Mini 1009 ÔÇô Popularity mafia (Game over - Mafia wins)

[tumescence]

God... 3 pages already?

Vote count

(12 players alive = 7 to lynch before deadline)

(2) Blackberry – Korts, Thief
(2) Thief - eljcko, Blackberry
(2) Iron Man - ChannelDelibird, Simenon
(1) mothrax - scotmany12
(1) Scotmany12 – mothrax
(1) Cuethlachtli - Ectomancer

Not voting: Cuethlachtli, Iron Man, tumescence

:arrow: Day 1 – (Deadline is August 10)

[Ectomancer]

Well to be fair, half of the last page was Cuet whining that "Ecto isn't being fair".

[tumescence]

I was debating with myself whether to reveal my townreads (people who I see as townie). See, this would make it more likely that my townreads get shot at during the nighttime, and hence make the coming days, assuming I survive, more difficult for me.

I've decided to share what I'm thinking mainly in order to promote discussion, and also because I'm confident I can get more townreads as the game progresses, so it doesn't do much harm if I out my reads now.

I've got a strong townread on mothrax, on the basis of his post #16:

I feel like my being defensive of BB is going to cause trouble later in the game,

especially if by some weird chance he flips scum,

Also, I have a slight townread on Blackberry based on his post #29... just a gut feeling based on the openness of his post.

Will reread soon and post more.

[tumescence]

EDIT: people whom* I see as townie

[Thief]

Mothrax being afraid of being seen as defending scum later on is not a towntell. Scum often ask that they not be viewed as "defending" a certain player, as they don't want connections being drawn.

[Thief]

Someone may have asked why I find Blackberry suspicious. There is plenty of other cases on him right now, and his play before my vote has been discussed (such as his awkward interaction with Morthrax's comment). I'll comment on his most recent move:

He votes me for not being genuine. The fact that he misreps my Iron Man vote as genuine (when it was in fact not, but merely a reaction test for Ecto who has recent experience with that scumtell, and for others by quickly changing it). Also the way he called my vote on him ingenious appears to me as if he wants to discourage my vote, and encourage me to switch back to Iron Man (who BB would know as town with scum knowledge).

C) Why would someone pretend not to see a second page? What would a mafia or town, or anyone, gain from pretending not to read a page? Iron Man clearly noticed his mistake right away and made another post about what he missed

^If these are the questions you want me to answer than they are weak questions, as my vote is no longer on Iron Man. Also scum could potentially gain from pretending not to read a page (as I said a scum was caught this way in another game) by appearing "careless" like a townie. Also I'm not going to answer what town would gain for not pretending because town

wouldn't

pretend, that's my whole point.

[Ectomancer]

You know I'm in that game and I still don't see that his "I missed a page" comment was the "SCUMTELL" that pointed him out. Point of fact is, I'm still not certain why he stood out for others. But seriously, enough with the game comments while that one is still going.

[Blackberry]

Mothrax being afraid of being seen as defending scum later on is not a towntell. Scum often ask that they not be viewed as "defending" a certain player, as they don't want connections being drawn.

Did anyone ask that they not be viewed as "defending" a certain player?

Someone may have asked why I find Blackberry suspicious. There is plenty of other cases on him right now, and his play before my vote has been discussed (such as his awkward interaction with Morthrax's comment). I'll comment on his most recent move:

There's are cases on me? Please elaborate what case you see agains't me.

He votes me for not being genuine. The fact that he misreps my Iron Man vote as genuine (

when it was in fact not, but merely a reaction test for Ecto who has recent experience with that scumtell

, and for others by quickly changing it).

Ecto's jump is noted. He is in the ongoing game in which scum was lynched D1 for "pretending" not to have seen a second page.

Him not mirroring my

read

and keeping his vote on Iron Man is suspicious.

You said your read. A read means you genuinely think someone is suspcious, yet, you just said I am misrepresenting your Iron Man vote and that it wasn't genuine. You just contradicted yourself.

^If these are the questions you want me to answer than they are weak questions, as my vote is no longer on Iron Man.

1) What purpose does a town serve in calling a question "weak" - WEAK is the type of adjective Mafia would use in order to discount a person that mafia wants attacked.

2) My question doesn't have to do with who you are currently voting. My question has to do with the fact that, when one is playing as town they vote people they are suspcious of and have reasoning. When one is playing as mafia, they contrieve reasonings to vote players, but they aren't genuine in their accusations.

Also scum could potentially gain from pretending not to read a page (as I said a scum was caught this way in another game) by appearing "careless" like a townie. Also I'm not going to answer what town would gain for not pretending because town

wouldn't

pretend, that's my whole point.

Once again, you are describing your reasons for voting Iron Man as if it was a legitimate reason, yet you said you weren't being genuine in voting Iron Man.

You are contradicting yourself by saying A) You weren't genuinely voting Iron Man and B) Giving reasons for why you genuinely voted Iron Man.

