Newbie 113 - Game Over

[LoudmouthLee]

FoS: Kain

Normally, a second vote in a gsme this tiny is bad news.. why did you cast that vote like that?

[Stam]

Two votes on me? Already?
I don't think Kain did that on purpose, but I would like to hear what he was thinking, and how he missed that post of EYNH right before his post.
Alos

FOS LML

. A second vote in a newbie game is imperative for the game to get going.

[Stam]

Just a clarification: I don't think Kain's second vote on me was scummy or anything. As I said, without second votes on players nothing will move. What I want Kain to explain is why he thought this is the first vote on me.

[big_kahunia]

Mr. Flay, why so anxious over a second vote by Kain? You placed a second vote too. I don't think Kain's vote was scummy. I think he may need to read the thread a little closer, but that's it.

LML, ask that question to both Kain and Mr. Flay. They both provide reasons. Kain, random. Mr. Flay, voting the first to put on a 2nd vote.

[Mr. Flay]

Mr. Flay, why so anxious over a second vote by Kain? You placed a second vote too. I don't think Kain's vote was scummy. I think he may need to read the thread a little closer, but that's it.

Yes, but Kain's was accidental (or not), whereas I explained

while I was posting it

that it was a second vote, why that might be considered dangerous, and why I didn't think it was particularly dangerous. I'm not yet convinced it was entirely accidental is all.

I'm collecting information at this point, particularly on those I haven't played with before. Stam and LML I have a bit better grasp on. If no more votes show up on EYNH or Kain, that's information. If they do, well, that's information too. Likewise, who comments and who doesn't has an impact as well.

[EnterYourNameHere]

First of all,

Unvote Stam

. I'm pretty sure Kain just didn't see my post for whatever reason; I don't think that makes him scum quite yet. The second vote got the discussion going, but there's no reason to keep two on Stam.

FOS: Taumz

for lurking. He's the only one that hasn't said anything since the game started.

[Kain]

Well yes Mr. Flay it was quite by accident- last night I posted that note around 2;30 am- perhaps not the best time to be posting- but anyway I didn't notice that someone else was voing for Stam until too late. I know that double posting is like major rude so I decided to wait till tommorow knowing that someone would point it out to me that someone else had in fact voted for Stam.After that I then could admit I made a mistake in seeing who got votes without double posting. Now that having been said I find it somewhat scummy that you called me " evil" and perhaps I should vote for you. However for pointing out that the two scum could very well jump on and get me lynched at this point it seems to reason that perhaps you yourself are not mafia- in other words why would a mafia member point out something that helps me? A mafia member would in fact not do that- therefore even though you made scummy comment towards me I refrain presently from casting my vote on you. For now now my random vote is on Stam until i believe someone is scum.

[Stam]

I don't think double posting is rude. If something comes to your mind right after you hit "submit", I think you should say it.

[Mr. Flay]

Sorry Kain, my "evil" comment was based on your name/avatar, and not anything I could relate to the game itself. Probably should have left it out, but I thought I was being clever.

I don't think double-posting is rude; it's more suspicious in my book to wait for someone else to notice and call you on a mistake in your post, than to do it yourself. MafiaScum doesn't generally have a problem with that sort of thing (possibly because the site itself double-posts more than anyone else does ). Then again, I post a *lot*, so I may be biased...

I'd also like to hear from Tamuz. Vote stands for now, although I'm awfully curious why LoudmouthLee decided to FOS (Finger of Suspicion) Kain for his second vote, but not me for mine. He's also been very chummy with me, when I was scum with him in the Greek mafia game on the GL.

[Kain]

You make some good points there Mr. Flay. I agree with you I also would like to hear from Tamuz....being too quiet in my book is a serious sign of mafia or just a sign of him experiencing a stupor of thought as to what to say....we will see eh?

I'm awfully curious why LoudmouthLee decided to FOS (Finger of Suspicion) Kain for his second vote, but not me for mine. He's also been very chummy with me, when I was scum with him in the Greek mafia game on the GL.

Now as for what you have said here- It is my opinion that perhaps you are pointing out LML's FOS on me as to shift any SUSPICION on yourself....or perhaps you are right and LML is acting sucpisicious? it could be taken either way. And what did you intend to mean or point our when you said that he was quite chummy with you?

[Stam]

ok

Unvote: big_k

I don't see any reason to keep my vote on him and

lurker vote: Tamuz

.
I hope this will make him say something.
It's wierd he disappeared like that, especially after being "itching to play".

[Tamuz]

Aye, Aye! I'm here... if you guys want an in-depth explanation, I can tell you everything I'm needing to do, but in short: May= Hell month, 1. Finals 2. State Track 3. Birthdays coming out of my ass.
(and the site was down... but shite happens)

So yeah, I got on after the random votes, but I don't exactly like random voting when everyone else has voted already, 2nd votes get alot of blame cast upon you, as we can all see.... So I didn't post at that time. After that I just didn't check for a day, and you guys said a bit, but here I am.

