Masons

[BabyJesus]

FYI - Mason members that side with scum as neutrals, when the other mason is fully pro-town is a BAD idea.

[TBuG]

Hey, I read Weather Mafia, and I thought that the Cloudy role was a pretty interesting role that I would consider using.

[BabyJesus]

Hey, I read Weather Mafia, and I thought that the Cloudy role was a pretty interesting role that I would consider using.

OUT

[Someone]

If I were to use non-completely pro-town masons, I would be sure not to put "You know each other to be pro-town" in the role PM. I would still use them, though.

[TBuG]

BJ, I think part of the reason you're upset is because you were one of the completely pro-town masons...

[Blackberry]

I agree with BJ... if you're going to have masons, make them

real

masons. The neutral makes no sense...

[Mr_Gnome_It_All]

Well, when

you

make the game, you can do things how you want. Otherwise people can make the roles however they want and it's not your place to argue with them.

[Blackberry]

And why isn't it "my place" to argue with them?

I believe we have freedom of speech and opinion.

I don't appreciate your attitude.

[BabyJesus]

Well, when

you

make the game, you can do things how you want. Otherwise people can make the roles however they want and it's not your place to argue with them.

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[i]Mafia Discussion[/i]
This forum is for discussion related to the game (theory, role ideas, game ideas, etc.).

I thought this was a good forum to discuss roles that I thought didn't work out so well....

[Seol]

Hell, this is Mafia we're talking about. If you're making assumptions or trusting anyone without damn good proof, that's your own stupid fault. Anything that makes people question what's going on, and promotes a paranoid atmosphere of distrust and unexpected backstabbery is simply reinforcing the central tenet of this fine game.

[rolandofthewhite]

This argument is making me laugh.

[mith]

BJ - It's an overused mechanic, and when it's done, it's not usually done that well. In Weather, you're definitely right, 4 scum together in a 12 person game (that's essentially what it was, as Cloudy's best plan was to get the scum to a win ASAP) is unbalanced.

It doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad role in *all* games. Mods just need to be a lot more careful with it. In DP's Mafia 24 on the GL he had at least one mechanic that could point to the Godfather Mason being scum (unfortunately, the town missed it).

MGIA - BJ and Blackberry are perfectly within their rights to complain all they want. If no one ever complained about setups, moderators would never get better. Moderating is not a license to do whatever you like with no consideration for the enjoyment of the players. Moderators should definitely be very careful using roles like this.

Seol - It is very reasonable to take "you and these other two are masons" as "damn good proof" that they are in fact innocent; that's kinda the entire point of the mason role. I certainly can't fault BJ for trusting "Cloudy" in a game like that. Intrigue, we knew it was a possibility. Ditto with the Milan game mentioned above. This was kinda out of nowhere, and the setup was definitely skewed in favor of the Mafia.

[BabyJesus]

BJ - It's an overused mechanic, and when it's done, it's not usually done that well. In Weather, you're definitely right, 4 scum together in a 12 person game (that's essentially what it was, as Cloudy's best plan was to get the scum to a win ASAP) is unbalanced.

It doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad role in *all* games. Mods just need to be a lot more careful with it. In DP's Mafia 24 on the GL he had at least one mechanic that could point to the Godfather Mason being scum (unfortunately, the town missed it).

MGIA - BJ and Blackberry are perfectly within their rights to complain all they want. If no one ever complained about setups, moderators would never get better. Moderating is not a license to do whatever you like with no consideration for the enjoyment of the players. Moderators should definitely be very careful using roles like this.

Seol - It is very reasonable to take "you and these other two are masons" as "damn good proof" that they are in fact innocent; that's kinda the entire point of the mason role. I certainly can't fault BJ for trusting "Cloudy" in a game like that. Intrigue, we knew it was a possibility. Ditto with the Milan game mentioned above. This was kinda out of nowhere, and the setup was definitely skewed in favor of the Mafia.

For the record, I enjoyed the game, and thought Crola did an excellent mod job....I'm just making a point that "particular" role which apparently has been used before isn;t that great....

I had never seen it before, every game I've been a mason, we were always gg's together...

It's ok, I just plan on trying to get a certain backstabbing mason killed D1 for a while..

