Mafia 123 - Outdoorsmen Mafia 2 GAME OVER

[nhammen]

Vote: Evilpacman18

I don't like that you start out the game voting for everyone you've played with before, honestly. It seems like you're setting them up where they can't vote you without OMGUSing, and they also happen to be the ones that know you best, and thus will have the best chance out of all of us as pegging you as scum. Although, I find it VERY interesting that the person you ended up voting was DemonHybrid. Perhaps he's your scumpartner, considering you confirmed at about the same time AND you happened to vote for him with your first RVS? That's just a coincidence I'm not willing to believe.

This logic seems to be a bit too much of a jump for me to believe. But whatever floats your boat. At least it looks like a Townie type of leap.

Or I just went down the playerlist and voted for everyone I knew in the order they appeared. And I don't mind if they vote me. OMGUS is ok. It's RVS.

This makes me believe you are annoyed Town.

Parama. Easier to say.

This, however, draws other conclusions. Why give a reason at all? Although, this is a very small tell, so I'm more inclined towards Town right now.

If EPM is scum, so is Guderian.

Consider my scumdar pinged, DemonHybrid.

Seems to me like you're trying to distance from your RVS vote... It seems odd that you would choose to make your vote so logical and mechanical as opposed to all of your other games where you were town...

Wait. Voting based off of players that you have played with before is considered logical now?

By the way, the town reaction is "oh, then I hope EPM is not scum then", not "WHAT HOW DARE YOU GOOD SIR VOTE, LYNCH FUCKING DIE!"

But a Townie wouldn't say that first one, even if they were thinking it. In fact, having been a Townie in a similar situation previously, I thought of attacking the person that made this accusation. So... yeah. And now that I think of it, having been in another similar situation before that, I acted very similarly to Guderian, except without the vote, at first, but still having the "are you serious" comment.

I also like how that question was extremely rhetorical. I'm becoming more confident with the EPM vote by the second.

I'm trying to decide between dumb town and scum with you DemonHybrid. I have a question for you, why do you consider rhetorical questions a scumtell?

@Nacho 40 This seems almost too confident... slightly decreased Townie points.

The question is not rhetorical.

"Are you serious? If so, you should be lynched. *votes*"

Not rhetorical at all. Nope.

Not a bit.

Nah ah.

And why is it a scumtell? You seem to be hunting for excuses to vote, rather than hunting for scum!

VOTE: DemonHybrid

Will catch up on the remaining posts after I finish dinner.

[DemonHybrid]

nhammen is horribly misguided town. But it's okay, reading is fundamental.

Rhetorical questions dismiss scumhunting and instead favors a bullying attitude over finding information, so that's why it's a scumtell. Notice that he didn't wait to find out whether I was serious or not; he just didn't care.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Guderian]

Calling people town in an effort to get them to like you is a common scum tactic to make it appear hard to lynch 'the nice guy'.

You are so horribly fabricating things now that are patently false its ridiculous.

[DemonHybrid]

Calling people town in an effort to get them to like you is a common scum tactic to make it appear hard to lynch 'the nice guy'.

You are so horribly fabricating things now that are patently false its ridiculous.

Like Nacho is doing

Like Parama is doing

But those guys are okay to you, right?

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, you dodged the rhetorical question bit, too, now that nhammen brought that up. Why did you think it was not rhetorical?

[Guderian]

I asked you straight up, are you serious. No joke involved.

Why should I be going after nacho or parama? What about them would you like me to look at and evaluate?

[DemonHybrid]

I asked you straight up, are you serious. No joke involved.

Why should I be going after nacho or parama? What about them would you like me to look at and evaluate?

First off, your vote was based on:

"Are you serious?"

then

"If so, then you need to be lynched"

meaning that if I WAS serious, then I needed to be lynched, otherwise, I...didn't need to be lynched, I guess?

I never said it was a joke, I said it was rhetorical, and you didn't wait for reasoning before putting a vote on me. You never wanted an answer, you never wanted information. That means it's rhetorical.

