Mafia 124 - Dilemma Mafia (Day 6)

[rekirtS]

^^^ She not he, my bad.

[Final Fires]

Unvote: Albert

UNVOTE: Finalfires It's way to early to lynch so i'm going to unvote just incase he is a newbie.

And then just a few posts later...

It depends what you mean by him being a noob, he said he's a noob to this forum so he knows how to play so think before and decide what you mean by noob.

You unvoted me because I was a newb, but then later on it sounds like you're trying to convince rekirt that I'm not actually a newb? That seems conflicting to me. What was your intent with the latter post?

[DarlaBlueEyes]

I have a very good reason to not vote ender based on his play thanks to a newbie game we were/are in together. It's his meta. He seems scum when he's not. He's just really nooby, and while I am ~recognizing~ his scum-haviour, I am also noting that for once I have reliable meta on a player and can say that I do not intend to make the mistake of assuming his noobness to be scumness without more solid proof.

And last but not least...

That bought out the scummy behaviour , my vote on Yos stands.

What is this supposed to mean?

Two of you asked this.

I brought out alot of the newbie behaviour (post61) that ender was doing , which 2 of you have agreed he was making, but ended the post saying im sure hes just a newbie but most probaly town. Yos jumped on the points i made trying, i believe, to start a BW . Having already marked down Yos as scum , hence my already vote on him, i made this comment.

^^^^ This I don't understand. A. Are you claiming you set up the ender situation, or taking credit for his behavior? Because comments like that make me think that this is a premeditated scum move. (It's been awhile since I did a large normal, do scum usually get day talk?) If they do, I can see this as a slip, plus distancing. B. Why have you marked Yos scum prior to your vote on him? Maybe I am misunderstandign your wording here, but if you had a case on him, why is this the first we're hearing of it? and what about him besides his vote on ender to you find scummy? Because several other people voted ender too, why not look at them? What's your read on the other members of the ender-wagon?

[Yosarian2]

That bought out the scummy behaviour , my vote on Yos stands.

Care to explain this, whisky?

[Yosarian2]

I brought out alot of the newbie behaviour (post61) that ender was doing , which 2 of you have agreed he was making, but ended the post saying im sure hes just a newbie but most probaly town. Yos jumped on the points i made trying, i believe, to start a BW .

My analysis of ender's behavior, and my vote for him, had nothing to do with your post at all. I don't agree that ender's behavior is just "newbie behavior"; Fire's stuff just looks like newbie behavior to me, but Ender looks actaully scummy, in that he was willing to have his vote be determined by pressure from others; he seems more concerned about his appearence then about finding scum with his vote, which is scummy.

[Empking]

Vote Count 4

After the town changed micro-wagons faster than a rabbit running from a cheetah, you all eventully collapsed in a pile of tiredness glancing at four individuals with a hint of suspicion.

1. bobsnox (1) - Albert B. Rampage
2. DarlaBlueEyes (2) - Bub Bidderskins, rekirtS,
3. Albert B. Rampage (1) - DLG
4. DLG
5. Jahudo (1) - Nikanor
6. Bub Bidderskins (1) - Jahudo,
7. Pomegranate
8. Brokenscraps
9. rekirtS
10. Nikanor
11. Yosarian2 (1) - MoreWhisky
12. Final Fires (2) - Brokenscraps, ender241
13. ender241 (2) - Yosarian2, bobsnox,
14. MoreWhisky (1) - Pomegranate

Not Voting: DarlaBlueEyes, Final Fires,


With 14 alive its 8 to lynch.

Also, I'd like to remind everyone that its been 48 hours

[MoreWhisky]

I brought out alot of the newbie behaviour (post61) that ender was doing , which 2 of you have agreed he was making, but ended the post saying im sure hes just a newbie but most probaly town. Yos jumped on the points i made trying, i believe, to start a BW .

My analysis of ender's behavior, and my vote for him, had nothing to do with your post at all. I don't agree that ender's behavior is just "newbie behavior"; Fire's stuff just looks like newbie behavior to me, but Ender looks actaully scummy, in that he was willing to have his vote be determined by pressure from others; he seems more concerned about his appearence then about finding scum with his vote, which is scummy.

