Unvoting

[Cadmium]

It has been tradition to unvote the player you were voting before putting your vote on someone else for as long as I can remember. Of course it happened some times that someone forgot to unvote, but this never used to be a problem before. IMO, the threads were easier to follow, I didn't have to scroll back every time someone voted.

There seem to be some different views on this point lately. Some players don't see the point in unvoting and won't do it out of themselves. This has lead to mods forcing players to unvote with the vote not counting if forgotten. What happened next, is players simply typing unvote before voting, even when they're not voting for someone at that time. Now there's something I don't get. This is not only completely pointless, it also fails to meet the actual points of unvoting. You should always include the name of the ex-votee in your unvote. Most importantly, this makes the thread easier to follow for the players. Some say it also helps the mods with their vote counts, although I personally think the difference is nearly nihil (I guess it depends on how you count your votes). But I can tell you one thing, unvoting when not voting at all makes it harder to count the votes. And unvoting without telling who you're unvoting, is pretty much useless too. It also suggests that you don't even know if you're voting and/or who you're voting for.

Just thought I'd bring this up for discussion.

[Thoth]

I'm on the CB side of things. I'll let him defend our point of view

[Dasquian]

In my games, I generally acknowledge and pointedly refuse to accept "second votes" (ie the player should've unvoted first), and generally don't see a problem with people forgetting after the first couple of times. One advantage to following this protocol so rigidly is that there is no room for ambiguity - and also it allows semi-meta tactics like deliberately not unvoting first to place a dud vote on someone (though this doesn't happen often!)

Having said that, I don't often see people unvoting when they're actually not voting - sometimes I see

unvote whoever I was voting for, vote Joe-Bob

or whatever, but that's usually reflective of their overall attitude anyway.

In summary - I like to force players to unvote first, but once that becomes the accepted culture a few mistakes or errant unvotes don't seem to be too prevalent.

[MeMe]

I think names should be included with unvotes.

...But I'm a little uncomfortable with this thread since it's clear what game prompted it and 1) the no-name unvote "style" was used as a reason to place a vote on a player employing it which then led to 2) votes on the voter.

Maybe I read too much into everything, but when the mod starts a thread clearly advocating one side of debate held in one of his games...well, I can't help but take that into account.

[Phoebus]

Oh it's not just that one thread.
I'd add my two cents to this and would prefer people paying attention.
Naming whom you unvote means you are paying attention to the game and not being lackadaisical.

[Yosarian2]

Huh...interesting to see this discussion. The forums I've played on before, we didn't bother with unvotes at all, so I've been trying to get in the habit of saying

unvote

before I vote when I'm already voting for someone else. I assumed that was the norm, as that is mostly how I have seen people do it here, and thought that people generally just said

unvote:someone

for special emphasis.

[Mr. Flay]

While I would prefer people name who they unvote, I don't think I'd ever require it, or get used to it from a mod who did. It's too specialized, at this stage of the game, and the culture of MafiaScum.

Bolding Votes/Unvotes is different, that gives the mod a big help in spotting game-deciding actions. But an Unvote is valid whether or not you name the person you're unvoting (because it's ceased to be an active part of the game), and thus I wouldn't require it.

Naming whom you unvote means you are paying attention to the game and not being lackadaisical.

Other players should also be paying attention to who unvotes whom, and that's one reason I endeavour to always have a vote count near the top of each page, so they can compare notes.

In my games, I generally acknowledge and pointedly refuse to accept "second votes" (ie the player should've unvoted first), and generally don't see a problem with people forgetting after the first couple of times. One advantage to following this protocol so rigidly is that there is no room for ambiguity - and also it allows semi-meta tactics like deliberately not unvoting first to place a dud vote on someone (though this doesn't happen often!)

...

In summary - I like to force players to unvote first, but once that becomes the accepted culture a few mistakes or errant unvotes don't seem to be too prevalent.

I don't know; if you're going to be rigid about something, you can't later say "well, a few mistakes are okay" - that leads to the dreaded Mod Interference label, and I think a metaploy like "I never unvoted X so you can't really count my vote for Y" is silly, if not harmful to the game.

What we do, as moderators, is run mafia games. I don't believe we should be encoding special circumstances for "online" games that wouldn't be at least theoretically reasonable in other venues, like face to face.

But that's just me. I could be wrong. *clink*clink*

[Talitha]

I think unvoting the specific person should be strongly encouraged. It just makes the game nicer to play in somehow. It

is

the tradition around here too, and I don't see why that should change.

As a mod though, I will always count a bolded vote even if they haven't unvoted. I feel that if their intention is clear then the vote should count. Otherwise you get petty little instances that cause confusion and ruin the flow of the game.

I'm sure most people would make an effort to unvote properly if the request was put to them in a reasonable manner.

