Mafia 123 - Outdoorsmen Mafia 2 GAME OVER

[DemonHybrid]

No, I mean, in regards to Guderian asking ender if he was crazy or not. Why did Guderian ask ender that and no one else?

[Empking]

Vote: Nacho

- He wasn't originally aware of there being two scum factions.

[DemonHybrid]

Vote: Nacho

- He wasn't originally aware of there being two scum factions.

Nothing that he talked about involved one scum faction total and you can't honestly prove that he had that in mind regardless. Can you contribute more?

[Mastin]

Read the game, but still waiting for that confirmation. >_<

[nhammen]

Rhetorical questions dismiss scumhunting and instead favors a bullying attitude over finding information, so that's why it's a scumtell. Notice that he didn't wait to find out whether I was serious or not; he just didn't care.

In my opinion, bullying is a playstyle tell and not a scumtell. But I can see why you believe this.

Calling people town in an effort to get them to like you is a common scum tactic to make it appear hard to lynch 'the nice guy'.

You are so horribly fabricating things now that are patently false its ridiculous.

Before I reply to this, I'd like you to be more specific on what you are referring to in this quote.

DH, I found a book about your situation

Image removed

hope this helps

hugs and kisses,
Untrod

This sorta looks like someone sitting on the side and enjoying others fight.

Why would he freak out to me saying "I think you are scum IF EPM is scum" if there was no connection?

Because he is worried about the possibility of EPM being scum? Maybe. Or maybe because what you were doing did appear to be an attack? Multiple possibilities.

You are assuming that your logic is absolutely correct. This is bothering me quite a bit. Also, you are saying that if EPM is scum, then Guderian is scum. If EPM is not scum, then Guderian looks scummy. How is this not lining up lynches?

Size removed

I HAVE SAID THIS LIKE 5 TIMES. IF EPM IS SCUM, I BELIEVE GUDERIAN IS SCUM. IF EPM IS TOWN, I NEED TO REREAD GUDERIAN. 5 TIMES.

But the quote I am replying to shows you saying SOMETHING DIFFERENT, and THAT is what I am referring to. You can keep saying that B is what you believe, but that doesn't change the fact that you said A. Although, scum will rarely act the way you have, so...

He probably wouldn't have made a post like that. Nacho summed it up quite nicely when he talked meta with EPM, look back.

Except I really don't see how that meta shows what nacho suggests it shows.

I never said I would vote Guderian today, and I probably won't. So what reasoning does he have to freak out like this?

This is one thing I am wondering about. Why wont you vote Guderian today? I would think that logically, with the viewpoint you have, he would make a better vote than EPM.

So, obviously people should only be concerned with the here and now, even if you have stated what your plans for the future are. You are saying that the townie thing to do was to ignore what you said???

You may want to take a look at the two players you listed under "I dunno". Specifically think about why they are under I dunno. Also, why did you single out Tyler for this behavior?

Because they haven't been involved enough with the people I have reads on to have a clear read on them?

And did you not read why I suspected tyler, considering it's the SAME reason why you're suspecting him?

If you're wondering why him and not anyone else, at least everyone else has at least commented SOMETHING on someone involved in the game so far. Even UT and Ross. Tyler has not said a thing about anyone, instead preferring to comment on the setup.

It is the same reason. What I'm pointing out is that there are FOUR players that have exhibited the same behavior, and yet, you are only going after one of them. Why? Also, UT has commenented on people? Where do you see this? Also, what about ender? I can see that Ross has made a comment about not liking EPM or DH (with no reason), so that is at least a little bit, but I'm not considering it as valid until he gives reasons. Those four players are all highly scummy to me, because they have all posted useless junk.

My read throughs leave me suspicious of Demon, because he's jumping on everything waaay too seriously. All the stuff about EPM's votes being suspicious... I don't see that. It seemed like a pretty innocent Random Vote to me.

