Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[mozamis]

Not with you. Why do we assume that because he has claimed VT, he is either VT or scum. How do we know he is not a cop, serial killer, vig etc etc etc
How do you know there arent any other options?

[SensFan]

Not with you. Why do we assume that because he has claimed VT, he is either VT or scum. How do we know he is not a cop, serial killer, vig etc etc etc
How do you know there arent any other options?

If he's a Cop, then he's not a Townie. Therefore he's lying. But Town doesn't lie. Therefore, he's not a Cop.
If he's a Serial Killer, then he's not Town. Therefore, he's not Town.
If he's a Vig, then he's not a Townie. Therefore, he's lying. But Town doesn't lie. Therefore, he's not a Vig.
By induction, my thesis holds that he's either a Townie or he's not Town.

[Porochaz]

Yeah, there isn't much room for movement in regards to his claim. Apart from Sens post above, lets not give him too much credit, he may not be definitely town but he wouldn't be smart enough to claim other than when he is scum or vt. Also if he was a power role, it would just add another layer of nonsensicalness to the claim in the first place.

[LlamaFluff]

Agree with lynching Vezok for effectively narrowing down the PR list.

Disagree with doing it quickly. There is no benefit beside seeing who jumps on the wagon.

So you want a policy lynch of vezok, but you want to draw it out?

DeathNote's post was, however, quite scummy, and contradictory. I think he tried to say what Yos said before, but he made a mistake. That may have been just a slip, but it is scummy nonetheless. I think we need his confirmation to what he really meant by that.

Why not vote then?

As for Vezok claiming VT, meh I dont really believe him, nor am I willing to buy primates read that he only does that as town.

Can you explain your read on vezok then? You say that you dont believe him so you think that he is scum?

You misinterpreted my post Agar. Vez has narrowed down the PR list and is who I want to lynch. Of course, someone else could become more scummy and change my opinion which is the reasoning for not wanting a quicklynch as suggested earlier. Quick days help scum, not town.

So what is "scummier" because this all seems more or less arbitrary to me now. You already called him scum for claiming VT *sigh* and say its because it makes it obvious he is not a PR, but running someone else up does the exact same thing correct?

Good early wagons are DN and CPE

Vote DN

[Yosarian2]

Why do people keep calling it a "policy lynch"?

A policy lynch is generally when you lynch someone to try to change their behavior, or to make a point, or something. Lynching a claimed VT isn't a policy lynch, it's a strategic lynch that actively improves the town's odds of winning, all else being equal.

Toon Fighter's post, though, looks pretty odd to me:

DeathNote's post was, however, quite scummy, and contradictory. I think he tried to say what Yos said before, but he made a mistake. That may have been just a slip, but it is scummy nonetheless. I think we need his confirmation to what he really meant by that.

I don't at all get what you're trying to say. If you think he was trying to repeat what I said, then why was it "scummy" or "contradictory"? What "mistake" do you think he made, that may more may not have been a "slip", but is "scummy"? What do you want him to clarify?

This post really feels like Toon Fighter is trying to have it both ways about the death note case, trying to attack Death Note and "sound reasonable" at the same time, and I dislike it.

[DeathNote]

So what is "scummier" because this all seems more or less arbitrary to me now. You already called him scum for claiming VT *sigh* and say its because it makes it obvious he is not a PR, but running someone else up does the exact same thing correct?

You are hurting my head. I can not keep up with your thought process so I am going to ignore it and spell it out elementary style for you.

Vez claimed VT.
Vez is not a town PR.
Scum now know not to kill Vez.
Vez can be scum.
Everyone else can be a PR.
Vez is safest lynch.

Vote: Vez

BTW- i want it drawn out so I can see reactions to lynching Vez. *Cough* Llama *Cough*

[LlamaFluff]

Vez has narrowed down the PR list and is who I want to lynch. Of course, someone else could become more scummy and change my opinion which is the reasoning for not wanting a quicklynch as suggested earlier.

