The Brave and the Beautiful 2: Fairy Tales ÔÇô Game Over

[Fate]

Yay <33333

[Fate]

Robo, I won't have any of this cheeky "why are your townreads town we should be suspicious of EVERYONE TEHEE"

Thats not how I play.

My townreads are golden.

We will band together.

We will win.

TOWN ALLIANCE OF AWESOME
Amrun
Iece
Robo
Ooba



If we all vote LLD together Kunk/Spy will p. much have no choice to bus.

[Iecerint]

@ Amrun -- I already asked her that because I thought the hesitancy to call me dumb might reflect a belief that my wagon would lose steam s/p my long posts and hoping that I would be in a position to save her from the brink when the building focus on her climaxed, etc. (cf. "Why do you suddenly want to be friends?")

She said it was politeness rather than friendship as friendship has no place in mafia, etc.

[Amrun]

I have completed my skim /ISO of Brotherhood. More of the same. I want some more town games to compare, when LLD gets a chance - though I have played with LLDtown twice so far.

So far her play is far more consistent with her scum meta.

Iecerint, I know. The issue is that LL is a generally impolite pllayer, especially as town, so that comment threw me off quite a bbit.

[Kdub]

My initial vote and unvote of Iec was clearly RVS with no serious reasoning. My current vote on him was given with a serious reason. Major difference.

LOL @ kunkstar calling me out for flip-flopping on Iec (explained above) when he does the exactly that in the same post.

Iec:
So you voted Fate for a meta reason, he gives a response that you claim to think is reasonable and honest, and you still think your reason is valid? I am accusing you of fence-sitting because you have posted a lot in terms of volume, but I still can't tell what your actual opinions are. You are making statements about Fate and LL's actions, but your overall conclusion is "I'm not sure", and you don't seem to be doing much in terms of questioning or pressuring them to find out more.

[Iecerint]

So you voted Fate for a meta reason, he gives a response that you claim to think is reasonable and honest, and you still think your reason is valid?

You do not seem to know what valid means OR you are assuming I am using the word valid in a non-standard way.

Valid means that, given that the premises are accurate, the conclusion is correct. It means that the argument is well-constructed (NOT that it is necessarily accurate). This is different from accuracy/soundness, which also assumes that all the premises are also correct.

My point was that you claimed that I "backed off" of "giving reasons for [my] Fate vote," whereas I stand by the reasons for the vote 100%, think they were good, etc., and even Fate (implicitly) does not contest them (i.e. because his response was YEAH SORRY MAN I'M JUST HANGIN WIT DGB).

If the premise "Fate did this because he is scum" is inaccurate because really "Fate did this because he is hangin wit DGB," the argument is no longer sound, but it remains valid.

Relevance is a little technical, I guess. Mainly I was proud of my Fate vote when Ooba wanted kunk.

~~~~~

I am accusing you of fence-sitting because you have posted a lot in terms of volume, but I still can't tell what your actual opinions are. You are making statements about Fate and LL's actions, but your overall conclusion is "I'm not sure"

My actual opinions at this point are that I think ooba, LLD, and you are sketchy. I have specific opinions about Ooba, but I think he should post what his feelings are up to this point before I put words into his mouth. For LLD I can refer back to her meta after my exam.

As for you, I think your reasons for voting me were pretty iffy. Namely, red flags go off when anyone who should know better accuses me of fence-sitting, because I never shy away from champion fence-sitting. Your claim that I have nonspecific roughly equivalent suspicion of both LLD and Fate seems made-up, too, since I specifically indicated that it was NOT equivalent:

I am wary that LLD suddenly wants to make friends. And Fate, to a lesser extent. <_<

I may or may not have things for other players -- namely, I could SWEAR that SX has been in a game with me where I self-meta'd and we had a similar discussion...maybe Of Gods And Men? -- but they're peripheral right now.

However, many players have not really played the game yet, so I think it's too early to tunnel.

~~~~~

And you don't seem to be doing much in terms of questioning or pressuring [LLD or Fate] to find out more.

This is half made-up. I've had a back-and-forth with/re: LLD already. I'm pretty satisfied for now (she basically just kept saying BUT I COULD ALSO BE TOWN, which is not very helpful, so I didn't see much point in continuing) except for needing to read that game I mentioned again, but that's all.