The whole conversation so far has been pretty ridiculous. I feel like I'm standing in the middle of a Mexican stand off. Everybody's drawing their weapons and are making judgments on people based on tiny, tiny amounts of information. I think if everyone would take a step back and chill out a bit, we might be able to come to a more rational, informed decision. Because any scum/town lists are nothing but poor speculation at this point.

nhammen, I voted for Untrod Tripod just to throw my Random Vote out there. I'm actually going to go ahead and

Unvote

now. I still don't think I have enough information to label anyone as absolute scum, but I'd say the HoS is on Demon. I don't like his jumpy nature and snap judgments.

So you are essentially saying that bad play is equal to scummy play. I have stated before that this is a pet peeve of mine. Also, Day 1 is going to be speculation. That's how things happen. At least you have some comments here.

2nd of all, what about my post don't you get? EPM is fencesitting, saying "Don't say that nacho is obvtown, but don't consider him a scum suspect".

And what about my post don't you get? Because what I'm saying is that you completely misread his post. That is NOT what EPM was saying, and if you looked at his post in context, you would have realized this. What he was saying is that he wanted Parama to take nacho off of his (Parama's) Town list, because while he(nacho) hadn't done anything scummy, he(nacho) hasn't done anything townie either (in EPM's opinion). And your reply says that if he hasn't done anything Townie, then he shouldn't be on a town list, which is EXACTLY what EPM was saying. Please try understanding a conversation before replying to it.

Both 1 and 2 are scummy. 1 is scummy not because of the OMGUS itself, but because he denied that it was OMGUS....okay, that's fine and good, but he's also denying that he's overreacting about my logic on EPM+Guderian, which would have to mean that he's OMGUSing.

2 is scummy because....well, he's overreacting. He's basically admitting that he's overreacting about my EPM+Guderian logic. I don't see what's so hard to get about this.

Question: is overreacting scummy? If so, why are you voting for EPM rather than Guderian? If not, why are you using it as an argument?

You are correct, except for the fact that Guderian first mentioned this idea in post 47 and Parama mentioned it in post 54. Speaking of which, I really liked Parama's post 54. What did nacho and iamausername say about Guderian's case that you would like him to respond to. Because on isoing these players I see some rhetorical questions from nacho (oooh! what a scumtell!) and he had already answered iamausername's comment.

Wrong again. Parama's logic insinuates that Guderian and EPM are on one team, while I'm on the other. Guderian insinuates that I'm scum and that there are two teams, with an unknown on my team and 2 unknowns on the other.

So where is the sheeping you mentioned, if they are now two different ideas? Earlier, you said that Guderian is sheeping Parama, and when I point out that Guderian had the idea first, you now say that they were completely different ideas. So which is it?

Yes, he is putting words into my mouth, and so are you. I said I would re-read. I can say that his play hasn't been too stellar at the moment, but it's nothing to vote him over, and it's certainly not going to mean that I'm going to auto-vote him if EPM flips town, assuming EPM is lynched Day 1.

Your earlier quote heavily implied that you felt that it was something to vote him over. But I guess that whole thing was just a misunderstanding on everyones part?

Yeah, well answer me this. Why ender and why no one else?

No, I mean, in regards to Guderian asking ender if he was crazy or not. Why did Guderian ask ender that and no one else?

I dunno. I have a possible explanation, but I don't want to answer for Guderian and give him a way out if it was done with ill intentions.

Vote: Nacho

- He wasn't originally aware of there being two scum factions.

Interesting. I isoed nacho, and in his iso #6, you clearly see an example of this. I shall join you on the nacho train.
VOTE: nacho

[nhammen]

Although, I must say I have one problem with this thought concerning nacho, but I will wait until he responds to this new accusation before posting that problem.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm going to attempt to crop down the wall posts here, it's starting to grate on me and everyone else, surely.

But the quote I am replying to shows you saying SOMETHING DIFFERENT, and THAT is what I am referring to. You can keep saying that B is what you believe, but that doesn't change the fact that you said A. Although, scum will rarely act the way you have, so...

Nah, what I said as far as Guderian's current scumminess is "Guderian looks scummy now due to his overreaction, but I would still need to reread him if EPM flipped town, regardless of his current scumminess."

Except I really don't see how that meta shows what nacho suggests it shows.

