Team Mafia: White Flag Mafia

[DemonHybrid]

You know me personally. You're my friend on FB and we've played offsite before multiple times. By saying "you're smarter than this", that's a form of appealing to my emotions. Of course, I should know you know better than to try that with me, but Occam's Razor is making my thoughts stop there.

Actually, it's pointing out that your case is full of fallacies and is really quite false, and you are a definite competent player. There's a lot in the case that you've assumed that just isn't true. I'm not trying to appeal to you. Just pointing out the wrong.

You're not getting my point. It's not the questioning part, it's the "BUT LOOK AT ALL THESE OTHER PEOPLE, AND YOU'RE SINGLING ONE PERSON OUT" part.

Yeah, but I stated that question without suspicion and was waiting for an answer.

You said "everyone can be scum". That's like me going around saying "everyone can be town", or "people vote for other people", or "scum can talk at night". It's obvious and isn't really content.

But it was an assisting part of my point. If I sat here with one post and went "Oh, anyone could be scum or town. Anyway, back to not posting anything", yeah, you'd have a valid point, but it's like you don't even realize I had a whole other 95% of the post that dealt with other things.

It was supposed to be obvious and it's something Llama completely passed over.

This statement was talking about this:

Anyways, you agree with me about Equinox. Wagon up?

What? No, I said I wasn't denying the fact that he

could

be scum.

FoS: LlamaFluff

Not the one you're talking about. A bit of a miscommunication there. This:

I'm not denying that Equinox could be scum, however, it's weird that you believe that it's an Equinox-IP team due to Equinox's behavior, yet you won't vote for or mention IP and instead debunk the wagon. Why?

Was also not meant to be a trap. It was a legitimate question. I never said anything was a trap; I even stated the opposite.

I don't care. There was a VC posted shortly after your vote: you at least HAD to have seen that before changing your vote to me. Right after Klazam switched sides, too.

Or, because I hit reply, voted mith, walked away from my computer, came back, read up to Equinox's threat and then posted and agreed with her on you. Just as I said.

Except obviously he does, and that's why he's voting him. Seriously DH, that question was the epitome of active lurking. Or was at least very very stupid.

"Do you see any scum-motivation behind his posting,

and if so, why?

"

1. I wanted the why more than anything.
2. I wanted to clarify the suspicion on Socio so that it was clearly understood.

You're beating a dead horse.

Question for you, DH. If you're not part of the scum on my wagon, then who is? Preferably in order of most likely to least likely, thanks.

I have scumreads that I have stated. I'm not going to analyze wagons quite yet; I'm focusing on behaviors and logical fallacies. I suspect no one on your wagon, since DGB and Llama are not on it.

@DH - Then you should stop making your posts sound like statements instead of actual questions. There is nothing else to answer though, your first question sounded like a statement, so I ignored it.

What kind of excuse is that? I thought my terminology was very clear.

This is also looking like a response. When someone makes a challenging and valid statement against someone else's play, the normal thing to expect is a response, yet you completely ignored it. Even if they aren't phrased as direct questions, you at least have

something

to say, right?

[DemonHybrid]

I agree with Equi about Chris, town read there.

I'm interrupting my reading to answer this. I don't agree. Could be a alt faking the nO0b card, I don't know. Maybe he's from a weak team. I will judge him on his own merit.

Do you think that someone would create an alt just to start out faking the noob card? I'm finding that hard to believe.

[Klazam]

Sotty- look at socio's posts. 7 posts, with no real content.

[SocioPath]

Klazam's post 133 is giving me some town vibes as well, reads like newbtown trying to get a foot in the game. Offering up a list of reads out of the blue like that is good, but the fact "everyone else is null" is pretty poor. Reads very natural though.

I don't agree.

'Null/not enough info/everything else', except those directly dealing with me.
Then concludes it must be me.
Cherry picking info for a silly "case".

Equinox + DGB being scum as well...well I hope its not that easy.
Would Klazam REALLY out his whole scumteam that easily in a town/scum list?
I didn't think he was THAT new.

Sotty- look at socio's posts. 7 posts, with no real content.

Yes, ISO me.
Don't look at context.

[SocioPath]

SocioPath picked the scum game, though.