[Simenon]

I don't like Cuet's or Iron Man's method of kicking off the game. Blackberry's post was an excellent game starter, these two commented about RVS and its usefulness, but neither actually tried to apply that to this game. ie, No Scum Hunting. Cuet's is the worse of the two because he actually says that Scum slips occur in the RVS, but apparently doesn't consider applying it to the game?

I don't think your framing this right. I think on the third post of a game, a player is entitled to both agree that the RVS is useful and not immediately begin analysis (although given your lengthy first post your might disagree with this).
That being said, Cuet is flailing badly.

Since when was a conservative play-style a scumtell?

I think it's a pretty reliable scum tell.

By this logic, a confident, self-righteous fool has a less chance of being scum than a mildly cautious player.

Indeed.

IMO, at this point in the game, there aren't many convictions to stick to.

Townies are more selective when there is less information. They have an interest in focusing the town, picking up on the small tells dropped inadvertently in the early stages of the game.
Scum, on the other hand, want to throw shit around and see if it sticks. They'll have less discernment, so long as they can press

something

.
By setting conditions on your own views, you enable yourself to see if your argument will take hold before you indicate your own involvement. That's the problem.

[Ectomancer]

I don't like Cuet's or Iron Man's method of kicking off the game. Blackberry's post was an excellent game starter, these two commented about RVS and its usefulness, but neither actually tried to apply that to this game. ie, No Scum Hunting. Cuet's is the worse of the two because he actually says that Scum slips occur in the RVS, but apparently doesn't consider applying it to the game?

I don't think your framing this right. I think on the third post of a game, a player is entitled to both agree that the RVS is useful and not immediately begin analysis (although given your lengthy first post your might disagree with this).
That being said, Cuet is flailing badly.

Since when was a conservative play-style a scumtell?

I think it's a pretty reliable scum tell.

So you're saying chill, not everybody comes out the gates ready to go?

I feel that your second paragraph, in response to Iron Man, could certainly be given as a response to why I singled those two out, so I am a bit confused because it almost seems you agree with me, but don't because of the timing? Yet, in the end, for Iron Man we basically agree for the same reason, just I got there sooner. We just seem to have chosen a different one of the pair to have our vote upon. Had Cuet posted sooner and with less furor? Emotion a town tell? Sometimes.

[Korts]

Will post something tomorrow, had an urgent translation gig pop up which will be occupying my time and draining my mental resources for another day.

[Cuetlachtli]

I don't think your framing this right. I think on the third post of a game, a player is entitled to both agree that the RVS is useful and not immediately begin analysis (although given your lengthy first post your might disagree with this).

That being said, Cuet is flailing badly

.

Define flailing and elaborate on why you think I am doing it.

BTW...your quote kinda reminds me of this excerpt from

Curb Your Enthusiasm

:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhyGlGgX ... re=related

[eljcko]

I told Johoohno earlier but i will not be here for a week with limited internet access. I will be back Aug. 1st.

That said, I am very happy with my vote on thief right now. His constant reference to the previous game for justification of his vote on Iron Man isn't sound logic at all, there were different players, setup, circumstances and the list goes on and on. The variables present don't make it a sound precedent at all. It seems more like he was hopping on the bandwagon of one of the more unpopular players at the moment (Thief's vote made Iron Man's vote count 4 at the time).

Then he decides to put his vote on Blackberry:

There is plenty of other cases on him right now, and his play before my vote has been discussed

I took that from Post #80. Again, this shows blatant bandwagoning of one of the more suspected and controversial players in the game. The validity of these arguments set against BB set aside, (I dont quite know what to think of blackberry at this point, I'm leaning town though) It's very easy to say "I agree with x" and then place a vote accordingly. It keeps the original people that were arguing culpable for making those arguments should he be announced as town, and keeps him out of the fray and dirty work that could make him a target of anykind, keeping you safe from lynch's, nightkills, and investigations (aka: an ideal game as scum).

Thief is bandwagon hopping and dressing it up as fishing for scum. His vote hopping is being justified by the exact same reasoning that scotmany12 used for not explaining a vote earlier. I'm not buying it, your attacks and defense just have too many holes

[eljcko]

P.S: I just saw Inception, and it was mind blowing

[Blackberry]

I'm not buying it, your attacks and defense just have too many holes

Agreed.

P.S: I just saw Inception, and it was mind blowing

Agreed.

I don't understand why more people don't see Theif's contradictions, aka commenting on it and questioning him for it. O_o

Agreed.

[ChannelDelibird]

Prod received, just in the process of writing catchup post now.

[ChannelDelibird]

Notice: in the interests of having fun while playing mafia, I'm adopting a loosely-defined policy of not reading wall-of-text posts.

