Mafiascum.net

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:03 am**

I wasn't sure whether to put this here or Site Ideas...

As a mod who likes creative writing, I find the rule requiring normals to be mafia/werewolf flavored to be too restrictive. I'm not saying that we should allow themes (books, movies, etc) in the normal forum or expand the

amount

of flavor that's typical there, but I'd really like more leeway in storytelling. If the consensus is that flavor in normals shouldn't be game relevant, then I really don't understand why it needs to be so strictly limited. Here's some examples...

A story about 12 treasure hunters in which three of them have made a pact to kill off the others and split the loot. The tale of a New England town infiltrated by a coven of witches. The story of a deep-space crew being attacked by doppleganger aliens. A game about an army recon team trying to find the traitors in their midst. Etcetera. Keep in mind that I'm only talking about lynch/death scene flavor and

maybe

generic role names (with measures taken to prevent them from affecting the game). I'm strictly suggesting original material, not themes based on pop-/sub-culture.

One of the reasons I was inspired to ask about this is that the /invitationals and marathon days have shown that people want to run games in that middle ground, but that there isn't really a place for it on our current forums. I think that giving mods more creative leeway will improve the reading experience without any drawbacks. Thoughts?

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:33 am**

Witch Hunt is actually a classic mafia flavour I was surprised you guys don`t consider `normal`when I arrived.

Also, Thing.

Not a mod yet but in games I`ve modded elsewhere I find the more freedom I have with the story the more engaging I can make the game... which leads to lower dropout rates and MORE FUN. That`s the goal of mafia, isn`t itÉ

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:02 am**

I agree with Ythill. Tbh, I probably broke the rules regarding flavor in my open game and large normal.

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:11 am**

i broke the flavor rules for my first open game. Sorry.

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:21 am**

Completely agreed. As long as it's not based on anything, and it's made clear that flavour is for entertainment only, it shouldn't be a rule.

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:25 am**

Haylen wrote:I agree with Ythill.

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:43 am**

RayFrost wrote:
Haylen wrote:I agree with Ythill.

The list mod will just have to keep a closer eye on greener mods to ensure they get the difference.

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:50 am**

I've mentioned it before, but dropped it because I had sort of a "if it ain't broke" feeling: The breakdown between Normals and Themes is misleading and does not represent the actual division of games that I think most would agree is ideal.

The reason for not having flavor in normal games is because we don't want people to feel like they need to pay attention to it for game purposes. If you're just including a good, interesting story that can have no affect on the actual game-play, I'd actually encourage that impulse.

The problem mostly comes when people write flavor that has an affect on game play. Either they give some hints in the flip text, they give players roles with information that might later clear or implicate someone else, etc.

It's my opinion that most who like mafia games being flavorless don't do it because they like the flavor of mafia or werewolf (both of which, as we noted in that flavor problem thread, are pretty shallow and unrewarding) but because they don't particularly want to have to read whatever banal flavor text the mod is including for guidance on the game.

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:32 am**

Rules:

.
.
.
10) Game flavor is written for entertainment purposes only. It has no affect on the game. Players are free to not read the flavor and scroll to the bottom to see who died.

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:35 am**

I'm open to expanding this somewhat - I am well aware that our current policy can be too restrictive on good mods. That said, there's a reason it's so restrictive (the not-so-good mods). We've had numerous problems in the past with mods thinking that their pet flavor is harmless, when in reality it's game breaking (or just incredibly stupid) - and that's not something we can always catch, even with carefully constructed rules and "normal" reviewers. Thus, we err on the side of gameplay.

(There's also the "Hey! I signed up for a normal game, and I am totally offended by the mod's treatment of witches! If this is normal on this site, I'm leaving!" type issue; the "The mod is spending so much time on flavor that no one else finds interesting that he/she isn't giving the actual gameplay enough attention" issue... probably some others that I am forgetting.)

Anyway, if you guys want to take a stab at putting together a policy in this direction, I will certainly consider it. Some guidelines might be:

Newbie Games are off-limits for anything but Mafia flavor. A user's first experience with this site should not be Fuwochichi vs. the Sandwich Army.
There have to be boundaries, and they need to be reasonably well defined - original material based in a common and well-known genre might be ok; Fuwochichi vs. the Sandwich Army, not so much.
All flavor should be public (no role PM flavor that could be claimed, for example). That would have to include role names, and I'm not sure whether it would make more sense to say "no flavor in roles, period" or have the option of role name flavor if it's open (i.e. the OP/rules post lists "Alien = Mafia, Space Explorer = Townie, etc." for all possible roles).
At the least, open role PMs should be "translated" into normal flavor - players shouldn't need to parse your treasure hunt flavor to figure out what their role actually does. Having two sets of role PMs isn't particularly elegant or aesthetically pleasing, though.