Wait...
THE scum game?
What are you implying?
Oh this is good.

Unvote
Vote: DGB

[InflatablePie]

Unvote, Vote: DGB

I have more than one reason for this vote, aside from agreeing in seeing what Socio is. I won't be disclosing them, though.

mith, you've been browsing Coney Island often tonight. I hope you're making a post and explaining why you still haven't placed a vote down yet.

DH, don't think I'm letting you out of my sights either. Just diverting my attention. Although, to clarify, you don't suspect ANYONE on my wagon? Despite it being a L-2 RVS wagon? Is it impossible that there was scum on my wagon?

[Klazam]

'Null/not enough info/everything else', except those directly dealing with me.
Then concludes it must be me.
Cherry picking info for a silly "case".

Equinox + DGB being scum as well...well I hope its not that easy.
Would Klazam REALLY out his whole scumteam that easily in a town/scum list?
I didn't think he was THAT new.

Sotty- look at socio's posts. 7 posts, with no real content.

Yes, ISO me.
Don't look at context.

Point #1: I did ask questions and make comments. False logic. Why i vote you is because i find you scum, due to your minimal content.

Point #2: i dont see where you're coming from with that. Look at the relevant parts of my list, below:

DrippingGoofball- Null. Questions: What favorite scumtells do you see in sotty’s post? It’s obvious you think that Socio would take a scum role, regardless of game. True or false?

Equinox-Very aggressive on “The Tell”, due to wanting to get out of RVS, seems like. Jumps off IP due to IP’s self vote putting him at L-1. Does not explain why the LlamaFluff vote was made, until a bit later. I’m leaning town on equinox due to his early play. I want to hear more about the Sociopath vote. Is it only because of the misrep you talk about?

I said that i thought equinox was town. I also said DGB was null, and asked DGB questions to clear up a couple things about what DGB said. Nowhere did i say that DGB and equinox was scum.

Point #3: I never said to take you out of context. Here's what i see from you, taken in context:

Post 1,2: Confirm/RVS
Post 3: Answers Llmarble's question. Kind of decent here, but you try to create a elaborate reason why you're not scum.
Post 4: Refusing Equinox's comments and voting me because i voted IP
post 5: Pointing out two quotes of Equinox, without elaborating. What is this post even supposed to mean?
Post 6: Sarcastically complimenting Equinox for voting you.
Post 7: Basically says that my reason for voting IP was terribad, and revotes me. (This is unvoting me and voting me again, which serves no purpose.)

That is the entirety of your "contribution". Am i reading any of these wrong, or taking any of these out of context? I think not.

================
PEdit: I think that means that DGB apparently has a secret team meta read on socio. (I think reasonings like that is inherently flawed.)
PEdit 2: LOL. IP doesnt like a person being voted for basically the same reason that IP was voted by equinox.

[InflatablePie]

PEdit 2: LOL. IP doesnt like a person being voted for basically the same reason that IP was voted by equinox.

Yeah, yeah. Like Equi, I dunno if I can go into details either. Call it a policy lynch.

[mith]

InflatablePie: When I vote, it's a sign that I am willing to lynch someone; I don't vote randomly. If I'd had more time this morning to read the game, I probably would have voted; as you say, there is plenty of information available at this point. (I'm sure you can figure out what the M word is from the context of me calling this a Vanilla setup.)

Thor: "Mith is scum because he's bothering to take time to attack someone's town reads..." - Eh? If you're talking about Llamarble, I wasn't attacking his town read; what I found eyebrow-raise worthy was that I asked you both a question and he answered for you, with a more convincing answer for you than for himself.

I'll see if I can delve into the back-and-forth arguments (Sotty7/Thor665, InflatablePie/DemonHybrid) when I am more awake tomorrow, but my current reads after skimming and some ISO:

DemonHybrid - 45 is just weird. Points 1 and 3 look out of place in a post where he ends up voting InflatablePie, and point 2 (presumably the reason for that vote) is agreement with something Equinox never said. Then comes the discussion with LlamaFluff (and later InflatablePie), during which I'm noticing a big hole that needs filling:

DemonHybrid, what

do

you think of Equinox? You've talked an awful lot about her without actually saying anything about your read on her.

