Double-Dip Mafia, Game Over

[Empking]

I think that's a question you should be answering.

Because I'm town and was scumhunting. I know the answer, you seem to have an alternative explaination.

[Amrun]

All scum want their reads to look genuine.

But honestly, that is my biggest sticking point with you.

[Amrun]

Picking out some quotes from kunkstar's ISO that stood out to me. Highlighting players in green that are confirmed, for reference, and Empking and Crazy in bright blue. Sorry, walls ahoy!

...

Ran

and

Amrun

are town. Amrun is Amrun. I like Ran's content so far.

Tons of vote changes from

Empking

seems sketch. Count of 6 separate players without any logical explanation for any of the changes.

In this post, kunk calls a bunch of people town that are town, then makes a lameduck attack on Empking but DOES NOT VOTE for him. No votes out yet.

+scum Empking

I think it's very weird that he hasn't voted at all. Not scummy-weird, just 'why would you sign up for this game and then not exercise your right to vote?'-weird. His activity so far is wretched, I think we're in a 'shape up or ship out' scenario here.

I also think you made a very good point about his "Whatsup with the smalls wagon? Legit or just randomwagongo?" post that he has pointedly failed to address. And I don't like the way he attacks Empking for making tons of unexplained vote changes, but says nothing about Hiraki doing the same.

Hiraki's

vote changes were nowhere near the same level as

Empking

. Like I said

Empking

managed to vote 6 separate players without any reason for vote changes. Notably though

Empking

has moved away from this style in recent posts.

To be honest, my smalls comment was legitimate interest in whether people were serious or not considering we were partly in RVS since people had random votes and I couldn't find anything that explained a legit version of the wagon. If anything that comment leaned more to distrust of the large wagon rather than attempting to join it.

Thoughts on Image, WLC, Elli, and Pom?

Pom

: Not particularly thrilled here, the fact that she took an RVS vote and made it serious with only the word "scummmmmy." is sketch. The fact that she mentions two posts later that she has no one better to vote is sad too.

Vote: Pomegranate.

Elli's

play here reminds me of his play when he seems disinterested, and likely town.

WLC:

Tunnelling on

Amrun

ineffectively here, not much else. Most of his Amrun stuff is based on early content such as a p-edit on like page 2? Picks on her not providing reasoning when there clearly have been worse culprits of that.

I am uncertain on

imaginality

. Early on I had a weird gut feeling about him, but have been trying to largely ignore it due to its lack of grounding in actual content.

RedCoyote

joins my list of townreads.

Vote:

Crazy

.

His insistence on tearing down Ellibereth based solely on the Furry question is really meh to me especially considering that

I

supported

Elli

in it and he never called

me

out along with

Elli

.

Question to

Hiraki

wagoners: To what extent is his early apparent mixup with scumreads a part of the reason you are voting Hiraki?

This post has a lot of things. Most importantly, it has scumpoints for both Empking and Crazy. Despite talking about Empking being scummy a lot, previously, when kunkstar votes, he chooses to place his votes elsewhere, on a slot he was specifically asked to give a read on and a new slot he'd never talked about before. This is definitely +scum for Empking.

HOWEVER, kunkstar's actual line of reasoning towards Empking reads more like scum going for a mislynch than his line of reasoning on Crazy. This push on Crazy for attacking Elli for something that kunkstar also vocally supported reads a bit like coaching - and since kunkstar is scum, Crazy going for Elli and not kunkstar is +scum for Crazy.

Unvote; Vote:Hiraki.

Tomorrow is Crazy though.

This also is +scum Crazy.

I did the same thing.
and smalls is really really town.
Now I think you're town to for whatever reason.
Show me why please?

So you are saying that you see

WLC

as town but nothing to show for it? Tis pretty sketch if you ask me, especially in concert with the last sentence. This will be important when we see

WLC

's flip. I actually think it'll reflect more scummily on

Elli

if

WLC

is a mislynch.

@

Empking

: WTF is that

RC

vote? Absolutely no precedent in your ISO.

Vote:

Pom

; Vote:

Crazy

.

Still need to reflect on interactions between flipped players and these two, but they are still my stronger scumreads.