[Internet Stranger]

I would prefer if we get unvotes with names. It helps me know who a person was voting for previously.

Although im guilty myself of the "unvote whoevers" when I forget who I was voting for and I got too lazy to figure it out. A poke with a cattle prod would put me back on order.

[jeep]

Unvotes were, at one point, mostly courtesy. I think it's nice, but as a mod, I don't require them as they make no difference to me. I've gotten lazy and mostly just unvote without a name. I used to like them as a player, but after a while, they were just not important to me since I was tracking things pretty carefully myself. Although, I don't track things nearly so carefully now.

-JEEP

[PeaceBringer]

Okay, I looked for a thread on this the other day but wasn't going to start one. Here is the deal. It is a cultural aspect of Mafia Scum to use unvote. When I came here, the listing of the name was not part of it and it was hard enough for me to remember to "unvote." I find the whole concept of the unvote to be a practive in redundency. The use of unvote should not be something that provides the mod a great help. Heck there are even programs that can help a mod do vote counts. To me the whole concept is simply redundant. Now I can understand folks that got used to Unvote: Player X, vote player Y that they get used to it and miss it if it is not done. However, that is just the way you learned to play. For me I use the Mod vote counts to track votes. I personally was quite frustrated in a few games where mods vote counts did not accurately reflect the order votes occurred. I also get frustrated when vote counts really don't happen, so I can see how folks used to something can get frustrated. However, the concept in and of itself is redundant. I vote for someone, I stopped voting for someone else. Enforcing either a unvote, or unvote name for a vote to count to me is silly.

Oh and Phoebus, yes at times I unvote without directly remembering who i voted because the pace of games and being involved in faster games elsewhere sometimes who you voted for in what game slips your mind. SOmetimes though that kind of dialogue can be done to give an impression of paying less attention then you really are.

I will never enforce unvoting in a game I mod, and even will openly mock the concept. Again I understand that others learned to play differently and for them I try and adapt to the culture, as backward thinking as I may think it is.

[Phoebus]

You, of all people should know that adopting to cultural norms is easier than openly trying to dismiss them with a minority influence?

I can respect your decision not to enforce unvotes in your games. It is something I would expect from you, given your opinions on the subject and something you can do as a mod.
However, the fact that you mention openly mocking the concept where it is again a majority's norm, makes me uncomfortable.
What is the goal here? Assimilation and a good time playing? Or back biting and bitching because of non conformists?

Your post strikes two dissimilar cords.
You're entitled to your opinion about this being backward thinking but you mention adapting. At the same time you mention derision?

You get one cookie for spelling my name right though.

[Dasquian]

I don't know; if you're going to be rigid about something, you can't later say "well, a few mistakes are okay" - that leads to the dreaded Mod Interference label, and I think a metaploy like "I never unvoted X so you can't really count my vote for Y" is silly, if not harmful to the game.

I think you misread me I wouldn't make special cases on the protocol at all - I'd have a very clear pattern of refusing to accept any invalid votes, and pointing them out as invalid in my next count. If players keep on forgetting to unvote, I'll carry on refusing to accept their new votes - but in my experience, that very rapidly stops being necessary.

That all said, as a mod I could quite easily cope without the unvote; I just think it helps clarify what's going on.

[Mr. Flay]

I think unvoting the specific person should be strongly encouraged. It just makes the game nicer to play in somehow. It

is

the tradition around here too, and I don't see why that should change.

Huh. Just goes to show how much things have changed then, since I got here; I've seen more commonly the

Unvote, Vote: Talitha

than a name be involved. I try to remember to put the name in because it makes the game clearer, but I didn't realize it was once the norm.

That does change my post a bit, but I will probably not go any further than changing the sample I put in my rules to include a name, and lead by example.

Dasquian: Thanks for the clarification.

[PeaceBringer]

You, of all people should know that adopting to cultural norms is easier than openly trying to dismiss them with a minority influence?

I can respect your decision not to enforce unvotes in your games. It is something I would expect from you, given your opinions on the subject and something you can do as a mod.
However, the fact that you mention openly mocking the concept where it is again a majority's norm, makes me uncomfortable.
What is the goal here? Assimilation and a good time playing? Or back biting and bitching because of non conformists?

Your post strikes two dissimilar cords.
You're entitled to your opinion about this being backward thinking but you mention adapting. At the same time you mention derision?

You get one cookie for spelling my name right though.

In terms of derision it is just simply me complaining about the redundancy. I realize I get crap for it. I am far more tolerant then others. It is not like I post 100 times a game that I hate unvoting and find it a redundant waste. I have to force myself to do it, it is not natural to me and I let it be known. The open derision also serves to let folks know where i stand in a game and actually serves many purposes. It would be like if I were in england. I could be among brits and say you know I find driving on the left to be bizarre and silly and I have a hard time doing it. Hell I could even joke about it but if I drove on the right like normal people do I would get a ticket there. I don't go out to offend.