Llamarble - Aside from the above, the whole "leaving a random self-vote in place while posting a partly dodgy questionaire" thing Sotty7 points out definitely rubs me the wrong way. I agree with Thor that Llamarble's play doesn't feel like optimal scum play... it does, however, feel like sloppy scum play.

Equinox - Nothing has changed here from my previous post. His seeming push to run up InflatablePie doesn't mesh with his apparent lack of counting skills. Also spends a lot of time talking about my wagon... at the moment, feels like some sort of indirect buddying.

LlamaFluff - The exchange with DemonHybrid is odd, rhetorical statement or no. Can't shake the gut read, but still not seeing anything overtly scummy.

DrippingGoofball - The "lurker hunt" comment feels so familiar to my most recent DGB experience, where she was scum. (Not the specific comment, just the vibe.) Lots of comments about scumtells/towntells... which is a nulltell, probably.

InflatablePie - I don't like self-votes, and particularly a L-1 "I dare you to lynch me" self-vote seems more like a scum tactic (either his buddies are on the wagon and can unvote, or they're off and he doesn't have to worry as much about someone hammering). Since that, though, he's making sense.

SocioPath - Just barely above the non-active line; multiple posts with little content. [edit]Until the DGB one; don't feel strongly about it, but it makes me feel better about Sociopath that he spotted the possible slip.[/edit]

Sevei - The non-active line.

Thor665 - Other than the "I wanna hammer mith" comment, has looked quite town.

Klazam - Good point on SocioPath; otherwise, under my radar.

Chris B - Hasn't posted much, but what's there feels awfully genuine.

Sotty7 - Liking how she thinks.

[mith]

Vote: DemonHybrid

[DemonHybrid]

DH, don't think I'm letting you out of my sights either. Just diverting my attention. Although, to clarify, you don't suspect ANYONE on my wagon? Despite it being a L-2 RVS wagon? Is it impossible that there was scum on my wagon?

Like I've said: You, Llama and DGB are on my scumlist. We don't have a flip, and therefore, wagon information is useless at this point. That isn't to say that voting behavior should be looked at, but it shouldn't be the main focus.

DemonHybrid - 45 is just weird. Points 1 and 3 look out of place in a post where he ends up voting InflatablePie, and point 2 (presumably the reason for that vote) is agreement with something Equinox never said. Then comes the discussion with LlamaFluff (and later InflatablePie), during which I'm noticing a big hole that needs filling:

DemonHybrid, what do you think of Equinox? You've talked an awful lot about her without actually saying anything about your read on her.

First of all, at the moment, I'm fine with Equinox. If I had suspected her, I would have said something about it. She's doing a heavy amount of scumhunting and she's making a lot of sense. I asked her about the other people who play strong scum games to clarify my read on her, and #49 was a strong townish response. I believe I have the right to agree with a point, even though I don't have a specific read on a person.

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry, I hit submit before it was finished.

Pie, your wagon was followed with a vote from you onto yourself. I don't think that a wagon like that has a lot of worth looking at. I'm busy with other things.

mith, second of all, what was odd about my exchange with LlamaFluff?

[DemonHybrid]

Here, just to humor you, I tallied up the wagon when you were L-1:

InflatablePie (6): Equinox, Thor, Llamarble, Klazam, DH, IP

This was on page 3. Equinox reads off town to me, as does Thor. Llamarble is iffy, but not a strong scum read. I'm not sure what to make of his OMGUS. Klazam is still unreadable to me because I can't figure out his motivation.

So, yeah, no strong scum reads on your wagon. However, I noticed something in your ISO. You barely mention Llamarble, even though he's one of the people on your wagon. You've said a ton about Klazam, but almost nothing about Llamarble. Can you give me a full read on him?

[Llamarble]

On stuff pointed at me:
@Llamafluff: I'm not sure what points you're accusing me of ignoring;
She said my question "why should I believe you're town" was useless and asked why I didn't move my vote off myself when I talked meta.
I answered both those questions. My post was primarily concerned with her scumminess.