On the other hand, he actually DOES go for Crazy the next day, but continues to point out scummy things about Empking without ever voting for him. +scum Empking

Like I said, empking has no precedent or reasoning for voting RC and on day 2 he should have at least something to say by now. Plus lulzvote on a townread of mine doesnt sit well with me.

Yeah and Amrun was null on RC the day before. Her being a town read is no excuse.

What? I meant that RC was a townread from Day 1. So Empking voting RC with NO reasoning or prior mention of RC being scummy is bad compared to Amrun being null on RC then seeing a flip and thinking that RC's position on a mislynchwagon was bad (and stating so, which is giving a reason for her vote on RC), then voting RC. That's a demonstrable logical path to a vote on RC.

While this doesn't feel like a bus, kunkstar never votes Empking, goes on to hammer and die in ignominy.

Ugh.

More to come.

[Amrun]

@ Ran

Scum
Wey
LK

Null:Kunkstar, Elli, Imag

Empking, how do you feel about Pom, Kunk, and Imag?

Pom is scummy but the other two are null.

Empking's ISO:

Nothing special except actively asserting null reads on kunkstar and imaginality several times with no explanation or no real need. Totally avoids kunkstar issue.

[Amrun]

Also, kunkstar, can you explain why me voting Imaginality but not you would be indicative of me being scum? I mean, I could understand scum might be hypocritical in regards to their own scum-partners, but how is me being hypocritical in favor of you scummy from

your own

perspective,

since you should know yourself to be town

.

Still reads like a bus, especially the bolded, which is particularly WTF in hindsight.

Yikes at WLC's ISO - first time I looked at it. As I see it, his current two votes are on:

-

Kunkstar for not voting in his first post.

-Amrun for a slew of reasons that aren't really scummy at all.

...

I'd really like him to come here and explain how any of his points against Amrun are actually scummy, as well as explain why his other vote is still on kunkstar for reasons that expired a long time ago.

VOTE: WLC

Technically a chainsaw, but to be TOTALLY fair, I basically got WLC lynched because he was scum as fuck (or so I thought). So I can, of course, see how a townie could come to the conclusion that WLC is scum for his shitvotes. But the particular mentions of kunkstar, especially in the latter part, are not necessary and seem careful.

Ranmaru, when Fate suggested hammering DH without a claim, all you did was say "Uh, no, we should always make sure to get a claim before we lynch somebody." In this game, on the other hand, you're going "OMG KUNKSTAR IS SCUM DIE DIE DIE." Why the difference?

Not that I excuse Kunkstar's actions, but that's for post-game discussion crap. It's horrible play, but I don't think his hammering was necessarily a scum-tell. If anything, it's a slight

town

-tell, since it drew unnecessary focus towards him.

And no, this isn't WIFOM, since there is no way that Kunkstar could imagine that I'd say that.

This part is obvious, especially the bolded. The bolded is actually REALLY giving me pause.

Lol, I get that all the time. Every time I blast someone for making a stupid argument against X, then "OMG, Crazy must be X's partner!" Seriously, this isn't even the first time that happened in

this game

. Wasn't I supposed to be Hiraki's partner, too?

My attention here really isn't toward defending Kunkstar, though - there are actually many worse people to lynch (like the horrible Pom wagon, but I'll get to that). My issue is that you look like scum setting up an easy lynch for tomorrow. Kunkstar

is

an easy lynch, and if I was scum, you can bet I'd be down his throat like crazy. What matters here is that your attacks on him are... very bad. You're saying so much that he "claimed scum" by his quickhammer, even though you've personally seen town quickhammer like that before (Fate in Open 300). Your other main issue with him is that he didn't specify who he was unvoting when he hammered WLC. I mean, seriously? You can check his posts - he was voting Pom and me before that.

Super wifom defense. Terrible.

SOOOO Crazy's iso looks a lot worse than Empking's, but Empking looks worse in kunkstar's iso.

BUUUT Crazy's relational tell with kunkstar is really hard to ignore. I remember deciding Crazy was town in spite of it, but I really need to figure out why I thought that because I forget.

[Amrun]

Wait, Tar, wait.

What happened to your town read of Crazy?!

Is imaginality confirmed scum now?!

I wish someone was here to talk to me.


Crazy was scummier early game and townier later game and Empking was the exact opposite.

Fffffffffffffffffffffffffff

[Amrun]

Fuck it.

Fuck it.