He does have a slight point, though. He never started out with a ton of info, you have to realize that. EPM's careful reaction to it and Guderian's explosion to my follow-up kind of enforces it.

This is one thing I am wondering about. Why wont you vote Guderian today? I would think that logically, with the viewpoint you have, he would make a better vote than EPM.

I could vote Guderian, but I think that if that happens and he flips scum, this doesn't tell us a thing about EPM. I think that if EPM, who is scummy enough in my opinion, flips scum, this strengthens the case on Guderian. If he flips town, that means that I might have been off about something and am potentially avoiding lynching a townie.

So, obviously people should only be concerned with the here and now, even if you have stated what your plans for the future are. You are saying that the townie thing to do was to ignore what you said???

First, how is it bad that I was planning to lynch two scum in a row, ONLY IF the first person flipped scum? If EPM were to flip town, I would re-read to either prevent a townie death or to be absolutely sure that the case against Guderian holds enough water to still follow it. I'm not perfect, still far from an "amazing" mafia player.

It is the same reason. What I'm pointing out is that there are FOUR players that have exhibited the same behavior, and yet, you are only going after one of them. Why? Also, UT has commenented on people? Where do you see this? Also, what about ender? I can see that Ross has made a comment about not liking EPM or DH (with no reason), so that is at least a little bit, but I'm not considering it as valid until he gives reasons. Those four players are all highly scummy to me, because they have all posted useless junk.

Take a look at everyone's first "serious" post. UT says "I basically have no clue what is going on, but I'm comfortable with my DH vote" which is still a little bit. ender has commented on me, if only slightly. Tyler's first serious post contained nothing but setup speculation, and no names except for UT, who....you guessed it, joked around about setup speculation. It's not an arbitrary pick.

And what about my post don't you get? Because what I'm saying is that you completely misread his post. That is NOT what EPM was saying, and if you looked at his post in context, you would have realized this. What he was saying is that he wanted Parama to take nacho off of his (Parama's) Town list, because while he(nacho) hadn't done anything scummy, he(nacho) hasn't done anything townie either (in EPM's opinion). And your reply says that if he hasn't done anything Townie, then he shouldn't be on a town list, which is EXACTLY what EPM was saying. Please try understanding a conversation before replying to it.

Okay...

in my mind, and what most people should believe, is this:

If you are obvtown, then you should not be put on a scumlist.
If you are not obvtown, then you should not be exempt from being suspected, because it's mafia and anyone could be scum.

EPM is saying this:

Do not say Nacho is obvtown, but don't suspect him.

This is right in the middle, grey area.

For the record, I am not holding this against EPM, either. It's just something of note.

Question: is overreacting scummy? If so, why are you voting for EPM rather than Guderian? If not, why are you using it as an argument?

Yes, in this context.

See earlier as to why I'm voting EPM over Guderian.

As to why I'm using it as an argument, I'm looking to see if there really is a connection between the two. Why should Guderian overreact if EPM being scum would mean I suspect him? He shouldn't, at all, because EPM's alignment isn't revealed. Defending is okay, but not to this extent and not in the current context, not when it means his future potential survival when absolutely no information has been placed on the table. It is scummy at the moment, but all that could change; I'd rather EPM flip first before I make a 100% decision on Guderian.

So where is the sheeping you mentioned, if they are now two different ideas? Earlier, you said that Guderian is sheeping Parama, and when I point out that Guderian had the idea first, you now say that they were completely different ideas. So which is it?

Guderian states idea #1. (me on one team, ??? as the other scum)
Parama states idea #2 (me on one team, Guderian on the other)
Guderian parrots idea #2 (Parama's onto something, maybe DH is on one team and someone he suspects is on the other, namely EPM), you know, the part that you said I was correct about.

Your earlier quote heavily implied that you felt that it was something to vote him over. But I guess that whole thing was just a misunderstanding on everyones part?

See, that's what happens when you run on "implications" when not in RVS. Yes, misunderstandings.

I never thought, stated nor planned that I would vote Guderian today.