Fate's explanation for his early play satisfies me and I don't need to hear any more about it.

I want to hear from Ooba, who is next on my list.

[Iecerint]

Actually, yeah. SX was the worship-warper in Of Gods And Men, and I think I remember an event mid-D1 with /self-meta moments with ABR and SX and Fate that Troll had to moderate, etc.

[SpyreX]

@Iec:

The meta part you're never going to sell me on. The fact that those posts exist at all is what I said what about. Because I can SEE from your response what you were doing but the WHY baffles me on a deep fundamental level.

------

As for Ooba (and I expect people to open their iso I'm not liking it boys and girls):

Dice business aside, at the point of his intro kunk vote he sidestepped one of his own statements (avoiding the biggest wagon on iec). Additionally, Fate fit the first two points in that madness also. And lets not get started on the "I would have been voting for Kunk too!" business (hint: if that were actually true and there was an actual reason the dice is a teehee starting vote but an excuse).

This is shenanigans writ large.

------

Robo, I won't have any of this cheeky "why are your townreads town we should be suspicious of EVERYONE TEHEE"

Thats not how I play.

My townreads are golden.

We will band together.

We will win.

TOWN ALLIANCE OF AWESOME
Amrun
Iece
Robo
Ooba

If we all vote LLD together Kunk/Spy will p. much have no choice to bus.

If this is the dance this game lets dance right.

As it sits, no way am I voting for LLD. Ooba AND with some of the other things going on aside, that LLD business is the exact kind of response I'd give to that junk.

So, if you're gonna push this through on the I'm scum with LLD (which means you think that wagon is all town hot dog) and LLD is town you're sheeping me for the rest of the game.

If LLD is scum you can rant and rave and push the lynch on me tomorrow or I'll sheep you.

The one thing I'm not doing is having this teaparty.

[Iecerint]

So I'm still unclear. Do you think I'm scummy for /self-metaing, or just ill-behaved? If the former, why do you think it is scummy for me to do it?

I am asking this because earlier you said that all of #1-3 were true, implying the former, but now you're like "I can SEE what you were doing from your response," which seems different from that.

[Amrun]

Spyre: I am satisfied with your explanation on ooba. I noted the "largest wagon" thing myself.

But excluding the one post that Iece and robo took issue with, what do you think of LLD's overall play? I have a scumread in SPITE of that post, not because of it.

Robo, have you ever played with LLD before?

[SpyreX]

So I'm still unclear. Do you think I'm scummy for /self-metaing, or just ill-behaved? If the former, why do you think it is scummy for me to do it?

I am asking this because earlier you said that all of #1-3 were true, implying the former, but now you're like "I can SEE what you were doing from your response," which seems different from that.

If you're good enough to be able to self-meta usefully (oxymorons hoo) you're good enough to manipulate said meta. Its not SCUM FOUND but if it had to be placed on the weights of the grand scales of death it'd be on that scum side.

I can SEE what your giants posts were for but I can't see WHY it would ever be necessary - noise at best, a lot of defense for a page 3 vote at worst.

But excluding the one post that Iece and robo took issue with, what do you think of LLD's overall play? I have a scumread in SPITE of that post, not because of it.

Its not stellar super awesome. However, since almost all of it is tied into that there's not much pick apart aside from it. Realistically the reaction and subsequent posts are either town irritation at ooba's business et responses or scum puffing up for a fight. I think its the former. I'd be shocked and awed if that wagon was all town.

[Iecerint]

Thanks, that clarifies.

I have never intentionally manipulated my meta in my life in the way you intimate is likely given use of /self-meta. The closest thing to that is that in the past when I was in a large number of games I used to self-consciously force myself to use a rhetorical device I'd used in one game in another game within a day or so as a means of keeping my playstyle as neutralized as possible. But that doesn't apply now that I'm not in lots of games, and the fact that the vote was motivated by Ooba's shift to serious voting makes it objectively unlikely that an outside game motivated my move, anyway.

I do sometimes lie by omission with /self-meta as scum -- for example, I might indicate something accurate about my meta in response to something someone says, but fail to point out why it wouldn't apply in the present circumstance because of extenuating circumstances, etc. But I have never outright made something up.

