Experienced Players in Newbie Games - Responsibility

[LoudmouthLee]

As a very involved member of the MafiaScum site, I see a trend forming, and I believe that we should discuss it.

The newbie game is an important facet of this site. In order to keep this game growing and thriving, the newbie games need good experienced players to help guide these new players throughout numerous things.

-Logical thought in regards to Mafia
-Ability to play both scum and townie roles.
-Mafia Etiquette

-and more.

I believe that an prime example of this was Maximus's mafia (which he abandoned, but Nanook Finished). After speaking extensively with Stam, Kain, and bit of EYNH, they ALL felt that they learned a whole lot from that game. Kudos to Flay and Kahunia for being good experienced players.

My general feeling (and no naming names), is that some players aren't aware of the "pseudo-responsibility" of the newbie game and what it entails.

I don't know a plausable way to rectify this, however, I believe it should discussed. It was an important discussion on making the Newbie games "more fair" in regards to winning and losing. I believe, it's more important to work out HOW MUCH THE NEWBIES LEARN about Mafia.

In other words, we need experienced players to "play" newbies, and take the games seriously...

Even if they're townies.

[rolandofthewhite]

This made me feel guilty. I'm going to sign up for a newbie game now.

[Maximumum]

Well said, LML.

Back in November when I was directed to this site I had only ever played one game of Mafia. Having the priviledge of playing and learning from some of the best players on this site (Mr. Flay, MeMe, StD, mathcam, NanookTheWolf, just to name a few) in the "Road to Rome" games helped tremendously to educate me. Because I was well taught I felt comfortable enough to start games in the other forums.
The people signing up in the newbie queue are the future player pool for the mini/theme/regular games. If they have a great time (and learn the game at the same time) in a newbie game they are more likely to stick around and keep playing. Expanding the player pool can be very beneficial.

[LoudmouthLee]

Maxi, you are a shining example (along with Seol), of what happens when someone is taught well and loves to play. Maxi, I'm in awe of your skill

We don't need everyone to play newbies. Instead, we need QUALITY players to play newbies. People who want to teach, and help Mafia and MafiaScum grow bigger and better.

[MeMe]

I'm certainly in agreement with you, LmL. I always cringe when I see those playing under the label of "experienced" acting anything but. It'd be great if there was some approval process in place...I mean, # of games played/length of time on site are necessary pieces of experience, but they obviously don't tell a complete story about a player's abilties and/or interest in working hard in newbie games.

We

do

have a lot of new players trying us out through Road to Rome and I think that good players should take a cue from roland and sign-up. I understand what you're saying about us not needing "everyone" to play newbie games...but there are quite a few of us who could/should be playing but, for some reason, aren't.

If we want newbies to become regulars who treat our site and games with respect, it's our responsibility to be welcoming examples to them.

[Phoebus]

So how are you going to go about classifying the QUALITY from the "site experience" i.e. amount of time here, games played etc.?

[rolandofthewhite]

I'm not the best of players though. What sort of standard do I need to meet?

[olio]

When I had my first newbie games, they gave most when there was discussion and participation. Usually they had to be engouraged by experienced players. If you have many games going on and you're not participating in all of them, you should ask yourself if you can really give a good example of playing in newbie game.

[shelper]

So how are you going to go about classifying the QUALITY from the "site experience" i.e. amount of time here, games played etc.?

I'm not really sure that's the best way to go about it.
I think everybody should just ask themselves before signing up "Am i signing up just so i can play another game or am i signing up so i can help new people learn the game. Do i have the time right now to explain the basic mechanics to newbies, do i have the patience to explain my every vote and my reasoning behind that vote" and so on...

[Mgm]

You could debrief the newbies about how they feel the game went and what they learnt.

[mathcam]

My two cents: First, I agree with pretty much everything that LML said. Second, Roland, you're not even borderline, so don't worry about it.

