Self-voting

[Mr Stoofer]

What's the general feeling about voting for oneself? I have seen a number of players (generally vanilla townies) do it out of frustration when a bandwagon begins to form on them.

I think it's out of order. If you don't want to play, you should ask to be replaced. What does everyone else think?

[Locus Cosecant]

It's useful in the mafia-SK-towniex2 endgame, as well as when you're confirmed scum and you want the day over before they can ferret out your scumbuddies.

I do think everyone should play to win, but 'win' is not the same as 'survive' in mafia.

[Iammars]

I did it in Dodecamafia, when I knew there was no hope in getting the bandwagon reversed on me, and I just wanted top get the game going.

[MeMe]

I think it

can

be strategic. Examples: if the lynch is between yourself and someone you believe to be a stronger role...or if you're scum who's obviously going to be lynched and want to minimize the information gathering of the town.

But I've never personally done it and have put people on my "never to play with again" for doing so without an obviously good reason. I agree with you, Stoofer -- if one truly feels as though (s)he can't continue in a game, ask for a replacement. But even

that

shouldn't be taken lightly as it's a stress on the mod and the others (since part of mafia is playing/reading the particular players).

[Mr Stoofer]

I'd love to see your "never to play again" list, with reasons.

(I've surely not done enough to get on it yet, have I? )

[Drummer]

I personally enjoy starting off chat mafia games with a self-vote.

[Maximus]

I've done it before, and I think sometimes it makes some people think. It worked once, when I was scum, and I self-voted, but then people felt bad and unvoted for me, and let me live that day. I played that game elsewhere, I think SK got me that night but it worked as far as gaining pity from town.

But sometimes, I do it out of frustration when I have no hope and the town isn't lynching someone more suspicious than me.

[LoudmouthLee]

The

only

person I have ever been involved in a game with and had this problem, but found everything acceptable was Uraj.

Uraj was unlynchable. We bandwagoned him, said unlynchable... and we didn't quite believe him. So, he put the final vote on himself to prove it.

It was, actually, a play that saved the town.

[Mr. Flay]

I think I did this in Newbie 25, to protect the other scum from being "read" too much. Mostly though, I see it as a sign of frustration. I'm personally more inclined to think of it along the lines of what Maximus alluded to: if I was scum, the best way to make the town believe me would be to vote for myself, therefore I can't believe it by default when it's done...

I don't think it should be disallowed. It has some (small) strategic value, and beats hell of replacements IMO...I might suggest that mods require a

Confirm Vote: self

to avoid the frustration-vote becoming deadly to a game.

The other trend I've seen is mafia in newbie games night-killing themselves when they get in an unwinnable situation (Night 2, one mafia dead, cop and doc still alive, for example). I'm not sure how I feel about that either, since it deprives the town of a truly satisfying lynch, but it has its uses, too...

[Mr. Flay]

But to answer the original question, I think a pro-town player voting for themself is almost never a good idea, and I think it speaks to the "frustration" people have at being a "plain vanilla townie". But that's a whole different topic of discussion...

[Mgm]

Out of frustration --> no
I like the tactical ways self-votes have been used in (I modded the game LML talked about).

I've can't remember doing it myself though.

[CaptainBlicero]

If you don't want to play, you should ask to be replaced.

I agree with you, Stoofer -- if one truly feels as though (s)he can't continue in a game, ask for a replacement.

Well, I'm going to be the jerk and disagree with you both here. Finding a replacement can be an awful chore -- few players want to step into a role that's getting bandwagoned, and it's a bad idea to hold up an entire game to cater to one player's playground mentality.

No, players who vote themselves out of frustration should simply be lynched. If I had my way, they would have to write 1000-word essays on why self-voting is bad play* before they could sign up for new games. At the very least, they should read through some completed games and observe how good players deal with bandwagons (HINT: they don't do it by voting for themselves).

Bottom line: This is Mafia. You should EXPECT to be bandwagoned. You NEED to be prepared to deal with it -- especially if you are just a helpless townie. Taking your ball and going home will not gain you respect, will not help your team, and will not make you a better player.

*Barring those rare, rare occasions that MeMe and others have already mentioned.

[MeMe]

You apparently missed the sentence immediately following the one you quoted.

But even

that

shouldn't be taken lightly as it's a stress on the mod and the others (since part of mafia is playing/reading the particular players).

Generally, I agree with you, CB...but I know (because I've witnessed them) that there are genuine instances of personality clash that make it the mature choice to step out.

[Yosarian2]

But to answer the original question, I think a pro-town player voting for themself is almost never a good idea, and I think it speaks to the "frustration" people have at being a "plain vanilla townie". But that's a whole different topic of discussion...