I totally agree with you saying Ender is more bothered with his apperence, but i see that more of a newbie act than scum. I suspose we will eventually find out whos right.

[Bub Bidderskins]

11. Yosarian2

(2)

- MoreWhisky

Mod: You may want to fix that.

Darla once again shows that she is willing to point out scummy behavior but not willing to act on her observations. That non-commitant conservative play indicates scum to me.

@Darla: If you don't really think that ender is scummy, then who do you think is scummy at this point?

@ender: What was it about rekirtS' post that made you want to revote Final Fires?

[ender241]

Basically i really don't know in my last game (which i have recently been killed as doc which was a newbie game) i did it alot i should really stick to my votes...

[bobsnox]

Vote: bobsox

Reading back his posts will prove to be useless as he hasn't justified any of his votes. I think he's hiding something.

I thought it would be easy to infer my reasons

[DarlaBlueEyes]

11. Yosarian2

(2)

- MoreWhisky

Mod: You may want to fix that.

Darla once again shows that she is willing to point out scummy behavior but not willing to act on her observations. That non-commitant conservative play indicates scum to me.

@Darla: If you don't really think that ender is scummy, then who do you think is scummy at this point?

@ender: What was it about rekirtS' post that made you want to revote Final Fires?

So far I am not getting incredibly strong OMGSCUM vibes from anybody, but I have a good deal of suspicion building on Whiskey in these last few posts.

I am still not happy with Whiskey's explanation - he seems to be avoiding actually answering for what he said, and completely ignored my post.

@Whiskey please answer this post: #77

Until you do,

Vote Whiskey

- answers please.

[MoreWhisky]

As i pointed out with my long post quoting ender i believe hes just a newbie town (which i might add so do you Darla post 64). After i spent time explaining this Yos comes on next and votes ender for being being scum. I actually thought this made him scummy as i thought my explanation over ender behaviour was pretty accurate, hence my next post calling Yos for posting AT THAT TIME scummy.

My initial vote for Yos on page one was a start of game joke vote, thats why i put my vote stands on post 63.

I really hope ive answered satisfactory Darla

[Pomegranate]

quote="DLG"]@ Pomegranate
Why did you elect to respond to Final Fires' apology and neglect to respond to either mine or Bub Bidderskin's direct questions to you?[/quote]

I felt that responding to his question would also provide a response to your question. And it was easier to respond to FF's statement due to the fact that it wasn't a pointed question, because those fluster me, and I usually end up doing what Ender did. That brings me to my null read on him, because although is initially seemed really scummy and I was inclined to follow Yos, I thought about it and realized that I've done similar if not the same things before when town.

--

Honestly, I simply meant to tell you to stop being so serious, and although it may have seemed hostile, it wasn't meant to be. I have a null-overeager-newb read on you ATM.

If you view Final Fires as town, then does that make the people who vote for him scummier, even if just by a little bit?

Did I say that I "view Final Fires as town"? I said that I have a null (aka neutral) read on him, which is not the same thing.

--

UNVOTE: .

[DLG]

UNVOTE: Albert B. Rampage

I felt that responding to his question would also provide a response to your question. And it was easier to respond to FF's statement due to the fact that it wasn't a pointed question, because those fluster me, and I usually end up doing what Ender did.

Yes, your response to him did provide an answer to me. However, the rest of your reason gives me pause. Repetition of this kind of play will be grounds for major suspicion from me.

Basically i really don't know in my last game (which i have recently been killed as doc which was a newbie game) i did it alot i should really stick to my votes...

Up until this post, I was not getting a scummy read off of ender241. This post, however, reads like someone who is nervous trying very hard to reinforce the idea that their suspicious behavior should be ignored. It is also worth noting that DarlaBlueEyes supplied the excuse that ender241 is hanging his defense on.

FOS: ender241

I thought it would be easy to infer my reasons

You thought wrong. You also completely avoided DarlaBlueEyes question to you earlier asking for an explanation of your bandwagon vote on Final Fires.

HOS: bobsnox

Where are brokenscraps, Jahudo, and Nikanor?

[DLG]

VOTE: DarlaBlueEyes

DarlaBlueEyes's stance on ender241 is extremely wishy-washy. She has not provided reason for pushing the Final Fires wagon without being willing to vote. She used MoreWhisky's not answering her question as reason to vote him, but did not find bobsnox doing the same thing even worth noting.