Third, and most importantly, I'd like to ditto and further LML's sentiment , but applied to newbie mods. Despite the fact that newbie mods should be relatively simple to mod, they should

not

be treated as a training run for the moderator. This is partially taken care of by the requirement that newbie mods already have some experience in Little Italy, but I'm not sure this is sufficient. Since the newbie mod is so instrumental in determining whether or not a new player will play a second game on the site, the newbie games should be a well-oiled machines; Mods should have a comprehensive understanding of what to do in the myriad of situations (usual and unusual) that arise...rules posts, finding replacements, deadling with rule infractions, etc. I don't really have a suggestion right now on how to fix this, but it's worth thinking about.

Actually, maybe all that's needed is a "How to run a newbie game" wiki article...I'll think about that.

Cam

[MeMe]

Oh,

Amen

, mathcam.

I've yet to act as a trainer for mods in newbie games because I just think it's a

bad idea

to have inexperienced mods running newbies -- and it doesn't provide the experience necessary to write and run more complicated games anyway, so why are we doing it?

I just assumed I was the only one who saw it as a problem and didn't want to complain about it by myself -- so I'm oh-so-glad to jump up in agreement!

[Mr. Flay]

Back in November when I was directed to this site I had only ever played one game of Mafia. Having the priviledge of playing and learning from some of the best players on this site (Mr. Flay, MeMe, StD, mathcam, NanookTheWolf, just to name a few) in the "Road to Rome" games helped tremendously to educate me. Because I was well taught I felt comfortable enough to start games in the other forums.

Thanks, Maximumumum. I'm certainly a prolific poster, while I'm not sure I'm all that good of a player (I've got more experience as scum than town, which is sort of weird to begin with), but I do take the Road to Rome games seriously as a training tool for future players. I think I had the pleasure of playing with mathcam AND Seol in Newbie...73? which was just nerve-wracking because they're both so good (no slight intended to the other players in that game)...but even my fellow scum in that game learned a lot, even though we lost. I generally play in a newbie game when I have time, and if I wasn't modding two and playing in Good Omens right now, I'd be joining another...they're fun, fast paced, and the new Variant 93 has really sleared a lot of the staleness out of them, I think.

I've yet to act as a trainer for mods in newbie games because I just think it's a bad idea to have inexperienced mods running newbies -- and it doesn't provide the experience necessary to write and run more complicated games anyway, so why are we doing it?

Can I second this seconding of mathcam? I don't get the impression we're

that

* short of mods in Road to Rome that we need to be training people there - as 'cam said, they should be flawless from a game mechanics perspective...that gives the players room to grow comfortable with the strategy and psychology of the game without worrying that someone's going to blindside them. Every time I see someone sign up to moderate for the first time in Road to Rome, with someone else seconding them, I cringe...not because of who they are, but because I worry about the 4 new players who are going to have to learn along with that person.

Sure, we all have to learn something, sometime; both Dodecamafia and Werewolf have taught me balance and feel issues that make me a better mod. But do it in a place that can be just a

bit

more forgiving, not with our newest recruits.

*clink*clink*

P.S. If you

are

getting short on mods, feel free to call me in, Norinel. I can run mechanics pretty well by this point, I hope, even though my second game isn't finished. Sorry for hijacking!

[BabyJesus]

In other words, we need experienced players to "play" newbies, and take the games seriously...

there are people that take these games seriously???

Hmm....that explains alot.

[Seol]

In other words, we need experienced players to "play" newbies, and take the games seriously...

there are people that take these games seriously???

Hmm....that explains alot.

sigged.

hoo-hah!

[jeep]

I thought we had already stated that Newbie mods would only ever be "very" experienced mods. Seriously, even though the set up is relatively simple, we want our best mods doing newbie games. The newbies are the most likely to flake (which is why we started TRTR, isn't it?) and we need someone who can handle that.

As to the experienced players, I agree we need to ensure that the players are actually going to represent how we want people to see and be on mafiascum.

-JEEP

[BrianMcQueso]

I think some of the "step above basic" concepts need to be explained to newer players before the game even begins. While a new player can scan the Wiki all day and learn the rules, there's so much to the game that goes beyond rules. The concept of random and "OMGUS" voting, when claims are appropriate, how counter-claims work, why we lynch lurkers, and so forth, are as important to understand as what a cop investigation does.

