Player Slot and Game Census

[Mr. Flay]

I'm just not buying that the Micro Queue is choking off the Large Theme Queue, modwise. The audiences are SO DIFFERENT.

We just went through a glut of newly-qualified Large Theme mods after the backlog in MN/Open cleared last year. That might have spiked the number of moderators for a bit... the datapoint for that is to look at, overall, how fast are Large Themes starting/filling. Not a snapshot of playerslots.

[zoraster]

i was going off of what LF said, which is that there is no Large Theme queue to speak of and those games are filling fast when they do go up.

Generally speaking, clearing a glut of MN/Open mods won't directly make more Large Theme mods as they need at least another game experience.

[Oversoul]

I remember really large games were having a hard time filling for a while.

I stand by my thoughts that less LARGE games and more variety of large themes will bring back players.

It was a lot of players grouped into a couple of games that required a lot of attention versus multiple sub21 player games which I think are easier to get a grasp on.

[TheButtonmen]

Might I interest you in one of my old pet causes Zor? Hoops brought it to the back of the house, at the time Kinetic and hascow had issues with it but they're both gone now so we have a much better chance of getting it approved!

I was talking to a couple of people in scumchat (CES and TBM) and we were discussing the concept of altered modding requirements with an emphasis on time on site and games completed as a player, as opposed to previous games modded. The benefit of using a system structured in this manner is to minimise the amount of "pointless modding" of mods being forced through the Open/Mini Normal channels when they really don't want to.

Now, running a theme game is obviously a lot more difficult than an Open/Normal and a lot more depends on you as the game designer, as you aren't given a pre-approved setup and a review panel to help you out, and this should be taken into consideration when setting limits. But our general agreement was that running an Open Game or a Mini Normal isn't going to improve your credentials when trying to make a good Mini Theme, and the best learning comes from time spent playing in games.

What I'd propose as requirements:

Open Game - 3 Months on site, 3 games completed as player
Mini Normal - 3 Months on site, 3 games completed as player
Large Normal - 6 Months on site, 5 games completed as player
Mini Theme - 9 Months on site, 8 games completed as player
Large Theme - 1 year on site, 10 games completed as player, 1 game completed as mod

1 year on site - may now be in two separate modding queues (if otherwise qualified)

~~

The benefits should be twofold: Mods will now have the option to wait it out if they really want to run a theme and not be forced to run an Open they don't want to run. A greater emphasis on games completed may bump up the playing numbers a little. Both of these occurrences should minimise the overall wait times of the queues, and I'm hopeful will produce better games for the players.

The basic functions of modding (sending out role PM's, doing vote counts, finding replacements) don't change from queue to queue. The only variable in modding is occasionally advanced role resolution or mechanic stuff that takes more time, but these are largely a facet of game design which happens before the game is modded. That is the biggest difference - game designing. I don't think the actual act of modding an Open Game does much for that mod other than getting better at the basics of modding. The real learning comes from reviewing games, playing games and reading more games - players get a natural feel for balance/game design based on what they've seen and played in. I would rather have a Mini Theme mod with 8+ completed games as a player and 9 months onsite than one with 4 games and 6 months onsite but has modded an Open. I think it's a more accurate measure of a person's experience and capabilities with mafia.

the primary complaints that mods receive is on game design, which is a facet that isn't improved by running an Open Game. It's rare that first time Open and Mini Normal mods make game-changing modding errors, and if they do, the type of game they're running usually isn't the reason for error. Mod errors are sending the wrong role info, modkilling a player unjustly, leaking setup info accidentally or making an error with role resolution. The last one is the only sticking point to justify Mini Themes being slightly harder to mod - again, I stress the errors are typically made during the design, in which case, requiring mods to run Opens and Mini Normals prior to Themes or Large games isn't justified.

Cow, I don't think Mini Themes or Large Normals are more important than Open or Mini Normal games - a mod making a mistake in any game is bad. Do you believe the actual physical task of modding (for first time mods) would be prone to more errors in Mini Theme games than a Mini Normal? If so, significantly? Because I get the impression the difference would be trivial.

Of course Themes are a lot harder to design, which is why more experience onsite and in games should be required to run one, but I'm saying that's where the real possibility for error lies. Modding an Open Game prior does nothing but make it less likely a mod will make a modding mistake in their next game, and I don't think a modded game should be a prerequisite for Large Normals/Mini Themes when it isn't required for Mini Normals/Opens (presuming it's roughly equally easy to run any of those four types of games).

[Oversoul]

Who is taking over Hascow's spot?

[zoraster]

hmmm. I think I need to sleep on that one (mostly because I'm exhausted), but I don't immediately hate it. How would you handle micros in that both from the experience giving (in terms of large themes) and modding?

[Oversoul]

I'd actually like that system. Do we have any requirement now allowing mods to be in two queues simultaneously?

[zoraster]

For what it's worth, I'd definitely alter the two games at once thing to include requirements for having modded games. There's no reason you should be able to mod two games without having proven you can mod at least one, even if you've established yourself as a respectable, responsible player.

Also, I don't know if it's worth the extra effort, but I'd start tolling the time from the start of a player's first game rather than when they joined the site.

[Mehdi2277]

I think the rule is you can be in one mini queue and one large queue at the same time if you have two games modding experience (or one micro + one mini/one micro + one large). 3 games at the same time is allowable with 5 games modding experience and I think mith permission.

And zor how often does someone join the site and not sign up for a game the same or next day?