Second of all, I'm saying that I am counting off my town reads in the same fashion that Nacho, Parama and 60% of the mafiascum community do. So, why am I the target and not the other people in this game, especially when they have said the

same exact thing

that I have? (In the following order no less: Nacho, DemonHybrid, Parama).

[Untrod Tripod]

DH, I found a book about your situation



hope this helps

hugs and kisses,
Untrod

[DemonHybrid]

Not one person has found a "hole" in my logic that I was not able to refute, so I have no clue what the hell you're talking about.

[Untrod Tripod]

holes. you're digging them for yourself. then people vote for you.

[DemonHybrid]

holes. you're digging them for yourself. then people vote for you.

Please find some examples of these holes.

[nhammen]

@Guderian 43: I agree with this post.

My EPM vote was not serious at the time. So, you're wrong about that. My confirmation that if EPM is scum, then you are IS serious and what I was talking about. So you're wrong.

Interesting comment. Because looking back, you used this nonserious vote to springboard into accusations against other players. And yet, by the time of this post at least, you have not made what you consider to be a serious vote. In fact, you are just piggybacking off of other players' accusations against EPM, while denying that your own accusations are serious. Wow!

I did not set up a chain of lynches, either. "If EPM is scum, then you are" only sets up your lynch if...well, EPM is scum. And you seem to be freaking out on the premise that I made that up. Which means you're soft defending EPM. Cool.

I'm not understanding this section of this post. What do you mean by soft defending? Wouldn't he be soft-implying that he believes EPM is scum, whatever his alignment is?

You can thank EPM for setting himself up as scum and then including you through a mind-fuck game. IF EPM is scum, then so are you. If he is not, I need to reread you, but you've contradicted something already, so I don't have high hopes for you, but we'll see.

You are assuming that your logic is absolutely correct. This is bothering me quite a bit. Also, you are saying that if EPM is scum, then Guderian is scum. If EPM is not scum, then Guderian looks scummy. How is this not lining up lynches?

By doing something like that, ASSUMING EPM is scum, he would probably include one of his buddies. Sorry EPM, but you aren't the most experienced of players, so if you were scum, you'd probably do something like that.

Ummm... I kinda assumed that his votes were for people he had played with before. So, what if he hadn't played with any of his scumbuddies before?

At the time when I asked the question, EPM was already under some fire. So I asked him to pick a name that appealed to him. And he picked Parama, so I chose you as his buddy, ASSUMING that he is scum. The reasoning for this is since he's already under fire, he would want to distance himself subconsciously from his partner, so he picked Parama, assuming that I'd associate EPM with him.

Lots of assumptions here. But this part is just bad logic, not a scumtell.

I'm really disliking the fact that after a couple pages with little not many people posting people are making decisions on who's scum and town already. I haven't played any games except from newbie games on this site but you can't automatically decide who's scum and who isn't...

...I have never been in a game where people make srsface scumlists on page 2. I really have no idea what to make of this.

...

......

I'll keep voting DH though.

This bothers me too. But what bothers me even more, is that both of these posts carried absolutely no information whatsoever.

Wow you guys made some quick judgments. Sorry I'm just now getting started, I thought this game wasn't supposed to start until today.

Personally, I think a 10-3-3 game sounds a bit unreasonable, especially if there's a serial killer too. That would mean we're looking at potentially 4 deaths every night/day (including lynchings), which could mean the game ends after night 2. A 12-2-2 game sounds reasonable if there's a serial killer. I suppose it could be possible that we've got a 11-3-2 game. Is there anything that says the mafia teams will be even? Either way, I think we're looking for an absolute maximum of 5 scum (although more likely 4) and a possible serial killer. So we're looking for a maximum of 6 lynches. Hopefully less.

Even with that many lynches, it is unlikely that the town could win without cross-killings between mafia, or without the serial killer taking out scum. But I think this means we might want to take our time on this day and make the best possible judgment. None of you have enough information yet to be certain about who you're lynching. We cannot afford to mislynch this early just because you think somebody said something semi scummy in their RVS.