BTW- i want it drawn out so I can see reactions to lynching Vez. *Cough* Llama *Cough*

Which is it?

Your first one says you would be happy with other lynches, now you say you arent going to budge but want reactions. If someone is for sure dead, all actions regarding that slot are essentially null once the sentence is signed.

[Amrun]

VOTE: ToonFighter

His attack on DN came off as really scummy to me, like he'd hop on a wagon but if no one agreed with him he'd left room to back out.

[mozamis]

Not with you. Why do we assume that because he has claimed VT, he is either VT or scum. How do we know he is not a cop, serial killer, vig etc etc etc
How do you know there arent any other options?

If he's a Cop, then he's not a Townie. Therefore he's lying. But Town doesn't lie. Therefore, he's not a Cop.
If he's a Serial Killer, then he's not Town. Therefore, he's not Town.
If he's a Vig, then he's not a Townie. Therefore, he's lying. But Town doesn't lie. Therefore, he's not a Vig.
By induction, my thesis holds that he's either a Townie or he's not Town.

I just meant he could be town but a PR. (A cop is a townie etc) Though I grant you, I can't see why he would lie about it.
My point really was that I just think we should be entirely neutral about his claim. I do see what you mean. I just think we should ignore it really.
ps induction is inference from experience -you meant a priori reasoning

[DeathNote]

@Llama- Both. I am for lynching Vez now but could easily be swayed into lynching you based on your reaction of a scum Vez.

[SensFan]

Not with you. Why do we assume that because he has claimed VT, he is either VT or scum. How do we know he is not a cop, serial killer, vig etc etc etc
How do you know there arent any other options?

If he's a Cop, then he's not a Townie. Therefore he's lying. But Town doesn't lie. Therefore, he's not a Cop.
If he's a Serial Killer, then he's not Town. Therefore, he's not Town.
If he's a Vig, then he's not a Townie. Therefore, he's lying. But Town doesn't lie. Therefore, he's not a Vig.
By induction, my thesis holds that he's either a Townie or he's not Town.

I just meant he could be town but a PR. (A cop is a townie etc) Though I grant you, I can't see why he would lie about it.
My point really was that I just think we should be entirely neutral about his claim. I do see what you mean. I just think we should ignore it really.
ps induction is inference from experience -you meant a priori reasoning

To clarify the terminology I used:
Townie - A role with no abilities and a Pro-Town win condition
Town - A role with a Pro-Town win condition

He has claimed to be a Townie. Thus, he is either a Townie, a Town PR, or not Town. If he's a Town PR, then he's not a Townie, then he's a liar. But Town doesn't lie. Thus, he's not a Town PR. Thus, he's either a Townie or not Town.

[Kison]

@Llama- Both. I am for lynching Vez now but could easily be swayed into lynching you based on your reaction of a scum Vez.

Which could not possibly happen until tomorrow.

[DeathNote]

@Llama- Both. I am for lynching Vez now but could easily be swayed into lynching you based on your reaction of a scum Vez.

Which could not possibly happen until tomorrow.

Correct

[Mastermind of Sin]

Since inHimshallibe has not confirmed his /in by the end of the week as promised, I will be searching for his replacement. However, as I did not send him his role pm (merely a prod to have him confirm), he can still replace into the game later if he wishes.

[Bamboomancer]

I forget how to play this game...

VOTE: Vote: Bamboomancer

No, shit, I'm doing it wrong.

VOTE: Unvote: Bamboomancer

Now that I've gotten my opening joke out of the way, can we all just slow down? I don't know anything about track records or anything so all that is irrelevant at this point for at least one or many players. I'll be reading a bit to try to get to know you all who've joined in my absence. Also hi to everyone I knew in the past!

[Surye]

Not with you. Why do we assume that because he has claimed VT, he is either VT or scum. How do we know he is not a cop, serial killer, vig etc etc etc
How do you know there arent any other options?