I think Bub Bidderskins and rekirtS are on the right track.

[Jahudo]

Where oh where should I place my vote?

• ABR's vote on bobsnox is meh. People that don't give reasons for voting could be opportunistic, but they also stand out like a sore thumb and that's usually something scum think about early in the game.
  
• DLG's vote on ABR has reasons I understand, but think its way too early to argue someone is lurking/fluffposting scum.
  
• Whisky's vote on Yos looks misguided. I don't think a difference of opinion on a tell (in this case ender's cautiousness being newb tell vs scum tell) means either Whisky or Yos is less likely to be town. Or am I misunderstanding the case?
  
• Bub's vote on DBE has me interested because her latest post has a vote change, his biggest issue with her. Do you think its a genuine transition, Bubs? I can kinda see why she held off voting ender, but that doesn't make her town because...
  
• DBE's case on Whisky in #77 doesn't make any sense to me. To me it either looks like an accidental misinterpretation of his words or an intentional misrepresentation of his words. But I won't step on the investigation because I want to see if Whisky made it clearer now or if he can make it clearer for her.

• The point about ender being worried about how he might look to others doesn't mean much to me. I think that is just a newb tell that could apply to town or scum equally. BUT I do have an issue with ender not re-voting FF when he first becomes aware that he can without hammering. I don't think it has anything to do with caution or self-image. To me it means his reason for voting might not have been to pressure or question FF at all, otherwise he would have been thinking about trying to do it without a vote, or realizing he could do it with a vote again.

I'd like to know more about ender's thought process when he unvoted. ender, what did you plan to do next when you unvoted? why didn't you re-vote as soon as you could? What was your intention when you placed the vote in the first place? I have doubts you did it from a town standpoint now.

Vote: ender

I might also support a DBE wagon after I see some more from her.

@ALL: Who thinks DBE's post 77 about Whisky is still valid? Who understands what Whisky said?

[rekirtS]

VOTE: DarlaBlueEyes

DarlaBlueEyes's stance on ender241 is extremely wishy-washy. She has not provided reason for pushing the Final Fires wagon without being willing to vote. She used MoreWhisky's not answering her question as reason to vote him, but did not find bobsnox doing the same thing even worth noting.

I think Bub Bidderskins and rekirtS are on the right track.

Townie points for you, at first I was a little suspicious of you but I've found myself agreeing with these last two points. DarlaBlueEyes was definately wishy woshy.

I am still not happy with Whiskey's explanation - he seems to be avoiding actually answering for what he said, and completely ignored my post.

@Whiskey please answer this post: #77

Until you do,

Vote Whiskey

- answers please.

Wait so you're only voting until you get an answer? For someone who initially hadn't voted yet on either of her two scummy vibes but shes voting because Whiskey missed a question?

Lynch this scummy scum.

[Final Fires]

Ender, you never addressed my question (#76). Also, I'm very tempted to place my vote for you right now. It seems that the only argument for you is "He's not scum because he's acting scummy - that's just his meta!". That argument won't fly with me for long. With that being said, some more experienced players whom I trust seem to be ok with you, so for now I'm holding back my vote.

He's just really nooby, and while I am ~recognizing~ his scum-haviour, I am also noting that for once I have reliable meta on a player and can say that I do not intend to make the mistake of assuming his noobness to be scumness

without more solid proof

.

@Darla - You keep talking about how you want more solid proof before you cast a vote, but if this is the case why were you so quick to vote for Whiskey with very little reasoning or evidence?

Did I say that I "view Final Fires as town"? I said that I have a null (aka neutral) read on him, which is not the same thing.

I believe Bub was referring to this:

Honestly, I simply meant to tell you to stop being so serious, and although it may have seemed hostile, it wasn't meant to be. I have a null-overeager-newb read on you ATM.

(When we were discussing if I was an over-eager newb or an over-controlling scum.)

Where are brokenscraps, Jahudo, and Nikanor?

Brokenscraps posted on a thread just today. I'm not sure if this is sign of a scum (lurking I believe - or is this too early?) but I'll leave it to the more experienced players to interpret it for what it's worth, if anything at all.

@ALL: Who thinks DBE's post 77 about Whisky is still valid? Who understands what Whisky said?