Suspicions as of now, well... I'd have to agree I look most suspicious at the moment, I am lurking though not by choice.
The 2nd votes don't really look to be too threatening to me, however, in second thought Flay's seemed very rapid. He could have given a request of reasoning or a warning, but instead he decides to vote himself, and somewhat start a bandwagon.

In Summary, I'm here, yada yada
Flay looks most scummy to me at the moment
*yawn*

(Stam, don't try and kill me just because I got you last game )

[Mr. Flay]

I'm awfully curious why LoudmouthLee decided to FOS (Finger of Suspicion) Kain for his second vote, but not me for mine. He's also been very chummy with me, when I was scum with him in the Greek mafia game on the GL.

Now as for what you have said here- It is my opinion that perhaps you are pointing out LML's FOS on me as to shift any SUSPICION on yourself....or perhaps you are right and LML is acting sucpisicious? it could be taken either way. And what did you intend to mean or point our when you said that he was quite chummy with you?

Well, I'm not disputing LML's suspicion on me,

per se

- there *is* a certain amount of suspicion to be weighed on the first '2nd vote'. And if we accept that yours was accidental, as it seems, then that makes my action somwhat suspect. Which is why I'm curious about Lee's motivation for ignoring mine.

As for being "quite chummy", I just got the sense that he's buddying up to me. I've played with him before (as a scum team), on the GL, as I mentioned, and perhaps he's always this cheerful and 'chummy'. I was/am wondering if he was trying to lower my suspicion of him by reminding me of our prior bond.

Still thinking out loud. I'm not entirely encouraged by Tamuz' sudden appearance after someone votes for him; the "I forgot about the thread" excuse is an old line that can't always be true.

Unvote: Kain

for now,

FOS: Tamuz and LoudmouthLee

. But yes, the site has been down in the mornings the last few days, so no new vote yet.

Yes, I'm always this suspicious; read my past newbie games if you don't believe me.

[Tamuz]

I never said I forgot about the thread... I just said
1. I didn't do a random vote, because I didn't want to risk a second vote, as that gets jumped on, so I abstained.
2. After that, I knew the thread existed, I just didn't get on... Not to mention if I did get on, I really wouldn't have much to say. Check Newbie Game 99, I got jumped on there for wanting to use pure based information, rather than hunches. So I refined a bit and decided not to talk when I don't have pure information to say, so I didn't really say anything.

(If you want to be thorough in your research I didn't post much in my Greek Uproar thread either--last poast was the 14th) So that supports myself in my lack of ability to get on. And think about, that absence was definately not helpful for me, going away casts suspicion on myself, which is a real bad thing, so there really is no reason to assume I was lurking. As many times as the "I couldn't get on" is wrong, it is also right.




And another note... if anyone is thinking I'm being overly-defensive, that too is my style *yawn*

Digest & Accuse, or move on

[Kain]

Tamuz I feel you are innocent as snow- either that or scummy/lurkish. I'm not sure which. Mr. Flay I'm very amused by the fact you quoted me quoting you but I think it possibly suspicious of you to volunteer the information that he is acting chummy with you and that perhaps he is using it to try and lower your suspicion of him. The reason I find this possibly scummy is because it seems that you yourself may be trying to shift any focus on him and make yourself appear innocent. A FOS on you but no vote as of yet for what you have said is either the epitome of innocence as it seems you are claiming or a sign of scumminess.

[Mr. Flay]

Stam, it looks like you've come a long way since the last game we were in together. Your points seem to be well-reasoned and insightful.

LoudmouthLee, any particular reason you don't want us to get to a 2nd vote on anyone just yet? Right now, I'm probably most suspicious of yourself and Tamuz. Kain seems to just be a newbie with a lot of thoughts, as does EnterYourNameHere...

big_kahunia, anything else I can add? You had some questions about my vote...

[EnterYourNameHere]

Tamuz I feel you are innocent as snow- either that or scummy/lurkish. I'm not sure which.

Well, of course he's one or the other. Indecisive statements will get you nowhere. You also make the same kind of comment in post 34 about Flay's opinion of LML's FOS on you. Posting stuff like this does nothing to advance discussion, but it does cause me to

FOS: Kain

, and I am extremely close to voting him.

Mr. Flay I'm very amused by the fact you quoted me quoting you but I think it possibly suspicious of you to volunteer the information that he is acting chummy with you and that perhaps he is using it to try and lower your suspicion of him. The reason I find this possibly scummy is because it seems that you yourself may be trying to shift any focus on him and make yourself appear innocent. A FOS on you but no vote as of yet for what you have said is either the epitome of innocence as it seems you are claiming or a sign of scumminess.