I posted it because I know that I would NEVER have voted Fate in those circumstances as scum. It would be anti-scum given that I was scum (unless I was scum with Fate). I do not vacillate at all when I self-reflect on this. I think players may read my post and, if they feel the same way, come to the conclusion that I either planned all of that (which IMO is bullshit, because it's just begging for policy-type punishment) or I am town.

I think /self-meta can be useful when it can be established that the other half of the WIFOM is sufficiently more anti-scum.

Given that you have personal awareness that I am a total wimp as scum, I am a little surprised at your indifference with regard to how that post should be interpreted.

[ReaperCharlie]

The Brave and Beautiful Vote Count

1.3

---

Lady Lambdadelta [4] – Robocopter87, Fate, havingfitz, Amrun

kunkstar7 [2]

– ooba, bv310

Fate [1]

– Iecerint

Iecerint [1]

– Kdub

Kdub [1]

– kunkstar7

ooba [1]

– SpyreX

Robocopter87 [1]

– Lady Lambdadelta

Not Voting

– Albert B. Rampage, Kast

---

With 13 players alive, it is 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is July 1 at 12pm PST (3pm EST).

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Amrun, I do have a town meta for using that defense.

Also, I've pretty much grown tired of yelling at people. It's too much emotional investment in something I really shouldn't care that much about.

I'm not currenty able to grab a game where I use the Rhetoric thing, but it's something I say when faced with attacks based solely on Rhetoric.

Not that I particularly enjoy the use of Meta in this case. I'm obliging because it's somethin you asked for, but Meta is a useless basis for arguments.

Amrun, you have a scum read inspite of that post? What are your main problems?

Oh, and look: Robo made another set of bad posts. I'll get to those when I'm not on my phone.

[ooba]

@LL - Why shouldn't I call out scum teams on page 2? On page two, that mild connection was enough for a call-out. I always think in terms of scum-pairings so I'll keep doing this - so if it really irritates you that much, you can keep ignoring my posts ..
Well town wants to move out of RVS as soon as possible - that generally involves joining the biggest wagons .. Another random vote never helps .. Plus timing - I had just asked for a wagon on kunstar - you didn't even comment on it ..

- Robo is town
- Iece's reaction is golden and town
* But I think you have an unrealistic expectation of my scumhunting abilities ever since Greek mythology mafia. "Something sophisticated" on P2?. I mean you said the same thing in [Redacted] too.
* "In other words, I think the town thought process looks for why someone's motives are odd, but the scum one looks for categorical flaws in someone's play." -> Good logic.
- So is Fate

@Fitz: I knew I was going to be wrong than right with a call based on that logic but it wasn't a *lol random* call.

- Kdub's vote on Iece in 71 is odd and gives me scum vibes.

Amrun is town
- After LL's reaction, my thoughts exactly on wanting to meta her.
@Amrun - since you've gone through the games, can you confirm this for me - does LL usually follow up a "that logic is dumb" post with a vote? It is something I remember as LL's town meta but I'm not sure .. i.e I want to see if her not following up that lashing by a vote on me is indicative of scum meta ..

- Kunstar's 83 is funny. ooba, Robo are ridiculous. LLD is not scum. But I'll vote Iece?
- His 92 screams bussing to me.

83: Kunstar
@SpyreX, Lol - Fate and me are scum?
Granted on me not voting Iece, but he had said that he would be busy till tuesday so didn't see the purpose in voting him at that point.

@101: Same town list!

I will join this alliance of awesome!!

Town: Robo, Iece, Fate, Amrun
Null: Kast, ABR, bv
Scum: LL, Kun, Kdub, SpyreX

@107: SpyreX
Granted me on not voting Iece with my first vote but I didn't do that specifically because he said he'll be busy and didn't see the purpose in wagoning somebody who wouldn't respond.
Nice stretch on me-Fate though - Fate didn't vote somebody else after I had asked for a wagon on kunstar.

@Iece: "My actual opinions at this point are that I think ooba, LLD, and you are sketchy."
You think LLD is scum with me after that kind of outburst?

---

Unvote. Vote: LLD

[Robocopter87]

Robo, have you ever played with LLD before?