[/b]Vote: Untrod Tripod.[/b] Because I don't want your stupid hint.

Aaaaand, another post containing no real info. Well, other than setup speculation anyways. Have any comment on the game itself? Also, what is this "stupid hint" you are referring to?

Am i missing something? Where is everyone getting the idea about 10-3-3, we haven't even confirmed ONE mafia member yet how can we know how many there are? Seriously we need to focus on getting the scum out and worry less about how many there are or were just going to not get anything done and when the deadline goes we have no lynch.

Am I missing something? Where are the comments about the actual players in the game that you should be posting?

I said "Guderian is scum if EPM is scum". So what does he have to worry about unless he has inside info? His reactions ARE scummy, especially when he's defending against something that he doesn't need to defend against.

If he is Town, he has to worry about the possibility that EPM is scum, and people believe your horrible logic.

is moot. It was a subconscious mind game.

I like Parama's suspicion of me and pegging Nacho as town. He's using his brain. But he's a very sharp scum player as well, so I have a slight eye on him, but I don't think we have much to worry about. Reads have not changed.

Maybe you are just dumb Town. Hmmm... I still think you are scummy enough to hold my vote for now.

I dunno
UT
ender

Tyler is scummy because he has a lot of filler, but not any substance. So much info is already on the table and he tosses it aside to talk set-up. I'm not ruling him as concrete scum quite yet.

You may want to take a look at the two players you listed under "I dunno". Specifically think about why they are under I dunno. Also, why did you single out Tyler for this behavior?

wow feel bad to be joining in three pages late but I totally missed the start of this one.

Mod, could we get a votecount please?

That'll help me catch up. At a glance, don't like EPM or DH but I do need to read more carefully before getting in depth. Also, I don't think it's likely that it would be 10-3-3, its unfair. I don't think a mod going for a balanced game would throw that at us. 12-2-2 is more likely, but there is no guarantee that the two mafia groups are the same size. Maybe one is larger, but less powered. All my role pm said was that there was two groups, no specifics.

Aaaand that makes four.

More to come

[nhammen]

[/b]Vote: Untrod Tripod.[/b] Because I don't want your stupid hint.

Also, what is this "stupid hint" you are referring to?

Oh my god! It was an avatar vote! Urgh! You seriously need to comment on the game.

[DemonHybrid]

Interesting comment. Because looking back, you used this nonserious vote to springboard into accusations against other players. And yet, by the time of this post at least, you have not made what you consider to be a serious vote. In fact, you are just piggybacking off of other players' accusations against EPM, while denying that your own accusations are serious. Wow!

Read ahead, especially the TL;DR that I presented Guderian.

I'm not understanding this section of this post. What do you mean by soft defending? Wouldn't he be soft-implying that he believes EPM is scum, whatever his alignment is?

Inadvertently.

This is what's going on:

I'm voting EPM, I think he's scummy. On the premise that EPM is scum, I believe Guderian to be scum. If EPM is town, I would need to reread.

Guderian freaks out about this and votes me for "suspecting him" when I did nothing of the case, but him doing that gives me reason to suspect EPM more. Why would he freak out to me saying "I think you are scum IF EPM is scum" if there was no connection?

You are assuming that your logic is absolutely correct. This is bothering me quite a bit. Also, you are saying that if EPM is scum, then Guderian is scum. If EPM is not scum, then Guderian looks scummy. How is this not lining up lynches?

I HAVE SAID THIS LIKE 5 TIMES. IF EPM IS SCUM, I BELIEVE GUDERIAN IS SCUM. IF EPM IS TOWN, I NEED TO REREAD GUDERIAN. 5 TIMES.

Ummm... I kinda assumed that his votes were for people he had played with before. So, what if he hadn't played with any of his scumbuddies before?

He probably wouldn't have made a post like that. Nacho summed it up quite nicely when he talked meta with EPM, look back.

Lots of assumptions here. But this part is just bad logic, not a scumtell.