Note a similar indecisive comment at the end, reinforcing my point. But I want to address Flay: do note that you're referencing a game in which you and Lee were SCUM PARTNERS. It is natural for scum partners to have some sort of "chumminess" with each other. As such, unless you are claiming that you and Lee are partners, which I highly doubt you are, I would not consider this particular piece of evidence. I haven't been here long enough to know, but it seems that you are a well-respected veteran, and, as I know from the chat room I play in, that newbies and vets alike tend to "be chummy" with the other veterans. I'd say that Lee "being chummy" with you is just an example of this, not Lee being a scum.

[Stam]

Stam, it looks like you've come a long way since the last game we were in together. Your points seem to be well-reasoned and insightful.

Wow, first Pheobus and now you!
Thanks. I am really flattered
Although after my performance at Newbie 108 the only way to go is up
I learned a lot on that game about what I

shouldn't

do and being lynched on day one taught me a big lesson.

Tamuz, I keep my vote on you for now, mainly because I still suspect you, but also because if are a townie, a similar lesson might be good for you.

Personally, I have no problem with the way you behaved at the beginning of Newbie 99. (Well, except for those long essays. You should be considerate of people coming as replacement on the end of day 2...) If you want to use pure logic, do it, but share your logic with us, don't hide. Not really saying anything at all unless you have pure information, as a strategy, is much much worse. Mainly because it is very convenient for a scum to say (s)he is doing that and keep low profile.

EYNH, I agree that using tautologies is scummy, but when newbies do it it's hard to tell.

LML, just a reminder, my FOS on you still holds You have much to explain to me and to others.

[LoudmouthLee]

Sorry I havent been around. Been very busy lately.

I'm not quite sure of the "charges" against me. Was there someone else with 2 votes at that time? If so, I just missed it, and I apologize. Otherwise, I just haven't been around too much lately. I hope that's not why I have a zillion FOSes

[big_kahunia]

It is my opinion that perhaps you are pointing out LML's FOS on me as to shift any SUSPICION on yourself....or perhaps you are right and LML is acting sucpisicious?

Or how about both are suspicious.

Tamuz I feel you are innocent as snow- either that or scummy/lurkish.

Let’s just not “rule” out anyone. We all can be fooled. As far as I’m concerned, any of you six could be scum. Of course, each of you could say the same thing. But let’s not get definitive. No one is confirmed day 1. Doctor protectee w/ no kill or cop investigations give the only true confirmations.
So I agree w/ EYNH’s views on this one.

LML, I fosed you before you fosed Kain for placing a second vote when Mr. Flay did the same thing and you didn’t fosed him too. Mr. Flay brought up stuff about your playing style w/ being “chummy” as scum.

big_kahunia, anything else I can add? You had some questions about my vote...

You answered my question in post 29.

Regarding “chumminess”, scum usually try to avoid building cases against their partners. The mafia try to work together, whether directly or indirectly, to move suspicion against others. I think if players are in good spirits with each other, being chummy, they could just like each other or be scum as is their playing style. But I think it mainly depends on the player’s style. Some are more business-like while others are clowns. So.. sometimes, it matters and other times not.

[Tamuz]

Tamuz, I keep my vote on you for now, mainly because I still suspect you, but also because if are a townie, a similar lesson might be good for you.

Personally, I have no problem with the way you behaved at the beginning of Newbie 99. (Well, except for those long essays. You should be considerate of people coming as replacement on the end of day 2...) If you want to use pure logic, do it, but share your logic with us, don't hide. Not really saying anything at all unless you have pure information, as a strategy, is much much worse. Mainly because it is very convenient for a scum to say (s)he is doing that and keep low profile.

Psh, essays, you en't seen nothing yet

My problem, with just making a post saying "Although I feel XYZ seems guilty, I have no proof of why he/she is" (which would be a pure logic post at this moment, since I am getting some vibes, but I have no tripping to look into... is that I'm more or less non-commital as a person. If I spout out that I don't have evidence, just feelings I can be manipulated much more easily.
I do agree, though, that not saying anything is bad... we need to talk so that people can trip up, which of course supports your well known comment that lurking is a good thing for mafia, assuming they can pull it off.

Would you rather I do something like LML and say "I'm busy... 2 votes, Don't FOS me for it"?


Moving on from the topic of my previous inactivity, since I think that horse is dead--or not drinking water-- or something.

Kain... Of course I'm either innocent or guilty, yeah... we all kind of are. Well, not kind of we *are* one or the other, but on day one, without a night the only person who knows (ignoring a mason character, and the mafia knowing each other) if you are innocent or guilty is yourself.

