Suggestion for newbie game setup

[Yosarian2]

I understand that the old newbie setup was unbalanced, because the cop/doc team was just too strong when a cop knew he could safely role-claim on day 1, but reading through and having been in a few of the new newbie games it appears to me that the new setup is unbalanced in favor of the mafia; it seems like it's very hard for the town to get 2 out of 3 lynches right without a cop. So, for another possible newbie game setup, how about just have a setup where every newbie game has a cop, and there's a 50/50 chance that there's also a doc? In other words, the only two possible setups would be:

Cop, doc, 2 mafia, 3 townies
Cop, 4 townies, 2 mafia

with a 50/50 chance of each one being used.

It seems like that would prevent the breaking stratagy of the day 1 cop claim, but would leave a somewhat more balanced game then the random setups we have now. What does everyone think?

[Save The Dragons]

But see, to balance all the town win games, the prophecy says a new group will rise and take power in the newbie domain.

Actually, the whole problem with the original set-up was the fact that there was a cop. Making sure there's a cop, regardless of doc, doesn't help much. Although, of course, without the doc, the mafia will have a better chance...

[Mr. Flay]

I think you're just seeing a swing of the balance toward mafia for a while. Read back to some of the *original* newbie games, and you'll see that scum won a lot of those, too, until the town developed some strategy/skill. It's entirely possible to win a game without a cop; it just requires more skill and less reliance on one power role.

Also, it's entirely possible that this set up *will* continue to result in more mafia wins than before. But that's okay; we're training mafia too, not just townies. When the mafia strategy is as reductionist as "kill doc, kill cop", or "claim cop, give up", it's no fun. From a mafia side.

Also, since most games on this site aren't Open Setup (all roles known), it prepares people better for a game where there's going to be some uncertainty when everyone claims Mason and Roleblocker...

[milkman]

Why not just start the game at night? With a game starting at night there is a clear advantage to the town, but also another chance to hit a power role for mafia.

[mathcam]

First of all, keep in mind that there's nothing that says the game has to be 50/50 for each side to win. If the game is 70/30 for the mafia, that just means the town should be more proud when they win.

But I too was thinking about possible (monir) revisions to the newbie setup, and I think my recommendation will also fix your problems: We have several possiblet setups, but they all have 2 mafia. Other possibilites include:

a) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 1 doc, 3 townies
b) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 4 townies
c) 2 mafia, 1 doc, 4 townies
d) 2 mafia, 5 townies
e) 1 mafia, 1 cop, 1 doc, 4 townies
f) 1 mafia, 1 cop, 5 townies
g) 1 mafia, 1 doc, 5 townies
h) 1 mafia, 6 townies

Some of these are slightly unbalanced, so I propose making the following the list of possible setups:

a) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 1 doc, 3 townies
b) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 4 townies
c) 2 mafia, 1 doc, 4 townies
g) 1 mafia, 1 doc, 5 townies
h) 1 mafia, 6 townies

I think an advantage is that this makes it even less possible to brute force the computations for optimal strategy. A couple of draw-backs would be: 1) If a newbie gets mafia, he doesn't get exposed to the practice of discussing night choices with a partner at night (though this happens anyway if his partner is lynched day 1), and 2) Games might be shorter with only one mafia, but I don't think this is too much of a drawback.

Thoughts?

Cam

[Axelrod]

I propose making the following the list of possible setups:

a) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 1 doc, 3 townies
b) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 4 townies
c) 2 mafia, 1 doc, 4 townies
g) 1 mafia, 1 doc, 5 townies
h) 1 mafia, 6 townies

I think an advantage is that this makes it even less possible to brute force the computations for optimal strategy. A couple of draw-backs would be: 1) If a newbie gets mafia, he doesn't get exposed to the practice of discussing night choices with a partner at night (though this happens anyway if his partner is lynched day 1), and 2) Games might be shorter with only one mafia, but I don't think this is too much of a drawback.

Thoughts?

Cam

Well, given the stated purpose of the newbie games, I don't think there should be games with just one mafia in them. That really drops a major element of the game, even if it's only the opportunity to try to coordinate (or appear not to coordinate) with your partner during the day

before

there is a night. Plus there is the loss of night plans/discussion, as you say.

The benefit of making the games less predictable is just not that much of a benefit. Frankly, the new set-ups do a fine job of that. So what if the mafia "win more." (although, as I say this, I will admit that the game with 2 mafia and 5 town is quite slanted in favor of the mafia).

[Thok]

How about the following 50-50 scenario?

b) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 4 townies
c) 2 mafia, 1 doc, 4 townies

The main advantage is there's exactly one power role, so you can do interesting things with counter-claims.

As for the current set-up, it seems that good day one play is rewarded. A day one mafia lynch so far has almost always led to a town win, while a day one town lynch leads to a mafia win a majority of the time.

[Someone]

I like the original suggestion. What exactly is wrong with it?

The problem with the old newbie setups was the cop claims on day one, and the town no-lynches until the doc dies.

By alternating cop - no-cop, you solve the problem.