[MeMe]

Yeah, unvote: name used to be the norm. Check out this thread from late 2003.

[PeaceBringer]

Interestings, seems that differences in attitudes don't change. I read the same complaint of folks forgetting who the voted comment.

Again realize that this is a site issue. Saying Unvte, Vote X or Unvote X, Vote Y isn't natural for most people. Heck even most procedural methods of voting in legislatures don't involve unvoting prior to voting.

It is a site custom and some folks who are used to playing that way have developed ways of looking at the game related to it.

For me I find the read posts by XYZ to be far more helpful then I would find unvote X, vote Y especially if there are accurate and frequent vote updates.

[Someone]

Saying Unvte, Vote X or Unvote X, Vote Y isn't natural for most people. Heck even most procedural methods of voting in legislatures don't involve unvoting prior to voting.

This is where I have a problem with your logic. What is natural for most people, is how they learned to do it. If us, at mafiascum, have always done it, it is natural for us. I have always (that I can remember) tried to put a name with every unvote because I find that it helps me to follow in the games that I'm in. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to learn to unvote, peacebringer, and it would save you a lot of headaches if you did.

For me, it's not a question of making the mod's job easier, but just courtesy to all the other people in the game, to facilitate the reading and understanding of the game. I don't mind people who don't bother to look for who they're voting for, but most of the time you

should

remember, and if you do, you could just spend a few extra seconds typing it.

I do not advocate forcing people to unvote as a mod in the way that we are going about it now, because I believe it unnecessarily confuses the game. I believe that if each and every player knew that unvoting was customary here at mafiascum, then the majority of them would spend that extra few seconds to tell the other players who they are unvoting. A friendy reminder from the mod (and perhaps the players?) would be more than enough to inspire a correct unvote.

To us at mafiascum, unvoting before revoting is just like using correct spelling, not typing in all caps, and using punctuation: we cannot demand it in the games, but doing it properly makes the game easier to play.

[Someone]

Oops, forgot I had more to say.

All of what I wrote above applies to unvoting with a name, and not just unvote, vote.

Ex:

Unvote:MeMe, Vote:Peacebringer

As for unvoting without a name: it is to a certain extent, redundant; however, it is useful for when if you're trying to gain the habit of always unvoting, but you forget who you're voting for and you're too lazy to check.

[PeaceBringer]

someone, the fact that you had to learn it, means it is not natural conversation. What I see being bemoaned by some is the site, with a influx of newer people (from the grand olden days ) that Unvote X, vote Y has been lost. It is bemoaned that most folks do no in fact do it.


Oh and voting, unvoting only makes the game easier for those that it makes it easier for. Unvote, vote or unvote PDG, vote Someone doesn't do jack squat for me. Proper vote counts on the other hand do. WHen I ran across improper (not in proper sequence) vote counts I didn't fuss about it, I just went well that sucks.

This thread was started because some folks do want to force unvote X, vote Y. There is also a general putting down of folks that don't see it that way. I admit I openly mock and deried the concept because to me it is a practice in utter redundency. It is simply making my opinion known, it is not something I expect to change but I hate that aspect of playing here.

[Someone]

I agree partially.

The fact that I have to learn it means that I had to learn it. It's just like learning to bold your votes...it's not natural...but you do it anyways.

Unvoting should make the game easier. Unless you have a razor-sharp memory, you do not know who the person is voting for previously. However, you usually remember who you are voting for. Hence, the

unvote

, to remind people who you are voting for.

Furthermore, even if unvoting doesn't help you at all, it does help the majority of the people on this site, so doing it will still make the game easier for them.

I do agree that improper vote counts suck, and I too motion that some other, less interfereing, way of enforcing this rule appears. However, I do not agree that unvoting is redundant, and do not see how you can have this view.

(PS- "Someone" with a capital "S" )

[PeaceBringer]

I have this view because I don't come from here, did not learn the game here, and have played a large number of games doing it differently. The whole concept of having to "unvote" or "Unvote, X, vote Y" is entirely foreign. I have put in well over 40 games playing things differently. Granted, if I had never played before and just started playing here, and if the unvote X, vote Y were the consistent way of doing things, it would be how I learn to play the game. However, there are folks like myself and others who have learned to play elsewhere. I personally come across the no votes counting unless you unvote to be repetitive. For looking at vote changes I do that myself. Someone saying they unvote isn't going to help me one bit. It is a Duh moment. Yes, with the pace of games here it is easy to forget who was voting what, but I find the tools on this site and doing a simple review to be helpful. The unvote X, vote Y wouldn't change that one bit. Again I understand that those that learn to play the game that way can be frustrated if others don't, but others don't.
Oh and it wouldn't make it easier on me at all to do it in the format, just slows down my thinking and makes for increased multiple posts editing for compliance to something I woudln't do otherwise.