I'm sticking with my mid-game read before I confused myself.

Here's to hoping we were right, then, DGB.

VOTE: Empking

[petroleumjelly]

Day Six Vote Count #5

3 Empking (imaginality, Crazy, Amrun)
2 Crazy (Empking, Tarhalindur)

With

5

alive, it takes

3

to lynch. Deadline is August 27 at 5:00 PM PDT.

Not Voting - 0 - Nobody

[petroleumjelly]

Empking, Townie, has been lynched!

Amrun, Townie, and Tarhalindur, Townie, have been endgamed!

Which means...

Crazy the Mafia Goon, imaginality the Mafia Goon, and kunkstar7 the Mafia Goon, win!

[Amrun]

aw FUCK

I knew imaginality was scum (or like 90% sure) after the way the wagons shook out, but I thought I thought Tar would NEVER come back in time to hammer him.


Awwww no.

I flip flopped SO many times.

Awwwwwwwwwww hell.

I hate this.

I was SO DAMN CLOSE to hammering Crazy.

The thing that made the difference was re-reading Tar in ISO and crazy demon seed of Tar-Empking-wifom paranoia because he voted Crazy without even mentioning his humongous Crazy-town post.

SORRY!

[Amrun]

I feel like shit about this.

I was rushing the decision because of my impending v/la, no access.

It shows.

Daaamn.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

[Low Key], Townie

2.)

Ameliaslay, Townie

3.)

Amrun, Townie

4.)

Crazy, Mafia Goon

5.)

Ellibereth, Thrillseeker

6.)

Empking, Townie

7.)

Furry, Townie

8.)

Hiraki, Townie

9.)

iamausername, Mason

10.)

imaginality, Mafia

11.)

kunkstar7, Mafia

12.)

Pomegranate, Townie

13.)

Ranmaru, Mason

14.)

RedCoyote, Townie

15.)

smallpeoples343, Townie

16.)

WeyounsLastClone, Benchwarmer

~

Mason

You are a Mason, and your partner is

XXX

. Both you and are your partner are Town. You may discuss the game with each other during Night Phases only (which includes pre-game, since the game will start in Night Zero).

You win when all the threats to the Town are dead, and at least one Townsperson is alive.

Confirm your role by PM.

Good luck, and have fun!
PJ

~

Thrill Seeker

.

If your vote is on the player who is lynched on a given Day, it will have an effect on the number of votes you get the next Day. If your vote helps lynch somebody who is not Town, then the next game Day you will receive three votes instead of two. On the other hand, if your vote helps lynch somebody who is Town, you will only have one vote the next Day instead of two.

In the event you receive a third vote, it will have the same restrictions as every other vote – namely, you still cannot place more than one vote on a single player at a time.

You win when all the threats to the Town are dead, and at least one Townsperson is alive.

Confirm your role by PM.

Good luck, and have fun!
PJ

~

Benchwarmer

.

You do not truly start the game with a “role.” Instead, you will take the role of the first Townsperson who dies.

If you replace a power role of any sort, you will not be privy to any of their prior information. For example, if you become a Doctor role, I will not tell you any of their night choices. You will simply receive the role.

You win when all the threats to the Town are dead, and at least one Townsperson is alive.

Confirm your role by PM.

Good luck, and have fun!
PJ

~

Townie

.

You do not have any special powers, but due to the nature of the game, you

do

get two votes instead of one. These votes are controlled by the rules of the game. Namely, you cannot use both of your votes on the same player at the same time – your votes must always be on different players.

You win when all the threats to the Town are dead, and at least one Townsperson is alive.

Confirm your role by PM.

Good luck, and have fun!
PJ

~

Mafia Goon

.

Your partners are

XXX

and

XXX

. They are both Mafia Goons.

At night (including pre-game, since that will be Night Zero), you may discuss the game with each other at your leisure. Please note that you

cannot

discuss the game during game Days.

Additionally, each night your group can collectively choose a single player to kill. One player in your group must send me a PM detailing who is to be killed, and which member of the Mafia will be performing the kill. If you do not tell me who is performing the kill, I will assume the player who sent me the PM is performing the kill.

You win when everybody outside of your Mafia group is dead, or nothing can prevent the same, and at least one member of the Mafia is alive.

Confirm your role by PM.