Yeah, I would have said the same thing, had Guderian not went all "OMGWTFJIAOFJIOAGIOSGNIO" about my "If EPM is scum, Guderian is scum" logic. Guderian cemented it, not EPM.

If he is Town, he has to worry about the possibility that EPM is scum, and people believe your horrible logic.

No, he shouldn't be worried about that, because they have no connection. Even IF EPM turned out to be scum and Guderian is town, he would have to worry about proving his innocence at that point, not freak out about the future like he's doing now. I never said I fully suspected Guderian directly, only in regards to EPM. I never said I would vote Guderian today, and I probably won't. So what reasoning does he have to freak out like this?

Maybe you are just dumb Town. Hmmm... I still think you are scummy enough to hold my vote for now.

This sentence holds no purpose.

You may want to take a look at the two players you listed under "I dunno". Specifically think about why they are under I dunno. Also, why did you single out Tyler for this behavior?

Because they haven't been involved enough with the people I have reads on to have a clear read on them?

And did you not read why I suspected tyler, considering it's the SAME reason why you're suspecting him?

[DemonHybrid]

If you're wondering why him and not anyone else, at least everyone else has at least commented SOMETHING on someone involved in the game so far. Even UT and Ross. Tyler has not said a thing about anyone, instead preferring to comment on the setup.

[Kitoari]

Votecount #1 - The "I'm back on track" votecount.

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod, Guderian, nhammen (3)
evilpacman8 - Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to secure a lynch.

Replacements coming asap.

[evilpacman18]

I unvoted off of DH. My vote's not on anybody.

Fix'd along with another error.

[evilpacman18]

Also, I have no access tomorrow and on Friday I'm moving into my dorms. Starting college so I have no idea what my access will be like but I'll try to get on on my iPod some time this weekend.

[tylerjarvis]

I'm sorry I don't have time to analyze all the posts. From my read-throughs, It looks like none of you have come to any better conclusions than I have, so I actually don't feel too bad about it.

I'm at a conference for work. I'm able to check in occasionally, but I don't have time to analyze and dissect everyone's statements at the moment. Is this really how we're going to classify scummy behavior?

My read throughs leave me suspicious of Demon, because he's jumping on everything waaay too seriously. All the stuff about EPM's votes being suspicious... I don't see that. It seemed like a pretty innocent Random Vote to me.

The whole conversation so far has been pretty ridiculous. I feel like I'm standing in the middle of a Mexican stand off. Everybody's drawing their weapons and are making judgments on people based on tiny, tiny amounts of information. I think if everyone would take a step back and chill out a bit, we might be able to come to a more rational, informed decision. Because any scum/town lists are nothing but poor speculation at this point.

nhammen, I voted for Untrod Tripod just to throw my Random Vote out there. I'm actually going to go ahead and

Unvote

now. I still don't think I have enough information to label anyone as absolute scum, but I'd say the HoS is on Demon. I don't like his jumpy nature and snap judgments.

[nhammen]

@EPM: Nothing Nacho has done is even remotely scummy. Why would I even consider him a scum suspect? Deflect more.

Not saying consider him a scum suspect. Saying don't consider him obvtown.

...If he's not obvtown, then he SHOULD be considered a scum suspect. Everyone should be suspected until considered obvtown. You're either town or you aren't.

Oh my god! You really can't read! You essentially just agreed with EPM here, and at the same time argued with him! You know what? I am deciding that DH is just dumb Town.
UNVOTE:

On another note, this game is starting to make me quite annoyed. I should probably stop posting now, before I say something I will regret.

Exactly. He's not obvtown. Could be scum. Not saying he's likely to be, not saying I have a case on him or the evidence with which to build one. Just everyone's got him on their town lists. That's never good for town. If he is scum, he's already in position to coast his team to the win.

I believe the text you are looking for in the last two sentences is "That's never good for scum. If he is town then scum can not get rid of him through lynching, and must use a nightkill that they would rather have target a power role." Your comment in this quote is very wrong. And it indicates uneasiness about nacho being on multiple Town lists, which is something that can be a very clear scumtell.