[Mr. Flay]

This thread was started because some folks do want to force unvote X, vote Y. There is also a general putting down of folks that don't see it that way. I admit I openly mock and deried the concept because to me it is a practice in utter redundency. It is simply making my opinion known, it is not something I expect to change but I hate that aspect of playing here.

I call shenanigans.

I haven't seen anyone putting down people who don't want to force people to "Unvote X, Vote Y". You've been the most derisive of everyone in the thread, that I've seen. This isn't about your

opinion

, this is about your

delivery

of said opinion.

You keep focusing on what the process does/does not do for *you*, but you're not the only player here. Not everyone keeps a spreadsheet; not everyone has a photographic memory. Not everyone HAS to keep track of what everyone else is doing, but I don't see the point in you making a public statement in a rude fashion about a practice that is generally accepted to be helpful to the game, as it is played here.

Again realize that this is a site issue. Saying Unvte, Vote X or Unvote X, Vote Y isn't natural for most people. Heck even most procedural methods of voting in legislatures don't involve unvoting prior to voting.

If we had an encoded method of recording votes here (like the poll function), then Unvotes would be redundant. Since they're done in-thread, and in bold, to help the moderator keep track of the game, your analogy to legislatures makes no sense. There are LOTS of rules for legislative votes (voice vote, show of hands, roll call, etc), and they have special circumstances, each one.

[PeaceBringer]

Mr. Flay, if you have taken anything I have said here to be rude, it is not intended. So if any offense was found I apologize. Nothing I said was meant to be taken in a rude manner. I am also sure that others don't intend to put down those who see things differently. It does come down to how it is presented.

Oh an Mr. Flay, I am not talking about the thread in general. There was a comment in a particular game about anyone who doesn't unvote player X, vote Player Y to be scummy. I have seen multiple times people who come in with a different attiutude and perspective given the run them up the first day treatment and call them scum. Again, I apoligize if I am offensive. I have made statements trying to indicate that I can see that if it is how one learned to play that you can develop ways of reading a game around that practice. I have said I find it redundant and will poke fun at it. If there is a game and a mod wants to enforce it I will try my best to follow, but will likely make a comment or 2 along the way.

[Phoebus]

In terms of derision it is just simply me complaining about the redundancy. I realize I get crap for it. I am far more tolerant then others. It is not like I post 100 times a game that I hate unvoting and find it a redundant waste. I have to force myself to do it, it is not natural to me and I let it be known. The open derision also serves to let folks know where i stand in a game and actually serves many purposes.

Well, we all know by now where you stand on the issue. You can do it here.
You have done it here. Why continue flogging the dead horse in-game?
Pray tell what other purpose it serves other than being the non conformist and while you don't go out to offend, and I don't think it offends anyone, it certainly is highly irritating.

Again realize that this is a site issue. Saying Unvte, Vote X or Unvote X, Vote Y isn't natural for most people. Heck even most procedural methods of voting in legislatures don't involve unvoting prior to voting.

Why would you say it isn't natural for most people?

Most

people here either began playing here or on the GL where it has been a norm.
It's like learning a language. I learnt a couple because of where I'm brought up, you learnt another because of where you are.
We learnt them all - who is to decide which is natural and which isn't?
You want to play mafia - you "grow up" on scum, you unvote. You "grow up" on FBG, you don't.
However, if I want to communicate with someone, I learn their language. I am in need and I am in minority. I don't expect them to learn mine. I adpat. I conform.
You want to play on scum, surely you can make that effort?
Even then, like many lanugages in a single country, many races, many opinions, opinions defer on scum too. You have a choice of playing with only those mods who are lenient about the rule.
For me, I prolly couldn't care less but it's a norm I "grew up" with and I shall continue with it.

It's only with recent infux of new blood that one sees unvote, vote:x come in. Even then, they make the effort and not whine about it.

This thread was started because some folks do want to force unvote X, vote Y. There is also a general putting down of folks that don't see it that way. I admit I openly mock and deried the concept because to me it is a practice in utter redundency. It is simply making my opinion known, it is not something I expect to change but I hate that aspect of playing here.

This thread was started as a general comment on happenings and to elicit people's opinions - it has served its purpose magnificently.
It's not force on my part to do anything - no one forces anyone to play in my games. When people do - it's the rule. Why? "Because"
And I don't see where there is a

general putting down of folks that don't see it that way.

Please point it out.
For my part, I've said (no, not making this personal, just an example) I respect your opinion and you're welcome to it. I've also said no one forces you to play my games and you don't - so we'll never have that problem, but where has there been "putting down"?

Again - You've voiced your opinion enough times for us to know it. There's no reason to keep on harping about it.
Being non conformist in any culture brings a person flak. You actively go about doing it and then expect to be treated any other way?