Lets crop down the wall posts. Too much to read, giving everyone a headache.

[Empking]

Vote: Nacho

- He wasn't originally aware of there being two scum factions.

Nothing that he talked about involved one scum faction total and you can't honestly prove that he had that in mind regardless. Can you contribute more?

OK you defending Nacho with something crazy and obviously false like "Nothing that he talked about involved one scum faction total" isn't also scummy.

[DemonHybrid]

Point out where he assumed there was only one scum faction then.

[Guderian]

V/LA until this Saturday afternoon, and maybe even sunday. Was unexpected, and I didn't plan for it at all. Will get back in as soon as I possibly can. Thank you.

-Gud

[Parama]

I'm going to attempt to crop down the wall posts here, it's starting to grate on me and everyone else, surely.

EVERYONE ON THE SITE NEEDS TO FOLLOW SUIT.

I mean, dear god. Wallposts SUCK. Stop spamming them.
/rant

I also have nothing else to say. I think Emp's attack on Nacho is retarded but I don't think it can be taken as anything but a nulltell because I can understand where he'd be coming from but disagree with the logic 100%.

[werewolf555]

personally, I believe that there is no way to prove it either way, but as you said, the logic is sound.

[Empking]

DH: Nhammed just said it but...

...and another townie has joined the fray. Noticed how he subtly brings my attention to something I've forgotten in my lists (SK possibilities). Meaning that Parama isn't cleared yet because he is only townie due to interactions with EPM-scum. Guderian stays in the scum section, though.

TOWN:
Nachomamma8
DemonHybrid
Untrod Tripod

NOT SCUM:
Parama

SCUM:
evilpacman18
Guderian

Excellent catch, good sir.

[Calcifer]

Apparently, I got the go-ahead on this account.

I do have a post, but not on my current computer, and I have to leave, right now. I'll get around to it.

-Mastin

[Kitoari]

Calcifer replaces Nachomamma8, since it is now activated.

Ender241 has requested replacement.

[Calcifer]

TOWN:
Nachomamma8
DemonHybrid
Untrod Tripod
iamusername
Parama
tylerjarvis
Empking
nhammen

NOT SCUM:

SCUM:
evilpacman18
Guderian
ender
RossWilliam
werewolf

Parama graduates to town level! Congratulations, Parama!

Updating the list but posting tomorrow.

[iamausername]

Vote: Nacho

- He wasn't originally aware of there being two scum factions.

I don't think this is a scum tell. I would be extremely surprised if every town player had noticed the information contained in their role PM before it was explicitly pointed out in the thread. I guess it makes him slightly more likely to be scum than average, all other things being equal, but.

Conversely, someone who clearly was aware of there being two scum factions without it being pointed out is quite a lot more likely to be town, which is why any suspicion of Guderian is totally whack right now. It think it's pretty likely that there are townies who didn't notice it, but highly unlikely that there are scum who DID notice.

Also totally whack: DH vociferously jumping to Nacho's defence with abject lies. Why not let Nacho fight his own battles, DH?

VOTE: Untrod Tripod
Please enjoy this instructional video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V38hAK0C_g

[RossWilliam]

Why did you vote Untrod Tripod, iama? You didn't even mention his name in your post.

[Calcifer]

Alright, so I'm available. These are my thoughts so far. (Warning: A bit long, but hey, if I do my job right, it shouldn't be too bad. )

Right, so I figure if I get to play the game as the Hydra, I should write my notes down, because it might be a while before I actually get to play and I don't want to forget.

To answer Guderian, if I get to play, it'll be as a Hydra with Nacho. I don't have a PM as I am writing this, but that'll come, eventually. (An edit: obviously, since I've started playing, now, I have it, but didn't at the time.)

Spoiler: about the two faction debate...

First of all, the Sample PM clearly shows that, yes, there are two mafia factions.

But honestly? That Sample Role PM is public. Lack of proper reading is a null tell. (Actually, in my experience, scum tend to read posts even closer, but not enough for it to be a town tell. Just enough that it certainly is NOT something I see as suspicious.)