I don't think anyone is closed to the idea that he could be scum. He just has not done one single scummy thing so far this game.

I believe you have fundamentally misunderstood the concept of a Town list. You do not put someone on a Town list because the haven't done anything scummy. You put them on a Town list because they have done something clearly protown. EPM is telling Parama that nacho has not done anything clearly protown (which I disagree with), so he should not be on a Town list. Obviously some players disagree,and would definitely not like nacho to be lynched.

One post and I'm labelled as having a lot of filler? You say we have so much info in the table, but I'm more inclined to believe most of the "information" is completely fabricated by overzealous players. We're two pages in and people are already building scum lists. Some people haven't even posted yet. Not only do we not have enough information to have a scumlist, the informatio we do have is based solely on overreactions.

We are not nearly as well informed as you're pretending we are.

And this type of response is NOT HELPING!

My anger is increasing, I need to stop soon, before I break my brain.

Yeah, not going to take your word for it. In this specific case, it means one of two things:

1. It IS OMGUS, which means you're lying
2. You're soft defending EPM

Both are scummy and punishable by death by hanging. However, if EPM flips town, I would need to reread; I address this coming up.

1. Debatable (which is surprising; most accusations of OMGUS are clearly false). OMGUS is returning a vote only because the person voted you. He used an argument that he believed justified this vote. This argument is that your argument justifying your vote is horrible play. I agree with that assessment, but don't see it as a reason to vote. Equating bad play and scumminess is a pet peeve of mine. The possibility for debate arises because his argument is centered on the reason for your vote of him, so it could be seen as OMGUS.
2. What does that even mean? Well, I already asked, so I will assume that there is some answer later.
3. You cannot just say something is scummy. You say that both 1 and 2 are scummy, but do not justify this. Why are these things scumtells? Use that brain and THINK rather than mindlessly using some acronym to attack someone.

--- With 2 scum teams, DH isn't particularly concerned with who is scum as long as he can implicate others in that persons fall. This reaffirms why I think youre scum. It may very well turn out that EPM is scum, but since it wont be from your faction, you dont mind who the next person you implicate and lynch is.

This is basically saying the exact same thing Parama did, only without the thought process behind it and with more of the sheeping. Bad. By the way, you haven't said a word about what Nacho and iamausername have said about your case on me.

You are correct, except for the fact that Guderian first mentioned this idea in post 47 and Parama mentioned it in post 54. Speaking of which, I really liked Parama's post 54. What did nacho and iamausername say about Guderian's case that you would like him to respond to. Because on isoing these players I see some rhetorical questions from nacho (oooh! what a scumtell!) and he had already answered iamausername's comment.

You know what? This is going to be the last post I respond to today.

If EPM were to flip scum, you would be my next vote. If he were to flip town, I would reread. This is a case of you putting words into my mouth and saying something that is completely fabricated,

you absolute hypocrite

.

Except for the fact that in post 46 you said that if EPM is not scum then Guderian has "contradicted something already, so I don't have high hopes for you". So, you HAVE said that if EPM is not scum, then Guderian looks scummy. Which looks like lining up lynches to me. But of course he is putting words into your mouth.

--- ok ender, got any thoughts. Is DH scummy, or am i crazy? What is EPM. Do you like parama?

Desperate ally searching

Yurch!
What in the-
How could you possibly-
You do realize that ender has posted even LESS comments than your suspect tyler?
These are a good series of questions.
What-
How?
I-
You
Yurch!
Yurgimiscuchin
yaoshoahdfophaldhfl;abdf;lba!$#%@&$*&(^&);ldbl;ahdfahsfhlASDGHFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU




VOTE: ender

[DemonHybrid]

@tylerjarvis, are you suspecting me only because I'm aggressive?

Reply to nhammen in a bit.

[tylerjarvis]

Demon, I'm suspecting you because you're making unnecessary and illogical judgments, and making connections that I honestly don't think someone would make if they weren't fishing.

