Mini 1096 - Seinfeld Mafia (Game Over)

[charter]

I think you were right about that UT. You should have argued about how Haschel was faking his claim, therefore scum. Of course he's going to try and argue through you, he won't just lay down and say "yeah, you caught me faking". You weren't vocal enough about it. I think if I was town, I would definitely have followed that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

After reading the Scum QT I have to say the concept that scum had it rough I find a little bit of a stretch.

Given Town only had two useful PRs (mine and Untrods) the presence of a Role-blocker was powerful. Additionally George's ability to take out ANY player at any time which also worked as a bomb is not to be taken lightly.

And don't underestimate the power having 4 scum off the bat provides. The lack of a NK is daunting but Town absolutely needed any sort of flip of scum to really make solid relational tells. Also Day 1 a scum lynch would require 87.5% of the Town's votes with no scum bussing. Getting 87.5% of uniformed majority players to work in a unified manner is a pretty large task.

Not to say Scum didn't do a great job. You did. And Town did everything in its power to help you along, myself included.

[LimMePls]

^^agree with this.

Also Happy Scumday MOI!

[LimMePls]

And don't underestimate the power having 4 scum off the bat provides. The lack of a NK is daunting but Town absolutely needed any sort of flip of scum to really make solid relational tells. Also Day 1 a scum lynch would require 87.5% of the Town's votes with no scum bussing. Getting 87.5% of uniformed majority players to work in a unified manner is a pretty large task.

To expound on 652, this is the part in particular that is spot on. IMO D1 mislynch in this game (which is likely due to 87.5%) pretty much sealed the deal. It steamrolled much to quickly. On the flip side, D1 scum-lynch might have actually done the exact opposite.

In short, I think the setup is swingy.

[The Fonz]

The flip side of so many scum is you're statistically more likely to manage to get a wagon on scum early, and then scum is put in a really awkward position where it has to bus etc. It just so happens in this game there was no serious wagon on scum until day four.

Honestly, I think if the setup was played more (and I've nommed vanilla 8:4 for the open queue with this in mind) these kind of games will tend to either end up in a scum sweep, or a town win, because if town can get that first scum lynch, they've then got a ton of mislynches in which to find the scum. I mean, seriously, we had three mislynches, none of which required all the scum votes, and we were still left relying on one of the biggest gambits in the history of the site to win the game. As I said, if we hadn't gambitted, we may very well have actually lost this game from LyLo.

[Kdub]

I have mixed feelings on the game balance. I really think that if the town had even gotten one scum lynch (on someone other than Haschel), they had a chance to turn things around and make it interesting, although the scum probably still would have won since they were playing a better game overall. In that sense, LMP is right that the game is somewhat swingy since the early days are quite important. As I said, there were not a whole lot of nightless games that I could go back and look at to see how things worked out.

I'd be interested to see the results of a large sample of vanilla nightless games just to see how balanced it actually is. I think the way to balance it is to either add townies if scum wins too often, or give the scum a certain number of vengeful kills if town wins too often (which would make it no longer "vanilla" nightless, but whatever).

[The Fonz]

I think it may actually be balanced, with the caveat that 'balanced' means 'a ton more town-friendly than 90% of MS.net games at the moment.'

[Kdub]

Maybe a good way to reduce the swingyness of the vanilla nightless setup is to have a 14-player game with 10 town vs. 4 scum, but all the scum have a vengeful kill. That gives the town a fixed number of 5 mislynches to play with, instead of a variable number from 3-6 depending on how successful they are.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I would play a game like that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Agreed, that's an interesting set-up.

[Katsuki]

/pre-in if you run that game.

[Kdub]

I'll consider the win percentages to see if that's actually a balanced game. I don't plan to run it myself, but I'll suggest it as an open setup after thinking about it a bit more.

[The Fonz]

That's kinda like Treestump, when scum only gets to kill when a scum is lynched.

[Kdub]

Hmm...I'm not aware of that setup. I guess it's been tried before then.

[hasdgfas]

Fin