I mean, honestly, think about it:
Who reads the win conditions? Well, I know *I* do, personally, but a lot of people just assume, "blah, blah, eliminate all non-town factions, yadda, yadda, skip that."

In my opinion, anyway. I'll need to check how many people have done so, but if memory serves, it's around half a dozen--are all of them scum? Almost certainly not. It's null.

To start, werewolf555, Azelf, tylerjarvisl, 4computer, RossWilliam, and ender241, I'd like to know previous games by you people. The rest of the list is familiar to me, but your names are not. Preferably your most recent games as town and scum (if you have any). I like to get a feel for the players on Meta. (I've concluded it is something best done earlier in the game, not later.) You know, get a general feel for your playstyle, see what player type you are, that kind of thing.

Anyway, as I mention in a sidenote in my scumhunting guide, I firmly believe that everything you need to find all the scum is theoretically in the first five pages of the game. Which we're in, by the way. So, I paid close attention, particularly to pages 2-3.

Between Demon, Evil, Nacho/Myself (I suppose), Guderian, and Parama...
...There are at least two scum. Before I paid attention to the 'two scumteams' phrase (that was brought up on pages 3-4, when I was reading 2-3), my gut was SCREAMING, "BUSSING! BUSSING! I SMELL BUSSING!" So, they might not be bussing (or maybe they are), but they certainly are still scum. Well, 2 of them are, anyway.

The obvious choice is Demon and Guderian, 1 scum in them, but I'm not fully convinced that the other is town. Just seems, well, too easy.

In my completely-and-totally-unbiased-opinion, Nacho looked town.

Demon also LOOKED town, logically, but my gut is screaming at me, "DEMON IS SCUM!" (I hate how often I use my gut early on, but it can prove to be rather accurate.)

I agree that UT is town, though if Demon flips scum, I'll have an eye on UT. (Call it gut. Like I said, I smelled bussing.)

Iamausername's vote is fairly weak. On a good player, and I agree that Nacho probably got it right, but I'm not convinced iamausername is sincere.

(That said, [like Nacho's opinion, apparently] it didn't scream from my gut, "BUSSING!" I wouldn't be surprised to see iamausername as scum on a different scumteam from evil if both/either evil/Guderian are scum as I believe.)

This post unnerves me. It might just be iamausername in general, though. My reads on him in the only other game I've played with him were...shall we say...quite......off. (Want a link? Well...read it and laugh at how much I suck. Going against iamausername and Yosarian2 at the same time, needless to say, was a BAD idea. )

I must be tunneling already. This post looks like town by logic, but my gut is telling me that it's off. Again. >_<

Parama's post here makes me think he is town. My gut isn't acting up at all, and the logic behind it seems strong.

Tyler looks town for this. Not sure why, but he does. (If you want to--though I won't, because I think it's more--you can call it gut, again. There's something in there which is town. It seems like more than gut, but I can't figure it out. Must be one of those subtle things.)

Ender feels neutral to me, mostly, but I'm willing to give him a pass as town.

I like the idea of Ross being town, due to his post here--he doesn't like Evil or Demon, despite them going against each other, something I also didn't like. That kind of thinking makes me believe he's solidly town.

Nhammen looks town, to me. Don't like his ender vote in 94 (several people had not given content--if memory serves--and I dislike how he singled out ender of them), but otherwise, he's not really suspicious. UT continues to look town (particularly for his post here), though this looks like passive coaching.

Demon constantly referring to other players doing the same exact tactic reads as highly suspicious to me. Let's just say I have a good reason for thinking that. Not to mention, the heavy buddying to Nacho, who shares my playerslot if you actually see this.

---

Let's see...
Summary from my first read:
-I have no werewolf read. I don't think he gave me anything to use.

Werewolf: post more content

, so I can improve my read on you.
-Parama is town.
-Azelf I have no read on.