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:50 am**

When I start modding on my own, I'm really hoping that I will be able to write flavors like news reports. Would that be considered normal flavor?

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:58 am**

Where can I find the current rules on flavor in normals?

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:25 am**

Super Smash Bros. Fan wrote:When I start modding on my own, I'm really hoping that I will be able to write flavors like news reports. Would that be considered normal flavor?

As long as it's about Mafia/Werewolves, yes. (IANAM)

quadz08 wrote:Where can I find the current rules on flavor in normals?

Normal Game, though it's slightly dated.

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:48 am**

mith wrote:Newbie Games are off-limits for anything but Mafia flavor. A user's first experience with this site should not be Fuwochichi vs. the Sandwich Army.

Agreed, but do you mean Mafia/Werewolf, or only the mob? Lots of people are introduced to the game through Are You A Werewolf?

mith wrote:There have to be boundaries, and they need to be reasonably well defined - original material based in a common and well-known genre might be ok; Fuwochichi vs. the Sandwich Army, not so much.

I'm hesitant on this one. For instance, is Alien Imposters (The Thing, V, Body Snatchers, etc) a common-and-well-known genre? I'd say yes, but it veers awfully close to encouraging weirdnesses in roles. Maybe we start with one or two additional variants on Infiltrators that could be explicitly used, and expand as needed/approved. The other one that's "out there in the wild" as a card game is Do You Worship Cthulhu?, though it's pretty rarely used I think.

mith wrote:All flavor should be public (no role PM flavor that could be claimed, for example). That would have to include role names, and I'm not sure whether it would make more sense to say "no flavor in roles, period" or have the option of role name flavor if it's open (i.e. the OP/rules post lists "Alien = Mafia, Space Explorer = Townie, etc." for all possible roles).

At the least, open role PMs should be "translated" into normal flavor - players shouldn't need to parse your treasure hunt flavor to figure out what their role actually does. Having two sets of role PMs isn't particularly elegant or aesthetically pleasing, though.

Mod translation of role/PM on request or in the first posts seems sufficient to me. "No flavor in roles" is really about no game-breaking/twisting flavor in roles, which is a separate problem. I love getting a Mafia PM with a 'backstory' for my Family/Werewolf Clan; drops me right into the mood.

An additional problem with 'translating' roles would be fakeclaims; the mod would have to be careful to say "if the claim is genuine, then that role would be equivalent to a Roleblocker", which I'm not thrilled about.

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:50 am**

Aranneas wrote:Witch Hunt is actually a classic mafia flavour I was surprised you guys don't consider 'normal' when I arrived.

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:55 am**

I do votecount-by-votecount flavor outside of Newbie games. abNormal?

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:00 am**

Ythill wrote: A story about 12 treasure hunters in which three of them have made a pact to kill off the others and split the loot. The tale of a New England town infiltrated by a coven of witches. The story of a deep-space crew being attacked by doppleganger aliens. A game about an army recon team trying to find the traitors in their midst. Etcetera. Keep in mind that I'm only talking about lynch/death scene flavor and maybe generic role names (with measures taken to prevent them from affecting the game). I'm strictly suggesting original material, not themes based on pop-/sub-culture.

I love me some flavor. I totally agree with this part here. I plan on running my first Open in a Bakery scenario, (somewhat of an inside joke, read my wiki if you want to know), without changing roles or much wording.
This is also the reason that I plan to mod mostly theme games, because I love good flavor and normal games are too... 'normal' at times. >_>

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:21 am**

Lots of people are introduced to the game through Are You A Werewolf?

Sure; but this is mafiascum, not werewolfscum, and I think it's reasonable to limit our introductory games to our most common flavor.

I'm hesitant on this one.

Indeed, this is part of the reason I've never moved it beyond Mafia/Werewolf flavor before now... the boundary between "suitable flavor" and "too wacky" is fuzzy. Definitely open to suggestions.

"No flavor in roles" is really about no game-breaking/twisting flavor in roles, which is a separate problem.