Yeah.... I'm not really moving anywhere, can't pull much that hasn't been at least mentioned already, second votes.... defense of others (focus shifting). So I'm going to stop babbling and sleep on this, or other stuff

[Mr. Flay]

Having a hard time reading this game overall. Everyone seems to be hedging their bets. Kain, then big_k both mention the "you're either for us or against us" tautology, and while I agree with EYNH's interpretation of it, he seems to be waiting to see if anyone else will vote first.

LML, I posted a second vote on Kain just an hour before you FOSed Kain for doing the same thing, that's the "other" second vote people are talking about.

I'm seeing some interesting pairing-gaps in the posts so far:
* LML and Tamuz have NO direct interactions yet. However, since both have been semi-lurking, that's not entirely surprising.
* EYNH and LML also don't have any suspicions/thoughts about each other, which is a little more surprising.
* Big_kahunia suspects almost everyone, which I haven't made up my mind about. Could be careful play, could be waiting for a bandwagon.
* Kain waffles on everything, as does Tamuz to a degree.
* A lot of suspicion has been directed my way, Tamuz's, and Kain's.

Mod

, can we get a vote count as it stands now? I'm leaning back toward EYNH for his comments about wanting to vote for Kain, who everyone seemed to jump on after I put a second vote on him.

[Mr. Flay]

I want to address Flay: do note that you're referencing a game in which you and Lee were SCUM PARTNERS. It is natural for scum partners to have some sort of "chumminess" with each other. As such, unless you are claiming that you and Lee are partners, which I highly doubt you are, I would not consider this particular piece of evidence. I haven't been here long enough to know, but it seems that you are a well-respected veteran, and, as I know from the chat room I play in, that newbies and vets alike tend to "be chummy" with the other veterans. I'd say that Lee "being chummy" with you is just an example of this, not Lee being a scum.

I should address this before I go: I was scum in six of my first seevn games on MafiaScum & the GL, so a lot of the games I reference will be ones where I was scum. Despite the odds, probability says that has

nothing

to do with whether I'm scum in this game, of course.

What I was/am trying to say about Lee is that he's being chummy here where we're not partners, and I'm not sure if he's just naturally that way (signs point to yes), or crafting a good impression. Since that was the only game I've played with him so far, I may have a biased opinion of Lee as scummy. But I *do* find your defense of another player on Day One very edifying... 8)

[LoudmouthLee]

Everyone has a biased opinion of me as scummy. It's part of my persona You love me for it, Flay.

I just reread the thread, and I apologize for missing the double vote earlier. I was not paying much attention. I'm a good natured guy, and I always remember that this is still a game.

As for scumminess and the such, I'm going to give minor (note the term, minor)

FoS: Flay and Stam

You both seem to be on the FoS train right now. IMHO, it seems taht you guys have nearly FOSed everyone so far, so, as of right now, my vote is staying on Flay.

It seems to be rather funny, Flay, because of this...

LoudmouthLee, any particular reason you don't want us to get to a 2nd vote on anyone just yet? Right now, I'm probably most suspicious of yourself and Tamuz. Kain seems to just be a newbie with a lot of thoughts, as does EnterYourNameHere...

I just feel that it is very difficult, for a game such as a newbie game, to be piling on votes is a bad idea. More discussion, less second voting.

As for missing on of the double voters... there isn't much I can say. But, let's not forget Occam's razor, people...

The simplest answer is the best. I missed it with a quick skim of random votes. However, my vote was ALREADY on Flay, and that would be a competent reason on why it didnt quite matter whether I made notice to flay or not.

I hope this answers many questions.

[LoudmouthLee]

Everyone has a biased opinion of me as scummy. It's part of my persona You love me for it, Flay.

I just reread the thread, and I apologize for missing the double vote earlier. I was not paying much attention. I'm a good natured guy, and I always remember that this is still a game.

As for scumminess and the such, I'm going to give minor (note the term, minor)

FoS: Flay and Stam

You both seem to be on the FoS train right now. IMHO, it seems taht you guys have nearly FOSed everyone so far, so, as of right now, my vote is staying on Flay.

It seems to be rather funny, Flay, because of this...

LoudmouthLee, any particular reason you don't want us to get to a 2nd vote on anyone just yet? Right now, I'm probably most suspicious of yourself and Tamuz. Kain seems to just be a newbie with a lot of thoughts, as does EnterYourNameHere...

I just feel that it is very difficult, for a game such as a newbie game, to be piling on votes is a bad idea. More discussion, less second voting.

As for missing on of the double voters... there isn't much I can say. But, let's not forget Occam's razor, people...

The simplest answer is the best. I missed it with a quick skim of random votes. However, my vote was ALREADY on Flay, and that would be a competent reason on why it didnt quite matter whether I made notice to flay or not.

I hope this answers many questions.