Good luck, and have fun!
PJ

[petroleumjelly]

Mod Notes

The inspiration from this game was an offhand comment I made a while back concerning how I sometimes wished I got multiple votes in the same game. When thinking about a game where everybody had two votes, I was fascinated by how much substance this was very likely to bring to each game Day. Wagons would be more plentiful, creating more topics of discussion and reactions.

When creating the set-up, one thing I was determined to do to complement the mechanic was to emphasize the Day phase. As such, I gave the town no roles that submitted night actions, and I also made the Mafia consist solely of Goons. In my opinion, there is a very bad meta -- for both moderators and players -- that games need power roles (and night choices in particular) to be considered viable, or fun. I very much disagree. As I hope most players will agree, this game was balanced just right. And as I also hope most players will agree, this game was perfectly enjoyable, even without traditional power roles.

To help emphasize the Day phase of the game, I ended up deciding to start the game with Night. Although seemingly counterintuitive, a nightkill provides an excellent starting point for suspicion. And furthermore, everybody assuming there is probably somebody in the game somewhere with "information" makes it so the so-called "random" stage of the game seems far less random. After all, why should it be random?

Of course, I my only concern with Night starts is the possibility that they will affect game balance. And hence, the elegant solution was simply to include a Benchwarmer role -- which would take the role of the first townsperson to die. So no matter what happened, the game was always (effectively) going to start with the set-up of my choosing.

One aspect I like about the double-voting mechanic is that although the scum still have the same proportion of votes, it seems to me that scum have less influence over the ultimate lynch. Because ultimately, there are simply far more town votes to outnumber the scum votes. (The game went from 12 v 3 votes to being 24 v 6 votes). Even if this theory does not really hold out in the wash (since the proportion is, after all, the same), I nevertheless think giving everybody two votes allows suspicion each day to fall on

everybody

who "deserves" suspicion, rather than letting somebody slide off into obscurity. This keeps the game fluid, interesting, and means players are almost always having to worry about at least one vote on them, and wondering whether the tide (which is

easily

turned with so many votes are about) might turn on them.

I'm fairly happy with how this game turned out, and I hope y'all enjoyed playing. And with that: thanks for playing!

[Empking]

Loved playing this game and I love the set up.

[imaginality]

Woohoo!

Well played Crazy and kunkstar7. It was a pleasure to be scumbuddies with you - I think we worked well together.

Well played town, too - things narrowed up a lot from D5 onwards, and we only just squeaked through in the end. I feel we had to work hard for this win - there were lots of smart players in this town.

Game thoughts

I'm very happy with how I played in this game... up to today, when I nearly blew things with the initial plan I suggested. The ironic thing is it's the kind of idea I would be likely to come up with regardless of alignment, but I totally should've realised how paranoid people would get about it. I think my vote on Empking was much better justified, but after Tarhalindur's smart move of voting Crazy, I was fully expecting to have to try to get Empking mislynched tomorrow. I can see how it was a tricky choice for Amrun to face though, especially with deadline pressure. I certainly wouldn't have enjoyed having to make that choice as town.

I don't think this was an easy game for us as scum. The double voting meant I never felt safe, kept town engaged and discouraged lurking. We were lucky perhaps that four out of the six days were short, although D2 and D5 were tactical choices by kunkstar7 and Crazy to give up their towncred in return for taking the quicklynch opportunity.

Our scum QT is here in case people want to read it. We spent a lot of time considering no-killing so that Crazy could claim doc and we could keep Ranmaru alive, but we decided just to kill him in the end. It's interesting to speculate on how things would've turned out if we'd chosen otherwise.

Set-up thoughts

I totally second Empking here - I also loved this set up (I agree the benchwarmer role is a very elegant role to include in a night-start game) and the double-voting mechanic in particular (so much so, I'm thinking of whether to incorporate double voting into the mini theme I want to run). Is it a new mechanic? If so, I'm going to nominate it for Best Mechanic/Mutation.

As well as increasing engagement and making the days more fluid, I feel like the double voting also gives more weight to people's votes. There's less need for players to compromise on their votes, when there are more wagons around - D4 went the longest and even then, there were stilll several possibilities for who'd end up lynched right up to the end. So, the "I want to vote X but he's not a viable wagon" situation comes into play much less.

And everything gamewise seemed to be handled wonderfully smoothly. Thanks for modding this, petroleumjelly!