If he's a Cop, then he's not a Townie. Therefore he's lying. But Town doesn't lie. Therefore, he's not a Cop.
If he's a Serial Killer, then he's not Town. Therefore, he's not Town.
If he's a Vig, then he's not a Townie. Therefore, he's lying. But Town doesn't lie. Therefore, he's not a Vig.
By induction, my thesis holds that he's either a Townie or he's not Town.

I just meant he could be town but a PR. (A cop is a townie etc) Though I grant you, I can't see why he would lie about it.
My point really was that I just think we should be entirely neutral about his claim. I do see what you mean. I just think we should ignore it really.
ps induction is inference from experience -you meant a priori reasoning

Excpet he claimed vanilla. So your line of reasoning means nothing.
To clarify the terminology I used:
Townie - A role with no abilities and a Pro-Town win condition
Town - A role with a Pro-Town win condition

He has claimed to be a Townie. Thus, he is either a Townie, a Town PR, or not Town. If he's a Town PR, then he's not a Townie, then he's a liar. But Town doesn't lie. Thus, he's not a Town PR. Thus, he's either a Townie or not Town.

[Surye]

Ebwop, dont know what happened:

except he claimed vanilla.

[SensFan]

Ebwop, dont know what happened:

except he claimed vanilla.

So...him claiming Townie precludes him from being one of {Townie, Scum}?
I'm not following.

[Surye]

Ebwop, dont know what happened:

except he claimed vanilla.

So...him claiming Townie precludes him from being one of {Townie, Scum}?
I'm not following.

Thats because I miss read what you wrote. You were making the same point I was, but I thought you were agreeing with him.

[Porochaz]

I have no idea what went on in the last few posts.

[Surye]

I have no idea what went on in the last few posts.

I misread sensfan as being incorrect in the same way mozamis did, I posted, but my phone messed up my quoting the first time.

[Surye]

Okay, reading the pregame and day so far, I like the Vez bandwagon. Since a lynch would, especially D1 with as little information based on PR due to no n0, be either best case senario, or second to best (scum, or no PR). I'm fine with taking as much time as we want on the actual lynch, however scum and town alike will be likely to lynch him, in either case. Bussing someone who claims VT, especially one that has meta from others as a bad player/policy lynch regardless of the claim, leads little information on the bandwagon itself.

I think unfortunately with his claim, we've lost a chance at a lot of information we could have acquired on D1, and we're going to end it with much less for the PRs to go on in the night.

So,

Vote: Vez

[LlamaFluff]

Lynches of randomly claimed VTs are a bad thing. Lynches of claimed VTs on day one is actually a borderline bad thing (seriously). A lynch of Vez today is near for sure going to be a lynch of town, so naturally, a bad thing.

[BrianMcQueso]

Lynches of randomly claimed VTs are a bad thing. Lynches of claimed VTs on day one is actually a borderline bad thing (seriously). A lynch of Vez today is near for sure going to be a lynch of town, so naturally, a bad thing.

Really? Damn, I wish I had claimed VT in pregame so I could be "near for sure" innocent in your eyes. This is Mafia, pal. People can lie (seriously).

[LlamaFluff]

Lynches of randomly claimed VTs are a bad thing. Lynches of claimed VTs on day one is actually a borderline bad thing (seriously). A lynch of Vez today is near for sure going to be a lynch of town, so naturally, a bad thing.

Really? Damn, I wish I had claimed VT in pregame so I could be "near for sure" innocent in your eyes. This is Mafia, pal. People can lie (seriously).

Experience shows it comes from town from scum at a rate slightly more then game average, so its a town tell. Players like vezok are also near unreadable due to the erratic nature of their play, so I prefer to just lock them in as a slight read early and just make sure they sheep a town read. If I get a town read on vezok and vezok sheeps me or someone else I think is town the entire game, I am happy with it.

Even though this isnt the exact situation my "dont lynch the VT" tell applies, I think that there is enough going here to call vezok town.

What did the VT claim do for your read on him?