Obviously I'm not completely sold on the idea yet, because i haven't voted for you. But come on, I know you can be much more rational than you've been in this game.

[DemonHybrid]

Demon, I'm suspecting you because you're making unnecessary and illogical judgments, and making connections that I honestly don't think someone would make if they weren't fishing.

Obviously I'm not completely sold on the idea yet, because i haven't voted for you. But come on, I know you can be much more rational than you've been in this game.

Your HoS clearly states that you're suspecting me for aggressive behavior. My logic is the SAME as Nacho's, so which is it?

[DemonHybrid]

Oh my god! You really can't read! You essentially just agreed with EPM here, and at the same time argued with him! You know what? I am deciding that DH is just dumb Town.
UNVOTE:

On another note, this game is starting to make me quite annoyed. I should probably stop posting now, before I say something I will regret.

First of all, this has no content and a weird unvote.

2nd of all, what about my post don't you get? EPM is fencesitting, saying "Don't say that nacho is obvtown, but don't consider him a scum suspect". I'm saying that everyone is either town or they are not town. If they are NOT obvtown, then they should be suspected, since that's how mafia works.

I believe you have fundamentally misunderstood the concept of a Town list. You do not put someone on a Town list because the haven't done anything scummy. You put them on a Town list because they have done something clearly protown. EPM is telling Parama that nacho has not done anything clearly protown (which I disagree with), so he should not be on a Town list. Obviously some players disagree,and would definitely not like nacho to be lynched.

You are arguing for the sake of arguing. By not doing anything scummy, all of his actions have been considered by me, and by others, to be pro-town. It doesn't need to be explicitly stated. Weak argument.

You cannot just say something is scummy. You say that both 1 and 2 are scummy, but do not justify this. Why are these things scumtells? Use that brain and THINK rather than mindlessly using some acronym to attack someone.

Both 1 and 2 are scummy. 1 is scummy not because of the OMGUS itself, but because he denied that it was OMGUS....okay, that's fine and good, but he's also denying that he's overreacting about my logic on EPM+Guderian, which would have to mean that he's OMGUSing.

2 is scummy because....well, he's overreacting. He's basically admitting that he's overreacting about my EPM+Guderian logic. I don't see what's so hard to get about this.

You are correct, except for the fact that Guderian first mentioned this idea in post 47 and Parama mentioned it in post 54. Speaking of which, I really liked Parama's post 54. What did nacho and iamausername say about Guderian's case that you would like him to respond to. Because on isoing these players I see some rhetorical questions from nacho (oooh! what a scumtell!) and he had already answered iamausername's comment.

Wrong again. Parama's logic insinuates that Guderian and EPM are on one team, while I'm on the other. Guderian insinuates that I'm scum and that there are two teams, with an unknown on my team and 2 unknowns on the other.

Except for the fact that in post 46 you said that if EPM is not scum then Guderian has "contradicted something already, so I don't have high hopes for you". So, you HAVE said that if EPM is not scum, then Guderian looks scummy. Which looks like lining up lynches to me. But of course he is putting words into your mouth.

Yes, he is putting words into my mouth, and so are you. I said I would re-read. I can say that his play hasn't been too stellar at the moment, but it's nothing to vote him over, and it's certainly not going to mean that I'm going to auto-vote him if EPM flips town, assuming EPM is lynched Day 1.

Yurch!
What in the-
How could you possibly-
You do realize that ender has posted even LESS comments than your suspect tyler?
These are a good series of questions.
What-
How?
I-
You
Yurch!
Yurgimiscuchin
yaoshoahdfophaldhfl;abdf;lba!$#%@&$*&(^&);ldbl;ahdfahsfhlASDGHFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Yeah, well answer me this. Why ender and why no one else?

[nhammen]

I think I was taking this a little too seriously and need to calm down a bit, so I will wait until tomorrow to finish. Currently at the top of page 4. Also, my vote for ender was for the obvious reason of having posted no content so far.