One question: was there a graveyard QT?

[Quilford]

There was not a graveyard QT.

Thanks, pj!

[Quilford]

I assume the main reason a wagon formed on me is because I attacked Ranmaru's crappy case on Kunkstar, and now Ranmaru is confirmed town. I'm not really sure what I can say about that, except that I think it was pretty obvious that I was more about lynching Ranmaru rather than defending Kunkstar. But meh, if you guys have any questions for me, I'll be glad to answer them.

Looking for likely Kunkstar partners:

Crazy: (post 377) Your analysis of kunkstar seemed a little stating the obvious... "shape up- ship out"... why bother? Content fluff?
Kunkstar: (post 381) Good catch (I think) on Pom not really saying anything other than "scummy" to move her vote from rvs to real. I'd like to hear more about this from Pom.

This is Amelia's only mention of Kunkstar. The first line (incorrectly directed towards me) feels like a subtle defense - if only because scum tend to be in-tune with what other people are saying about their buddies.

Her replacement, Quilford, seems VERY bad in regard to Kunkstar's flip.

In Post #754, he puts Kunkstar in his "scum" list, but he never voted for him the rest of the game.

did Kunkstar hammer with absolutely no reasoning or comment again?

I'm beginning to think he's post restricted, lol.

This is bad because it reads like Quilford is trying to give Kunkstar an out. Also, this hardly seems like a reaction from someone who had Kunkstar as one of his main suspects. If Quilford was

already

suspicious of Kunkstar, then wouldn't the second quickhammer make him

raise

his suspicions (like Ranmaru's reaction), rather than make him think Kunkstar had a post restriction?

Today:

kunkstar flip was utterly predictable; I meant to put my vote on him yesterday but instead put it on you (make of that what you will, Amrun ;))

Here he's trying to act like Kunkstar was obvscum, even though there's

nothing

in his previous posts that suggested that he thought that. Check his ISO; his main suspects were DGB and Ranmaru, and now he's acting like he

knew

Kunkstar would flip scum? Come on...

I can't in good faith vote Quilford yet, since I haven't looked at everybody, but he's definitely scummy. I just don't know yet if there are people that look even worse off than Quilford.

This was such a terrible case though.

I should've hammered you for it at the time.

[Ranmaru]

No NO NO NO NO Quilford. Never again. Plz.

Stop with the hammers. We lost a townie because of that (you). We lost an accurate lynch because of that.

Please, don't quick hammer.

[Quilford]

What are you on about?

[Crazy]

This game was fun, and it seemed pretty balanced, too.

I was like the cockroach that wouldn't die in this game. I survived my Day 1 wagon, then that crap after Kunkstar's lynch, then my quickhammer on Quilford, lol.

I was pretty sure that Kunkstar would get lynched after his second quickhammer. My attack on Ranmaru actually wasn't an attempt to save Kunkstar; it was an attempt to make people think "Scum wouldn't be that obvious," in regards to me/Kunkstar interactions. I was pretty sure that if I did

nothing

about Kunkstar, then I'd be lynched anyway, and I didn't think I'd be able to bus Kunkstar believably, since I had totally ignored his wagon before that point. So I went for the WIFOM gambit.

I didn't think my hammer on Quilford was

that

bad. It's something that I might have done as town. Maybe. But my intentions there were to draw attention away from me/imag and tie myself more to Empking, since he was the leading wagon. (If I was lynched D6, then Empking would probably be lynched D7 over imag.)

I would have still probably defended DGB even if I was town, but probably not as strongly. Quilford's right in that most of my scum-cases were pretty bad. Especially Ranmaru, since Ran was pretty obv-town. But ultimately, it didn't matter if other people believed them as long as they believed that I believed them.

I can't believe I blew my chance with Tar thinking I was town, though, with one awkward statement I made. Kudos to Tar for figuring it out, though.

Overall, the best thing we did was probably all the distancing between me and imag. Thanks to imag for that, since that was mostly his doing.

It was a pleasure playing with all of you.

[Quilford]

Good god Crazy I wanted you to be town so badly after the braindead pile of mush that was Open 292.

[Amrun]

I was leaning towards hammering you, Crazy... If Tar hadn't flip flopped, I would have done it. But I should have been more firm. :/