How to balance games?

[warpdragon]

Is there a specific method that works, such as using a random number generator to stimulate random choices? Or is it a skill that comes form playing many games and seeing many outcomes? Is best just to get more opinions from people who choose to help you rather than be in the game?

[jeep]

The best way is to get a lot of experience and get at least one other experienced player to help you determine the balance.

Some tips though:

• Mafia generally have a LOT more information and that is a big advantage. Anything that gives them more info, will help them more than it would help a normal townsfolk.
  
• Mulitple killing groups tend to HELP the town, provided there is enough pro-town players.
  
• Role blockers are almost even money. They will end up blocking some pro-town roles. (They are overpowered if blocking any mafia member blocks the whole mafia.)
  
• Masons are a pretty solid swing in favor of the town.

I might do more later.

-JEEP

[Dragon Slayer]

Jeep, you or whoever else does the FAQ part of the site should post those tips. They're good references especially for rookie mods.

[warpdragon]

Ok that being said, who wants to critique my Kill Bill MiniTheme?

[rolandofthewhite]

OOH.

If you mod that, I

am

playing.

[mathcam]

Send me a copy and I'll take a look.

Cam

[PolarBoy]

Of course there is no substitute for serious analysis. Ask yourself what would happen in various scenarios. The more possible scenarios you consider, the better you'll understand your game and the better you'll be able to make the necessary adjustments.

Also realize that the game does't need to be an even chance for all factions for the game to be fun and fair. For instance, it's generally understood that serial killers have a relatively now chance of winning, and that's ok, because it's interesting to play as a serial killer when the game is set up well. Ultimately the success of your game will be judged on the kind of player involvement you had, so It's more important that everybody have something to do and be able to make practical choices based on their role.

[Mr. Flay]

I haven't modded yet, so take these with a grain of salt. But I have written a bunch of games I hope to eventually test...

1) Random numbers to simulate choices is a good early step to see all of the possibilities.
1b) If the game isn't too large you can make a pairwise matrix: Put all roles across the top and the side of a spreadsheet, and where they intersect figure out the outcome. Make sure to keep in mind what happens if either party is roleblocked, doc-protected, mason-recruited, etc... I generally keep that around for resolving night actions when the game is actually running, sort of like a cheat sheet.
2) Random effects (partial-chance protections, random investigations, etc) are harder for players to accept even if you feel they'll "add" to the game, or help balance things. Have you read the metabalance thread? As long as all sides have some reasonable chance that they can survive/win, you've probably made a decent game. Hobbit Mafia is a good example of an imbalanced game...
3) Making one role that the town/mafia's survival depends upon is tricky. Go through your entire game scenario assuming that Role X got killed Night One before anyone ever got to post. Do both sides still have some chance, or is it a foregone conclusion?
4) I second the motion to put some of these tips out there, either in the FAQ or on the Wiki...

[Save The Dragons]

Mr. Flay, can you send me an example of this 'cheat sheet' thing? Because I'm not too sure what it is, but it sounds interesting.

[jeep]

I think he means something like this:

\

[col]

role1

[col]

role2

[col]

role3

Role1

[col]X[col]When Role 1 targets role 2, this happens[col]When Role1 targets Role3, this happens

Role2

[col]When Role 2 targets role 1, this happens[col]X[col]When Role2 targets Role3, this happens

Role3

[col]When Role 3 targets role 1, this happens[col]When Role3 targets Role2, this happens[col]X

[Save The Dragons]

Oh, ok. If no one minds, could I see an actuall example anyway?

[warpdragon]

jeep: most of that will read something like "cop investigates townie: innocent"

[Mr. Flay]

Something along these lines is what I use (mileage may vary)

Target -->

[col]

Bodyguard

[col]

Roleblocker

[col]

Cultleader

Bodyguard

[col]X[col]Protected from one night kill attempt[col]Protected from one night kill attempt

Roleblocker

[col]Night action fails[col]X[col]Night action fails

Cultleader

[col]Recruited to cult's side[col]Recruited to cult's side (unless blocked)[col]X Make sure that if you have two of any one role, you put them both in the table, to account for double-kills, double-roleblocks, etc...

[warpdragon]

That makes sense, but then wouldnt you have to go through thousands of possible actions for each night choice for it to yeild reslts or did I miss something?

And couldnt the RB block the CL for recruiting the BG in the above example?

[Mr. Flay]

Well, you're talking about a little bit more than X*X situations (X being your number of roles), but not *that* many. That's why I tend to word protection roles in terms of how many attacks they count against, and kill attempts in terms of how many attempts they count as. If kills>protections, the person dies.

In answer to your second question, that's why precedence of actions is important. Do investigations always go through first? Protections? Recruiting? Blocking? Does it depend on when they send in their PM (note: I don't think this is used very often)?

*checks notes* For example, I've got this in one of my game setups:

Night actions (generally speaking, night actions will be resolved in the following order: role-blockers, protection, investigative, killing/recruitments [but see below]):

It makes sense to me to do it that way; role-blockers are useless if they resolve after anyone else, protection should probably be considered 'simultaneous' with kill attempts, investigations should happen even if the person dies 'later' in the night...

[Stewie]

I just do worst case scenarios.

What's the wcs for town? Is it too bad?
Repeat for each group. If it's not too harsh, you are good to go.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ok that being said, who wants to critique my Kill Bill MiniTheme?

oooh, must...play...in...game...

[warpdragon]

Flay: if there are 5 night choices targeting any of 12 people, that is 60 possible nights, then look at 12 possible lynches, then another 50 or so possible night choice combos etc and you need to multiply them together. The first 2 days yield roughly 60x12x50x11 = 396000 possible games. And then some minis go on to days 5 or 6, so you have many millions of possible games. Look at the way all of the beginner mafias play differently, with just a basic 7 person setup.

[Mr. Flay]

Flay: if there are 5 night choices targeting any of 12 people, that is 60 possible nights, then look at 12 possible lynches, then another 50 or so possible night choice combos etc and you need to multiply them together. The first 2 days yield roughly 60x12x50x11 = 396000 possible games. And then some minis go on to days 5 or 6, so you have many millions of possible games. Look at the way all of the beginner mafias play differently, with just a basic 7 person setup.

Nah, you're misunderestimating me. I'm really only interested in two things:
a) does it break the game to lose Role X, no matter how cool I might think it is?
b) do Roles M-W have a chance in hell of being effective/fun/winning?

My spreadsheet, which I suspect you're actually referring to, is merely a tool for logistical issues. Does investigation happen prior to killing? Does it make a difference if a killer refrains from killing that night? Does the doctor do anything if they protect the roleblocker who blocks the person trying to kill the roleblocker? I'm not foolish enough to try to map out the entire game ...though as the OP mentioned, I do generally run a few 'random number generator' games to see if the outcomes get weird/skewed.