Azelf: see werewolf

.
-chk is the same story.

chk: look above

.
-Tyler is town. It's something subtle, which I can't name, yet, but give me time, and I'll figure it out. It's not just gut.
-evil reads as scum.
-nhammen looks town.
-4computer...who is this, again? (

*cough, cough*

)
-Ross is town.
-ender (who is being replaced) was neutral, leaning town, before. I'm eagerly awaiting the replacement.
-Empking's town, from what I've seen of him.
-iamausername LOOKS like town in his posts. I've looked at the surface meaning of his words, and found nothing suspicious in them. I need to dig deeper. My gut seriously did not like him. I need to see the meaning behind his words to get a better read. He's definitely leaning scum, to me.
-Guderian is another person who looks like they came down with a serious case of scum, but due to his V/LA, I'm willing to let him be for now.
-UT looks town, but if Demon is scum, I think UT is as well.
-Demon's posts look town, but he looks like he's bussing to my gut.

*So, The scum are within Evil, Guderian, iamausername, UT, and Demon, plus one of my neutrals, most likely. That's my first impression. (Though, again, I'll be rereading the thread several times to make sure.)
*My neutrals are Azelf, werewolf, chk, 4computer, and ender, though ender is leaning town.
*It also figures that the remaining players are therefore on my town list: Parama, Tyler, nhammen, Ross, and Empking.

What does all of this mean?
I like our current vote, which last I knew was on Evil.

/End entry post. Hopefully, they'll be shorter, after this.

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

Missed ender replacing out. He's town.

tyler's town for us saying that we're rushing too much and then doing something about it and trying to move back to the RVS. It's a misguided attempt to help the town, but it's still an attempt to help the town.

RossWilliam is scum for "feeling bad for missing three pages". Come on, really? Then there's the whole "Well, MY role PM says that there were two scum teams but it didn't give the specifics" which is bad and scummy and bad.

nhammen is town for all of that vote-hopping. He's been very open about them, too; it's not very often that town plays so openly.

Vote: Nacho

- He wasn't originally aware of there being two scum factions.

I wasn't. Point being?

[Calcifer]

WEREWOLF!

Werewolf is scum for being so damn under the radar, as demonstrated by me forgetting who he was. He's also not reading the game AT ALL, but still trying to act like he's contributing. Notice:

I think Emp's attack on Nacho is retarded but I don't think it can be taken as anything but a nulltell because I can understand where he'd be coming from but

disagree with the logic 100%.

personally, I believe that there is no way to prove it either way, but

as you said, the logic is sound

.

done and done

[Calcifer]

@EPM:
I retract the meta point.

Your question was so broken. What was the correct answer?

Either name without reasoning would've been fine. Refusing to answer? Also fine.

See but if I didn't add a reason, the outcome would've been the same (me and whoever I don't pick are scum) AND I would have been forced into saying why I picked the name when there wasn't even supposed to be a why in the first place:

Why not just pick a name? It would've been more honest, after all. You shouldn't have been afraid of being prodded for a why because then you could just say "I don't know", truthfully. Assigning reasons in fear of being questioned is just scummy.

You sound just like Fate

I'm half tempted to unvote you just for this <3
Unfortunately, you're still scum

[Calcifer]

Hmm...
*Agree with Ender/Tyler/Nhammen.
*Disagree with Ross. He's solidly town, to me.

I like the idea of Ross being town, due to his post here--he doesn't like Evil or Demon, despite them going against each other, something I also didn't like. That kind of thinking makes me believe he's solidly town.

*Simply 'cause I play Werewolf on another forum, I'll accept Werewolf as being scum. (AKA, will look into.)

-Mastin.

[Empking]

Vote: Nacho

- He wasn't originally aware of there being two scum factions.

I wasn't. Point being?

Town would have been. Would you say that you knew and later forgot or that you never knew at all? What do you think of DH's defence of you?

[werewolf555]

WEREWOLF!

Werewolf is scum for being so damn under the radar, as demonstrated by me forgetting who he was.

That has nothing to do with me, you can blame yourself for your bad memory.

He's also not reading the game AT ALL

Are you blaming me because I haven't had much time to contribute to the game?

, but still trying to act like he's contributing.

Perhaps the fact that I have posted 3, now 4 times, could be why you suspect me as scum. Therefore, I will try to post more often.