@Sotty 149: By 'why should I believe you're town' I was looking for people to give reasons they would choose a town role over a scum role.
Hence "Why did each of you choose this game / why should I believe you're town?"
Any team with 1-3 scum role PMs had members opt into being town/scum, so meta suggesting which you'd pick is useful.

@Mith: Some people have stronger meta-arguments for their towniness than others.
I substantially prefer town, but scumroles aren't anathema to me. Hence I couldn't point to meta saying "ZOMG I HATE BEING SCUM."
My research on Thor validated his claim about his 'townie at heart' meta and I reported as much.
So maybe he gets more townpoints than I do, but my point was to help identify alignments, not prove myself 100% town.

I'll give Sotty's longer 139 its own response post. And then bedtime.

[Llamarble]

Response to Sotty 139:

Actually, talk me though everyone's answer and what impression it gave you of them.

Ugh, I'm too tired. Anyway, I mentioned here that most of the answers weren't ultrahelpful by themselves especially because people wouldn't teamclaim.

Everyone ignored you. What does that tell you? Also did you realize that I hadn't posted until just a minute ago? I was away most of Sunday night prepping for an interview I had today which is why I was delayed to the game after my RVS.

The fact that you made a serious post while keeping a ridiculous vote on yourself suggests to me a disconnect. You followed this up with your first serious vote being a sheep of the Equi/Thor push on Pie. Yeah, I wasn't impressed.

Uh, everyone ignoring me obviously tells me nothing of consequence.
You posted 10 minutes after my self vote without comment on it so I wanted to know why the fact that I self voted became interesting later.
As for 'a disconnect,' no significant thought went into considering a change of vote there.
I posted my meta thoughts and FoSed people I thought might have picked scum.
"WHY DIDN'T HE X" is easy scumpainting logic because it is readily wielded against townies and sounds logically sound.
In my and most other cases, the answer is "I didn't think about it at the time."

And yeah, my strongest read at that point was moderate town on Thor who requested a sheep.
WTF could I more usefully have done with my vote there? Put it on the toothless Mith wagon?

Walk me though this cause I'm not getting it.

Basically you thought I was scum who was voting for someone you found scummy (Klazam).

"I noticed a supersecretmetatell" is a weird BS thing to make up, but yeah if it was BS, it was townish BS (except she's stuck to it and Thor apparently also found it). Also you're complaining about Equinox complaining about the wagon you just finished complaining about. Again I am seeing 'this is something I can jab at' instead of coherenttownperspective.

This is a lot of empty words of nothing. Why is it townies BS? As for the complaining deal what are you talking about?

You said you disliked most of the votes on the Mith wagon.
Then you say you dislike Equinox for confronting people on the Mith wagon as to why they picked that wagon over IP's.
Confronting people on the Mith wagon is absolutely reasonable if you dislike the votes on it, so you calling Eq out for it feels jabby and nontownsensical.

And using BS to push an early RVS wagon seems pro-town to me; the point of that stage of the game is to get things moving for read-generation.
When I see somebody doing something I think is pro-town, I don't typically go 'deliver yo reads immediately.'

[DrippingGoofball]

SocioPath picked the scum game, though.

Wait...
THE scum game?
What are you implying?
Oh this is good.

Unvote
Vote: DGB

A game with a scum role, that's how you ended up here.

[DrippingGoofball]

What favorite scumtells do you see in sotty’s post?

I forget where that was but now I think Sotty is town. I've played with Sotty as scum and as town. I think this is her town version.

It’s obvious you think that Socio would take a scum role, regardless of game. True or false?

Exactly. And he's admitted as much on three different occasion, in this very game. I think joking about being scum is the same as being scum, I've explained the mental theory behind this.

[TheButtonmen]

D1VC3:

Socio (3): DGB, Equinox, Klazam
Klazam (2): LlamaFluff, Thor
DGB (2): Socio, IP
Equinow (1): ChrisB
Llamarble (1): Sotty
DH (1): mith
Sotty7 (1): Llamarble
LlamaFluff (1): DH

Not Voting:, Sevei

With 13 alive it's 7 to lynch.

[DrippingGoofball]

Catching up; will post later today.

I've seen too many scumz lurk and fake business and postpone

ad infinitum

. Sevei is scum.

Sociopath & Sevei. Only one left.