That's the thing - *all* flavor in roles is potentially game-twisting, unless it's public (or unless inelegant rules are added, like "you can't claim flavor" - and those cause as many problems as they fix). Even something as simple as pasted on role name (e.g. "I'm a Army Communications Specialist (Daytalking Mason)") leads to both second-guessing-the-mod (and yes, there is already some of that in closed games anyway; but there's a distinction between "guessing what roles/mechanics/gameplay elements the mod included" and "guessing what name the mod gave to a role") and to the scum needing to come up with reasonable sounding names given the flavor and mod.

(Mafia backstory is less of an issue; it's extremely uncommon for someone to want to strategically claim scum in a game, and even less common that anyone would doubt such a claim.)

Re: translating, I was strictly talking about Open games there. (That is, I don't think it would necessarily affect gameplay to allow flavored PMs in Open games, but I do think it could lead to confusion, or annoyance on the part of those who want to ignore the flavor, so providing a translated version of the PM would be an inelegant option to solve that.)

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:26 am**

mith wrote: Re: translating, I was strictly talking about Open games there. (That is, I don't think it would necessarily affect gameplay to allow flavored PMs in Open games, but I do think it could lead to confusion, or annoyance on the part of those who want to ignore the flavor, so providing a translated version of the PM would be an inelegant option to solve that.)

While this wasn't meant for me, I'll keep it in mind.

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:50 am**

I think the PM should just have the role name in plain text, but any added backstory is fine. Just call a roleblocker a roleblocker and a cop a cop somewhere in bold as the actual role name, at least in closed setups.

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:54 am**

Well, how about such flavour being allowed if:
- Role PMs are completely flavourless, to avoid any hint of confusion.
- No flavour can be used when describing deaths - ie, people can only be described as being 'Killed' or 'Lynched' to avoid any "well, the flavour said he was stabbed, so was it a SK" kind of debate.

I definitely agree flavour for newbies should be Mafia only, with werewolf at a push. That's it.

As for the type of flavour for normals... I think it's quite a good idea starting simple and expanding the boundaries as required / if we feel it's OK.

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:03 am**

mith wrote:
Lots of people are introduced to the game through Are You A Werewolf?
Sure; but this is mafiascum, not werewolfscum, and I think it's reasonable to limit our introductory games to our most common flavor.

Fair point.

mith wrote:That's the thing - *all* flavor in roles is potentially game-twisting, unless it's public (or unless inelegant rules are added, like "you can't claim flavor" - and those cause as many problems as they fix).

True, but that's why I like the new trend toward more modular role PMs:

The Mod of a non-existent game wrote:
Working the streets isn't easy, but times are tough and the money's good, if at times risky. Never as risky as it now, though, with the mob moving into town and making even a borderline occupation like yours a potential death sentence.

Role Name:
Roleblocker

Night Actions:
Each game Night you may PM me a player's name that you wish to stop from performing any/all night actions. You are not required to take action on any given Night. You will not be told whether or not your action succeeds.

Yes, that confirms it's a Mafia game and not a Werewolf game, but it doesn't preclude an SK or second Mafia Faction, or even a Vigilante.

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:33 am**

molestargazer wrote:Well, how about such flavour being allowed if:
- Role PMs are completely flavourless, to avoid any hint of confusion.
- No flavour can be used when describing deaths - ie, people can only be described as being 'Killed' or 'Lynched' to avoid any "well, the flavour said he was stabbed, so was it a SK" kind of debate.

I definitely agree flavour for newbies should be Mafia only, with werewolf at a push. That's it.

As for the type of flavour for normals... I think it's quite a good idea starting simple and expanding the boundaries as required / if we feel it's OK.

I demand the use of "smited" whenever someone gets modkilled >=(

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:34 am**

Question: Am I allowed to reference an ongoing game in this thread, for purposes of looking at flavor only?

Posted: **Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:35 am**

Flay: Right, but modular role PMs don't stop flavor claiming from twisting the game, at least not on their own. Which isn't to say there aren't ways to prevent it, but if we're going to allow it in normal games we need to at least provide inexperienced mods (and even experienced mods are sometimes caught by something unexpected) with the tools to keep their flavor from getting in the way of the game.

The two main ways I've seen it done are "you can't claim flavor" - which is annoying, and usually prompts players to try to edge up to the line without crossing it - and "if you want to fake claim, I'll write you fake flavor", which has worked well for some mods but I could see potential problems there as well (I don't know that players have ever really tested that method).

Mafiascum.net

More Leeway for Normal Flavor

More Leeway for Normal Flavor