[warpdragon]

I came up with a solution in a previous thread. Ban "no lynch." That, and starting at night may also help.

[halo freak]

i think one mafia would be too easy, e) in mathcams post is very unbalanced.

[Save The Dragons]

The problem with one mafia is that if you gave a complete newbie that role, it's like handing him a mace and telling him to fight in a modern war.

I personally have yet to see any powerplays by scum claiming cop/doc in the new setup.

Warpdragon: No-lynch has no strategic value anymore if people keep yelling "BURN THE WITCH!" when someone does it.

[halo freak]

it might be interesting to start a game it night and see what happens

[Yosarian2]

I think you're just seeing a swing of the balance toward mafia for a while. Read back to some of the *original* newbie games, and you'll see that scum won a lot of those, too, until the town developed some strategy/skill. It's entirely possible to win a game without a cop; it just requires more skill and less reliance on one power role.

Now that I just finished the last newbie game where I was scum and so can talk about it, let me just say that in the current setup it seems much too easy for scum to win. Sure, there are other ways to find a mafia game without power roles, but the best ones involve several days of posts and voting records to look at. It's very hard to get much out one day of voting records, and without a cop, I just don't think the game is balanced.

Halo Freak: Starting at night with 7 people dosn't work. That would mean that the town would have to hit on day 1, or they would lose. I don't think that would be a good intro to mafia. You could make it an 8 person game and start at night, though.

[Yaw]

The reason we don't want to start at night is that a night kill denies someone the chance to play. Not the sort of thing you want to have happen in your first ever game. Day starts give everyone a chance.

[Mr. Flay]

Yosarian: You hit the jackpot with a 5-townie, 2-mafia game, but even then it should be perfectly possible to win it. Newbie games have been won by the Town all down the line with the cop dying Night One, and the doc never saving anyone, so those would be functionally equivalent to your setup. You never KNEW if there was going to be a cop, or a doc, in your (our) game, you just got lucky.

Go back and read through some of the earlier games if you want to see how hard it had gotten for mafia to win before the 'Variant 93' setup was initiated. These new games reflect the rest of the site a lot better (as does the generally-used convention of mafia getting to talk during Night Zero/confirmations).

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I know that the newbie games had gotten to the point where they were almost always won by the town, but I contend that the reason for that is that the cop/doc pair is too strong, especally in a game that small where a protected claimed cop can investigate most of the town very quickly. If there was just a cop and no doc, it would be more interesting and require more skill on the part of everyone, especally the cop.

In fact, I might modify my origional suggestion to say that perhaps every newbie game should be

2 mafia
4 town
1 cop

That way the mafia has to learn the skill of picking up on cop tells, and the cop has harder choices to make involving when to claim or if to claim without the "safety net" of a doctor.

In my opinion, a balanced game without any power roles would look more like this:

7 townies
2 scum

Or something like that. Without power roles, it usually takes a few days of vote counts and such in order to figure out who the mafia are, if the town and mafia are of about equal skill. Now, it might be good to run some games like that in newbie, but in a 2 scum 5 townie setup, the scum just don't have to work very hard to win; the town can really only win if the town gets very lucky, or if both scum make very serious play errors.

[EnterYourNameHere]

In the IRC chatroom I played at before I discovered this site, our normal setup was 2 mafia, 6 town, 1 cop, with these rules:

--Starts in day
--Cop is given the name of one random townie before the game starts
--The town is told if they lynch the cop, but is not told if the cop is killed at night.

These games were, for the most part, weighted towards the town, mostly thanks to the cop head-start. However, I feel that if we removed the cop head-start and used this setup, the games would be fairly balanced and teach one thing the newbie games are generally poor at teaching: fake roleclaims. Since the town will never know whether or not their cop is dead (unless he gets lynched), the town will have to be able to point out false roleclaims, and the mafia will have the opportunity to fake role claims, something scum often must do in larger games. It's just an idea, but I think it's a possible solution.

[Mr Stoofer]

I was a townie in the 5 townies, 2 mafia game with Yosarian2 and Mr Flay. As a n00b, I found it really hard and the scum played us for fools - but I don't know whether that was because we were all fools (I certainly am) or because the scum were very skilful, or a result of the setup.

But I think we have to remember:

(a) a game doesn't have to have 50/50 chance of each side winning to be educational.

(b) the

possibility

of 5 townies/2 mafia adds an important dimension to

all

newbie games.

So even if 5 townies, 2 mafia favours the mafia, that is not necessarily a good reason to get rid of it.

[Mr. Flay]

Also, if you remove the possibility of a doc, then you remove the training both for the person who gets to play the doc, and the mafia in spotting doctors, which becomes VERY important in bigger games. Cops *will* be more likely to come out in those games, and the scum have to know how to deal with that, whether it's by counter-claiming or strategizing how when and who to kill... I think the randomness benefits the overall gameplay.

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) All right, then stick to my origional proposal where there's a cop and a 50/50 chance of a doc.

I wouldn't mind if it was a case of town 30%/mafia 70%, but from what I've seen, it looks to me like in a game without a cop, the town wins less then 30% of the time. Much less then 30%.