil is what this game

is

. Take away the "passing themselves off as" part and you don't have much.

[Stewie]

The idea is not bad. There are a few disadvantages. One which wasn't mentioned is that newbie games are there so that new players learn how to play. You don't want to ignore your PM, because that won't do you any good in a regular game. Instead, what you want to do (and I do) is check your role PM, and forget what it was as soon as the game starts. At first I wasn't able to do it, but now I can forget my role pretty easely. However, sometimes you need to go back, since you might need to counterclaim, or make sure that the person you are lynching isn't in your team.

EDIT: I wrote this a bit too fast... What I meant when I said "Instead, what you want to do..." is that if you want to play as if you didn't know you were scum, the best way is to forget you are scum. There are many other ways to play as scum other than forgetting your role.

[petroleumjelly]

Thanks for the comments; I certainly would not like to play without knowing what my role was, but the idea of simply remaining uninformed was intriguing to me as a Scum strategy.

I was actually hoping to get reasons for dissuasion, and that's exactly what I got; my initial reaction (ala Meme's reaction) was that to do such a thing was contrary to the point of Mafia... but I still could not help the temptation, so I thought I had best ask before practicing such a tactic. Thanks again!

Edit: But in response to Fritzler, I could (if I were to seriously pursue this tactic) simply add an addendum.

It may look something like this:

"I will not look at my role, and thus assume I am a vanilla townie,

on the condition

that there are no Cop claims or Doc claims. Also, after a Day 1 lynching, I would look at my role

regardless

, so a claim is still not out of the question on Day 2, and I can still protect, investigate, or PM my Scum partner for actions on Night 1."

Double Edit: Ugh, sorry. In response to Meme's point that not claiming if I (or whoever chose to try this tactic) were bandwagoned, I could simply add something like:

"I will not look at my role, and thus assume I am a vanilla townie,

on the condition

that there are no Cop claims or Doc claims. If I am bandwagoned, I

will

check my role and claim townie (or Doc/Cop if it seems more advantageous) if I am either townie or Scum, or claim Doc/Cop if that is my role and I do not believe that a simple Townie claim will put me in the clear. Also, after a Day 1 lynching, I would look at my role

regardless

, so a claim is still not out of the question on Day 2, and I can still protect, investigate, or PM my Scum partner for actions on Night 1".

Hope I'm not coming across as argumentative, just trying to see if there is any way to justify such actions.

[Fritzler]

But by that token, if you tell people that, and you are completely different day 2 (as you could well be), wouldn't it be logical for them to assume you are scum then?

[PolarBoy]

I almost want to see what such a game would look like. I've never been in a game before where I couldn't even trust myself.

However, assuming it really is optimal play then there's no reason to do anything day one except randomly lynch someone to get on with the game.

In fact, I can't think of a reason anyone should look at their role in a game with no night actions.

I think pj (can I call you pj?) may have found a good argument for starting night one instead of day one.

[petroleumjelly]

In response to Fritzler (again, I am really not trying to be argumentative, just trying to clarify things, I really appreciate this conversation):

By any token, I would under no circumstance tell the other players I had not looked at my role; if I were to do so, it would probably be taken as an immensely scummy-sounding thing to say, and I would probably be bandwagoned which would force me to look at my role. Also, if my style were to change after Night 1 (which would only happen if I were Scum, Doc, or Cop) I would attribute it to:

a.) If Doc/Cop, not wanting to make myself a big target
b.) If Scum (and if changing style is pointed out) I would either try to dismiss such a claim and say I'm just a simple Townie, or I would just role-claim Doc/Cop, whichever the situation calls for.

In response to PolarBoy:

Yes, you may call me PJ (though I have found people like calling me Jelly, ha). Also, I was certainly not trying to advocate starting Newb games with Night, though I can see how you could extrapolate my tactic and its possible advantages to such a conclusion.

As I understand it, a Newb game is supposed to give Newbs (like me) a chance at playing Mafia by being thrown into an informationless lynching and being forced to accuse, vote, defend, and keep up with discussion rather than having the chance of being Nightkilled and forced to sign up for another game and possibly wait a couple more weeks to play... that could definitely discourage potential recruits!

Also, if Newb games were to start with night, there would have to be 8 players... and since only 1-2 players are usually IC (Inexperience Challenged?) per game, they will likely be Nightkilled for their experience, which would take away learning potential for the remaining players. Further, if there are 8 players, I would think it necessary to only allow Scum to do night actions, since allowing a Doc to protect could leave the Scum at a 6-2 disadvantage with probably a confirmed innocent (the protected) and a confirmed (if they choose to do so) Doc, or alternately, allowing a Cop an extra night of investigation would weigh heavily in favor of the town. Further, if Scum manage to kill a Doc/Cop night one, that takes away from potential role claims and leaves the town with one less strong role than the moderator intended.

On another note, I am supposed to be writing an essay right now, and unfortunately, the subject is not Mafia. I will continue to check up on this thread though, I hadn't considered all the possibilities that my question entailed.