Another duty of the moderator that goes beyond helping the newer players is keeping the other players in line. Newer players shouldn't be talked down to or call "n00bs", even if they make play mistakes. We all make mistakes, and we all learn from them (or at least we should). Even if it comes down to Day 3 and the new player casts the lynching vote on the innocent instead of the scum, it's not that big a deal. They shouldn't be held responsible for the entire town's defeat, and they should be told that. It's a team effort, a group game. And in the end, it's just a friggin' game, of course.

[Puzzle]

All this is quite right.
However, I think there should also be average players such as myself in Newbie games. The reason is that if you dip 2 newbies against 5 that they will perceive as too good, there is a distinct risk to disgust them from playing again, due to the difference of level.

Something that could be encouraged also would be to :
- generate situations to discuss. Maybe even commit some (very) minor misplays for Newbies to detect.
- ask newbies to post their analysis of the others on the evening of day 2, once there is content for them to detect.

The purpose of these games should indeed be to confirm newbies' interests and make them want to play more, not to win or deter them.

[Dasquian]

I think the most important thing for the experienced players to do is be friendly, active and avoid being too esoteric with their plays. Newbies aren't stupid, just inexperienced, so there's no need to dumb down the game - as long as everything is being explained in perhaps a little more detail than it would normally be, the best introduction to Mafia is a typical game with active players and a friendly atmosphere.

Anything else would be non-representative of what newbies are getting themselves into

[!Chucklez!]

I have found the newbie game I am in to be quite fun, and helpful. Seol, MeMe, Axelrod, and rolandofthewhite have made it rather challenging too. I think it's a great idea to have them, and from what I've seen the more experianced players are doing a great job in easing us newbies into the game.

[halo freak]

i think a good way of gauging someones experience is the number of posts that they have made, since they are only recorded in the games and in the other parts of the site they should be quite accurate. One problem with this is that if we set a number of posts that someone must have made before they are considered experience there might be a bunch of newbies making short regular posts instead of detailed posts so that system might not be suitable for everyone.

I think question asking should be encouraged so newbies don't feel under pressure to read past games (i found this really boring when i was starting, i also found that reading over a past game is not quite the same as playing in it) or search around the site for answers. I always add "if you have any questions about your role or the game in general feel free to PM" when modding and i think that encouragment like is a good idea.

Even if it comes down to Day 3 and the new player casts the lynching vote on the innocent instead of the scum, it's not that big a deal

In my first game i let Tally put the final vote on the town so i escaped
But good point and i think people should also be ready to point out that the player who added the final vote is not responsible for the lynch and that everyone voting played a part in the death of the person in question.

[!Chucklez!]

I think question asking should be encouraged so newbies don't feel under pressure to read past games (i found this really boring when i was starting, i also found that reading over a past game is not quite the same as playing in it) or search around the site for answers. I always add "if you have any questions about your role or the game in general feel free to PM" when modding and i think that encouragment like is a good idea.

While encouraging questions is good, I found reading old games to be very helpful. I understood the game from reading the Wiki, but once you see the game function and flow in a thread you really begin to see hwo to play. I read through several, and it helped me 'hit the ground running' so to speak.

[esme]

My general feeling (and no naming names), is that some players aren't aware of the "pseudo-responsibility" of the newbie game and what it entails.

...
In other words, we need experienced players to "play" newbies, and take the games seriously...

Maybe you should have a look at Newbie 134 where you theoretically participate? Not that it matters to me much now.

[NanookTheWolf]

I'd prefer if you didn't talk about the game (which is still currently running) until the game is over. This is the second time I've noticed a post of yours referencing my game, and I'd appreciate it if you would wait til the game is over and then post any thoughts you may have about it.

Thanx

[Mr. Flay]

I'd prefer if you didn't talk about the game (which is still currently running) until the game is over. This is the second time I've noticed a post of yours referencing my game, and I'd appreciate it if you would wait til the game is over and then post any thoughts you may have about it.

I don't see where this follows from a post pointing out that someone is not participating in one of their games. Aside from implying that she's dead, she didn't reveal any game information about herself or LML, and making the point that the person who started this thread is somewhat absent is valid, IMO...