[Vi]

Now, running a theme game is obviously a lot more difficult than an Open/Normal and a lot more depends on you as the game designer, as you aren't given a pre-approved setup and a review panel to help you out, and this should be taken into consideration when setting limits. But our general agreement was that running an Open Game or a Mini Normal isn't going to improve your credentials when trying to make a good Mini Theme, and the best learning comes from time spent playing in games.

I don't think a modded game should be a prerequisite for Large Normals/Mini Themes when it isn't required for Mini Normals/Opens (presuming it's roughly equally easy to run any of those four types of games).

From a design perspective I don't really agree with either of these.

And zor how often does someone join the site and not sign up for a game the same or next day?

*does otter imitation* It's not too uncommon. Also, alts, etc.

[zoraster]

it happens occasionally.

Thinking about it, here's what I'd say:

the system in general is fine, but I'd make each more onerous (more time and more games played) BUT I'd put it as a parallel way to qualify to moderate a game.

In other words, you can EITHER qualify to moderate a game by the current standard OR you can qualify by the proposed one.

[TheButtonmen]

And zor how often does someone join the site and not sign up for a game the same or next day?

Surprisingly often but it would be a real hassle to track.

[zoraster]

And zor how often does someone join the site and not sign up for a game the same or next day?

Surprisingly often but it would be a real hassle to track.

yeah, i think you're probably right.

[zoraster]

*does otter imitation* It's not too uncommon.

prescient.

[TheButtonmen]

From a design perspective I don't really agree with either of these.

Can you expand on this? Which part of the quote are you disagreeing with and why?

[Vi]

prescient.

:vi:

Can you expand on this? Which part of the quote are you disagreeing with and why?

I don't agree that playing onsite, by itself, will give you the ability to mod a good half-complex game - that actually takes experience running a game, and doing something that's at least

kind of

easy will set you on your way there. In addition, it probably won't stop people from bringing their offsite everyone's-a-broken-power-role games here.

[zoraster]

i think it probably will if they've been here for a long time and played in a sufficient number of games. That said, we have more tools in place for first time mods right now that we wouldn't have in that scenario.

[TheButtonmen]

prescient.

:vi:

Can you expand on this? Which part of the quote are you disagreeing with and why?

I don't agree that playing onsite, by itself, will give you the ability to mod a good half-complex game - that actually takes experience running a game, and doing something that's at least

kind of

easy will set you on your way there. In addition, it probably won't stop people from bringing their offsite everyone's-a-broken-power-role games here.

In your opinion why is it harder to mod a theme then a normal? I've modded 15 games on MS across pretty much all the queue's and I can honestly say that I've never noticed a difference in difficulty.

[zoraster]

normals constrain you. it's pretty hard to make an overly complicated setup in a normal.

[TheButtonmen]

How does modding an open help you improve your setup design skills?

[zoraster]

it doesn't.

[Oversoul]

I can't remember what my normal review was like but I think they mostly helped me with wordings/phrases in role PMs and my rules.

I'm not educated on this subject at all, but do you guys try to teach others how to correctly balance? Or do you act as a sounding board in giving suggestions of what will help balance? Are you explaining why or just giving suggestions?

[Tierce]

I discussed this with Hoopla a while back, and my conclusion is that time-based 'experience' requirements can be a good thing. The specific timeline is one I agree with.

There are at least two (tangential, but relevant) things that could smooth this process:

• Mandatory reviews for all games. It doesn't matter if it's a Theme; get it reviewed by someone who is doing more than putting a stamp on it. Yes, the flavor might be important on a game level, but we have to trust that sometimes reviewers won't be familiar with the flavor and still get the thing reviewed. Having non-flavor-familiar reviewers who might let flavor-based game-breaking pass unnoticed is still better than having no reviewers at all;
  
• Move all Small-sized setups from the Open queue to the Micro queue. If the requirements change, it makes no sense to run Vengefuls as part of the Open queue. The Open queue should be somewhat redefined, as there are Open games being run in all or almost regular queues. (Micros, Mini Themes and Large Normals come to mind--I've played at least one Open game in each of those forums).

People signing up for modding larger games really need to have common sense, and that is where the listmods can come in. Moderating a Large Theme when you have had no experience at all may be a rather bad idea, and that may be where our pool of newbie mods comes in handy--I

do

like the fact that newbie mods are held to a specific set of setups in the Open queue to meet demand and cycle through them. Similar restriction systems in other Queues (like the Small Opens in the Micro queue) might be a good idea, especially if we keep to 'number of modded games' experience or a hybrid of time/number of modded games.

[N]

Open Game - 3 Months on site, 3 games completed as player
Mini Normal - 3 Months on site, 3 games completed as player
Large Normal - 6 Months on site, 5 games completed as player
Mini Theme - 9 Months on site, 8 games completed as player
Large Theme - 1 year on site, 10 games completed as player, 1 game completed as mod

I think the requirement should be more along the lines of playing games actually run in that queue. Like, if you've only ever played newbies and theme games, you probably won't have a good idea of what normal roles are.

Another idea could be that you've played a certain amount of time in games - e.g., playing one game through to lylo should be worth more than being the day 1 lynch several times. I know this would be hard to track, but that should be the players' responsibility (it's not hard to go "the game started on the 11th of November and I was killed on 3rd of December, so I was in the game for 22 days").

[Mehdi2277]

I wouldn't add length alive as a way to get experience. Making every player a part survivor if they want to mod quicker isn't a good idea (that and I'd say being night killed early is better then being lynched in lylo).