[PolarBoy]

I never said it was a good enough reason to start newbie games with night: Those follow their own rules. But there's a perennial argument as to whether starting on night one serves any purpose important enough to offset it's potential to imbalance a game at random, as well as the annoyance of experienced players only surviving night one as scum.

What I see here is a strategic point which may make it necessary to start with night one.

At any rate it was an insightful question. I can tell you will enrich mafia by playing it. Welcome to MafiaScum.

[MeMe]

I can tell you will enrich mafia by playing it. Welcome to MafiaScum.

Hear! Hear!

[BrianMcQueso]

I like this Jelly fellow. StrykkerVerde is notorious for not looking at his PMs before the first Day, and I've been looking for good reasons to stop him. Plus, I'm a big Mafia Theory Nut.

Also, the idea of everybody in the town starting "blind" inspires setup ideas. The game would be interesting with a town full of "Amensia Victim" roles, especially since it would let a change in behavior really shine through and allow playskill to dominate.

Also, he started a thread before even playing a game. I smell seeds of a spammer, if only I can corrupt him to the dark side... MUAHAHAHAHA

Welcome aboard, PJ. Let the hazing begin!

paddle: PJ

[Cadmium]

I've never been in a game before where I couldn't even trust myself.

Maybe you should sign up for Bible Verse Mafia then . I'm not going to give any role descriptions, just verse numbers and whether or not a choice should be sent.

[Puzzle]

Done that (in a non-newbie).

I ended pointing at a group of 4 in which I had 2 co-scums, voting and attacking one of them, being forced to claim, looking at my PM, panicking when realizing the situation and getting lynched.
On the + side, the fellow I had attacked ended up being considered almost cleared.

[Mr. Flay]

Unknown Role mafia (in Little Italy) right now is going through a "blind" game setup - your vote determines your night action choice, if any, and you have no idea if you're cop, townie, or even scum! It's...interesting, but I'm not sure I'd advocate it. On the one hand, it's really confusing, and on the other, even more artificial than our usual game mechanics.

On the other hand, your idea of not looking at your OWN role PM for strategic purposes is not bad, actually. In a Newbie Game, Scum want to look like town (and sometimes power roles), and the Doc wants to look like a Townie, and the Cop wants to look like a Townie *unless* they're angling for a N1 protection. So "forgetting"/not looking at your role before you play can help almost anybody. On the other hand, you've added so many caveats that I fully believe you're capable of playing

as if

you never looked at your role, so don't expect me to believe you when you claim to have done this in-game, now.

But on the gripping hand, I'll echo what other folks have said: Welcome to MafiaScum! You seem to have a shrewdly analytical head, and you may want to spend some of that time while you're waiting for your next game to start scanning through the rest of this forum. Theory doesn't always translate into practice, but I read up a LOT here before I finally signed up, and I think it's always helped me get a fast start. Cheers!

P.S. You can always sign up for games in other forums besides Newbies, provided you have the time to commit to multiple games. You're absolutely right about no N1 kills for newbies being one of the primary reasons Newbie Games start with Day, even though it does make it somewhat tougher.

[Norinel]

I'd actually considered doing this once. Nice. The thing is that playing exactly as you would as townie is only medium mafia Day play; better would be to use your knowledge as a net detriment to the town, so that they'd be less likely to lynch mafia than random. That's hard, of course, but ignoring your role won't help you do it.

[SpeedyKQ]

In fact, I can't think of a reason anyone should look at their role in a game with no night actions.

If you are mafia or mason, you may want to know who your partners are so you don't go after them.

[Seol]

In fact, I can't think of a reason anyone should look at their role in a game with no night actions.

If you are mafia or mason, you may want to know who your partners are so you don't go after them.

Isn't that the point of not reading your role PM - if you're Mafia, you don't tie yourself to your mafia-mates by defending them inappropriately/ignoring implicating arguments.

Of course, the mason point stands, and it strikes me that if anyone ever tries to defend themselves on the basis of not having read their role PM, they should be strung up immediately as a metagame strategy.

[petroleumjelly]

Say, lots of feedback now. First off, thank all of you for the warm welcome (though I will likely not be able to sit for the remainder of the day from the paddling) and encouragement, hope I don't disappoint come time for my first game! And to take up Mr. Flay, I have read a good number of games now, but I agree and will look for strategies in the general discussion forum as well.

So lets see... I agree that in any game other than a Newb game it would probably not be the best tactic to not look at your role PM, even if there are no night actions. I just read this one the other day, but in the "Mute Monk Mafia" (or whatever it was called) some players had "activation" words they could use during the day, the players tried to communicate with each other through "code" words, and there was a chance of being modkilled if you said something wrong because you had not read your PM. In other games, you may have an ability (such as being able to stop a lynch [though this was only done through a clever role claim, it would seem] or having one extra anonymous vote in a lynch - both presented in the Les Mis Mafia) that can be used during the day through PM'ing the mod, and of course, the reasons presented by the comments above and others (knowing other masons, knowing other Scum, knowing if you're a 'bodyguard' to someone, if you 'know offhand' who the Mafia are [don't remember where that one was], etc.)