I have not. I am pretty sure, but not 100%. I don't recall any time we have.

Oh, and look: Robo made another set of bad posts. I'll get to those when I'm not on my phone.

You are the Discredit-o-matic. Yes, please respond to the posts when you have time.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I am still on my phone, but I'll note that I have indeed played with Robocopter before, in MultiplePersonalityMafia, hosted by Parama.

Fate played in that one too. Ask him for his opinion of Robo's play in that game.

Or maybe I should just show you how Robo himself described his play in that game?

All this and more~, when I get onto my computer.

[Amrun]

LLD: I pretty clearly explained myself all ready. I am noticing a drastic playstyle shift that is more consistent with your scum meta. What I specifically don't like about your play in this game is your appeasement of everyone and the buddying with Iece, whom you have never even played with before. (You have an outstanding question from me about this, btw.)

You started off with something that is more "normal" for what I think of as your town play, but as soon as you came under fire, you calmed right down and started being level-neutral with everyone and it is clanging alarm bells in my mind.

This is unusually meta-heavy, but it is early game. I would have never had the urge to meta you if you hadn't changed your playstyle immediately as soon as suspicion fell on you, and that plus the buddying/appeasement in this game is why I am voting for you. The meta is just verification.

Ooba: Not necessarily, but I need to double check.

[Robocopter87]

Yes, it was terrible. I know. Jeez.

I'm working on improving my playstyle, because I totally hate the way I played and how badly it was.

I did win though. And I was town.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD: I pretty clearly explained myself all ready. I am noticing a drastic playstyle shift that is more consistent with your scum meta. What I specifically don't like about your play in this game is your appeasement of everyone and the buddying with Iece, whom you have never even played with before. (You have an outstanding question from me about this, btw.)

You started off with something that is more "normal" for what I think of as your town play, but as soon as you came under fire, you calmed right down and started being level-neutral with everyone and it is clanging alarm bells in my mind.

This is unusually meta-heavy, but it is early game. I would have never had the urge to meta you if you hadn't changed your playstyle immediately as soon as suspicion fell on you, and that plus the buddying/appeasement in this game is why I am voting for you. The meta is just verification.

Ooba: Not necessarily, but I need to double check.

I have explained why my meta has changed. I refuse to yell anymore, due to a refusal to become emotionally invested in these games anymore. I'm reacting more calmly now, because me yelling doesn't help us. (See: PYP)

The buddying wasn't actually buddying so much as it was me just trying to calm down, and not be misunderstood. I don't want this game to be about me yelling at everyone, and then Fate SDCing me to death.

As for your outstanding question, can you find that for me?

[Amrun]

LL, you called Empking (town), bobsnox (town), and tclawren(scum) dumb in that game. Why do you hesitate to call I Iecerint dumb here?

Refers to Camden.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh, that answer is the same as my above post. I'm trying to be nicer in games, because I really don't like yelling etc. etc. etc.

Besides, PYP has taught me that you can convince people that you are right more when you are nicer, than when you use WORDS WORDS WORDS.

And convincing people of your arguments is something both town and scum want, so really that motivation is null.

[Amrun]

What's the difference between robo's bad logic and Iece's bad logic in this game? Are they both scummy, or only Robo?

Who in PYP taught you that you catch more flies with honey? (Certainly not Prana.)

[Lady Lambdadelta]

It was me talking to UK after the fact, and also talking to RayFrost.

With Robo, I feel like it would be very hard for someone to come to the conclusion he did without scrambling for a reason. In his original vote post, he gave no reason but "disliking reaction", and when I pressed him for what part of it he didn't like, his reason seemed poorly thrown together and scummy.

Iece's reasoning appears more cautious and attempting to understand the reasoning. It MAY be interpreted as fence sitting, but I don't think that is the case here. I see town intent in Iece's hesitation and questions in this case.

That's the main difference between them.

[Fate]

blah blah blah blah

IEcrint is so obviously town

PLEASE NK him N1, or else he'll

wall us onto a fence for the rest of the game

lead the town to victory.

SpyreX is being cheeky fuckin scum.

The LLD wagon is full of justice and glory

All we need is ABR to get on his laptop and vote her