[Blackberry]

It's ok, I just plan on trying to get a certain backstabbing mason killed D1 for a while..

lol @ BJ

[bigbenwd]

in my game, I had mason-ish roles, one was a cop, one doc and one mafia member, they knew their role and thast the other two were either an X or a Y, but they didn't know who was who, I thought it worked out pretty well.

[vikingfan]

I like having scum as masons. Too often in games, people take the easy way out and mass claim to eradicate scum- putting scum in among masons eliminates that and makes people actually PLAY.

[Stewie]

I don't think it's a bad role altogether, but that it has to be used only when balancing an evil role which has little chance of success outside the mason, such as a sk.

[rolandofthewhite]

I disagree on this. In one of my favorite games (Sangreal Mafia by Phoebus, methinks), It came down to 3 Masons (DP, someone else, and I) and BlueSin, who was the Sangreal. We knew there was only one more scum left, but we thought it out and even though DP was in our Mason group, all signs pointed to him and we lynched him, and he was the last scum who was hiding in our group.

Basically, it makes it a lot more challenging and fun. You just have to remember not to take things for granted, and unless your role PM officially says "You are all pro-town", then always be cautious.

[Mr. Flay]

I wouldn't want to get in the habit of *knowing* that the "You are all pro-town masons." in my Role PM meant I had to lynch one of my partners. That's meta-gaming, IMO. Hell, our cop and doc roles usually refer to "You'll find out if someone is scum" or "You'll save someone from death", despite the fact that it's Not Always The Case.

Take what the mod tells you with a grain of salt. The only place I would explicitly say "You can be 100% certain of your protection/investigation/partner" is in a Road to Rome game.

[Thok]

I disagree on this. In one of my favorite games (Sangreal Mafia by Phoebus, methinks), It came down to 3 Masons (DP, someone else, and I) and BlueSin, who was the Sangreal. We knew there was only one more scum left, but we thought it out and even though DP was in our Mason group, all signs pointed to him and we lynched him, and he was the last scum who was hiding in our group.

I was the someone else. We also had the advantage of a theme that suggested a Mason scum as a likely possibility, and a semiuseful cop investigation (by a scum cop, but one who had no real reason to lie that much).

[Dragon Phoenix]

Still, well played Thok. You were the one who basically saw through me.

In DP's Mafia 24 on the GL he had at least one mechanic that could point to the Godfather Mason being scum (unfortunately, the town missed it).

The gunsmith would find out that the mason GF had a gun. He did check him, and stated in the game thread that "apparently the masons have guns". Somehow the other masons did not pick up on this.

[mith]

Somehow the other masons did not pick up on this.

Mow was already dead at that point, and I was entertaining a certain dozy northern bint at the time. I never even saw it before I died (the next night). Bad timing.

[Assasin]

What about Alias Mafia? There was a three person mason that had pretty much every power and one of them was the godfather. The Godfather one when there were three people left and he was thought of as innocent.

[Crola]

FYI - Mason members that side with scum as neutrals, when the other mason is fully pro-town is a BAD idea.

I'm glad you enjoyed my game, and I admitted that it was unbalanced in favor of mafia. It was an overcorrection to my last game, Item Mafia in which case the town overpowered the mafia, but the mafia still won.

I think the idea of a neutral player is a good one, it just has to be properly used. I encourage other players to use ideas that I've made, or ideas that I thought I'vemade but were already made and I just don't know it.

I agree a hundred percent with Seol, besides, if my role were crazy like that, how am I supposed to make people paranoid like me?

[PeaceBringer]

I beleive I replaced in a game that had an evil masonish pair an that bad guy won I think.

Essentially the neutral is someone that can pick there side.

I would have some sort of restrictions on that ascpect where certain conditions have to be met. Say find a player then you join there side. Neutrals I think could be pretty mucky.

Evil mason is interesting. Where we play with recruiting/turns happening in most games there was a game where the masons couldn't be turned, which was interesting dynamic. BJ won that game FYI (No reveal, incredible odds) as scum.

If a mason was recruited/turned that would be interesting.
If there are evil masons or anything like that a possible dynamic to sort it out is helpful.

It sounds like in the game BJ was in, it was just set up for a mafia win. Although having a recruitment could possibly produced similar results.