In that light, the

only

types of games that I would (unless you like taking risks) advocate not looking at your role is a Newb game, precisely because it begins with day, and the fact that there are no Masons or special abilities that can be triggered or used during a Mafia "day" or "twilight". Yes, there is a possibility in stringing up your Scum partner, but that should give you a reasonable argument of being in the clear (unless a Cop has investigated you)... further, it is not detrimental to the town on the first day to play like a Townie if you are Cop/Doc; rather a townie be killed (or attempted to be killed) Night 1 then you in that scenario, I would say (though I can see the argument that you may want to be protected Night 1 if you are the Cop).

And in response to Seol, I don't believe it would ever be good strategy to actually tell anybody that you have not read your PM... if I were to attack a fellow Mason or Scum, and got a PM saying "WTF are you doing?!", I would simply reply that I wanted to distance myself from them (though granted that could easily backfire if I got a fellow Mason lynched, since I would undoubtedly be seen as scum come the next morning!).

To re-address Mr. Flay, I thought I read somewhere that you had to play 5 games before signing up for a Mini/Theme/New York game? I'm guessing this isn't strictly enforced now even if I did read it somewhere, but I still think I had best finish at least one Newb game before I try for bigger and better things.

And (hmm, starting to get long here) I feel kinda squishy inside now that I've gotten replies from so many players I recognize from games I've read... and the fact that Brian has apparantly stalked me to get in my Newb game. You better not try and get me lynched the first day!

I was going to say something else as well but it seems to have sprouted legs and walked away.

[Mr. Flay]

To re-address Mr. Flay, I thought I read somewhere that you had to play 5 games before signing up for a Mini/Theme/New York game? I'm guessing this isn't strictly enforced now even if I did read it somewhere, but I still think I had best finish at least one Newb game before I try for bigger and better things.

Not exactly; you're not considered "Inexperience-Challenged" (IC, or a non-newbie) for the purpose of Newbie Games until you've done five games, and I think 3 months

hard time

playing time... but nothing says all five of those games have to be Newbies.

Some mods will be reluctant to take brand new players because of the possibility of flake-out, but usually you can find plenty of Minis to play even if one mod is leery, and I'll take brand-new players usually, if I can get an email to poke them with, should they disappear...

As for your theory comments, I still think it's advisable to play 'slightly better than random" if you're scum, so looking at your PM would allow you to make very plausible, very subtle changes to your gameplay to increase the chances of not lynching your partner, while still appearing to be nothing more than a Townie.

[Tyfo]

(unless a Cop has investigated you)

Insane/Reversed/Paranoid Cop. (not available in newbie games though)

Welcome to MafiaScum, oh, if only us other newbies had an entrance like that.

The theory is excellent and well thought trough; people tend to play different when they are evil-aligned, (as the CommonTells on MafiaWiki will tell you about), even though they try their best at being "normal".

[VitaminR]

It's an interesting tactic, but I think it could only ever work as an individual tactic. If everyone is unaware of role, the lynch becomes either random or based on a structural fault in behaviour. That's not at all advantageous to scum (I seem to remember the scum-lynch percentage in newbie games being below random, anyway otherwise it's town).*

Also, a claim invalidates the principle. A townie claim won't get someone out of a tough spot easily and a doc/cop claim would force the other players to look at their own role PM's.

Anyway, as a fellow newbie, welcome to Mafia Scum.
I definitely look forward to playing you in Summit Mafia.

*This leads me to the thought: why not go for a random lynch day one in a newbie game?
Okay, it wouldn't be a valuable educational experience, but in a purely theoretical sense it's an interesting notion. It would have be done through the mod, maybe like a no lynch.

[inHimshallibe]

Brian, you're trying to steal all my ideas. Meanie.

I've had a delayed role reveal in the making for some time.

[Changling bob]

I will have stuff to say on this topic when Unknown Role mafia has finished.

*makes note to return later*

[Fritzler]

I think I"m going to try some games completely blind sometime.

[Yosarian2]

In fact, I can't think of a reason anyone should look at their role in a game with no night actions.

If you are mafia or mason, you may want to know who your partners are so you don't go after them.

Isn't that the point of not reading your role PM - if you're Mafia, you don't tie yourself to your mafia-mates by defending them inappropriately/ignoring implicating arguments.

Actually, I think the big danger with not reading your mafia role PM would be that you might be scum, and might accidently DEFEND your scum-mate without even knowing it.

Or you might make some comment like "Boy, I hope we have a cop" and then discover you are a cop, only to have no one believe you when you try to claim because of your earlier comment.

Basically, the more information you have, the better. The reason people with different roles play differently is because there are some situations where it's actually a good idea to play differently depending on what your role is. If you don't know what your role is, you might trap yourself with your own ignorance.