[DrippingGoofball]

@mith

Scumlist plz.

I'm underwhelmed.

Also, Sociopath is scum. How many times does he have to say it before you believe it?

[Sotty7]

DH, can you put the names of the people you're quoting in the quotes please? It's even more important when you make big posts like 150. It feels like you're talking to yourself almost.

Response to Sotty 139:

Actually, talk me though everyone's answer and what impression it gave you of them.

Ugh, I'm too tired. Anyway, I mentioned here that most of the answers weren't ultrahelpful by themselves especially because people wouldn't teamclaim.

Okay, I can give you this when coupled with a team claim. Did anyone's answers to this question give you anything to work with? Or is it all bunk now because of the lack of team claiming?

When I first saw your self vote I rolled my eyes and ignored it because it is one of the least helpful things that can happen in RVS. The joke was also bad. When you later made a serious post without moving your vote it made the self vote look even worse and really grated on me.

FOSing is about as helpful as the self vote. Why didn't you vote someone with a strong scum game? It would have been 100000% more helpful than leaving your vote on yourself. The FOS suggests a weak attempt to throw early game dirt on these people cheaply. Even more so when you didn't back it up and keep your joke vote active. Then instead of following up on anything in this post, you chose to sheep Thor and Equi over nothing. This does not smell like logical town thought progression to me.

Basically you thought I was scum who was voting for someone you found scummy (Klazam).

Scum can't bus? Also at this point my scum reads aren't connected, I had found you and Klazam independently scummy. This is a bad attempt to discredit me.

You said you disliked most of the votes on the Mith wagon.
Then you say you dislike Equinox for confronting people on the Mith wagon as to why they picked that wagon over IP's.
Confronting people on the Mith wagon is absolutely reasonable if you dislike the votes on it, so you calling Eq out for it feels jabby and nontownsensical.

Did you even read the reasons?

Mith's wagon had a lot of parroting. That always makes me cringe.
Equi asked people to disagree with her wagon or join it, yet hadn't provided ANYTHING to disagree with.

What's the problem here? Both of these things are bad.

And using BS to push an early RVS wagon seems pro-town to me; the point of that stage of the game is to get things moving for read-generation.
When I see somebody doing something I think is pro-town, I don't typically go 'deliver yo reads immediately.'

Do you think Equi was pushing a BS wagon, or does she have a scum tell she can't talk about?

[DrippingGoofball]

And a ONE.

SocioPath picked the scum game, though.

VOTE: Sociopath

Oh. Or wait. Then there is that.
DGB just knows me too well.

And a TWO.

On second thought, let's roll with this.

Unvote, Vote: SocioPath

I'm going to let the thread breathe now.

Thats more like it.

And I forget why I thought there was a third.

But then there is this load of self-metamanure:

The mountainous setup is one that is pretty generally stated as being unbalanced for town.
I feel this is bullshit and people keep relying on power roles and using them as a crutch.
There is nothing more pure than actually having to use your words and rely on that instead of waiting around for silly night actions.
Or hiding behind soft claims, or bread crumbs, or cryptography, or other silly nonsense.
Even though this game waters it down a bit with its non-needing of killing the last scum.
So I picked this game for a sense of proof, to show what can be done.
Considering I've won mountainous games in the past, and that was to the last scum dead.
So playing as scum in this game would be counter-productive the point, and would only re-enforce the negative lighting.

So, according to his self-declared meta, we should assume that Scummopath would choose a town game, because as scum this would be COUNTERPRODUCTIVE??? REINFORCE THE NEGATIVE LIGHTING?

Socio's own meta isn't even convincing.

And then he seems to agree that he's scum.

ROPE TIME

[DrippingGoofball]

Sotty, who are we lynching?

[Sotty7]

I was just about to ask you were the 3rd Socio scum claim was because I could only see two. I do agree that his reasoning for picking this game + town seemed... over the top? Yeah. Hmm..

What's your opinion on Marable DGB?

[Sotty7]

Get with the program, please. Explain why you disagree with the other wagon or die.

No thanks.

Unvote
Vote: Klazam

This was the post that made me think Socio was town. His out right refusal to co-operate with Equi combined with a good Klazam vote.