I don't think many of DBE's points stand now, but there's one that still needs an answer:

and what about him besides his vote on ender to you find scummy? Because several other people voted ender too, why not look at them? What's your read on the other members of the ender-wagon?

Whiskey would you mind addressing this?

[brokenscraps]

Sorry for the absence, just got internet access back today and have had to catch up with all my games.

UNVOTE: Final Fires

This newbe put his first vote ever on me

It's like I took his mafia virginity

Well he put his first vote on Yos actually... but using first time voted as a measure this would be the second mafia cherry I've popped in a matter of weeks.

---

Happy with pressure on bobsnox.

I might also support a DBE wagon after I see some more from her.

Translation:

Hmm, this DBE wagon sure is growing fast, maybe if I mention that I'd be willing to support it once I see more from here I'll be able to jump on it whenever I want, wouldn't that be great!

As to my views on Darla: honestly comes off as a cautious playstyle, but ehh... don't know.

People are jumping on her wagon in a way I don't like though. No original thought jumping on what other people say? Some of you even mention you found her suspicious earlier yet you wait till Mr Bidderskins votes before you start jumping on? reskirtS, DLG & Jahudo, you're being watched. Don't like the low level buddying going on between some of you either.

VOTE: Jahudo for the sneaky little justification for switching between the two largest wagons whenever you want.

[Pomegranate]

Did I say that I "view Final Fires as town"? I said that I have a null (aka neutral) read on him, which is not the same thing.

I believe Bub was referring to this:

Honestly, I simply meant to tell you to stop being so serious, and although it may have seemed hostile, it wasn't meant to be. I have a null-overeager-newb read on you ATM.

(When we were discussing if I was an over-eager newb or an over-controlling scum.)

I also believe Bub was referring to that. But I didn't call you town, but "null-overeager-newb". Key word: null.

[Jahudo]

I might also support a DBE wagon after I see some more from her.

Translation:

Hmm, this DBE wagon sure is growing fast, maybe if I mention that I'd be willing to support it once I see more from here I'll be able to jump on it whenever I want, wouldn't that be great!

Not whenever I want. I said I was waiting for her to react to Whisky's latest post as a reason I wouldn't push my case any further yet. And as far as I can tell its an original thought, so no hopping on other people's reasons either.

[Yosarian2]

I totally agree with you saying Ender is more bothered with his apperence, but i see that more of a newbie act than scum. I suspose we will eventually find out whos right.

(shrug) It can be both. In this case, it's the kind of tell that newbie scum are especially likely to make, because they haven't yet learned to better hide their scum thought process.

[Albert B. Rampage]

UNVOTE: Final Fires

This newbe put his first vote ever on me

It's like I took his mafia virginity

Well he put his first vote on Yos actually... but using first time voted as a measure this would be the second mafia cherry I've popped in a matter of weeks.

Yosarian was a random vote, that's like a slutty hanky panky but the hymen is still intact

[bobsnox]

@DLG - I didn't even notice Darla had questioned me.

I voted Final Fires for this and the other scummy content within that post:

Let me just say though, if you vote me off, you won't only be voting off a townie, but a powerful townie at that. If you have to lynch me tonight then fine, but afterwards maybe you'll take my accusations seriously.

"Don't lynch me! You'll be sorry!" Newb? Ok I can buy that. But someone to keep an eye on for sure.

Now I'm much more interested in lynching ender or Darla. I could go for either.

I FoSed Ender in #52 for his scummy unvote of Final Fires because it was "too early" for a lynch. He was scared (apparently?) that a lynch would soon ensue when FF only had 4 votes on him? scummmmy Why be afraid of that lynch anyway? FF seemed like a good enough candidate to vote but not to lynch?

Darla is all over the place. She goes from leaning scum on Ender to this junk within two posts:

I have a very good reason to not vote ender based on his play thanks to a newbie game we were/are in together. It's his meta. He seems scum when he's not. He's just really nooby, and while I am ~recognizing~ his scum-haviour, I am also noting that for once I have reliable meta on a player and can say that I do not intend to make the mistake of assuming his noobness to be scumness without more solid proof.

Someone with a meta on Darla - is this scum or town Darla?

[Empking]

Bumping the Vote Count