Anyway, some thoughts on what's been going on:

Blackberry's 1/#4 - "if you find me being anti-random voting unusual, please discuss" looks like poorly executed but well intentioned attempt to start early discussion to me
mothrax 1/#5 - scummy post. town should have finished that post with a random vote
mothrax 1/#14 - explanation "RVS generally necessary but I didn't feel like making first vote" doesn't make any sense from town perspective
Blackberry 2/#37 - "My post does not say "if I weren't town, those posts would be scummy" it says, if I weren't ME and I didn't know my own alignment, that post would be summy." agree with Simenon, this still doesn't make any sense to bring up as town
Thief 2/#45 - sticks out as passing no real comment on the two pages before it
Thief 2/#48 - next is to unvote, vote iron man "i don't believe in accidents" I am not impressed.
Iron Man 3/#66 - "And you're starting to look more and more worthy of my vote unless you can properly and promptly explain yourself." re:Thief, looks like scum not wanting to vote for his buddy
tumescence 4/#77 - strong townread on mothrax for saying "if by some weird chance he flips scum" ...needs explanation, because that quote suggests null-newb or possibly slight-scum read to me

Vote: mothrax

- I didn't like some of his earlier posts and he seems to have withdrawn a bit since others started to receive more of the pressure.

[mothrax]

Owie, I got hit with the prodding stick.
Some things learned: even if I don't like a common aspect of play, don't mention it. This is the second game people have used that against me.
Also, watch your words, people who want you lynched will twist them ("don't really like" becomes "hate")
I will post with real content once I get to a computer.

[ChannelDelibird]

mothrax - you said you didn't like random voting, but that it was generally necessary. That sentiment suggests that as town, the right thing for you to do was to ignore your personal dislike for it and random vote anyway. The fact that you didn't follow that sentiment to me suggests that you're not town.

[mothrax]

You should have participated more, but I figured you were probably limited in that capacity by your noobness, but then you go and say you've played other places before and they have no RVS.

I should have participated more in the 8 hours that this game had been open at that point? Ok, next time a game opens at midnight and I have to work the next day, I just won't sleep.

Now, if you want to see what a scumtell callout should look like,

and

Now I voted and made an honest wagon of the thing, and so what you should be asking is how serious is Ecto? Do I believe in this one or am I just kicking off the first wagon? Do you find it a likely scum move by Iron Man?
Mothrax, you know what over-defensive is? It's getting huffed up that someone is "targeting you" despite the fact that in that same post he made an actual case on two different people and voted one of them and commented on every other previous poster in addition to yourself.

Discounting my playstyle, not with logical attacks, which I would be fine with, but rather with jerkish "This is how you should do things" and other snide comments about me.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3&start=62
Here Ecto does more of the same, discounting other peoples playing while not really proposing much of his own. Considering that Cues post was early in the game, and ecto seems to be so much of an RVS supporter, he doesn't seem to understand the concept of random. He jumped on the Iron Man bandwagon without wanting to do the work. The way I read that is he got pissed when those before him didn't do the work so after a brief ride on the thief wagon, he attacks Cuetlachtli
Cuets vote was the third in the game. Yes he mentions scum can slip up in the RVS, but the RVS generally doesn't end after three votes... The way people use the RVS is by analyzing wagons, reactions to wagons, and reactions to votes.
If scum like to talk to be talking I think you are blowing steam out of your rear...
UNVOTE: ;VOTE: Ectomancer

mothrax - you said you didn't like random voting, but that it was generally necessary. That sentiment suggests that as town, the right thing for you to do was to ignore your personal dislike for it and random vote anyway. The fact that you didn't follow that sentiment to me suggests that you're not town.

I was the second post. I had already stated I didn't really like it, as had someone else. I wanted to see where this was going before I started something that was likely to be debated. I thought that Blackberry's "discuss" might have led to some insightful discussion, and so I wanted the focus to be on that, not on a random vote that I threw out there to be silly.

[Simenon]

So you're saying chill, not everybody comes out the gates ready to go?

I'm saying nobody should be expected to.
As for my views on Iron Man, I don't see the connection.

Define flailing and elaborate on why you think I am doing it.

Flailing: defending yourself with disproportionate emotion and verbiage. Statements like "OMG your Crap-Logic is nauseating" and your repeated use of "unfair" seem desperate. That post is too long.

[scotmany12]

Busy today, lot's of wall of texts, hopefully get something up by tonight.

[tumescence]

Thief and Cuetlachli asked me to explain my townread on mothrax; here it is:
mothrax being afraid of defending a possible scum is really a

null tell

. The

towntell

lies in mothrax's phrasing and his genuine profession of ignorance. To quote, mothrax said

especially if by some weird chance he flips scum.

This doesn't strike me as premeditated; it really convinces me that mothrax is unaware of BB's alignment.

[tumescence]

EDIT: Thief and ChannelDelibird asked me to explain...
I feel like such an idiot for making edits for all my posts.

[Ectomancer]

Discounting my playstyle, not with logical attacks, which I would be fine with, but rather with jerkish "This is how you should do things" and other snide comments about me.

No dumbass, its "this is how an attack would look like", not "this is how YOU should do things". You don't come from this site, so what else do you expect other than a "this is how its done here" because you clearly don't mean the same damn thing as I do when you say "scumtell", get it?