Unless it's a meta-game decision, like "if I only vote for myself when I'm mafia, it's a tip-off..."

Seriously, though, mostly it is done out of frustration, and that's not really good for the game, sure. I can understand people wanting to just conceed once they know they've lost, but mafia is not chess, there's a much greater human factor involved, and there's always a chance that people will change their minds.

[mathcam]

Whoa! CB's back!

I like Flay's confirm self-vote idea...I might think about implementing it in the future.

Cam

[Dasquian]

I agree with most of you guys that it's generally out of order, though I did just do it myself in a recent game so let me share that viewpoint too Generally, I think it's trite to throw a tantrum and hasten your own demise because you're Bored Now that you're being strung up. Commitment to the game should go right up to the final minute, IMO, and voting yourself is generally equivalent to upending a board-game you've just been eliminated from - just because you're out, don't take it out on everyone else.

Anyway, in a game that literally finished a few hours ago, I was a SK in a four person (all townies) end-game. Due to time constraints on two of the other players, and the third being a cop claiming to have investigated me (ie, it was me or her), the day went on... and on... and on. After three weeks of indecision, and another game ready to go, but being held up because of that one, I was feeling a bit edgy and stated on the thread that if something didn't happen soon, I'd place a vote on myself (third and final, joining the cop's and one of the townie's) to end the monotony.

Understandably, I don't think the mod was too happy about this and disallowed self-voting - at which point I realised that although I thought I was doing everyone a favour by ending a game that had been grinding to a standstill and allowing another 17 or so players to start their game, these were all metagame reasons and weren't in any way fair on the game at hand or the people who'd died in it thus far.

That kicked the game into life anyway and the game came to a swiftish conclusion, but I thought I'd share the anecdote as another example of when you might be tempted to self-vote (not that it's a very likely situation to occur). I'm glad I didn't make good my threat of self-voting though, I think it would've made a very disappointing end to the game.


In general, I allow self-votes because of the tactical reasons others have pointed out.

[Norinel]

As an example of the really weird degree of strategic self-voting, I did it once, in Designer Mafia. Basically, I was about to be lynched anyway but someone I thought was scum claimed that my vote would count double, so I cast the second-to-last vote for myself to prove the someone was lying.

[Mr Stoofer]

Commitment to the game should go right up to the final minute, IMO, and voting yourself is generally equivalent to upending a board-game you've just been eliminated from - just because you're out, don't take it out on everyone else

That was my feeling, but I am very interested in the large number of arguably valid reasons for self-voting that have been mentioned.

As a player, I would like to see the mod's policy on self-voting (whatever it is) posted in the rules on the first page.

[SpeedyKQ]

We almost reached a situation in NYPD mafia where I would have voted for myself. It would have been an endgame with

1 player from scum team A
1 player from scum team B
1 confirmed innocent
and me, a townie, but not confirmed as innocent

It was an open setup, and all players knew that there were exactly two scum left, one from each team. In this situation I'd have wanted to be lynched so the two scum would know who each other were, and would hopefully feel compelled to kill each other on the final night, yielding a town win.

Interesting, huh?

[Yosarian2]

We almost reached a situation in NYPD mafia where I would have voted for myself. It would have been an endgame with

1 player from scum team A
1 player from scum team B
1 confirmed innocent
and me, a townie, but not confirmed as innocent

It was an open setup, and all players knew that there were exactly two scum left, one from each team. In this situation I'd have wanted to be lynched so the two scum would know who each other were, and would hopefully feel compelled to kill each other on the final night, yielding a town win.

Interesting, huh?

Very interesting, yes....
Of course, the mafia people could have just both targeted the last townie that night, killed him, then killed each other when only the two of them were left, leading to a mafia tie instead of a town win, but that would require them to trust each other, and whichever one backstabbed the other would win...

Heh...anyway, sounds like a good pro-town stratagy at that point.

[TBuG]

I think I voted for myself in Buffy mafia. I was Quentin Travers, and I was neutral. I wanted to help the town, but they started voting for me, so I claimed what I was. I had already won because I injected Buffy with something. Nobody believed my claim, so I said, hey, I've already won, if you don't believe me, then too bad. I voted for myself and died. By then, KE had replaced me, but he barely posted so it was like nothing happened.




The mafia won along with me.

[Mr Stoofer]

<<edited by MeMe>>

[Cadmium]

There are much worse things than voting oneself, one of them being talking about ongoing games in threads other than the intended ones!

[Mr. Flay]

I'd almost suggest locking this thread until the game's over, just so it doesn't interrupt Mini 174.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm sorry about mentioning Mini 174.

I was just trying continue the "academic" discussion that was going on here and I didn't think about the effect it might have on that game. Me bad.